#indiewebcamp 2014-09-30

2014-09-30 UTC
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bret
i need to fix the css on my site
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@t
braindumped "vouch" #webmention #antispam protocol extension: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-28#t1411927207068 thoughts? http:///irc/2014-09-29 (ttk.me t4YN1)
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tantek
alright - let's see how the twitters respond to "vouch"
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@benwerd
RT @t: braindumped "vouch" #webmention #antispam protocol extension: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-28#t1411927207068 thoughts? http:///irc/2014-09-29 (ttk.me t4YN1)
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@bear
RT @t: braindumped "vouch" #webmention #antispam protocol extension: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-28#t1411927207068 thoughts? http:///irc/2014-09-29 (ttk.me t4YN1)
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@BillSeitz
RT @krynsky: Forget Ello. We need to support #indieweb friendly apps that are open source, de-centralized & can be self-hosted like @withkn
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@BillSeitz
RT @kevinmarks: @krynsky @withknown is lovely, but @ello adopting #indieweb protocols and principles would be great too.
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: twitter's API docs do seem to have changed, is that what you were refering to yesterday?
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gRegor`
takes back the karma he gave KartikPrabhu ;)
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gRegor`
GWG: wp_insert_post has been around since 1.0, so I think it's pretty stable and future updates will be made in a backwards-compatible way.
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GWG
gRegor`: I agree
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GWG
gRegor`: I just hate to roll my own interface when there is one already, but considering the new API doesn't yet have taxonomy support, which I need, I may put into place my thoughts on endpoints...
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gRegor`
I wasn't suggesting your own interface
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gRegor`
I thought that was the point of micropub; you could use Quill or any other micropub writer
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GWG
gRegor`: Micropub would be implementing an API
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yes
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KartikPrabhu
gRegor`: noooooooooooooo
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gRegor`
Haha
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kylewm
"This site is not associated with Darth Vader"
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erlehmann
xss”®xss
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erlehmann
._.
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erlehmann
'';!--"<XSS>=&{()}
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gRegor`
Heh
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gRegor`
I had not thought of XSS in the chat logs
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erlehmann
gRegor` why not?
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erlehmann
'';!--"<XSS>=&{()}
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erlehmann
gRegor` how do i get an icon in the chatlogs?
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@eraycakir
RT @t: braindumped "vouch" #webmention #antispam protocol extension: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-28#t1411927207068 thoughts? http:///irc/2014-09-29 (ttk.me t4YN1)
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KartikPrabhu
even w3c talks are in PDFs!
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aaronpk_
erlehmann: add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people and add a link to your icon URL
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erlehmann
.
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aaronpk_
it might take 5min for the cache to catch up
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shaners
tantek_ Homesteading is the name of the software that runs my site.
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Loqi
shaners: tantek left you a message 10 hours, 9 minutes ago: what is the name of the software you use to run your site?
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shaners
Cool story, Loqi.
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Loqi
who, me?
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shaners
Yes, you.
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shaners
tantek_ tantek___ Who is using just Apache with no cms / generator to serve their site?
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shaners
!tell tantek Homesteading is the name of the software that runs my site.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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shaners
!tell tantek Who is using just Apache with no cms / generator to serve their site?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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iamshane.com
edited /database-antipattern (-24) "/* community split */"
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iamshane.com
edited /PostgreSQL (+87) "/* Shane Becker */"
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iamshane.com
edited /PostgreSQL (+1) "/* Seconday Data Storage */"
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KartikPrabhu
shaners: if Homesteading is running on your website, it counts as a current project I think
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shaners
Well... it's more of proto-homesteading. (I was still catching up on the logs.)
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shaners
tantek is right in that what is on github at /homesteading isn't powering iamshane.com quite yet.
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KartikPrabhu
I see fair enough... just to note that my project /Bundle uns only on one website and its even open sourced yet :)
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shaners
it's the 2.0 rebuild/cleanup from my years of duct tape and bailing wire pile of code that's powering iamshane.com right now.
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KartikPrabhu
same with Bundle. It isn't organised well enough to even be alpha-open-source :P
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KartikPrabhu
I am sure you are well ahead of me
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shaners
KartikPrabhu there's no way that i could open source iamshane.com to anyone in any useful way, but it's important to me to open source software. thus, the rebuild / cleanup.
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aaronpk_
what is tanteking?
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Loqi
Tantek-ing refers to a method of encouraging people to make edits to this wiki http://indiewebcamp.com/tanteking
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@leolaporte
@dcdevito it's called Known http://t.co/dmajWyMfW3. Part of the indieweb movement. I'm using it at http://t.co/3TAtNCiVFN.
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@anomalily
@veganstraightedge @t This is the best edit to the #indiewebcamp wiki ever.
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aaronpk_
gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi
gRegornobacktick has 20 karma
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@evansolomon
@kevinmarks @nicksantos the experience is actually rather simple, acting as an auth-free proxy server is super dangerous to web neighbors
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kylewm
it seems important though
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yeah don't get it
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npdoty
kylewm, KartikPrabhu - I think the attack is:
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npdoty
the attacker sends a pingback notification (or webmention notification) to your site
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npdoty
and says that the source is victim.com
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npdoty
then your site, to verify the pingback/webmention and avoid spam, checks victim.com to make sure it has an actual link to your site
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npdoty
it doesn't, but in the process of checking it, you've loaded victim.com. and if enough people do that at once... ddoss
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cr
[NetBehaviour] ello ello, what av we here then,an exclusive club for the digerati ? http://www.netbehaviour.org/pipermail/netbehaviour/20140930/032842.html
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KartikPrabhu
npdoty: that is the DDOS vesion yes
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npdoty
I think it does apply to the webmention case as well
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KartikPrabhu
yes it does
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npdoty
anyone who advertises support webmentions, and does the recommended check to prevent webmention spam, could be used to request/attack another site
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KartikPrabhu
yes it could
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KartikPrabhu
npdoty: does the time dependent endpoint help?
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npdoty
KartikPrabhu, what do you mean?
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npdoty
I'm not sure the expiring endpoint makes a difference
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kylewm
"acting as a auth-free proxy server" sounds a little more nefarious than sending a GET on someone else's behalf
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npdoty
the attacker can in real time access your site, check the link header to get the webmention endpoint, and then use it
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KartikPrabhu
but to DDOS the victim the attacker has to do that to as many attacks they're setting up
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npdoty
right, but I think it only doubles the number of requests they have to make
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npdoty
the real advantage of the attack is that you're getting the requests to come from so many different IP addresses, not that each machine in the botnet is making lots of requests
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KartikPrabhu
but they have to setup a botnet that each uses the diff. IPs no?
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npdoty
I think in this attack they can use a single IP address. with that IP address, they can contact each of our indieweb servers with webmention endpoints
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npdoty
each of our servers sees only one request from that IP address
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npdoty
and then follows the webmention to the victim site
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KartikPrabhu
then that IP addess is logged no?
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npdoty
and the victim site sees the traffic coming from different IP addresses
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kylewm
what they could do with the expiring endpoint, is gather up 100 sites, and send them each 100 webmentions
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kylewm
still an amplification
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npdoty
I don't think the attacker is counting on an amplification of requests, it's just using our sites as a way to diversify the IP addresses
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KartikPrabhu
and what about combined with async procesing of webmentions?
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kylewm
async processing of webmentions might actually help the attacker
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kylewm
since they get a response quickly
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npdoty
slowing down the checking of the webmentions might help, but if the attack is large and sustained enough, then having the traffic spread out may not make a difference
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kylewm
and can queue up a bunch of them
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: no async pocessing by the intermediaries
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KartikPrabhu
npdoty: well then it seems there is no way to do real-time distributed notifications then
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: if intermediaries == the unsuspecting sites that receive the webmentions, then that's what i mean
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npdoty
maybe we could treat it as explicit forwarding
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npdoty
tell the victim site, we're checking whether you made a webmention, and oh, by the way, this is the IP address that told us
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npdoty
and when the victim sees a gajillion requests all forwarded from the same IP address
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npdoty
it can start ignoring requests with that header
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KartikPrabhu
well that counts as a POST request which could be used to attack too
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npdoty
the server would still receive the same number of POST requests
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npdoty
but it would be able to separate out the good from the bad, when it saw that so many of them had the same originating IP address
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npdoty
such that the attacker would no longer be effectively distributing his single ip address into many IP addresses
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npdoty
... at which point, he would use a different kind of attack
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KartikPrabhu
and how does that help after many requests have been made aleady?
