#indiewebcamp 2012-09-18

2012-09-18 UTC
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aaronpk !tell barnabywalters thanks for the tip! Looks like my feed broke when I posted an image in a note! Should be fixed now, but everything is wrapped in an extra <p> tag
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tommorris tantek: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Briansuda/NASCAR_problem
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tommorris tantek: I left a note on your Wikipedia talk page.
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /location (+117) "/* Enabling Technologies */ Added geonames" (view diff)
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tommorris wonders if barnaby will swoop in momentarily.
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tantek oh hey tommorris
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Loqi barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message 11 hours, 23 minutes ago: thanks for the tip! Looks like my feed broke when I posted an image in a note! Should be fixed now, but everything is wrapped in an extra <p> tag
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barnabywalters aaronpk: fab, yep, I've been able to successfully subscribe to your feed now
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barnabywalters I'll add to the wiki that dumb truncation and html preprocessors which don't produce valid XML are the biggest error-causers when it comes to feeds
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barnabywalters tommorris: successfully received a realtime notification of your new content
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tommorris awesomesauce
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barnabywalters I just made a screencase trying to show end-to-end use of PuSH. Did a clear explanation, then it failed on me :| Not sure whether to post it out of honesty or make one which works
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tantek banabywalters - if you can debug it, screencasting your method/process of debugging could be useful.
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tantek thanks tommorris - I am a bit surprised at the scant citations on the NASCAR article, thought we had more.
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barnabywalters tantek: or it could expose my incompetence, and just be a 10 minute long video of me saying "Hmmm" and trawling through logs :)
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tantek that's what editing is for
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barnabywalters heh — okay, I'll just leave the camera running
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barnabywalters actually, that might be an interesting experiment anyway, just recording my screen all the time
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tantek tommorris, I think I'd rather contribute to an article on NASCAR on the IndieWebCamp wiki which has less chance of being deleted (and is reasonably topical, since UI for login etc. is something essential to a good IndieWeb experience)
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tantek will ping briansuda accordingly
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tantek so he can contribute his original material as PD to the IndieWebCamp wiki
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tommorris tantek: well, you can import it from WP. if there's other stuff that has been deleted
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tommorris I'm happy to userfy and export
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tommorris I do find it amusing that we've all collectively rejected OpenID because of the NASCAR problem, and now use OAuth instead.
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tommorris I was offered the option to login today with my TED username. (I don't have a TED username.) ;-)
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tommorris that said, I've found two potential sources for the NASCAR problem - a book called "Programming Windows Identity Foundation" and this http://www.webmonkey.com/2010/01/openid_connect_rethinking_openid_as_more_than_just_identity/
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barnabywalters okay, I recorded that debug session. It was mainly "Hmmm, I've checked everything and it *should* work, why is it not working?"
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barnabywalters so I think I'll "edit" that by throwing it away
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tantek barnabywalters - sounds like you're not done debugging ;)
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tantek has dm'd briansuda asking that he develop the NASCAR problem article here: http://indiewebcamp.com/NASCAR_problem
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suda.co.uk created /NASCAR_problem (+1088) "copied over the file from wikipedia" (view diff)
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barnabywalters tantek: yep :| I went for a walk, in the hope it would work when I came back
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tantek huh - copying the file from WP to IndieWebCamp doesn't really work due to license differences (IndieWebCamp is PD). We have to only copy from original author (Brian's intent) and anybody else who contributes to PD regularly (e.g. on microformats.org)
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tantek.com deleted /NASCAR_problem "content was copy from WP article. deleting to start fresh from original contributions from Brian Suda, Tantek Çelik, Chris Messina"
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barnabywalters btw tantek did you see the "itches" entry pages I made?
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tantek.com created /NASCAR_problem (+621) "Brian Suda's original draft from: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Briansuda/NASCAR_problem&oldid=301731327" (view diff)
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barnabywalters after IWC UK I thought it might be a good idea to have some basic organisation and entry points for people to see what's being worked on
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tantek barnabywalters - great to see the new pages!
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tantek One thing about "itches" - they really should be personal user scenarios, rather than abstract labels like "location"
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tantek I mean, it's good to have a "location" article, but "location" is not an itch.
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tantek "indieweb checkins" is an itch
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tantek make sense?
