#indiewebcamp 2012-10-30

2012-10-30 UTC
dascher, ybit and ybit2 joined the channel
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@chrisDAPS It's fun to know that all of the bigger sites are having outages, and there DAPS is fully functional, and we're not posting #indieweb
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joshr_ good day everyone
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joshr_ i'm experimenting with wordpress as a central node for my own person indie site http://test.joshrussell.com
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joshr_ just wondered if anyone has documented a good content posting flow? i.e. post in wordpress updates twitter, instagram photo updates wordpress which updates twitter, etc etc
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joshr_ the idea being to have a central location on wordpress but have content originate or end up at sources or destinations
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joshr_ i'm using IFTTT for most of it, which sets post categories (no post format support yet, which is a shame)
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tommorris joshr_: not sure, sorry.
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joshr_ ok
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joshr_ i know there's no single answer to that question really :)
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joshr_ but good example flows would be a good starting point to set this up
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tantek joshr_ awesome!
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tantek sounds like you're asking for documentation of POSSE content posting flow?
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joshr_ ah yes!
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joshr_ most of getting an answer is knowing how to ask the question ;)
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tantek how's this? http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#Publishing_Flows
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joshr_ ok that's a good start
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joshr_ so that's essentially a first stab at a best practice?
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tantek.com edited /POSSE (+69) "/* Publishing Flows */ add reference to content posting flow for better discoverability" (view diff)
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tantek joshr_ it's a generalized description of what Falcon (on my site), and barnabywalter's site do.
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joshr_ right
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tantek current best practice, yes
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tantek not necessarily a theoretical ideal, you may come up with something better :)
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joshr_ lol, i'm having a go ;)
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tantek but perhaps better to start with minimum viable POSSE :)
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joshr_ yeah, that's my first step
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joshrussell.com created /User:Joshrussell.com (+198) "Created page with "= Josh Russell = * http://joshrussell.com Attempting to bootstrap something indie on top of Wordpress. Probably not the first, but starting fresh to learn the issues! * http://..."" (view diff)
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joshrussell.com edited /User:Joshrussell.com (+27) "/* Josh Russell */" (view diff)
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tantek great start joshr_!
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tantek maybe add something about your UI/design background & skills
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tantek :)
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joshr_ will do :)
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tommorris joshr_: there's definitely design problems on the indieweb. I've been meaning to write something about how visually signifying something as being an indieweb version of a "tweet" is hard work.
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tommorris otherwise, we're gonna have a nightmare of a problem when people give the same significance to goofy tweet type things as they do to long considered blog posts.
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tommorris Twitter has become a genre in the same way Sellotape, Hoover and Xerox have become types of products rather than brands.
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barnabywalters joshr_: RE Wordpress+indieweb, Beau Lebens has written some useful stuff about WP plugins and such things
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barnabywalters http://dentedreality.com.au/
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tommorris New blog post: The Sellotape Problem, design and the indie web http://tommorris.org/posts/2488
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@tommorris The Sellotape Problem, design and the indie web — http://tommorris.org/posts/2488 #indiewebcamp
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barnabywalters reads
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aaronpk ...that gives me an idea...
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barnabywalters tommorris: fabulous article.
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tommorris ta
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tommorris this is why we need more designers. you know, the sort of people who look at Eclipse or Emacs and go "what, seriously, you guys use that?"
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barnabywalters tommorris: one of the biggest design differences I’ve noticed between things considered 'articles' and things considered 'tweets' is the presence of a profile photo/name in the top left
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barnabywalters that is quite significant as it gives it more of an IM/conversation “look”
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aaronpk I don't necessarily agree with that
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aaronpk i've seen lots of articles with peoples' photos next to them
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aaronpk also google's verified author thing puts photos next to search results of articles
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barnabywalters true
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barnabywalters actually, I’ve just noticed that the difference isn’t in the photo at all
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barnabywalters it’s that articles have a distinct title, but for tweets, the authors name is the title
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tommorris big text. ;-)
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barnabywalters tommorris: yeah, and that ;)
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tommorris barnabywalters: thanks for the repost.
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@BarnabyWalters The Sellotape Problem, #design and the #indieweb /by @tommorris http://tommorris.org/posts/2488 #bookmark (http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/503)
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aaronpk so much meta data in that tweet :)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: now you mention it, damn! I forgot <cite> ;)
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barnabywalters tommorris: np. I’m experimenting with #bookmark in notes instead of having a separate content type
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tommorris still delegates bookmarking to pinboard.
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tantek tommorris - joshr_ was recently relenting about not knowing how to contribute here as a designer/UX type person.
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tantek re: article vs. note - it's the presence/absence of structure
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aaronpk paragraph structure?
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tantek articles typically have *some* structure to them, a heading/title/name, subheadings etc.
