#indiewebcamp 2012-12-26

2012-12-26 UTC
josephboyle, tantek and skitchen joined the channel
#
tantek tommorris - IRC is much better for this kind of discussion than Twitter ;) https://twitter.com/tommorris/status/283723512827506688
#
@tommorris I wonder if @BarnabyWalters has had any followers on Twitter find the whole “replying on another site” thing weird... http://t.co/ACLdRuMf
#
tantek except that barnabywalters seems to be on Twitter more than IRC
#
tantek !tell barnabywalters why do you prefer attempting to converse via disconnected replies on Twitter (e.g. https://twitter.com/BarnabyWalters/status/283868762460012544 ) rather than on IRC where we can track conversations much more easily?
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
tantek tommorris - that discussion that barnabywalters linked to is why I've been using permashortids (instead of links) for quite some time on posts short enough to fit entirely on Twitter: http://tantek.com/w/Whistle#WhyuseshortidsinsteadofURLsinsyndicatednotes
#
tantek (this discussion: http://tantek.com/2011/010/b1/owning-your-data )
#
tommorris thanks tantek.
#
tommorris tantek: the problem I have with the permashortid things is that it has the ability to be more confusing than links. links are kind of the lingua franca of the web.
#
tommorris I've only had one person expressing disappointment when they click through to something on my personal site and it's just been a near replica of what my tweet says.
#
tommorris I'm thinking the solution to that is to have a page on my site explaining "so, this is why all my tweets have links back to my site" which would explain the reasoning behind it.
#
@BarnabyWalters @rektide agreed! We (#indiewebcamp) are building that return. Care to join in? http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page but most activity… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/763/
#
tantek tommorris - I had LOTS of complaints, from many friends about it. In particular many friends who's design/UX sensibilities I greatly respect so I kept redesigning until I came up with what I currently have.
#
tommorris the only real problem is that it *seems* spammy.
#
tantek the permashortid works as a search-link, that is, if you simply copy it with parantheses and google/search for that, my original post will be at the top of the results.
#
tantek yeah - overlinking does tend to make things look spammy.
#
tantek I also went through the iteration with the "/" instead of " " until Twitter started hyperlinking those.
#
tommorris just got to do his first Wikipedia death.
#
tantek what does that mean?
#
tommorris Gerry Anderson, creator of Thunderbirds and Stingray, just died. I happen to be the only admin who isn't in a post-Christmas drunken haze, so I changed the wiki and updated all the other stuff.
#
tommorris so, the indieweb reply thing is amazing. there's a few little tweaks I need to make, then I am going to transition to using it exclusively as my way of posting to twitter
#
tantek tommorris it doesn't appear to be setting the in-reply-to field in the API and thus threading conversations on Twitter.
#
tantek whereas aaronpk's indieweb reply code on his own site seems to do that properly
#
tommorris tantek: it should be now. the first few, it didn't.
#
tommorris I set in_reply_to_status_id
#
tommorris in fact, it extracts the first link that looks like a link to a Twitter status ID
#
tantek oh interesting ok
#
tantek that's a neat way of doing threading
#
tantek cool - will have to take a look!
skitchen and rektide joined the channel
#
rektide good morning/afternoon/evening/night everyone
#
Loqi morning. Clear and 38 degrees
#
rektide QSL
#
rektide i read ya
#
rektide @barnabywalters mentioned a pingback/trackback/linkback type system, which is in my interest domain
#
rektide and i seem to have been forwarded this rooms address
#
rektide so here i am. howdy all.
#
rektide in the spirit of the thing, allow me to provide a link-back to that event: http://twitter.com/BarnabyWalters/status/283957070921871361
#
@BarnabyWalters @rektide agreed! We (#indiewebcamp) are building that return. Care to join in? http://t.co/TYVDzWA6 but most activity… http://t.co/xD9HhwTG
#
tommorris hey rektide
#
tommorris so, mostly the work being done on that is the "IndieWeb Reply" extension
#
tommorris aaronpk and barnaby have been working on that
#
tommorris I've just started using it too, but they are probably the people to talk to about it
#
aaronpk rektide: I've been experimenting with pingbacks too. For now I'm collecting pingbacks on all my sites using a pingback service I wrote https://github.com/aaronpk/Pingback
#
aaronpk I set it up at pingback.me so I put a tag in all my sites and never have to write pingback xmlrpc code again
#
tommorris that's highly sensible.
#
aaronpk the idea is to add an API to that service and also web hooks so I can handle regular http posts when I get pings
#
aaronpk and there was some conversation about extending the pingback protocol to add things like conversation IDs so it can be used to reply to each other
#
tommorris the only thing pingback REALLY needs is something like Hashcash so it doesn't get spammed out.
#
aaronpk yea, that's the other half of the picture, some sort of anti-spam. but that shouldn't stop us from building something first which may be susceptible to spam
#
aaronpk also here is another take on anti-spam http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2011/07/31/1/indieweb-messaging
#
tommorris hashcash is very easy and doesn't require too much ping-pong between sites
#
tommorris using friend-of-friend whitelisting would help too.
#
tommorris so, you see how many hops it takes to go from one person to another using XFN etc. and use that as part of your anti-spam weighting
#
rektide friend of friending would be solid
#
rektide i could assert people that have already trusted me, and you could go lookup their .well-known to validate
#
rektide their service would keep track of their moderated approvals of my messages.
tantek joined the channel
#
aaronpk it would be nice if there was a way to do it without maintaining a friends list. I don't want to have to do that.