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npdoty
victim.com already has some abuse features in place, rate-limiting by IP address
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npdoty
and it can rate-limit by X-Forwarded-For IP address too
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KartikPrabhu
again after the IP has made a bunch of requests already
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kylewm
you could probably tell pretty quick
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kylewm
start throttling if you see even 5 in a row
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npdoty
you could tell roughly as quickly as you can tell with any single IP address that seems to be DOSing, it just wouldn't be distributed any more
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@npdoty
@evansolomon @kevinmarks @nicksantos what if the pingback/webmention servers sent an X-Forwarded-For header with the originating IP address?
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npdoty
how did Loqi see that? does it just search for any mention of "webmention"?
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Loqi
dude
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KartikPrabhu
npdoty: yeah Loqi looks for a few keywords
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kylewm
!tell shaners with your Settings table in Homesteading, how do you switch between localhost and production?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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bret.io
edited /GitPub (+489) "Expanded gitpub's wiki page"
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npdoty.name
edited /DDOS (+1166) "/* How to avoid */ suggestion: X-Forwarded-For"
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npdoty
I think that might really be the effective fix needed
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npdoty
but then again, maybe it's late and I'm not thinking super clearly and someone has already considered this and ruled it out for some reason
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bret.io
edited /Jekyll (-37) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Listified a list of users"
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bret.io
edited /Jekyll (-24) "Updated jekyll a bit"
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bret
interesting idea npdoty
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bret.io
edited /Jekyll (+68) "/* Pros */ Added link to gh-pages and S3"
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npdoty
it looks like WordPress actually did implement (in response to a plugin that did it) a separate X-Pingback-Forwarded-For header
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npdoty
because why use a commonly-used non-standard header when you can use an uncommon variation of a non-standard header? ;)
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KevinMarks_
Does Mozilla or chrome publish stats on typing urls versus search terms?
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npdoty.name
edited /DDOS (+240) "/* Forward originating IP address */ x-pingback-forwarded-for"
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KartikPrabhu
I type in URLs all the time... well not in search boxes
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npdoty
and filed an issue on the webmention spec repo
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KartikPrabhu
npdoty++ for adding suggestions :)
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Loqi
npdoty has 6 karma
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@OnTheWebz
RT @t: braindumped "vouch" #webmention #antispam protocol extension: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-28#t1411927207068 thoughts? http:///irc/2014-09-29 (ttk.me t4YN1)
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voxpelli
Regarding WebMention and leveraging it to DDoS sites, apparently Medium has blocked requests from WordPress due to such attacks leveraging Pingback: https://medium.com/medium-eng/it-takes-a-village-to-read-an-rss-feed-84e63a3c9094
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voxpelli
And now I see it might have already been discussed here, sorry
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KartikPrabhu
voxpelli: yes it was mentioned by KevinMarks_ would be good to solve this to have better distributed comments
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voxpelli
My "solution" currently is to severely limit the number of source lookups per minute/hour I do on a host
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voxpelli
Such measures are probably the only possible ones, at least that I can think of
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voxpelli
KartikPrabhu: Know if any other measures?
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voxpelli
X-forwarded-for sounds interesting
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voxpelli
KartikPrabhu: Yeah, thanks, should update my endpoint with some more such protection
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KartikPrabhu
voxpelli: fwiw: i don't think webmention is popular enough yet for these
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voxpelli
KartikPrabhu: Me neither, but Pingback probably at one time wasn't either ;)
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voxpelli
DDoS and such is a hard problem in that one would rather not dogfeed it but rather fix it beforehand :P
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KevinMarks
Activity Streams on the slope of enlightenment : https://twitter.com/EsthervanLuit/status/516852873796538368
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@EsthervanLuit
For those who haven't seen it yet (& it's a must-see), check out Gartner's 2014 Hype Cycle for Emerging Technologies! https://twitter.com/EsthervanLuit/status/516852873796538368/photo/1
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@xtof_fr
Presque compatible Indieweb (Nicolas Cluzeau 29/09/2014) @nicolascluz : bravo et bienvenue sur #indieweb ! Vous .. http://xtof.withknown.com/2014/presque-compatible-indieweb-nicolas-cluzeau-29092014-nicolascluz-bravo-et-bienvenue
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@thorgnyr
#Indieweb. Please discuss.
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@adrianshort
@thorgnyr If you've got your own website then you're doing it. You don't need an invite. #indieweb
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@thorgnyr
@adrianshort Yes, I'm aware. Let me be more precise. IndieWeb #POSSE. please discuss.
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cweiske
"please discuss"
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@thorgnyr
@adrianshort My concern is mainly holding ownership over the material being syndicated to social media. Does #indieweb solva that for me?
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@acegiak
I want to work out how to do this in a #indieweb way but I feel like h-review is weirdly - http://acegiak.net/2014/09/30/5478/
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annevk
tantek_: tantek___: https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ and pretty much every other spec I write has this license boilerplate
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annevk
tantek_: tantek___: as well as OWFA something
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annevk
tantek_: tantek___: the letter per your suggestion
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annevk
tantek_: tantek___: however, the link for the latter is broken, how can I fix it?
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annevk
tantek_: tantek___: also, I was thinking of making the license more visible, by having a "License:" field similar to "This version:"
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GWG
Hi, ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme
hey, GWG, hows it going?
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annevk
ben_thatmustbeme: your nick is one character too long for my client for some reason
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ben_thatmustbeme
i break stuff
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ben_thatmustbeme
i don't believe you can have any more than that'
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alanpearce_
ben_thatm<script>
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ben_thatmustbeme
of course there are 3 of me logged on
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ben_thatmustbeme
one of them is dead, web client sometimes seems to leave the connection open
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: Lots to do, as always.
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, same here. I am up really early now though thanks to my wife having to be up early, so I get to work like an hour early and just work on my site
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GWG
I have to run errands in a bit.
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GWG
But, was looking at trying something different for my site when I have time to devote to it
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh yeah? cool
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annevk
ben_thatmustbeme: your home page has mixed content
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, i know, the known image and indieauth logos
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: Since the API I wanted to use isn't finished yet, I was going to go with a simple page template for notes.
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@adonaldson
I'd much rather have http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE than Ello I think
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ben_thatmustbeme
annevk, fixed
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ben_thatmustbeme
well... ugh... fixed, but broken
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ben_thatmustbeme
there we got
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: there we go
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cuibonobo
good morning!
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ben_thatmustbeme
good morning cuibonobo!
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cuibonobo
do any of y'all know why Google's date range search breaks for indie web camp irc logs?
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petermolnar
example pls.
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cuibonobo
if i were to do a search for `webmentions site:indiewebcamp.com/irc` and then under Google's 'Search Tools' adjust the search from 'Any Time' to 'Past year', i get *much* fewer results than expected
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petermolnar
I have no idea
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cuibonobo
i care about this because this channel tends to be a much higher bandwidth than i can hope to keep up with, but i would still like to somehow keep track of topics that interest me
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cr
what HTTP header should server add. Last-Modified?
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cr
donno why so many servers return Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 13:49:47 GMT - always
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cr
"now" time instead of date of the doc last-modification
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alanpearce
Well that's the Date header.
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alanpearce
Last-Modified is for last modification date :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes, excellent.
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ben_thatmustbeme
could someone log in to ben.thatmustbe.me with indieauth and tell me if "Recent Drafts" appears on top of the right column?
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cweiske
ben_thatmustbeme, why does your indieauth client want me to do authorization instead of simple authentication?
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cweiske
you use response_type=code instead of response_type=id
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ben_thatmustbeme
ummm, not sure
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ben_thatmustbeme
did that a while back
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ben_thatmustbeme
let me fix that
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ben_thatmustbeme
it only needs code if it is going to log in to your site basically right?