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tantek notes are just text
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tantek a couple of paragraphs - likely just a note
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tantek a few paragraphs - likely still just a note
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barnabywalters For me philosophically and technologically it depends mainly on structure and a little on how likely I am to edit it in the future
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tantek as soon as you feel like adding a name or subsections, that pushes it over from note to article IMHO
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barnabywalters hm, this needs a wiki page
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aaronpk after my talk with tantek last week, i'm actually leaning in favor of two post types: article and notes (or posts, not sure what to call it yet) where the second one has everything including text notes, photos, checkins, events, etc
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aaronpk see: http://aaronparecki.com/2012/296/article/1/creating-content-on-the-indie-web
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I am in agreement with that
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barnabywalters I am relegating my “activity” abstraction for internal use such as building edit histories of things
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barnabywalters and using notes for pretty much anything which isn’t a structured article
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tommorris barnabywalters: you need a favicon. ;-)
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barnabywalters tommorris: I do indeed! Also apple-touch-x-y-etc
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tantek aaronpk - I think it's reasonable to style other non-article post types to look like "notes" until you have a reason to style them specially
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tantek what I showed you and we discussed were examples of notes *with* photos etc. in them
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tantek the checkin example is interesting for sure
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tantek note with geo tag
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tantek vs. checkin with a note
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tantek for the reasons I think you brought up
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tantek where you often put the location as an FYI, perhaps even vague, piece of metadata. like maybe just the city, state, or country.
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tantek whereas a check-in is at venue-resolution
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tommorris tantek: inferring a reasonable city/state/country thing from geo-coordinates is hard. ;-)
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tantek but I'm still not sure that a note that is geotagged with a venue-resolution location is the same (or not) as a "check-in" to a venue with a note
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tantek this is from a UI/UX perspective of course
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tantek tommorris - sometimes. hence why it's a user publishing choice thing.
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tommorris so, from the user perspective, there's a difference between "I'm writing a post about something unrelated, I just happen to be in Chinatown" and "I'm in this particular bar and want to share something interesting"
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tantek at the point of authoring, the user can decided to geotag (or not) with what resolution of location
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tantek the UI can suggest a city/state/country, and the user could customize/fix it.
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barnabywalters class="h-as-checkin" vs "h-as-note"?
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tantek barnabywalters - right, that's what the microformats2 classes would be
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tantek we're just discussing the conceptual difference between the two types
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tantek prefers to just use the short names for the types from AS
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tantek looks up the AS object type taxonomy
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tommorris I've just fired up Foursquare on my phone. let's see. from my unscientific sample of people, I'd say it's about 60% raw checkin vs. 40% with extra stuff.
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tantek https://github.com/activitystreams/activity-schema/blob/master/activity-schema.md#object-types
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tantek :D
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barnabywalters __SO MANY__
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tantek what a long and ugly URL
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tantek goes to wikify
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tommorris where the extra stuff is… a photo, a tiny review like "good service, great prices" at a cafe, or a snarky little comment like "oh, it's Christmas already"
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barnabywalters tommorris: so, use cases for that sample are “I am here and it looks nice”, “I am here an the sevice is good/bad”, ”I am here and I am goddamn witty”
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tommorris yup, but for the people who are just checking in, a lot of those are just doing it routinely
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barnabywalters “I am here and I want others to know about it”
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tommorris like, a friend of mine who checks in every day at the office. well, that's just the gamification crack addict nature of Foursquare. is everyone gonna want to post that to their own site? again, there are genre differences
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barnabywalters personally, I am only likely to explicitly tell people I am in a place if have some extra content to broadcast
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tantek.com edited /ActivityStreams (+407) "quick refs to object types and verbs, and updated my actual use of h-as-note and h-as-article" (view diff)
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barnabywalters on my own site, that is
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tommorris so, two of mine with geolocations recently.
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tommorris http://tommorris.org/posts/2484 – just posted a little link I found interesting while in a bar.
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tommorris http://tommorris.org/posts/2483 – that's basically a review of an ice cream place.
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barnabywalters so that’s another use case: to give context to a note
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tommorris the context in this case being "it's a Saturday night, you are in a gay bar and you are blogging, you sad, sad fuckwit".
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barnabywalters tommorris: not that all of that is obvious from the location data :)
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tommorris only because I haven't got the checkin fully wired up yet.
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barnabywalters how about this as a test of whether or not a note is conceptually text-with-geo or geo-with-text: should there be a big map of the geo data next to the text?
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barnabywalters if so, it’s geo-with-text
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barnabywalters else, it’s text supported by geo
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tommorris yes. that's not a bad test actually
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tommorris or at least an address
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tommorris (the addresses on my posts link to OSM, obviously)
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barnabywalters I am not yet doing reverse geocoding, or otherwise exposing geo data in HTML
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barnabywalters but what I suspect I will do is mimic your “in [[address
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barnabywalters ]]…
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barnabywalters unless the note is tagged with "checkin"
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tommorris barnabywalters: https://gist.github.com/3923100
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barnabywalters or "geo" or something
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tantek btw I do tend to agree that there are too many object types
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barnabywalters in which case, display a map properly
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tantek I think I even noted an issue as such
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barnabywalters goes into nonexistent ruby-reading mode
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tommorris barnabywalters: the only complicated bit is << which is just add to array.