#
aaronpk it's hard enough for me to keep my facebook friends list up to date, I can't imagine anything else being easier than that
#
tommorris aaronpk: well, hence the reason for using blog rolls etc.
tantek_ joined the channel
#
tantek_ aaronpk - true enough. in practice it turns out that despite blogrolls being quite popular early on in blogging, they hardly ever got updated. too much cognitive social load, nevermind the potential social drama of adding or worse, dropping someone.
#
tantek_ that being said, your use of those you follow on Twitter as a proxy for this seemed to work better, since that's a "friends list" that you actively curate
#
tantek_ tommorris - I'm not seeing reply-threading on any of your syndicated reply-tweets with permalinks.
#
tantek_ the most recent @-reply from you that I see with a permalink to your original is this one: https://twitter.com/tommorris/status/283691863792295936
#
@tommorris @BarnabyWalters Not yet, but it should. I’m having to do a bit of tweakery to get it working. Problem I have with...... http://t.co/vG2hOs2m
#
tommorris tantek: hmm. I'll have to do a bit of debugging.
#
aaronpk tantek: good point about the people you follow on twitter. It would be worth figuring out why that's easier to maintain than a blogroll, and use that mechanism
#
aaronpk must be because I'm constantly remined of peopel I follow because their content appears in my stream
#
tantek aaronpk - I think it's because "people you follow on twitter" is a rough proxy for a type of real time communication (even if it is semi-broadcast - mix of want to follow and want to let them DM me)
#
aaronpk so I'm incentivised to add or remove people based on how much information I want to process in my stream
#
aaronpk also probable one aspect is that it takes a single click to follow someone
#
tantek yes, fewer UI steps helps :) http://tantek.com/log/2007/02.html#d19t1813
#
tantek I bet there are other "side effect" friends/followings lists we could potentially use
#
tommorris yep, if I want to follow you on Twitter, I type twitter.com/t then click "Follow"
#
tommorris compared to, going to my site, clicking on the blog roll link, clicking "edit", then finding the bit I want to add you in, then adding the HTML, then saving
#
tantek or if you're already in a text field that posts to twitter, just "follow t" - post.
#
aaronpk I was also thinking about seeding a potential "blogroll-like" list by going through all my notes and pulling out all the URLs I've linked to. That would be a good place for me to go through a list and say "yes/no" to each domain
#
tantek yes, people we link to might be a good proxy
#
tantek people we mention
#
aaronpk right
#
tantek because it's likely you want someone you mentioned in a post to have the ability to comment on your post.
#
tantek seems like a good bit of social balance
#
tantek at least if it's a public post
#
tommorris I may seed my blogroll from Twitter by just extracting all the URIs of people I follow
#
tantek private posts may be a different matter
#
Loqi EXTRACT ALL THE URIS http://loqi.me/62v
#
tantek tommorris - seeding is rarely the problem in this kind of system
#
tantek seeding is usually trivial. it's upkeep that's the problem.
#
aaronpk right. there has to be some sort of incentive for maintaining it
#
tommorris yup, but seeding gets you a long way towards actually using anything you build. ;-)
#
tantek other sources of implied followings: people you txt/iMessage, people you send email to
#
tommorris new gTLDs: https://www.name.com/new-gtld-guide
#
tommorris .secure - who the hell thought that was a good idea?
#
tommorris like, PayPal.secure will be the first thing some huckster registers.
#
aaronpk .app I understand
#
aaronpk will stop all the blahblahapp.com domains
#
tantek no. these are all layer violations.
#
tommorris indeed.
#
aaronpk oh jeez https://www.name.com/new-gtld <-- full list
#
tantek looks up a ref.
#
tantek here you go: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaeru/875369568/
#
tommorris had a big ol' grumble about .gay a while back.
#
tommorris and an extended grumble about .xxx, .mobi and .tel
#
aaronpk hahahaha
#
Loqi nice
#
aaronpk tantek++
#
Loqi tantek has 6 karma
#
tommorris http://tommorris.org/posts/2522 and http://blog.tommorris.org/post/3968125126/tel-xxx-and-mobi-are-all-pointless-and-idiotic
#
aaronpk "What people remember is the string between "www" and ".com." So if there is a .info or a .biz after it, that would just confuse them."
#
tommorris I've seen people on podcasts struggle with .com and .org
#
tommorris well, technically, heard them.
#
tantek tommorris, right, and more gTLDs would make it worse.
#
aaronpk .Site? really?
#
tantek hahaha - that has to be a troll
#
tantek (expensive troll, but still)
#
tommorris .flickr is on the full list.
#
tommorris and .sex, despite the existence of .xxx
#
tantek so far I've only heard one good reason for one specific gTLD - and that's to enable a bridge to a peer-to-peer DNS system.
#
aaronpk I like how Germany has four -- .Bayern, .Berlin, .Hamburg, .Koeln
#
tantek (came up with that during a lunchtime conversation with TimBL at the 2011 TPAC in Santa Clara)
#
tommorris .store kinda makes sense - apple.store - but then there's rim.jobs
#
tantek hahaha
#
tantek tommorris - nah, any page can be a point of sale
#
tommorris that reminds me, we're gonna have to change all the link extractor regexes. oh joy.
#
tommorris IRCcloud links rim.jobs but not apple.store
#
tantek uh, no. I'm specifically making a policy decision to tell the new domains to go F themselves (as tommorris might say)
#
aaronpk .canon made it in
#
tommorris there's .democrat and .republican
#
aaronpk this is ridiculous
#
tommorris plans on registering not.gay and then redirecting it to whichever politician last got caught with their pants down in an airport men's room.