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cweiske
response_type=code is for micropub clients
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ben_thatmustbeme
or if i needed post permissions
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ben_thatmustbeme
i have a micropub client, but it makes you log in again if you want to use that
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ben_thatmustbeme
cweiske, try now
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cweiske
you don't normalize the URL I put into the url box
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cweiske
Given identity URL "http://cweiske.de" and claimed OpenID "http://cweiske.de/" do not match
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cweiske
trailing slash
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cweiske
ok, logged in now
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ben_thatmustbeme
you just like breaking stuff don't you?
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cweiske
err. should I see the login form again after login?
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cweiske
then login did not work
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ben_thatmustbeme
huh, interesting. yeah, i added the / to mine and it breaks
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ben_thatmustbeme
you just like breaking my site don't you
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cweiske
i'm using my indieauth-openid proxy
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cweiske
do you have any logging when logins fail?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i don't have much. I need to add some more. but I think i know where the problem is
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ben_thatmustbeme
i added some extra bits to try and see if login would work with open_id at some point
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annevk
tantek_: tantek___: the redirect to some Google-operated domain is not reassuring
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annevk
tantek_: tantek___: I'm inclined to simply drop that
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: I don't see Recent Drafts when logged in
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ben_thatmustbeme
its limited only to me
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cweiske
now you remove the trailing slash?
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ben_thatmustbeme
just pushed that
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cweiske
I can't continue because Given identity URL "http://cweiske.de" and claimed OpenID "http://cweiske.de/" do not match
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ben_thatmustbeme
so is trailing slash a required standard?
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cweiske
i'm checking. RFC 1738 does not require it
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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cweiske
httpurl = "http://" hostport [ "/" hpath [ "?" search ]]
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cweiske
fpath = fsegment *[ "/" fsegment ]
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cweiske
so having a / without a futher path is ok
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ben_thatmustbeme
cweiske, indeed, but there needs to be some semblance of sanity there, you could trail with //////// and its valid, I'm willing to always have a trailing slash if its really a problem
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'll just normalize to always have a single trailing slash
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cweiske
let me check rfc 3986
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cweiske
indieauth-openid should do the normalization internally and decide that the urls are equivalient
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cweiske
and let the check pass
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cweiske
In general, a URI that uses the generic syntax for authority with an
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cweiske
empty path should be normalized to a path of "/".
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cweiske
question is if you should normalize the url you get or not
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annevk
ben_thatmustbeme: for HTTP URLs, yes
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annevk
ben_thatmustbeme: note that browsers implement https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ which does this correctly
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annevk
(or implement that to some approximation)
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ben_thatmustbeme
currently i normalize everything to take out the /
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cweiske
ok, then your normalization doesn't follow rfc 3986 :)
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cr
user identity should be doc-fragment ideally, https://cweiske.de/#me
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cweiske
don't begin with #me
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cweiske
I won't do it
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cweiske
ben_thatmustbeme, if you follow https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#writing you'll also get a / after the host
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cweiske
"An absolute-path-relative URL must be "/", followed by a path-relative URL that does not start with "/"."
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barnabywalters
cr: why should someone’s identity be a document fragment?
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cweiske
that's the semantic web's view
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barnabywalters
cweiske: I know, I’m asking for the reasoning behind it
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barnabywalters
my identity online is a domain, not an HTML element with an id
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barnabywalters
cr: what tangible benefits does typing the document fragment give to users when they’re using their URL to log in somewhere?
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ben_thatmustbeme
actually i don't see any way that forces a /
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ben_thatmustbeme
An absolute URL must be a scheme, followed by ":", followed by either a scheme-relative URL, if scheme is a relative scheme, or scheme data otherwise, optionally followed by "?" and a query.
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ben_thatmustbeme
A scheme-relative URL must be "//", optionally followed by userinfo and "@", followed by a host, optionally followed by ":" and a port, optionally followed by an absolute-path-relative URL.
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ben_thatmustbeme
absolute-path-relative is optional
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cr
barnabywalters: beacuse you get nameclashes with the doc and things defined in the doc otherwise
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cr
doesnt matter. if you want to use webID tools, you'll give in and do proper web-architecture
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ShaneHudson
As anyone got a way of POSSEing G+? I know there are no APIs, but should be a way of doing it
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ben_thatmustbeme
i heard that there was some app that had some weird way of doing it
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shaners
another site death: Orkut (Google's original social network) http://orkut.google.com/en.html
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Loqi
shaners: kylewm left you a message 9 hours, 37 minutes ago: with your Settings table in Homesteading, how do you switch between localhost and production?
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barnabywalters
cr: the representative h-card algorithm removes nameclashes, allowing domain -> profile mapping without the need for extra confusing URL syntax
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barnabywalters
cr: what’s your webID?
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ShaneHudson
shaners: That's surprising, I thought Orkut at quite a large Asian userbase
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shaners
I thought it was mostly in Brazil.
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barnabywalters
Shanehudson: shaners: I’d heard that too, about south america
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shaners
kylewm: how do I switch what between localhost and production?
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ShaneHudson
Ah could have been Brazil, my memory is awful
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cr
barnabywalters: 'extra confusing URL syntax' = using a doc URI without a fragID for the thing it defines.
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ShaneHudson
Has anyone had experience with squarespace? I presume it can't be used for indieweb?
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ben_thatmustbeme
huh, indieauth returns me no result if i use WITH a trailing slash indieauth fails
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ben_thatmustbeme
i tried to just put it back, i use whatever i'm given, trailing slash or no
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ben_thatmustbeme
i add http:// if neither http:// nor https:// is put on it
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ben_thatmustbeme
when i do that i get a code back, but the call to auth_endpoint returns an empty array
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barnabywalters
cr: look at the use of URLs in public spaces (e.g. advertising). It’s typically a domain, maybe with a single path segment. Never a fragment identifier
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cr
we're talking about identifying users now. not websites
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cr
or documents
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barnabywalters
cr: we’re talking about URLs, and how people relate to them
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barnabywalters
actual, real people, who have no idea what a “fragment identifier” is or why they should care about pseudo-philosophical webarch reasons for it’s existance
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cweiske
ben_thatmust, now I get no errors, but am also not logged into your site
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cweiske
gotta run
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cr
actual real people will get their URI minted for them and not have to know.
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, it does the same to me cweiske, same thing, call to auth endpoint returned nothing
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cr
you're making a lot of simple, trivial, indie tools harder if you decid you're going to have nameclashes everywhere
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barnabywalters
cr: what is “minting” a URL?
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barnabywalters
cr: where are these simple, trivial indie tools we’re “making harder”?
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cr
it's not pseudo-philosophical. once youve loaded your doc, the local identifiers start after the #
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barnabywalters
cr: what’s your webid? what tools do you use with it?
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cr
i manage my 'cloud storage' with https://github.com/deiu/warp
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cr
can also test if it works by logging into http://cimba.co/
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barnabywalters
cr: what does the script at http://whats-your.name/anonymous.sh.html do? if I want to make a webID with it, how do I do that?
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gRegor`
!tell ShaneHudson I don't have experience with Squarespace, but my understanding is you have full control of the HTML, so you could use it for indieweb. Webmention would be tricky, of course. Unless we encouraged them to add support for it. :)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor`
What is Squarespace?
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Loqi
Squarespace is a content hosting service (paid) that provides services such as blogging and domain hosting http://indiewebcamp.com/Squarespace
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barnabywalters
at the very least squarespace gives you enough control to use a squarespace site as your indieauth domain
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gRegor`
What is webID?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "webID" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=webID
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annevk
ben_thatmustbeme: if your identity is a domain, you should not take a URL... but then the protocol requires a URL...
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ben_thatmustbeme
huh... interesting
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ben_thatmustbeme
found the issue i'm ahving
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ben_thatmustbeme
if i give with a trailing slash to indie_auth, when it hits the callback it does not have one
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ben_thatmustbeme
which i was normalizing before testing
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ben_thatmustbeme
the state value is based on the me value
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ben_thatmustbeme
its which i generated before normalizing
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ben_thatmustbeme
cweiske try now
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ben_thatmustbeme
i have some instrumentation of what i'm getting back
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gRegor`
cweiske had to run
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cr
<a class="u-url url fn" href="http://waterpigs.co.uk" rel="me">
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cr
apparently barnaby is a website?
