#indiewebcamp 2011-11-27

2011-11-27 UTC
peck_lx and brennannovak joined the channel
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aaronpk
tantek: yes, was curious from the "own your comments" perspective
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tantek
it's a tough problem with many facets
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aaronpk
I'd like to put a comment form on my site which allows people to comment via their own site
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aaronpk
I can't think of a good solution
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tantek
have you considered the social issues?
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aaronpk
what do you mean?
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tantek
well, from having seen both rude/argumentative/trolling comments others' personal sites (e.g. Eric Meyer), and having had to filter / block comments from negative / trolling folks on content I've sharecropped various places (e.g. Google+), I'm not sure I would want a comment system on my own site that allowed comments from people I don't know.
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tantek
on my own site, I want to curate a much higher level of discussion
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tantek
than on share-cropped comments elsewhere
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aaronpk
maybe it's not even worth pursing something analogous to the current commenting system, and instead just re-thinking discussion online
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tantek
somehow it's more ok that on my posts on Google+ there are sometimes semi-crazy type folks who take extra energy to deal with (and eventually turn positive, or have to block)
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tantek
I just don't want to feel any sense of maintaining space/permalinks for any negative people on my own domain, even for historical reasons
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aaronpk
lately my sites have been getting a lot of spam comments (pretty neutral text comments with a link to their site) that I'd really don't even want to deal with
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tantek
I'm basically leaning towards white-list only for comments that I'd host on my own domain
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aaronpk
whitelisting people?
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tantek
well, identities, but yeah
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tantek
not unlike considering people you'd invite into your living room for a discussion
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tantek
except even in the living room case, the discussions are ephemeral
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aaronpk
that makes sense.
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tantek
there's a case to be made to be even more exclusive with who you allow to comment on your personal domain
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aaronpk
I want two things: I want to keep my own comments I leave on other peoples' sites, and I want to keep others' comments on my sites.
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aaronpk
Disqus is an interesting start in that direction because I can log in to my account and see all comments I've left across the internet
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tantek
ironically enough, one place to look for analogies to this kind of social challenge is the permissions model on people's Facebook walls
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tantek
yeah those are definitely two distinct but related things.
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aaronpk
also ironic is the fact that I've started to replace my comment forms with facebook comment boxes for two reasons: combating spam, and getting the publication to facebook feeds built in
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tantek
keeping your own comments that you leave on other peoples' sites is the easier problem to solve, socially and technically
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aaronpk
I also find that I get more feedback when there's a facebook comment box than a regular comment box. (haven't tried disqus yet)
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tantek
the thing is, with a whitelist-only permissions model, spam isn't ever a problem
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tantek
so I think you may be solving the problem from the wrong end, starting *too* open and trying to limit it, rather than starting with commenting on your site as a privilege that is earned
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aaronpk
interesting point
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tantek
the getting more feedback aspect is likely due to Facebook's UI and convenience (people already being logged in)
brennannovak joined the channel
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tantek
it's something that we can mimic with both UI and login state (via long-lived RelMeAuth sign-ins)
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aaronpk
I agree. I think that's also possible to solve if browsers had the concept of identity.
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tantek
browsers having the concept of identity is another path to making login state more convenient.
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tantek
it's helpful but not necessary.
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aaronpk
I think I would be comfortable with any of my facebook or twitter friends commenting on my site. That's a whitelist, but unfortunately the list is not my own.
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tantek
those are both good for bootstrapping a personal whitelist yes
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tantek
however
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tantek
here's another thought experiment - if you could give people the ability to make "editorial" changes on your primary content, how would you decide who to give those abilities to?
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aaronpk
that's a curious idea... that gets much more complicated because I suspect there would be different groups of people depending on the content
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tantek
would there? don't you think you could trust them in general to self-limit based on the content?
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aaronpk
that's probably true
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aaronpk
That's sort of getting into the realm of Ward Cunningham's federated wiki idea actually.
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tantek
related but not really
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tantek
Federated wiki would allow for discovery of people that you might whitelist
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aaronpk
see content online, fork to your own site, send a pull request. yea, better for un-whitelisted people
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tantek
but however you do discovery, you're still going to have to figure out a decision-making methodology for who you let edit directly
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tantek
perhaps not unlike who you add as "contributors" to your projects on github
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tantek
but instead of "projects", have it be your content, and instead of on github, have it be on your site
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aaronpk
Currently my main site (http://aaronparecki.com) is editable to anybody I follow on Twitter. Since it's a wiki and keeps good changelogs, I trust my friends to not make destructive edits.