#
tantek the CASSIS auto_link_re specifically leaves out .jobs and .mobi for example.
#
tantek https://github.com/tantek/cassis/blob/master/cassis.js
#
tantek / .mobi .jobs deliberately excluded to discourage layer violations.
#
tantek // .mobi .jobs deliberately excluded to discourage layer violations.
#
aaronpk how is this one going to work? test.קוֹם
#
aaronpk it pasted the letters in reverse order into my terminal for example
#
tommorris so, presumably the same way IDNs currently work
#
tommorris which is there is a mapping from the Unicode to a x-- string
#
aaronpk which way do you type the letters when mixing english and hebrew letters?
#
aaronpk like if I wanted to type test.קוֹם in my browser address bar
#
tommorris confusingly. ;-)
#
tommorris so, Twitter supports RTL hashtags. like קוֹם#
#
tommorris last year, the Wikipedia banners that appeared in English but on Hebrew and Arabic Wikipedia caused some real strange bug reports.
#
tantek have any of you ever memorized the printable ASCII alphabet?
#
tommorris nope, sadly.
#
tantek is considering it as yet-another-geek-skill for 2013
#
tommorris aaronpk: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5893
#
aaronpk oh man
#
aaronpk apparently I don't actually care enough to read that :P
#
tantek I've already taught my nephews ISO 8601 dates, the older, *ordinal* ISO dates. units of time and distance. might be time to teach them the *ASCII* alphabet (because A-Z is kids play). but of course that would require me memorizing it first.
#
rektide aaronpk: i concur that any interaction with a URL is a good artifact to start building trust upon
#
rektide (async reply re: trust circles)
#
tantek regarding indieweb identity, reasons why, this is interesting (involuntary identity consolidation) https://twitter.com/mattcornell/status/283344964228902912
#
@mattcornell Dear @Google, this is fucked up and bullshit. http://t.co/swdT2xan
#
tantek also, long thread is looong
#
tommorris yeah, saw that the other day
#
tommorris I have a YouTube account pretty much for two things: so I can "favourite" things and be able to find them again and to upload a few screencast videos
#
tantek tommorris - this is good: http://blog.tommorris.org/post/3968125126/tel-xxx-and-mobi-are-all-pointless-and-idiotic - I see it's still on Tumblr - what's your plan for porting your Tumblr posts to your own archives?
#
tommorris posts have all been imported. then I point blog.tommorris.org to a resolver URL which looks up in the database the new URL and redirects
#
tommorris I just need to get on and do it
#
tantek ok cool, so just that last bit remains to be done. nice
#
tantek looking forward to the redirects :)
#
tommorris I need to move off Heroku first.
#
tantek bbiab
skitchen and barnabywalters joined the channel
#
Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 9 hours, 35 minutes ago: why do you prefer attempting to converse via disconnected replies on Twitter (e.g. https://twitter.com/BarnabyWalters/status/283868762460012544 ) rather than on IRC where we can track conversations much more easily?
#
barnabywalters heh, I don’t. I’m just not in the habit of having colloquy open all the time yet
#
aaronpk barnabywalters: have you used this before? http://www.slimframework.com/
#
aaronpk i'm trying out my first attempt at using composer and a decent php app framework
#
aaronpk cause i've been liking Sinatra for ruby so much
#
tommorris there's so many nice Sinatra-like frameworks now.
#
aaronpk for php?
#
barnabywalters aaronpk: my preferred sinatra-style PHP framework is Silex
#
tommorris doesn't use PHP.
#
tommorris Scalatra is lovely though.
#
barnabywalters based on the symfony components, it’s extremely stable
#
barnabywalters not used slim, so can’t really judge whether or not it’s as modern as Silex
#
aaronpk ah ok
#
aaronpk seems to be actively in development https://github.com/codeguy/Slim
#
aaronpk also requires php > 5.3.0 which is nice :)
#
barnabywalters I draw the line at 5.3. Anything earlier is too much of a headache
#
aaronpk lol
#
tommorris does love the built-in web server in 5.4
#
barnabywalters yeah, it’s nice to be able to go from zero to composer and a running copy of silex in three commands
#
tommorris well, for big applications like MediaWiki, it makes inducting new developers a lot easier because they don't have to install and setup Apache
#
aaronpk interesting point
#
aaronpk i've always thought built-in servers were weird, took me a while to get used to "running my app" in ruby too
#
aaronpk but then i've always set up apache/nginx in the past so it's not a big deal
#
barnabywalters well, I would certainly recommend Silex as a PHP mini-framework. It’s super-testable. What’s it for?
#
aaronpk really simple site i'm making, so I can drop wordpress for 500lattes.aaron.pk
#
aaronpk also it's a chance to experiment with some more modern php stuff since i've been doing so much ruby lately
#
tommorris it's good practice from Javaland. forces you to not make any assumptions about the server you are running on.
#
aaronpk barnabywalters: how do you handle views and templates with silex?