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tantek tommorris - I suppose the closest thing we had/have to a Principles page before you posted yours was the Creators page
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barnabywalters yep, but that's purely a terminology issue — I'll just change the category name
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Creators
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tantek it's not a terminology issue
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tantek an "itch" is a real thing
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tantek in the development / design context, scratching an itch means solving a problem for yourself
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tantek location is not a "problem"
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tantek "how do I check-in to a location using my own website" is a problem
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barnabywalters sure, by "terminology issue" I meant "I used the wrong terminology"
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tantek well it's not that you used any "wrong" terminology, just mismatched
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tantek as in yes, we should have a "location" page with various references
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barnabywalters so "itches" get renamed to something else, and itches get listed under them
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tantek and we should *also* have a "checkins" page for solving the problem of how to do indieweb checkins
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tantek I'm not sure renaming makes any sense
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barnabywalters just renaming the category
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tantek because there's no specific concept that the current category embodies
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tantek that's the problem
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barnabywalters fair enough
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tantek the pages currently listed on http://indiewebcamp.com/Category:itch are a mix of indieweb building blocks and reference pages
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tantek both of which are valuable, but they're not the same thing
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barnabywalters 'building blocks' sounds like a better classification
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tantek it's closer
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tantek e.g. discovery is a building block
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tantek but "location" - as written, is not
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tantek because it's more of a reference to various things
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tantek rather than a specific thing
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tantek references list everything related
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tantek whereas a building block is a *specific* thing or set of things that helps you get things done
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tantek and may even list legacy / other stuff separately
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barnabywalters okay, this sounds like a much more solid IA
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barnabywalters I am not experienced with wikis :|
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tantek I'm not a big fan of categories, but feel free to try to make them work :)
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tantek display-guidelines is another good building block
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tantek as is autosuggest
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barnabywalters tantek: how would you rather structure things? My intention was really just to have generic entry points for people interested in a certain area, so they can instantly get a feel for what work has been/is being done and who's working on it
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tantek I typically *don't* structure things unless there is a specific value (use-case) to be gained from doing so.
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tantek otherwise you can spend all your time reorganizing and never do actual work
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barnabywalters as I have written about before, I am no fan of "categories" either (woo tags) but I feel there is a need for entry points
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barnabywalters beyond the current "what, where, when" ones
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tantek better to force yourself to design a good introductory / clustering structure of pages from the home page down
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tantek if you're not sure, you can put links to pages in a "new pages" section on the home page, and wait for someone else to restructure them
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tantek that way there is at least *an* entry point
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tantek the "who's working on it" btw is already apparent from the page's history
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tantek and listing it explicitly on the page quickly gets out of date
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barnabywalters yep, that is a maintenance problem
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tantek better to be DRY and just stick with the history being self-reflective about that
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tantek it's being worked on by whoever is editing the page most recently :)
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barnabywalters it'd be nice if that data was made a bit more visible, but I agree
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barnabywalters okay, I'll leave my faulty IA in place for the mo and work from the homepage down
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tantek awesome - thanks barnabywalters
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tantek feel free to think out loud here in the IRC channel when considering how to organize things
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barnabywalters yep, will do
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tantek even if no one responds, it might help clear things up
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barnabywalters yep, I'm a fan of typing out loud to myself
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tantek.com edited /NASCAR_problem (+451) "add/update the edits I made when it was on WP: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ABriansuda%2FNASCAR_problem&diff=301902532&oldid=301852507" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /NASCAR_problem (+0) "fix links" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /distributed_social_network (+75) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /OpenID (+55) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /NASCAR_problem (+0) "fix link" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Main_Page (+114) "Moved 2012/UK to Past Events" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /NASCAR_problem (+332) "copy/adjust applicable FactoryJoe (Chris Messina) edits to the original WP article: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ABriansuda%2FNASCAR_problem&diff=304955319&oldid=301938084" (view diff)
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barnabywalters okay, on the main page, 'what' is a slightly expanded version of the top section, and the second paragraph (IWC is an annual gathering…) is inaccurate as there've been two this year
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barnabywalters so I propose making 'What' the first paragraph
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tantek.com edited /NASCAR_problem (+27) "category" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters re: categories and tags, we can try just using them as tags and see what happens
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barnabywalters tantek: I'm not really fussed about exactly what we use from an IA perspective, I'm more interested in providing useful entry points
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barnabywalters hence now working on the front page
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tantek great
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tommorris tantek: do you wanna import the page from WP with history? MediaWiki has full history import and export
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tantek remember to keep in mind that there are many uses for the home page
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tantek tommorris - no because not all the contributors to the WP page are PD contributors
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tommorris ah okay
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tantek and IndieWebCamp.com contributions are PD
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barnabywalters tantek: right now I'm just eliminating redundant information
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tantek simplification is good, as long as the information really is redundant :)
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barnabywalters well, the first section and the "what" section are almost exactly the same
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tantek often surfacing "redundant" information on higher level pages (e.g. main, event home page etc.) is better for usability though - not having to click through multiple pages to find common information needs
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barnabywalters in this case, there were two paragraphs which looked copy/pasted
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tantek tommorris - are there places where WP-like articles on more obscure/arcane subjects are first developed (while they would get deleted on WP due to not be relevant/prominent enough) ?