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tantek
the reason I bring up this thought experiment is that I think it is a simpler form of the "who should I whitelist to allow comments" problem.
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tantek
that's awesome
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tantek
so you're ahead of the game
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aaronpk
I'd like to find an "indie" replacement to that method, but there are two challenges I see.
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aaronpk
One being the user interface for me to add people to the whitelist, and two being the way they authenticate.
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aaronpk
OpenID would be one way if it weren't so confusing to set up and very underutilized, but there's still the UI problem for me to add people's domains.
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tantek
I'd say RelMeAuth is a good first step towards OpenID-like support
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tantek
open source PHP library and all
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tantek
plus with RelMeAuth you could hook it up to your existing Twitter following checklist
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tantek
i.e. no reason for me to sign-in with Twitter. I could sign-in with tantek.com and via RelMeAuth it would end up using my Twitter to auth me as tantek.com, which you would then also be able to check to see if you're following me.
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aaronpk
I'd still have to implement Twitter (and other service) logins to support RelMeAuth, right?
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tantek
that would be a nice incremental step towards an OpenID-like experience without having to first code up a UI for whitelisting people's domains - you could do that later
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tantek
you've already implemented Twitter sign-in - that's my point
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tantek
RelMeAuth would give your friends a personal URL abstraction on top of that
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aaronpk
yes, that's good.
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aaronpk
so I could tell people "enter your home page URL, and as long as you have a rel="me" link to your Twitter profile on the page, you can log in"
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tantek
the ability to make incremental progress by adding incremental independent interlocking building blocks
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tantek
I'd avoid help text etc. and provide it only on error-handling / help-request flows
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aaronpk
that's the right idea tho right?
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tantek
the question of what text to use for the text input label has been a challenging one that's hampered OpenID for example
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tantek
based on the New York Time's preference for "web address" over "URL", I'm leaning towards something like
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tantek
web address: [ …. ]
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tantek
however the challenge before that is what to replace the [ Sign in with Twitter ] button with
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aaronpk
ideally it would just be a [ Sign in ] button, but there's a lot of work to do before that's possible
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tantek
I've been considering trying a simple button like: [ Web sign-in ]
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tantek
so that it communicates a bit of an expectation before you click it
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tantek
people are used to a normal/plain [ Sign in ] button requiring a site-specific login, email etc. and that if they don't think they already have an account there, they don't bother clicking it.
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tantek
whereas with a [ Sign in with Twitter ] button, they are already given an expectation that if they have a Twitter, they might be able to do something
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tantek
I don't have a perfect answer for this yet, but I do think a [ Web sign-in ] button is a decent first best guess
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tantek
something upon which we can perform user studies, get feedback etc.
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aaronpk
that seems like a reasonable first guess
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aaronpk
On an unrelated note, would you mind taking another glance at my OAuth book outline? I've made a bunch of edits based on feedback I've gotten: http://aaronparecki.com/The_Definitive_Guide_to_OAuth_2
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tantek
ok will do
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tantek
BTW I do think a short bit of 'title' text on the [ Web sign-in ] button could work well too
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tantek
like that's where you could say
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tantek
"Sign in with your personal web address."
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aaronpk
true. also a small [what's this?] link nearby pointing to an explanation page would be helpful
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tantek
exactly
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tantek
super succinct copy, progressively more descriptive and discoverable
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aaronpk
<a href="http://microformats.org/wiki/RelMeAuth">[what's this?]</a>
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tantek
we could probably do better than that for a first cut short paragraph description :)
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tantek
aaronpk, does "web sign-in" sound like a reasonable user-facing working name for this feature?
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aaronpk
yes I think so. it's unique enough to cause people to consider what it is before turning it away assuming as username/password login, but generic enough that it doesn't brand itself horribly (like RelMeAuth or iAuth would do)
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tantek
or OpenID did
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tantek
other nice attributes:
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tantek
not jargony (unlike OpenID and WebFinger)
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tantek
hopefully generic enough to be difficult for any one person/company to attempt a trademark
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tantek
we can label it a community mark(cm) - a term made-up by Chris Messina for what we call the logo of and term Barcamp
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aaronpk
That's a neat term.
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tantek
ok finally wrote up a better first cut at a short paragraph (and a few more) to link to for a brief hopefully user-friendly explanation of web sign-in
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tantek
as a better destination for "[what's this?]"
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tantek
aaronpk - just noticed you added Github as another relmeauth endpoint - very cool. Didn't realize they'd added hCard and rel=me support
lmorchard, catsup, peck_lx, tantek, brennannovak and Loqi joined the channel