#
barnabywalters talking of good practises from javaland, I think that is pretty much what fabien potencier did with Symfony. Took a load of patterns and practises from java and applied them to PHP
#
barnabywalters aaronpk: however you want, Twig is the official templating language
#
aaronpk ah. that would have been useful to mention what the heck "Twig" is on this page http://silex.sensiolabs.org/documentation
#
barnabywalters Silex uses the Request and Response objects from Symfony HttpFoundation, so any templating language which works with Symfony should be a drop-in replacement for Twig
#
aaronpk oh, ew, I don't want to use a templating language
#
barnabywalters no problem, just return a string and it’ll be used as the response body
#
barnabywalters or if you want more control, you return a Response object
#
aaronpk i may be able to be convinced, but i'd rather just stick to php
#
barnabywalters for the lattes one, simple PHP or static HTML is likely to be more effective
#
aaronpk yea I thought about just writing some dumb php includes, but then I thought it would be a good change to experiment with a framework of some kind
#
barnabywalters tommorris: how are you finding indieweb reply?
#
barnabywalters I’m just fixing the encoding bug
#
tommorris awesome, I need to install it in Firefox. I'm just testing it in Chrome.
#
barnabywalters last time I tried it in firefox it broke, so I’ll have a look at that too
#
tommorris I wanted to just see whether it worked in my non-primary browser.
#
tommorris 'cos I'm a bit of a weirdo about Firefox plugins, given I run Aurora and don't like my browser breaking.
#
tommorris (which, you know, is stupid, if I didn't like my browser breaking, I wouldn't be using Aurora, but whatever.)
tantek joined the channel
#
barnabywalters okay, I just pushed a change which fixes the weird characters, and I checked in FF and the latest build works, so it should be okay now
#
tantek hey barnabywalters - good to see you here again :)
#
barnabywalters tantek: ha ha ha ;) Hey tantek. I should put colloquy on auto-launch
#
tantek :D
#
@AlfonsoRomay @gallir ¿Y por qué hacerlo en un servicio externo teniendo tu propio blog/dominio? La #indieWeb que promulga @t http://alfonsoromay.com/2012/07/movimientos-hacia-una-web-independiente/
#
tantek oh cool - thanks Alfonso Romay!
#
tommorris reaches for Google Translate.
#
tommorris "El viejo sueño de Diaspora, que no llegó a cuajar". Ha.
#
tommorris "The old dream of Diaspora , which did not materialize"
#
barnabywalters heh. to be fair, D* worked. It just had… problems
#
barnabywalters and was aiming for the wrong goal, like pretty much every other FedSocWeb project
#
tommorris Ah, but the dream didn't materialize, as they so often don't.
#
aaronpk barnabywalters: I think this is what I'm going with for a templating thing http://phpsavant.com/docs/
#
barnabywalters aaronpk: for templating I generally use plain PHP templates. I used form.format.php as the filename, for example h-feed.html.php for a HTML blog post listing, and h-feed.atom+xml.php for an ATOM version
#
aaronpk cool. yea this seems to be pretty close to plain php, but lets you set variables from the controllers
#
barnabywalters I prefer just exposing the variables from the controller in an anonymous function and including the file, saving the buffered output
#
barnabywalters no need for special libraries that way — the templates are completely reusable
#
barnabywalters a
#
aaronpk example?
#
barnabywalters sandeepshetty’s phpish templating library is pretty similar to what I do: https://github.com/phpish/template
#
barnabywalters all you really need is this: https://gist.github.com/4382968
#
barnabywalters where $data is an assoc. array of variable names => values to expose to the template
#
barnabywalters https://gist.github.com/4382985 is a more complete example
#
aaronpk ah interesting
#
barnabywalters I then have a load of helper functions which get autoloaded into the template file, for doing things like escaping data and producing elements and such. THey’re available on packagist. https://github.com/barnabywalters/php-helpers
melvster joined the channel
#
melvster hi all does indie web have an app platform?
#
tommorris melvster: what do you mean?
#
melvster tommorris: something along the lines of facebook app platform, where I can add an app to my profile, and browse the apps other people are using ...
#
tommorris oh no.
#
barnabywalters melvster: most of us are just running PHP or ruby apps on our own servers. There isn’t really a platform as such
#
tommorris indieweb is just a bunch of folks posting stuff on their own sites. and then we tentatively find ways to link them together by cobbling together whatever standards there are.
#
tommorris everyone has their own slightly different take on it. the common thing is mostly microformats + ActivityStreams + pubsubhubbub
#
tommorris adds some RDFa in to the mix because he's a semweb dork.
#
melvster tommorris: barnabywalters: yes sounds great, it's just that I remember the facebook platform really started to take off when they allowed you to add apps to your profile
#
tommorris well, there aren't really any "apps" to speak of.
#
barnabywalters melvster: so here I would be inclined to ask: what is the problem being solved?
#
barnabywalters if it’s simply ease of installing software, that is something none of us have really gone to a huge effort to fix (yet)
#
barnabywalters as most of us are building software which works for us, then open-sourcing the useful bits in libraries or such things
#
melvster barnabywalters: making profiles richer and more social, e.g. games, entertainment, pokes, quizzes, business, payments etc.
#
melvster tommorris: i also use rdfa on my profile
#
barnabywalters so the indieweb equivalent of a "profile" is pretty much your homepage
#
tommorris I think that kind of thing was what OpenSocial was shooting for.
#
tommorris a sort of apps platform in JavaScript that people could implement.
#
melvster barnabywalters: yes exactly, i love the homepage as your profile concept, because it's something you control, id also love to see things becoming richer more social, with real interactions between members ...
#
melvster yes, i used to follow opensocial a few years back, even built a website for it
#
melvster but it became kind of monolithic and perhaps didnt quite get the adoption it would have liked
#
aaronpk it occurs to me that the Dwolla "payment" button could be considered an "app" for your profile: http://developers.dwolla.com/dev/docs/button#ux
#
aaronpk melvster: is that the kind of thing you had in mind?