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ben_thatmustbeme
ack, oh well
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ben_thatmustbeme
okay, well then, on to other bits, yes, barnaby is a website, so am I
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gRegor`
The full name of the person is what's inside the link (Barnaby). And his URL is http://waterpigs.co.uk, is what that microformat indicates
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ben_thatmustbeme
didn't show what was in the text of it
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gRegor`
Yeah, but just guessing
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ben_thatmustbeme
and i don't think thats what it means anywa
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ben_thatmustbeme
first off, if i understand things correctly, rel= isn't microformats markup, the microformats there just says its a url (me being pedantic)
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ben_thatmustbeme
XFN 1.1 introduced the "me" rel value which is used to indicate profile equivalence and for identity-consolidation.
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ben_thatmustbeme
it says nothing about a person being that thing, just that that link contains and equivalent profile
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gRegor`
I was only parsing the mf, not mentioning the rel
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ben_thatmustbeme
ohhh, i missed the fn
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ben_thatmustbeme
i stand corrected
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ben_thatmustbeme
although i don't think there is a problem with that
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ben_thatmustbeme
url tag just means the href value is a link to the homepage
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ben_thatmustbeme
http://microformats.org/wiki/hCard Examples section, tantek has that very markup
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ben_thatmustbeme
!tell cweiske try logging in again to my site. I have some instrumentation now and have fixed an few small errors. might help
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor`
Yeah, I'm not sure if cr was raising a problem with that h-card or?
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tantek_otp
I read the logs and I really have no idea what cr was talking about in 90% of the statements.
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Loqi
tantek_otp: shaners left you a message 12 hours, 15 minutes ago: Homesteading is the name of the software that runs my site.
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Loqi
tantek_otp: shaners left you a message 12 hours, 15 minutes ago: Who is using just Apache with no cms / generator to serve their site?
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tantek_otp
lol
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shaners
what is otp?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "otp" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=otp
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Loqi
hehe
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tantek_otp
shaners, check out /file-storage - a few folks there "just" serving static files via apache
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ben_thatmustbeme
on the ... plane?
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tantek_otp
otp = on the phone
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shaners
ah. gotcha.
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tantek_otp
pre-socialwg prep call :/
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cuibonobo
in atlanta, otp == "outside the perimeter"
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cuibonobo
a.k.a. suburbanites :3
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@bgrier
Reading: Using WordPress for IndieWeb | TechLifeWeb http://techlifeweb.com/using-wordpress-for-indieweb/
(twtr.io/rJ0AU8qcHs)
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+7) "another thing off my list"
(view diff)
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reedstrm
opt == one time pad ;-)
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cr
as soon as one wants to cache, annotate, store i a graph-store, how do you know whether you mean https://waterpigs.co.uk/ the person, the web-document, or the website? by dismissing good URI-design as "complicated" you're inadvertently making things complicated
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gRegor`
cr: What URI design are you referring to?
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cr
the rel=me reusing a document/website URI for a person
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cr
how do i disambiguate? i'll rather just not consume microformats data until they stop this silly nameclash
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cr
the alternative is complicate implementations by using tons of named-graphs and annotating the named-graphs with contexts, so you can reuse the URI fore different things. but that's meh. too complicated..
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ben_thatmustbeme
cr, rel=me does not me a person is equivalent to a website
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ben_thatmustbeme
xfn just described it as a link to yourself at a different url
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gRegor`
cr: What is the use-case where you need to disambiguate something? I'm not understanding.
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gRegor`
My personal website represents me online. Why wouldn't I link to it with rel=me?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think its that he is using the body of the <a> tag as the name for the link
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ben_thatmustbeme
so instead of a user Ben and a link labelled "twitter profile" it becomes a link title "Ben" as well
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ben_thatmustbeme
thats what I get out of what he is saying
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gRegor`
ben_thatmustbeme: I'm still not understanding. :)
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snarfed
!tell ShaneHudson re G+ POSSE: http://indiewebcamp.com/Google+#POSSE
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
cr, I think you're talking yourself into making it too complicated.
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davidmead
when using POSSE for a reply, does it have to be a new post, or can it be a reply on the originating post?
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davidmead
i tried using "u-in-reply-to" but it didn’t post back to twitter
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ben_thatmustbeme
davidmead, its a new post, it has to be the h-entry itself with a u-in-reply-to (if i understand what you mean)
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KevinMarks_
URIs are just notation conventions used for databases, but URLs locate resources universally, and are thus useful for humans and computers alike
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davidmead
ben_thatmustbeme, hmm. that’s what i thought. pity.
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ben_thatmustbeme
are you using bridgy?
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ben_thatmustbeme
it makes sense though, honestly, every reply could be replied to. if the only location was in the reply-thread of a post, I would have no way to reply to your comment specifically
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davidmead
ben_thatmustbeme As the originating post is sent to Twitter, brid.gy (or similar) pulls back the replying tweet and displays as a reply to that post, I’d like to reply to that reply in the reply thread
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ben_thatmustbeme
you could reply-to both, that way its processed as a webmention internally to yourself and bridgy would still pick it up as a reply to the other reply
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KevinMarks_
I think cr should stop using English, which is semiotically impure, and communicate only with people who speak lojban
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sparverius
uh i only commute verbally in logo
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sparverius
side benefits include: not being invited to meetings, social events, generally having to interact with people in real life
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davidmead
ben_thatmustbeme I guess. it seems to me that it breaks the conversational thread between the parties
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ben_thatmustbeme
i don't think so, you just are forking converstaions between parties into their own thread
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ben_thatmustbeme
plus, if you parse full reply-context history, you can see the entire conversation
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gRegor`
Each party can show the full context-thread and reply-thread, though
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ben_thatmustbeme
bam, 'context-thread' is catching on
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gRegor`
What is context-thread?
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Loqi
A reply thread (AKA reply chain) is a threaded list of replies, and replies to those replies, displayed under the original post, sometimes as part of a reply-context http://indiewebcamp.com/context-thread
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gRegor`
Hm. That's not what I think of when I say context-thread. :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i redirected it to reply-thread, since the usage had reply-thread all over
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davidmead
well that’s handy :-)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think we should fix that
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gRegor`
I think of it as everything coming before the current note in the thread.
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gRegor`
And reply-chain I think of as everything coming after the current note, in the thread.
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gRegor`
Cool
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gRegor`
wonders about 'thread' vs 'chain'
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ben_thatmustbeme
thread and chain i think are the same thing
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ben_thatmustbeme
reply-chain / reply-thread and context-chain / context-thread
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ben_thatmustbeme
two different bits
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davidmead
ben_thatmustbeme grego` so maybe i’m still visualizing this “wrong” on my blog and need to think of a reply from Twitter like a new post on my site. my reply to it is a new post...
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gRegor`
Ah, I see 'reply-chain' got renamed 'reply-thread'. Sounds good.
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davidmead
the whole blog is not a post with replies attatched to it, but a series of linked replies to each other
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gRegor`
ben_thatmustbeme: Should /context-thread redirect to /reply-context instead?
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ben_thatmustbeme
gRegor` it looks like /reply-context is what set everything astray
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gRegor`
Meaning?
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gRegor`
That page is causing confusion or?
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ben_thatmustbeme
actually not sure where it began. but there is definitely confusion in there
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ben_thatmustbeme
my site is currently the only example of a context thread, but it got listed under reply-thread
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ben_thatmustbeme
which has lots of examples
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gRegor`
You're listed on both because you're displaying both
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ben_thatmustbeme
well yes, but many display reply-thread
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gRegor`
Your "context-thread" is just showing more than one /reply-context.
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gRegor`
and the full contents of those reply-contexts, too.
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ben_thatmustbeme
(i don't mess around :P)
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gRegor`
Since "in reply to [link]" is also a reply-context, many of us have a minimal reply-context
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ben_thatmustbeme
indeed, i had that for some time too
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gRegor`
So we need to get more people to list themselves on reply-thread, sounds like.
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davidmead
ben_thatmustbeme gregor` so the more i look at this the more it seems i have to look at something other than WP
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gRegor`
Gah. Ok, this *is* confusing to me:
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gRegor`
"A reply thread (AKA reply chain) is a threaded list of replies, and replies to those replies, displayed under the original post, sometimes as part of a reply-context."
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ben_thatmustbeme
davidmead, WordPress has a lot going for it, but for indieweb things its a lot of patchwork addons
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gRegor`
"sometimes as part of a reply-context" doesn't make sense to me there.