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tommorris yeah, quite a few
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tommorris most of wikia, wikinfo. sometimes we shunt stuff between the wikimedia projects. I'm an admin on wikiqueer which hosts LGBT related material that's outside of Wikipedia's scope
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tommorris there's also a guy who archives a lot of the speedy deleted stuff
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tommorris plus at wikipedia, there are a lot of admins who are willing to undelete stuff on request
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barnabywalters tommorris: when something is deleted, it's *really* deleted, right? no archived edit history?
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tommorris no. admins can still access all the history
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tommorris for stuff that really, really needs to be deleted there are overnighters - http://enwp.org/OS
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tommorris oversighters
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tommorris damn OS X autocorrect
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tommorris child porn images, we delete them and then they are over sighted and then actually physically removed from the server hardware.
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Main_Page (-218) "Eliminated redundant copy and tidied it up" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /NASCAR_problem (+532) "add more references / see also. first cited comparison to NASCAR by Jeff Atwood" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Main_Page (+21) "/* When */ Tidied up copy" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Main_Page (+42) "/* 2012 */ Tidied up event listing" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Main_Page (+3) "/* IndieWebCamp */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters okay, the FAQ looks neglected. It has one question, which should be in a syndication/feeds best practises page
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Main_Page (+93) "Tidied up the How section" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /FAQ () "(-582) Removed out of date information, replaced with a link to more up to date info" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Main_Page (+2) "/* Who */" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Main_Page (+2) "Made Who a subsection of IWC 2013 as all it's links pointed there anyway" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Main_Page (+130) "/* How */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters ARGH! PuSH is working perfectly again. I'm almost annoyed, as I didn't figure out what was going wrong.
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barnabywalters It could happen again at any time
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barnabywalters better do a syndication demo video quick!
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@BarnabyWalters @kissane hmm, there's a lot of thought about that happening @indiewebcamp. Not sure there are any solid articles as such though.
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tantek I'm wondering if I'm seeing something special in Google results (that wasn't there before)
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tantek semi-indieweb related
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tantek trying doing a search for XOXO Directory
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aaronpk tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 5 karma
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aaronpk wow
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tantek what do you see in the first 2-3 results?
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aaronpk http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8320/8000688018_41bacdb698_o.png
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tantek btw re: Flickr, do you know the photo.gne?id= trick?
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tantek e.g.
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tantek http://flickr.com/photo.gne?id=8000688018
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tantek :D
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tantek (id extracted from your link)
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aaronpk ah neat
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aaronpk also http://flic.kr/photo.gne?id=8000688018
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tantek so the first result's rich snippet is from the semantic table on that page
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tantek the "500+ items" is from counting the number of rows in the table
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tantek it's a rich snippet derived purely from semantic HTML5
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aaronpk that's kind of amazing
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tantek I can't find any documentation on it
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tantek but it looks like if (most of?) a page has a (just one?) simple table on it with a row of <th> header cells and the rest with <td>s, Google will use that to build the rich snippet.
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tantek no other markup needed
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tantek interesting thing is that the "table" rich snippet does not show up when you use Google's rich snippet testing tool
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tantek btw
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tantek in using the rich snippets test, I noticed that it now parses out hAtom (hfeed, hentry) and shows you the results (including warnings for anything that it thinks is wrong)
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tantek e.g. scroll to the end of http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwaterpigs.co.uk%2F
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tantek anyone know when Google started parsing hAtom (hfeed, hentry)? danbri do you know these things?
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Contribute (+4) "/* How to Contribute */ Added link to IRC page" (view diff)
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tommorris barnabywalters: you can contribute, by COMING TALKING TO US! ;-)
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barnabywalters tommorris: yep, pretty much :)
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barnabywalters Okay, I'm getting a bit closer to the PuSH bug
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barnabywalters there's a period of unresponsiveness after subscribing, for some reason
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barnabywalters submitted a new issue on the pubsub site, as it seems to be a problem on their end and not mine
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