#
melvster aaronpk: dwollar integration would be super cool if it's possible, tho you could just have your bitcoin address on there :P
#
aaronpk melvster: what I mean is you can just put that button on your home page right now, a sort of "app"
#
melvster aaronpk: ah i see, yes, that makes sense ... some kind of widget technology, let me look more closely
#
tantek melvster, the indieweb app platform is just the web platform: html+microformats+css+js
#
tommorris melvster: so I think eventually, there'll be a sort of "indieweb distribution", a bit like a Linux distribution like Ubuntu.
#
tantek tommorris - I don't expect there to be any *one* indieweb distro
#
tantek more like numerous distros
#
tommorris oh sure, there are plenty of different Linux distributions
#
tantek with different approaches depending on which itches were being scratched
#
tantek and across different languages
#
tommorris there'll be some nice Ubuntuish type thing for sane people, and then something like Gentoo for all us weird semweb dorks.
#
melvster freedombox is trying to do a social distribution where you host your own profile
#
tantek I expect we'll see much more diversity this time around
#
tantek melvster - who on the freedombox project runs their own identity online using freedombox?
#
melvster jonas smedegaardt
#
tantek URL?
#
melvster i think something like http://dr.jones.dk/
#
melvster also http://http://dr.jones.dk/me/#me
#
melvster oops
#
melvster http://dr.jones.dk/me/#me
#
aaronpk that appears to be hosted at http://bytemark.co.uk/
#
tommorris he's going for a complete server stack from operating system on down.
#
melvster yeah he even hosts chat rooms
#
tommorris well, let's solve the web identity problem first. eventually, maybe, real-time communication might be a useful thing to do too.
#
tommorris self-hosted XMPP type stuff.
#
aaronpk or IRC :)
#
melvster ive been doing realtime communication for 1-2 years :)
#
tommorris a lot of people were preaching XMPP and so on, but I always thought WebHooks were so much simpler and preferable.
#
aaronpk IRC + webhooks ftw
#
melvster i use retroshare for encrypted realtime chat, using my web identity, and the GPG key that's tied to my homepage
#
melvster in fact you can do it in the browser too
#
melvster if you install dooble
#
melvster once you see realtime encrypted chat straight in the browser, you'll wonder why *every* browser doesnt do it
#
melvster you can even play chess over it!
#
melvster but right now im interested in what is out there for indieweb users so that they can start using apps as part of their web footprint ... seems there does not seem to be an exciting app eco system, so maybe we can build one ...
#
aaronpk i'm still not quite understanding what is the driver for this idea
#
aaronpk ease of installation? ease of discovery?
#
tommorris I think there's probably a mismatch between the sort of people who hang out in this here channel and the sort of people who play Facebook games.
#
aaronpk https://github.com/indieweb/ and http://libreprojects.net/ are a good start
#
melvster aaronpk: just makes profiles a little bit more fun imho ... you may remember facebook before they had an app eco system, it was a bit boring, with a few pokes and status updates, once apps came into the mix, you had things like first the zombies, then mafia wars, then farmville, then 1000s of great apps engaging people and making the platform more interesting...
#
tommorris indiefarmville may one day happen, but I don't think tantek, barnaby, aaron or myself are the sort of people who want to play it. ;-)
#
tommorris I may be presumptuous though.
#
tommorris I certainly don't play any Facebook games or use any apps on Facebook.
#
aaronpk ... I wouldn't exactly call zombies, mafia wars and farmville "engaging" ...
#
aaronpk I stayed away from those on facebook with a 10 foot pole. that's 3 meters for my friends overseas.
#
tommorris I think hypertext 3D worlds might be interesting though.
#
melvster i think more man hours has been put into farmville that it took to build the pyramids!
#
melvster my sister is mad about farmville
#
tommorris <link rel="alternate me" href="/index.3dformat" title="My 3D home" />
#
tommorris imagine, Second Life with yhperlinks.
#
aaronpk oh god no 3D please. i'll stick to boring 2D home pages thanks
#
aaronpk unless it's actual 3D, like in a holosuite. then i'm down
#
tommorris hey, people paid good money for all of about three months in order to build 3D homes in Second Life.
#
tommorris and Reuters sent a reporter into Second Life. and big brands like American Apparel set up Second Life shops.
#
barnabywalters personally I think there are simpler and more interesting problems to be solved (robust conversation models which we all implement, for example) than building yet another online game platform
#
tommorris and Ph.D students wrote about it with some very long words and complex postmodern feminist theories.
#
tommorris and now it's pretty much just furries have virtual sex.
#
melvster tommorris: secondlife with hyperlinks, you should look at opensim, they were talking about adding that feature
#
tommorris in a post-apocalyptic virtual wasteground.
#
aaronpk tommorris: that is the best description of secondlife i've ever heard hahahaha
#
aaronpk tommorris++
#
Loqi tommorris has 2 karma
#
melvster http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Mar/0004.html
#
melvster i used to follow the linden dollar :)
#
tommorris I once knew a guy in Second Life who would buy up land next to celebrities virtual homes, and set up lighthouses. and at the top of the lighthouses, he'd built a little platform where people would sit around on virtual toilets. and then he'd pay strippers to dance on top of the lighthouse.
#
barnabywalters The Hypergrid? wow
#
tommorris I thought VRML would give us a hypergrid. ;-)
#
tommorris sadly it wasn't to be.
#
tommorris there are actually some quite compelling use cases for things like WebGL.