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gRegor`
But maybe it's just my not understanding the intent of those terms.
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davidmead
ben_thatmustbeme that’s what i’m finding - can’t use some of the tools like ownyorgram as WP doesn’t support micropub
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davidmead
ben_thatmustbeme i like Known but I don’t know if I can import my content into that as a direct replacement
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gRegor`
Yeah, I'm not aware of any WordPress -> Known import tools yet
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /context-thread (+180) "there is a lot of reply-thread / context-thread confusion"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
what is context-thread
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Loqi
A context thread (AKA context chain) is a threaded list of posts, and notes those notes replied to, displayed above the reply post, making up the reply-context http://indiewebcamp.com/context-thread
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/notes/posts
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gRegor`
Hm.
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /context-thread (+0) "s/notes/posts"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
not sure on the wording of that definition, but its a start
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gRegor`
So is reply-context a generic name for a set of replies, that appears either earlier in the conversation, or later in the conversation?
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gRegor`
And we "need" more specific terms for the "earlier" and "later"?
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gRegor`
"context-thread" being the earlier, and "reply-thread" being the later?
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ben_thatmustbeme
that seems to be what i am getting out of it
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm confusing myself
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gRegor`
Haha
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gRegor`
I'm just not sure more terms are necessary
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ben_thatmustbeme
reply-context = before and after
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ben_thatmustbeme
context-thread = before
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ben_thatmustbeme
reply-thread = after
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davidmead
"context-thread" should be the whole thing. "reply-thread" is after the post. you need another term for before the post - the thing(s) that prompted it
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davidmead
the term “reply” doesn’t make sense to me as descripbing something that came before
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ben_thatmustbeme
context-thread i would not put as the whole thing, so we really need any term for the whole thing?
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gRegor`
davidmead: It is a bit confusing, until you thiink of it as "someone else's reply"
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ben_thatmustbeme
it does, because my post is a reply, i want to my my reply in context, so i see the argument
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KevinMarks_
Context doesn't just imply history though
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davidmead
exactly KevinMarks_ to me context is viewing the whole thing
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KevinMarks_
Would history-thread be clearer?
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ben_thatmustbeme
context: noun
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ben_thatmustbeme
the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect: I agree with davidmead & KevinMarks_
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KevinMarks_
The challenge is deciding which path through the chain of replies is the context
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gRegor`
I kinda like history-thread
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KevinMarks_
We see this on twitter all the time, as each of us gets a different subset of the responses
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gRegor`
history-thread and reply-thread make a lot of sense to me; they're pretty self-explanatory
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KevinMarks_
There isn't a globally visible thread, that's part of the value of twitter and the open Web alike
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davidmead
so a “context-thread” is made up of “historical-thread” “post” “reply-thread”?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i've been trying to work that bit out on my site, eventually i want to pull in all replys to my posts, even if they only reply to a reply of mine that has one of my posts in its thread-history
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KevinMarks_
Enforcing bidirectionality is a bug
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bret
What are the major http://indiewebcamp.com/activity_streams implementations involved in indieweb? first thing comes to mind is https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial
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gRegor`
davidmead: That sounds like the understanding of context-thread based on this discussion, yes.
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bret
which is actually pretty significant
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm still not liking "historical-thread"
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gRegor`
I'm not sure I would use the term context-thread myself, though. I don't see a lot of need for it.
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gRegor`
historical-thread instead of history-thread?
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gRegor`
either sgtm
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davidmead
gregor` cool - so you can only have a “historical-thread” on your “post” if it is a reply to something else (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think reply-context is best, but without the h-entry being a reply, it doesn't really make sense
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KevinMarks_
http://epeus.blogspot.com/2004/02/technorati-xanadu-and-other-dreams.html talks about this (if you'll forgive slightly pompous ten year ago me)
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ben_thatmustbeme
how about just 'post context'
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gRegor`
"A historical-thread is a reply-context that happened before the current post."
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KevinMarks_
If you use Historical should you use contextual?
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gRegor`
"A reply-thread is a reply-context (eww, not liking this) that happened after the current post."
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ben_thatmustbeme
exactly why i didn't like 'historical'
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KevinMarks_
History+replies =context
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ben_thatmustbeme
history-thread
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ben_thatmustbeme
KevinMarks_ yes, i think that makes the most sense
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gRegor`
"A history-thread is a type of reply-context that appears before the current post and displays a thread of what the post is in-reply-to"
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davidmead
I’d be happy with “history-thread” :-)
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gRegor`
"A reply-thread is a type of reply-context that appears after the current post and displays a thread of replies to the post."
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davidmead
“historical” was me just being wordy
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ben_thatmustbeme
okay so reply-context = just the one you are in-reply-to
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gRegor`
That was not my thinking, no.
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ben_thatmustbeme
so a history thread is the series of reply-contexts
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ben_thatmustbeme
i sort of like that definition though, we know what people have been doing up til now, showing reply-context
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ben_thatmustbeme
and now we are looking at history-thread
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ben_thatmustbeme
vs displaying reply-thread
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ben_thatmustbeme
all gathered into context-thread
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teknotus
I haven't forgotten. It's just tedius.
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gRegor`
I guess /reply-context does currently imply a single item, "Popular silos (e.g. Twitter) display an entire thread of reply-contexts . . ."
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ben_thatmustbeme
it conforms to what we have been using thus far
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ben_thatmustbeme
i don't want to completely yank definitions out from under everyone
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teknotus
Opps repeated previous message.
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gRegor`
Sure, makes sense
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gRegor`
In my attempts above, "A type of reply-context" could be "A series of reply-contexts" then
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ben_thatmustbeme
and a reply-thread is a series of replies
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gRegor`
Are we sticking with reply-context being a general term, regardless of where it appears in the chronology, though?
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gRegor`
reply-thread *could* be "a series of reply-contexts that appears after the current post..."
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think reply context only refers to backwards, thus reply context is the inverse of reply
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davidmead
i prefer that gregor`
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gRegor`
Hm. This is hurting my brain. :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
definitions++
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Loqi
definitions has 1 karma
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gRegor`
I thought we kinda agreed earlier that reply-context could be before or after
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gRegor`
If it's only backwards, history-thread is kind of redundant, no?
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gRegor`
Other than being a term for multiple reply-contexts, I guess.
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ben_thatmustbeme
there is a context that i would say is the general term for before or after
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gRegor`
Alright, work calls. I will check back later.
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ben_thatmustbeme
but reply-context would be what I am directly replying to
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davidmead
but that could be your originating post couldn’t it?
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davidmead
if you’re replying as a webmention about an post elswhere
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ben_thatmustbeme
if i were replying to the original post, i would do just that
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davidmead
and how do we know how much of a “history-thread” to pull back and display?
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ben_thatmustbeme
davidmead, I go all the way back
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davidmead
just the post you’re replying to, or the post that that’s replying too to
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ben_thatmustbeme
reply-context is 1 level back, it could be multiple entries if you have multiple in-reply-to values
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davidmead
to the way, way back ;-)
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ben_thatmustbeme
the long, long ago
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davidmead
so we’d have a “thread” that is composed of “contexts”
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /reply-context (+7) "clearing up reply-thread confusion"
(view diff)
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davidmead
your post is the orginating object of that thread on your site
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davidmead
maybe if you adopt the ‘long now’ POV, it’s all a historical thread
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davidmead
your post included
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ben_thatmustbeme
i am still stuck on post-context
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ben_thatmustbeme
for the entire collection
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /history-thread (-58) "clearing up reply-thread confusion"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
what is history-thread
#
Loqi
A history-thread is a threaded list of reply-contexts displayed above a reply post as part of the context-thread http://indiewebcamp.com/history-thread
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davidmead
hmm. if you take this http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/context and replace “word or passage” with “post”…
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ben_thatmustbeme
davidmead, feel free to start fixing stuff too.
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davidmead
how do you mean?
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /reply-thread (-207) "definition did not match content"
(view diff)
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anomalily
ahhh nickser
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /history-thread (+484) "some context moved from reply-thread"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
content not context
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /context-thread (+92) "definition"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
well i stubbed them out as i understand them, there are probably more places where the confusion exists. but its a start
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ben_thatmustbeme
we can always correct naming / definition
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gRegor`
For kicks, I might try setting up PESOS from Ello
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gRegor`
It would be fragile, though, just scraping the HTML
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davidmead
ben_thatmustbeme would I just add thoughts in that stub? or create a new one?