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barnabywalters should learn some ruby sometime
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tommorris there's a Python version if that's any easier: https://gist.github.com/3923307
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tommorris it's basically the same but with more significant whitespace. ;-)
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barnabywalters awesome, got it
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barnabywalters I’ll add it to my helpers package when I implement it, so there’ll be a PHP version too
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tommorris it's not quite finished yet.
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tommorris the problem is OpenStreetMap reverse geocoding is okay.
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tommorris not great.
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barnabywalters is that a problem which has to be solved at the source, then?
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tommorris so for instance, St Pancras comes back as being in "Somers Town". Now, this is technically correct. Nobody actually refers to it as "Somers Town", they refer to it as Euston Road.
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tommorris similarly, Duncannon Road, where aforementioned bar is, isn't in Chinatown.
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tommorris Duncannon Street rather
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barnabywalters so where actually is the problem? In the geocoding algos or the OSM data?
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tommorris a mixture of the two
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tommorris if it were an easy, uncontroversial fix in OSM, I'd fix it. ;-)
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aaronpk turns out location is hard
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tantek so says the man selling location ;)
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aaronpk that's why there's a business in it :)
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tantek will postpone implementing his geo hacks until aaronpk is a made man then.
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tantek back to AS types
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tantek wow, 33 object types and 78 verbs in the latest AS taxonomy of such things.
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tantek that seems like a lot
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tantek :(
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barnabywalters my biggest problem with AS is not the number of verbs and object types, but the large amounts of different places content can be put and the lack of clarity as to what should go where
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barnabywalters e.g. displayName, title, summary, content,
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barnabywalters and then all the properties of the object associated with the activity
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tantek oh that's interesting
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barnabywalters what goes where? In what context is the summary going to be used in?
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tantek well those are issues with Atom more than AS
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tantek Atom has title, summary, content
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barnabywalters not an issue with Atom. Atom is very clear about what is what
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barnabywalters and has no nesting
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barnabywalters e.g. activity -> object
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barnabywalters what goes in the activity as opposed to the object? it is not clear
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barnabywalters and there are few implementations to look at for reference
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tantek what do you mean by object?
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barnabywalters with ATOM, you can look at your feed in some readers and immediately see what is being displayed where
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tantek Atom has entries
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tantek and each entry is equivalent to an AS activity
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barnabywalters AS has activities which have titles and summaries, and contain objects which have displayNames, summaries and possibly content too
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tantek.com edited /ActivityStreams (+1060) "Issues section, Too Many Object Types and Verbs issue" (view diff)
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barnabywalters so the classic example is a “reshare”…
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barnabywalters I want to reshare some bit of content
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barnabywalters and add an annotation
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barnabywalters AS is not clear about where that goes
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tantek that's not an AS thing
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barnabywalters does it go in activity.summary? or in a separate note attached to activity.attachments?
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tantek in fact, if you're adding an annotation, you're doing a simple reshare/retumbl/retweet
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tantek you're NOT doing a simple ....
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tantek you're just doing a post with a blockquote of some other content in it
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tantek plus your annotation
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barnabywalters well, yes. that is the more sensible way of doing things. but AS allows for reshares and such things to have annotations
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barnabywalters I’m assuming this is because FB allows this behaviour
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tantek calling them "reshares" is a misconception
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tantek FB allows quoting posts in other posts
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tantek or maybe we're talking about different things
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tantek.com edited /ActivityStreams (+167) "/* Issues */ Lack of clients problem - AS vs Atom" (view diff)
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barnabywalters okay, just tried this out on FB
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barnabywalters sharing something with an annotation vs without
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barnabywalters but going back to this in AS: a plain “share” is an share activity with the shared link as the object, whereas a share with an annotation is a post activity where the note containing the annotation is the object
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barnabywalters so the verbs and structure are different
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tantek more importantly, the UI is different
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tantek from such different UI, it's worth figuring out different object types and/or verbs and/or properties
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tantek.com edited /ActivityStreams (+2) "/* Too many object types and verbs */ 78!" (view diff)
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/ActivityStreams#Too_many_object_types_and_verbs
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tantek Twitter's "retweets" are the best "reshare" UI/presentation of current attempts that I know of. Where they show the original author, and some icon indication that it has been reshared
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barnabywalters they also differentiate between retweeting and quoting the tweet
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tantek quoting a tweet is just a tweet with some quoted text. there is no other display aspect
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tantek nor linking back to the original or anything
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tantek only replies seem to show the tweet they are in-reply-to
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tantek.com edited /ActivityStreams (+111) "issue: are verbs necessary?" (view diff)
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tommorris so, tommorris.org now has full text search.
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tommorris admittedly, not working full text search. ;-)
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aaronpk deferred to google on that one
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@Trustyd What does the acquisition of #3XSystems by #Trustyd mean? Read about it here: http://trustydofficial.blogspot.com/2012/10/trustyd-acquires-3x-systems.html #OwnYourData
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