#
barnabywalters tommorris: the only reference I’ve ever seen to VRML was in an ancient HTML book. Did it ever work or gain any traction?
#
tommorris I used it once in Netscape 3 (Gold!)
#
tommorris And, no.
#
tommorris But with WebGL, it'd be really great for Wikipedia. I have this strange fantasy that a school child will one day visit the Wikipedia article on Velociraptors and download a virtual 3D model of a raptor into her browser's 3D "object box", sort of a bit like bookmarks.
#
barnabywalters tommorris: and then print it out on the school’s 3D printer!
#
tommorris then she'd hop over to the Wikipedia article on Wembley Stadium and try to fit as many raptors into Wembley Stadium as she can.
#
barnabywalters that would be amazing and make computing much more tangible
#
tommorris (and then we'd show an animation of raptors running loose and killing fans. or perhaps not.)
#
melvster iron this on .... http://shutupandtakemymoney.com/ask-me-about-my-t-rex-shirt/
#
tommorris well, we have crappy little animated GIFs on Wikipedia to illustrate things like car engines.
#
tommorris with something like WebGL, we'd have an object, and it'd have a little blob of JavaScript to give it some motion and controls.
#
tommorris and that object would have a URL, so people could reference it elsewhere...
#
barnabywalters SVG + js and/or SVG animations would be a great 2D version of that
#
tantek tommorris - yeah, I don't of anyone for whom and indiefarmville is an itch they're looking to scratch.
#
tommorris indeed. I don't think Wikimedia is yet doing SVG animations
#
melvster indiemafiawars would be awesome!
#
melvster i play a *lot* of facebook games
#
tommorris okay, a perhaps more practical version is something that can take advantage of the grid: event listings aggregators, job search, dating
#
tommorris s/the grid/the web/
#
Loqi tommorris meant to say: okay, a perhaps more practical version is something that can take advantage of the web: event listings aggregators, job search, dating
#
melvster ok quick example: what about a calendar app that's completely indie?
#
melvster where you can even share calendar events with other people?
#
melvster without having to use google calendar
#
melvster or icalendar
#
barnabywalters melvster: already possible if you host your own CalDAV server
#
barnabywalters I am doing that right now
#
melvster ah interesting
#
barnabywalters I use CardDAV and CalDAV instead of iCloud or other services
#
aaronpk i can create an "event" by making a web page and marking it up with appropriate syntax, then when barnabywalters vists the page, he can do whatever he wants with it
#
melvster does it have a web front end? can i log in and see?
#
barnabywalters melvster: no web front end because I use OS-integrated UIs like AddressBook
#
barnabywalters but you can see the output from it…
#
tommorris aaronpk: I think a lot of what needs to be done that existing solutions aren't doing is pass-by-reference rather than pass-by-value. so, I can *take* an hCard or hCalendar and put it on my phone or whatnot. but being able to use the thing with the URL is far more interesting to me.
#
barnabywalters Here is my address book with XFN data: http://waterpigs.co.uk/contacts
#
barnabywalters I use it for auto-suggest and auto-insertion of h-card markup when publishing
#
melvster ah nice
#
melvster what I'd love to see is:
#
melvster 1) you visit someone's indie home page
#
melvster 2) you see 'these are the apps that this person is using'
#
melvster 3) click here to add this app to your profile
#
melvster something like that
#
tantek.com created /posts (+373) "stub" (view diff)
#
melvster then for the apps to be socially enabled, just like facebook is
#
barnabywalters the closest we have to that at the moment is:
#
barnabywalters 1) You visit someone’s indieweb homepage
#
barnabywalters 2) They link to the project/code they’re using
#
barnabywalters 3) You install it on a server
#
tantek melvster, what's the difference between "add this app to your profile", and "add this link to your profile" - since any web page can be an "app"?
#
barnabywalters 4) It might be socially "enabled", e.g. through pingbacks, distributed editing of articles, etc
#
tommorris yep, I think that kind of thing is a *looooong* way off.
#
tommorris and quite a long way outside of the scope of indiewebcamp.
#
aaronpk barnabywalters: what do you use for database abstraction if any?
#
tantek.com created /hAtom (+180) "stub" (view diff)
#
melvster tommorris: why do you think it's a loooong way off?
#
barnabywalters aaronpk: I’m generally using Doctrine at the moment. First ORM I’ve ever used, so I have nothing to compare it to, but I like it
#
tommorris melvster: well, we're just getting things like replies and trackback-type stuff working.
#
tantek.com created /microformat (+26) "r" (view diff)
#
barnabywalters melvster: what we’re doing at the moment really is building on the foundations which blogging provide, but trying to refine UX, content type scope, and other such problems
#
aaronpk barnabywalters: cool, saw some good things about it. also people seem to like redbean
#
tantek.com created /archives (+150) "stub" (view diff)
#
barnabywalters aaronpk: as far as I can see, the biggest choice is between ActiveRecord pattern, and whatever the technical name for the pattern Doctrine uses, with an entityManager
#
melvster reply is surely just HTTP POST?
#
barnabywalters melvster: yeah, but it’s a bit more complicated than that
#
melvster K.I.S.S. :D
#
barnabywalters HTTP POST what data, to what endpoint, spam-filtered how, etc
#
tantek.com created /h-entry (+227) "stub" (view diff)
#
aaronpk barnabywalters: cool, I like the DataMapper pattern more than ActiveRecord
#
barnabywalters aaronpk: is that the proper name? I like it because I don’t have to inherit from a particular base class to get functionality.