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ben_thatmustbeme
go ahead and add them in that stub if it makes sense
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gRegor`
There's a json file for each post, but it's only available if authenticated. Ah well, I probably won't bother. :)
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kylewm
gRegor`: Ello gives you access to json for each post?
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kylewm
sounds suspiciously like an API
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gRegor`
The URL indicates it is an API, actually, although private :)
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gRegor`
<a class='postbar__link postbar__edit' data-dispatch='editPost' href='/api/v1/posts/821143.json' title='Edit Post'>
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gRegor`
https://ello.co/api/v1/posts/821143.json requires authentication though.
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kylewm
interesting, they must be using that to do some ajaxy editor thing
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gRegor`
I could just scrape the <div class='post-content'> from here though: https://ello.co/gregorlove/post/gM3NTujR4h5DIE-WmUiPqQ
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gRegor`
I couludn't expose anything else poking around various /api/v1/ URLs
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KevinMarks_
So there is demand for an ello unmung?
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gRegor`
Not sure what you mean, KevinMarks_
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gRegor`
404, yobj. But I don't think I've seen it, no.
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KevinMarks_
I made feed.unmung.com to turn feeds into h-entry
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KevinMarks_
could do ello.unmung.com too
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gRegor`
Ohh
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yobj
you're getting a 404, gRegor`? That's odd.
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@joshu
is there a chrome extension for fixing ello's design yet?
(twtr.io/rG56x23xwG)
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gRegor`
I don't know about demand. Mostly just curious how hard it would be.
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gRegor`
Also wondering, since Ello is new, if they could be more easily convinced to add some indieweb support
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gRegor`
Haha, yeah, ello is pretty wonky when clicking back.
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gRegor`
Too much AJAX
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gRegor`
My homepage URL is inexplicably messed up now, too: "p class='profile__links'>gRegorLove.com"
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gRegor`
Ooh, nice, yobj.
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gRegor`
yobj: Did the gist URL get truncated?
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bret
bear: this is neato https://conversejs.org/
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gregorlove.com
edited /Ello (+164) "/* Self-description */ +API section"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
Thanks, yobj. Added it to the /Ello page
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yobj
no prob, gRegor`
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cweiske
ben_thatmustbeme, could you check why I don't get logged in?
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Loqi
cweiske: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 3 hours, 3 minutes ago: try logging in again to my site. I have some instrumentation now and have fixed an few small errors. might help
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cweiske
I tried to login now
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@Wordius
Re-posting yesterday’s post about creating a plain text diary via Drafts to test Webmentions http://wordius.com/plain-text-diary-using-drafts-with-write-for-ios/
(twtr.io/rJF3PvAYxb)
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gregorlove.com
edited /Ello (-50) "/* No API */ No official API"
(view diff)
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cweiske
didn't work
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gregorlove.com
edited /Ello (+4) "/* No Official API */"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
cweiske, everything looks good on my end, state matches up, your auth_endpoint is just returning "Validating token failed"
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm sending and receiving with a trailing /
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ben_thatmustbeme
everything looked good
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cweiske
ben_thatmustbeme, do you request the second time with id or code?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i send code (that i was given), redirect_uri, client_id, and state
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cweiske
it does not find it in the db
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cweiske
let's check
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ben_thatmustbeme
cweiske, sent PM
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cweiske
issue fixed. was a problem on my side with indieauth-openid
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cweiske
even only 187 lines of code can contain bugs :/
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ben_thatmustbeme
i've seen programs half that large contain bugs,
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cweiske.de
edited /distributed-indieauth (+28) "/* Sites that support distributed IndieAuth */"
(view diff)
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cweiske.de
edited /login-brainstorming (+118) "sites that allow login via indieauth"
(view diff)
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cweiske
is there someone else apart from barbabywalters and aaronpk who implements indieauth login on his website without relying on indieauth.com?
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KevinMarks_
Did we accidentally build a monoculture?
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bear
as long as the potential for others to do the same, I would say no
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kylewm
cweiske: tantek uses a differnet implementation of RelMeAuth
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bear
s/the same/the same exists/
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Loqi
bear meant to say: as long as the potential for others to do the same exists, I would say no
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cweiske
"Kevin Beynon got IndieAuth login to his own site working!"
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kylewm
so do you think one of us needs to build a second implementation? to test the specification?
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cweiske
oh, I did the second implementation
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cweiske
there are just no clients that use it
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cweiske
because most rely on indieauth.com
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cweiske
ben_thatmustbeme and barnabywalters being the exceptiosn
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reedstrm
so, we're talking the server auth side? Haven't gotten that far, sorry :-(
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kylewm
oh I see, ben_thatmustbeme uses your authorization_endpoint if you provide one
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kylewm
I’ll make sure to do that too
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ben_thatmustbeme
indieauth.com shows that as the simple implementation, default to indieauth.com
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ben_thatmustbeme
but yes, i had that pointed out to me, so i fixed it
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ben_thatmustbeme
btw, it is actually on my todo list to roll my own auth endpoint, just to break everyone's application who is assuming indieauth.com :)
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme++ for making the cutting edge bleed :)
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 18 karma
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tantek
now let's see about that log...
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ben_thatmustbeme
i go for the jugular
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tantek
!tell aaronpk all of tantek_ and tantek___ and tantek_otp are leftover connections from ?beta Join - server might need rebooting to let go of those connections.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
I mean, let's not inflate our channel stats ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme
!tell aaronpk ben_thatmust_ is leftover too
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
!tell annevk I'm ok with a "License(s):" header section at the top similar to "This version:" that just used the same language. If you want to change the language, make a specific request and I can follow-up with Mozlegal.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske
nothing breaks
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cweiske
you just cannot login
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ben_thatmustbeme
you cannot login is breakage
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ben_thatmustbeme
plus, thats still using indieauth
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ben_thatmustbeme
it should be redirecting to my auth provider, not indieauth
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ben_thatmustbeme
as you well know
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cweiske
aaronpk's plan is that indieauth.com will once redirect to your auth provider
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cweiske
soon, that is
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tantek
cweiske thanks for continuing to push on this (actual federation of indieauth).
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, still, it centralizes everything at indieauth. If the site goes down, no one can login
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ben_thatmustbeme
cweiske++ for not using indieauth.com
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Loqi
cweiske has 13 karma
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tantek
cweiske++ for living on the indieauth bleeding edge.
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Loqi
cweiske has 14 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
i need somewhere new to push the bleeding edge of things, once i get through a few minor bits
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ben_thatmustbeme
i may try looking in to private messaging. would be something i would love to use
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tantek
!tell fdevillamil,neuro` re: https://twitter.com/fdevillamil/status/517054101793026048 not really. Not understanding the huge difference between /Twitter & /RSS is why RSS-framed publishing/sharing solutions/approaches are doomed to die a slow irrelevant death.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme
wow, he's pushing FOR RSS in place of Twitter? wrong direction there.
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ben_thatmustbeme
!tell KevinMarks I have my MP client set to send both syndicate-to= A, B and syndicate-to[]=A&syndicate-to[]=B so it should work for either implementation now.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cuibonobo
ben_thatmustbeme: just tried logging in to your site but nothing happened
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cuibonobo
nothing == page refresh and no apparent change
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ben_thatmustbeme
cuibonobo, its a known issue that I don't have any sort of error msg yet
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ben_thatmustbeme
try again, i just turned debugging back on in there
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cuibonobo
just tried
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tantek
hey cuibonobo did anyone answer your question about google searching the irc logs in date ranges?