#
tantek.com edited /posts (-1) "-." (view diff)
#
melvster http post with the same fields as email, ie to, from, title, message ... then post it to your indiewebpage, or follow your nose to an endpoint if you can do that ... spam is an orthogonal problem ... 4 big systems did not start out with spam protection are http, email, telephone and postal service
#
melvster facebook do everything with HTTP POST and it's cross origin by design
#
melvster Tier 1: add friend / send message / friend request
#
barnabywalters melvster: so you’re proposing something completely new, where all the data is on-the-wire instead of publicly available. Well, get a working implementation up and running and I’ll make an interoperable one
#
barnabywalters Current indieweb efforts in this area are: pingback and a simpler, HTTP-based pingback (i.e. what pingback should have been)
#
melvster Tier 2: Post to news feed
#
melvster Tier 3 : Add an app, Set up app permissions
#
melvster Tier 4 : payments
#
melvster they only have 7 REST APIs
#
melvster barnabywalters: pingback sounds like a very good idea
#
melvster barnabywalters: i dont mind too much if data is on the wire or passed by reference
#
melvster passing by reference can be more efficient sometimes
#
barnabywalters melvster: already implemented by possibly millions of sites, which is a bonus ;) This is the draft spec for the HTTP version: https://github.com/converspace/webmention
#
barnabywalters melvster: I am much more inclined to trust passed-by-reference data
#
aaronpk barnabywalters: whoa I haven't seen webmention yet! didn't realize he wrote it up on a nice looking site!
#
melvster web mention looks very cool
#
barnabywalters I am currently working on a robust mentions model for my own site — pingback first, then webmention, both feeding into the same table.
#
barnabywalters then, I make my mentions available as a PuSH-subscribable feed, and ditch twitter as my notifications client
#
aaronpk is it basically pingback with the xmlrpc part unwrapped?
#
barnabywalters aaronpk: yes
#
barnabywalters pure HTTP ;)
#
aaronpk nice
#
aaronpk i should add that to pingback.me
#
melvster we have something quite similar here: http://www.w3.org/community/rww/wiki/Pingback
#
Loqi agreed.
#
barnabywalters aaronpk: are you currently doing anything with the pingbacks you receive/sending out pingbacks?
#
tommorris spots a typo on the W3C wiki, goes to fix.
#
aaronpk i'm logging them to a DB right now and I look at them a couple times a month to see what's there
#
aaronpk I haven't started sending out pingbacks yet :(
#
melvster tommorris: thanks!
#
barnabywalters it’d be great to get your site, tommorris’s and my own exchanging pingbacks
#
aaronpk agreed!
#
tommorris oh bollocks, my W3C login is playing up.
#
melvster tommorris: you may need to be part of the community group ...
#
melvster tho im not 100% sure
#
tommorris oh, it's the RWW wiki.
#
aaronpk tommorris: this seems to be a simliar page http://www.w3.org/wiki/Pingback
#
barnabywalters off to bed. goodnight everyone!
#
Loqi buenas noches
#
tommorris is having enough trouble with Wikipedia, let alone more wikis.
#
melvster lol
#
tantek tommorris - see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fedsocweb/2012Dec/0002.html
#
tantek I'm battling this divergent wiki problem at w3c one wg/cg/ig a a time :/
#
tommorris would pile-on such a discussion but probably isn't part of the right group to do so.
#
tantek actually, fedsocweb is the closest community group that w3c has to #indiewebcamp
#
tantek might be worth piling onto that one ;)
#
tantek hey everyone, go here and click the "Join" button: http://www.w3.org/community/fedsocweb/ :)
#
tommorris can we just move all of W3C to one giant wiki? and give me +sysop. ;-)
#
tommorris HTML5 will be done so much quicker if I can start blocking people
#
aaronpk https://www.w3.org/accounts/request
#
aaronpk lols at the giant organization dropdown
#
aaronpk Esri isn't on there :(
#
aaronpk they are now
#
aaronpk account requested
#
tantek nice
#
tantek tommorris - that's my goal (move all of W3C to one giant wiki - w3.org/wiki in particular)
#
tantek any and all help appreciated.
#
tantek on that other nerdy tangent - why do we still teach kids (in the US at least) just "the alphabet" instead of the entire printable ASCIIbet?
#
tantek btw ASCIIbet (or asciibet) appears to be an existing term used on a few pages, but I can't seem to find a canonical definition
#
aaronpk probably because they are at that point learning english, not programming?
#
tommorris The jargon file has an entry for ASCIIbetical order - ordered by collation sequence rather than simply alphabetic order. The difference being - alphabetic (AaBbCc..Zz), asciibetic (ABC..Zabc..z)
#
tantek what's the point of only learning english?
#
tantek oh I found this: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ASCIIbetical
#
tommorris Wiktionary is a wonderful site. I added citations for the early uses of the word "vajazzle"
#
tantek Sex & The City?
#
tommorris nah, found earlier uses on Google Books
#
tommorris we also found the history of the word "webcam"
#
tommorris earliest use we could find was the US Air Force put up a website with a webcam and announced it on USENET
#
tantek earliest definition of asciibet I could find: http://www.mail-archive.com/linuxers@ilug-bom.org/msg05239.html
#
tommorris that was when people announced websites on mailing lists and USENET
#
tantek though I'd modify that to the printable subset starting with ! and ending with ~
#
tantek though I suppose since alphabet was named after the first two letters (a - alpha, b- beta), the printable asciibet equivalent would be something like bangquote
#
tantek another variant would be using the first/last characters
#
tantek e.g. bangtilda. dropping the trailing 'a' the way alphabeta drops the trailing 'a' to get alphabet, we get bangtild as an alternative name for the printable asciibet
#
tantek any preferences? asciibet vs. bangquote vs. bangtild vs. bangtilda
#
tantek or something else?