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ben_thatmustbeme
weird, its not even getting to the logging
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tantek
is still catching up on logs and various confusions
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cuibonobo
ben_thatmustbeme: i've tried just now with a bare domain and with https, but still nothing
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tantek
I'm confused about the reply-context confusion
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cuibonobo
tantek: nope. but then again, figuring out why google does anything is always a mystery
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ben_thatmustbeme
cuibonobo, what URL? your site listed in irc-people doesn't have an indie-auth endpoint
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tantek
cuibonobo: FWIW I've been having trouble with google date-range search of my own site - they stopped indexing "everything" :(
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cuibonobo
ben_thatmustbeme: ah! i've never had to list the endpoint. i assume everybody else just falls back to indieauth.com if none is listed
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cuibonobo
tantek: ugh. that sucks. have you considered doing search via javascript or something? seems like you can't depend on outsourcing to Google anymore
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tantek
yeah, it's quite annoying. I'm even using *their* PuSH hub which means they should have results for me within seconds
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tantek
almost caught up with logs - then just need to review all the *-context and *-thread hubbub
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ben_thatmustbeme
off for the day
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'll probably be on here and there later
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tantek
just as I was trying to get to the bottom of the reply-* confusion!
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tantek.com
created /otp (+324) "stub with dfn, see also"
(view diff)
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cuibonobo
regarding how Google even gets your page's date to begin with, i thought it would be related to Last-Modified headers but nay! the search bot just does a best guess at scraping the contents of your page. :s
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tantek
cuibonobo: yes it's horrible
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tantek
perhaps even worth documenting on /Google#Criticism
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cuibonobo
well it's certainly a criticism if you choose to depend on them for searching your site
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tantek.com
edited /reply-context (+448) "rewrite dfn, put Twitter background in separate paragraph"
(view diff)
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tantek
what is a reply context?
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Loqi
A reply context is the display of what a reply post is in reply to, including linking to that original post with in-reply-to markup, showing some amount of that original post like author name, icon, summary / ellipsed content, and datetime published http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context
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tantek
FWIW I dislike "history-thread" because "history" implies more comprehensiveness than what is actually displayed.
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tantek
history implies *all* replies to the original post that were made *before* the current reply post are shown, which AFAIK no one does
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tantek
everyone that implements showing *previous* reply-contexts (both silos and indieweb) *only* recursively show the thread back to the original post - no other replies
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tantek
hence reply-thread
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tantek
!tell ben_thatmustbeme I'm not going to edit your changes to reply-thread / history-thread without first discussing with you and seeing if we can figure out what was confusing and debate which terms better reflect what is going. I updated /reply-context dfn/summary a bit - please take a look.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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emmak
tantek: as a user, do you think a full reply history would be more useful than reply context?
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KevinMarks__
hm, no way to get from ello's json to the post URL
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Loqi
KevinMarks__: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 31 minutes ago: I have my MP client set to send both syndicate-to= A, B and syndicate-to[]=A&syndicate-to[]=B so it should work for either implementation now.
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tantek
emmak - in the example of Twitter, it's nice to be able to scroll to the top and see what tweet started the whole thing
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tantek
then if I want to see the whole reply *history*, I click on the permalink of the tweet that started the discussion, which then will display all the threads spawned
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tantek
I should say, it will display all the *comment* threads
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Loqi
fo sho
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tantek
the stuff *below* a post is /comments-presentation
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gRegor`
tantek: To make sure I'm understanding, "history" implies including replies tot he original post from third parties, that aren't in a direct chain with you?
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tantek
gRegor`: correct - there is one history
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tantek
that includes everything that happened
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KevinMarks__
er oops, that was for TysonBrooks
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tantek
the stuff *above* a *reply* post is a reply-context
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KevinMarks__
ah, so tantek is using "history" the way we were using "context" earlier
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gRegor`
I think some confusion (for me) is your use of "reply-contexts" and "reply-thread". "everyone that implements showing *previous* reply-contexts (both silos and indieweb) *only* recursively show the thread back to the original post - no other replies. hence reply-thread"
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gRegor`
reply-thread to me is all the replies below a reply post
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tantek
nope - those are just comments
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tantek
as they would be on any other post type
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tantek
no need to call them something special reply-*
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KevinMarks__
we were trying to distinguish previous posts ("history") from subsequent posts( ("replies")
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tantek
this is what I get for being behind on distinguishing (and separating) reply vs comment :/
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tantek
reply is a reply post on its own permalink - the original
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tantek
a *comment* is a reply syndicated into the context of the thing it is in reply to
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gRegor`
What is reply-thread?
#
Loqi
A reply thread (AKA reply chain) is a threaded list of replies, and replies to those replies, displayed under the original post, as part of the context-thread http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-thread
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gRegor`
^ thoroughly confused now :)
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tantek
right - that's a problematic definition
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KevinMarks__
History+replies =context
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tantek
so I can either fix that - or wait for ben_thatmustbe to debate it with him
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annevk
tantek: I moved the license to the bottom, it's per the recommendation for MediaWiki I think
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tantek
KevinMarks that makes no sense
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gRegor`
Calling them "comments" makes sense and I'm getting a better idea the terminology, though. Not sure how I forgot something so simple.
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Loqi
annevk: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 16 minutes ago: I'm ok with a "License(s):" header section at the top similar to "This version:" that just used the same language. If you want to change the language, make a specific request and I can follow-up with Mozlegal.
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KevinMarks__
for a given post
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tantek
annevk - ok. I don't know what you mean "per the recommendation for MediaWiki" but I'll take a look
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tantek
gRegor`: right, they've always been called comments
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tantek
when displayed below a post
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tantek
so don't rename that
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tantek
that's a bad idea
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gRegor`
agreed
#
tantek
the only *new* notion that's being introduced is a "reply" - which is a post on its own permalink
#
tantek
that happens to be in reply to some other post
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tantek
and then from there, reply-context, and multiple reply-contexts chained up to the original make a reply-thread
#
tantek
but I can see how "thread" is confusing as it can imply the entire chain(s) up and down
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annevk
tantek: has slightly different text from https://wiki.mozilla.org/Standards/license#HTML
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tantek
goes to re-read the text he wrote on the Mozilla wiki.
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tantek
annevk - *nothing* in that text says "bottom" or specifies *location*
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gRegor`
Twitter finally broke my old list URLs. used to be able to access at /username/list-name and it redirected to /username/lists/list-name
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tantek
annvek - in fact nothing in https://wiki.mozilla.org/Standards/license#Markup says *where* to put it - because that's likely up to the specific spec template
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gRegor`
But that redirect doesn't work now and I get a 404
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annevk
tantek: I meant "Per CC0" vs <img>
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tantek
annevk - the Per CC0 vs <img> is a default MediaWiki configuration limitation
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annevk
I didn't want <img> since a) the CC images are not licensed under CC0 and b) their SVG images are low quality
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tantek
default MediaWiki configuration disallows hotlinking external images like http://i.creativecommons.org/p/zero/1.0/80x15.png
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tantek
annevk - that's fine, I'll clarify that
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tantek
that that's ok - whether for HTML or MediaWiki
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barnabywalters
good evening indiewebcamp
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tantek
hey barnabywalters
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gRegor`
Ok, I think I've found an example to demonstrate some of my confusion, tantek.
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tantek
you got the <indie-action> web component stuff working in shrewdness right?
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barnabywalters
currently running a batch job over shrewdness. wow there are a lot of posts in there now
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tantek
we need to document that better on /indie-config
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annevk
tantek: thanks
#
tantek
because I couldn't reproduce how to make it work
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gRegor`
In a twitter thread, they show more than just direct replies underneath the tweet. They also show replies-to-replies, showing the a fuller "thread". That is what I thought /reply-thread meant, at least previously. https://twitter.com/veganstraightedge/status/516804620127961088
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barnabywalters
tantek: actually no I didn’t get that working, mainly because that would require adding the indie-config web component code to shrewdness and it’s not very polished at the mo (if it’s even published)
#
barnabywalters
I do need to update the micropub fallback markup though, to <indie-action>
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gRegor`
Including one's own replies-to-replies :)
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tantek
gRegor`: your confusion is over-applying what reply-thread means which maybe means reply-thread is a bad term
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tantek
they're not showing replies underneath, they're showing *comments* underneat
#
tantek
s/underneat/underneath
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: they're not showing replies underneathh, they're showing *comments* underneath
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barnabywalters
okay, shrewdness updated to show <indie-action> elements next to posts if you don’t have micropub enabled
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gRegor`
Ok, but it's more than just direct comments, right? I mean, it's Lilly's comment, then Shane's comment to her, then Kartik's comment to Shane, etc.