#
aaronpk i think asciibet is good because it alliterates to what it is
#
tantek I'm leaning toward asciibet as it's been used previously, and it sounds similar to alphabet.
#
tantek is it still alliteration when the suffix is similar instead of the prefix?
#
aaronpk if I heard "bangquote" for the first time I would think it's some sort of symbol like an interrobang ”½
#
tantek yeah
#
tantek ok, it's about the syllable(s) that are emphasized http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliteration
#
aaronpk "In language, alliteration is the repetition of a particular sound in the prominent lifts (or stressed syllables) of a series of words or phrases."
#
tantek so bet is stressed more in alphabet
#
tantek so that makes sense, yes, alliteration.
#
tantek thanks aaronpk, asciibet it is
#
aaronpk whoa, there's an asciibet function here ftp://ii.best.vwh.net/dotplan/dotplan.c
#
tommorris makes nerd gang symbol.
#
tantek ok, first New Year's resolution for 2013 done
#
tantek http://tantek.com/2012/361/t1/nerd-trick-2013-memorizing-asciibet-helvetica
#
tantek or rather, *resolved*. we'll see how long it takes to actually accomplish.
#
aaronpk I like the way that sounds. "First New Year's resolution resolved"
#
tommorris really needs to steal Tantek's (old-school) Flickr-esque next/prev links
#
tantek :D
#
aaronpk yea those are good
#
tantek casually mentions &#x2190
#
tantek and &#x2192
#
tantek ;)
#
tommorris I'd add that to my new year's resolutions list, but compared with "spend 20 minutes on the damn exercise bike every day", it's kind of a category mismatch.
#
tantek I've already been practicing writing 0-9A-Za-z in Helvetica, so this won't be that much more to add.
#
tantek BTW - for those of you that haven't yet done so, check out your https://twitter.com/settings/account and near the bottom of the page there may be a "Your Twitter archive" section with a ( Request your archive ) button. Click it. You're welcome. :)
#
tantek.com created /twitter (+21) "r" (view diff)
#
aaronpk doesn't have it yet :(
#
tommorris tantek: not yet active for me.
#
tantek.com edited /Twitter (+470) "How to Download all your tweets" (view diff)
#
tantek I didn't have it a couple of weeks ago so it's fairly new for me.
#
aaronpk I still can't believe Facebook sends out emails on every little action people do on your profile. Their email servers must be a giant firehose of crap coming out of them
friedcell joined the channel
#
aaronpk tantek: do you syndicate content to facebook?
#
tantek via Twitter
#
tantek tantek.com -> twitter.com -> facebook.com
#
aaronpk ah interesting
#
aaronpk through the twitter feature?
#
tantek insufficient marginal utility in writing a custom POSSE syndicator to FB.
#
tantek yes
#
aaronpk it does the embedded content nicely
#
aaronpk yea I haven't written anything yet either. So far I've done it be occasionally clicking "like" on my own posts
#
tommorris the Facebook API is also needlessly complicated IMHO. loads more registering for apps and stuff. Twitter is easy peasy.
#
aaronpk that turns into this with my open graph tags: https://brennannovak.com/uploads/snapper/IndieWeb_UI_lotta_AaronPK.png
#
aaronpk I don't know if I want all my posts to go to Facebook though...
#
aaronpk meh i'll give it a shot, let facebook sort out which people like which of my content
skitchen joined the channel
#
tantek aaronpk another reason I don't mind just feeding Twitter to FB is that then FB just gets abbreviated summaries.
#
tantek Adactio uses IFTTT to POSSE from his site to FB.
#
aaronpk from RSS?
#
tantek goes back to the wiki again
#
aaronpk oh yea Facebook has a way to do RSS -> FB, right?
#
tantek.com created /facebook (+22) "r" (view diff)
#
tommorris aaronpk: no, they used to. then they turned it off.
#
aaronpk oh darn
#
tommorris you used to be able to point the Notes app to an RSS feed.
#
aaronpk yea, that
#
aaronpk why'd they kill it?
#
tommorris probably too-much-cost-to-support vs. only geeks using it
#
aaronpk true
#
aaronpk ifttt ftw
#
tommorris I've just been playing with PeerIndex, which is a let's-infer-stuff-based-on-your-social-media-profiles
#
tommorris it seems to have decided I'm influential in: Museums, Publishing, Social Networking, GLBT, Ruby Programming, Law, Science, Meditation, Backpacking, Politics, Social Issues and Conservative Party.
#
tommorris Quite where it's managed to find Meditation, Backpacking or Publishing from, I have no idea.
#
tommorris and tantek is apparently "influenced" by microformats. ;-)
#
tantek lulz
#
aaronpk lol
#
tantek sounds recursive
#
tommorris and by indiewebcamp too, actuallly.
#
tommorris and some actual humans: Zeldman, kevinmarks, adactio, Jared Spool, erinjo etc.
#
tantek.com created /User:Adactio.com (+32) "stub" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /Facebook (+730) "POSSE out to - let me iterate the ways we do this right now" (view diff)
#
aaronpk ok let's see how this ifttt atom->fb thing goes.
#
aaronpk uhoh, I hope it doesn't go post all my old notes