#
tantek
barnabywalters: but to make <indie-action> elements work you need to do all the web components stuff that voxpelli figured out
#
barnabywalters
also at least partially fixed the URL specificity which was causing multiple http+https versions of posts
#
gRegor`
I don't know if we need a term for that concept or not, but it strikes me as different than typical comments on a blog.
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barnabywalters
tantek: well, they’ll work right now with the toolbelt
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tantek
is voxpelli still around? because so far he may be the only who got <indie-action> web components *working* on his site
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barnabywalters
I can also potentially add the web component into shrewdness
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tantek
barnabywalters: of course they do :) the point was to get more folks trying what voxpelli got working
#
tantek
so we can see if a web component solution actually scales across different implementations etc.
#
tantek
gRegor`: the stuff below a post is just comments. not "different than typical comments on a blog".
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gRegor`
I'm not explaining my thoughts well.
#
kylewm
the indie-config stuff was pretty non-trivial
#
barnabywalters
!tell voxpelli did you publish your indie-action webcomponent code anywhere? I’d love to add it to shrewdness for people who don’t have micropub enabled!
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
gRegor`
https://twitter.com/veganstraightedge/status/516805482468483073 is not a comment on the tweet above. It's a commont on Lilly's comment on the tweet above. It's a threaded conversation.
#
barnabywalters
kylewm: on your own site it’s actually pretty straightforward. Once I’ve got it enabled in shrewdness I’ll write a how-to
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tantek
kylewm: yes - we need to improve the documentation there, but that starts with getting a second implementation
#
tantek
gRegor`: right, twitter does not show indentation for nested comments
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kylewm
barnabywalters: I started an implementation at the bottom of https://kylewm.com/static/js/main.js
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kylewm
it is commented out because right now it loads eagerly; if I remember correctly it’s because it did not use the web-components library
#
kylewm
(registering the actual web+action handler on the other hand *was* straight forward)
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barnabywalters
kylewm: ah yeah that’s what I was referring to (e.g. https://waterpigs.co.uk/indie-config.html)
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barnabywalters
haven’t even tried implementing the other half yet
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tantek
right, there's the <indie-action> half, and the registering the web+action: handler half
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tantek
the web+action: half others have gotten to work, e.g. aaronpk
#
tantek
but the <indie-action> web component / iframe etc. half no one else has gotten working
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cuibonobo
i think i get what gRegor` is saying. calling the entire tweet thread "comments" implies that all these tweets are commenting on the tweet at the top, but they're not.
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adactio
There's actually one other little thing we should be doing on the JavaScript side for <indie-action> and that's registering it as a new element (different to registering an action/handler):
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adactio
document.registerElement('indie-action');
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tantek
cuibonobo - but that's what people on reddit and slashdot call the full set
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kylewm
adactio: *anybody* who has <indie-action> tags should be doing that?
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tantek
all of the (nested) comments are thought of as "comments" on the original post in some way
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tantek
adactio - do you understand how voxpelli got <indie-action> web components working?
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adactio
kylem: Technically, yes (for it to qualify as a custom element). In practice, I'm not sure how much difference it makes.
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tantek
because AFAIK no one else does (besides voxp )
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adactio
tantek: can you point me to his implementation?
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tantek
pulls out his blog post
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gRegor`
Yeah, that is what I meant, cuibonobo. And it may not need any term other than "comments", sure.
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kylewm
there is this https://gist.github.com/voxpelli/b448e9d095f655000a46 but it is missing the web-components bits
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tantek
adactio: it *was* on http://voxpelli.com/ but now viewing source I don't see it any more :(
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adactio
tantek: hmmm...
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tantek
not sure why he took it out
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kylewm
adactio: tantek: that gist is pretty much the same as http://indiewebcamp.com/indie-config#How_to_load_someones_indie-config
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tantek
!tell voxpelli could you provide the URL where you have (had?) <indie-action> markup plus web componenets support e.g. with reply and pay actions?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor`
Perhaps /reply-thread could be renamed /reply-context-thread then, since it clarifies it's multiple reply-contexts, not replies (aka "comments")
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kylewm
tantek: it’s there on the post permalink pages
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tantek
gRegor`: from this discussion I'm convinced that the term "thread" is already overloaded and is thus the source of confusion
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gRegor`
Definitely talk to ben_thatmustbeme about this, though. I think he has a better handle on it since he's actually implemented it.
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@beezeebooks
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tantek
kylewm: good find! looks like he is using <script type="text/javascript" src="/js/x-tag-components.js"></script>
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gRegor`
Interesting.
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gRegor`
For me, I think the -thread suffix makes it clearer that it's one or more of that thing.
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tantek
which is not mentioned anywhere on http://indiewebcamp.com/indie-config !
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tantek
a-ha - I think that's the missing piece
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kylewm
tantek: yeah that bit was the part I was not willing to dive into when I tried to implement
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tantek
kylewm - as the site *registering* the web+action: handler - you shouldn't have to
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tantek
that x-tag stuff is only needed for those that *publish* <indie-action> elements
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kylewm
tantek: I want to do both
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tantek
hmm - this might be enough to reverse engineer and get it working
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tantek
but I think it would work better side-by-side rather than over IRC
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tantek
pairing as it were
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tantek
hmm perhaps I can talk benwerd into adding registering of web+action handling to Known
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tantek
kylewm - were you able to get your registering of web+action handling with say http://voxpelli.com/2014/08/back-to-the-startup-world/ ?
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kylewm
tantek: yes
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tantek
kylewm based on that knowledge, can you add to http://indiewebcamp.com/indie-config ?
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tantek
i.e. add an "IndieWeb Examples" section and document your implementation
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kylewm
sure, I can/will do that
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tantek
let's start with that
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tantek
and we can document voxpelli's example page(s) with <indie-action> too
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tantek
gRegor`: let's drop *thread* it's too often confusing
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tantek
to some it implies bidirectionality
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tantek
and gets even more confusing when combined with reply- (my fault)
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tantek
so for now I'm going to start referring to showing more than one reply-context as showing reply-contexts recursively
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gRegor`
So go back to calling it reply-chain?
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tantek
I think that's only slightly less confusing that reply-thread
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tantek
chain can also imply bidirectionality to some
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tantek
I'm saying none of those are good (all are confusing and/or inaccurate/imprecise). reply-thread reply-chain history-thread history-chain
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tantek
whereas "recursive reply-contexts" is quite specific
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gRegor`
ok
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tantek
assuming that reasoning makes sense to you, let's wait for ben_thatmustbe to get back and see if it makes sense with him
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tantek
and then we can do edits
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gRegor`
recursive reply-contexts sounds good for reply-contexts going back beyond the in-reply-to, sure.
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gRegor`
What is recursion?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "recursion" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=recursion
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KevinMarks__
so, ello's json is crap. parsing their html would make more sense
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tantek
in other news - no other comments / follow-ups re: "vouch" webmention protocol extension - does that mean everyone's convinced or just waiting for user-flow and protocol-flow diagrams? ;)
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tantek
what is vouch?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "vouch" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=vouch
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bret
didn't fully follow the irc log :/
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bret
should comb through it more
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tantek.com
created /vouch (+472) "stub with dfn, to do, see also"
(view diff)
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tantek
bret - that would be great. also ok to lazy evaluate and await /vouch to be filled out with more readable prose description that separate statements in IRC
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tantek
s/that separate/than separate
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: bret - that would be great. also ok to lazy evaluate and await /vouch to be filled out with more readable prose description than separate statements in IRC
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bret
currently fighting a GCC compiler
squeakytoy2 joined the channel
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KevinMarks__
we need to tantek tantek into writing vouch up on the wiki
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gRegor`
KevinMarks: Is feed.unmung.com open source?
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gRegor`
I just tried it with the RSS feed I had to wrestle with a couple weeks ago and it worked pretty well.
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gRegor`
It didn't capture multiple dc:creator elements, but otherwise good.
friedcell joined the channel
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KevinMarks__
examples welcomed - there is a lot of variation in feeds and I need to add moe to the template to expose them
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KevinMarks__
hm, I need to nuke the .pyc
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gRegor`
Posted an issue
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KevinMarks__
I need to add 304 handling really
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KevinMarks__
and memcached
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@davidmead
Yes! Finally beat @warrenellis to using a new piece of the web first ;-) /cc @erinjo @withknown @benwerd #indieweb
(twtr.io/rJbcvc1oaC)