#indiewebcamp 2013-01-10

2013-01-10 UTC
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tantek cool.
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tantek yeah, re: Diaspora - I have mixed feelings about that project. I met all the founders, and they were wonderful, optimistic (even if a bit naive, which had some benefits too), warm, caring, compassionate. All this stuff you don't usually associate with open source projects.
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tommorris ha.
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tommorris the idea that wikipedia will take it up is basically the death-knell. software-wise, wikipedians are very conservative in adoption.
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tantek I mean sure, don't bother setting up a pod today. However, I tend to cut the founders a lot of slack. They took on a lot, the media overhyped them beyond their control, they bore far too much responsibility (and it cost them :( and our community)
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tommorris yes, that was probably over-mean. I should probably moderate it slightly
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tantek probably a better subject for in-person conversation. suffice it to say, I'm rooting for whatever the ex-Diasporans decide to put themselves to.
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donpdonp i give Diapora a ton of credit. it actually works and is actually federated. sites talk to each other. i get notifications of messages about me on other sites. nothing ive seen does what they did.
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tantek they're great people and I'll always respect what they tried to do, and what they actually *did* do (I mean, they did ship something that did quite a bit).
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tantek donpdonp - that's great to hear - I hadn't heard much first person account of that
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donpdonp https://poddery.com/people/4d190bf8df1cc963f1000146
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donpdonp and the first thing in my poddery newsfeed is poddery is shutting down...
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donpdonp ha.
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donpdonp checks for the last commit date on github
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donpdonp its still active. https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/commits/develop
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tantek donpdonp while you're here, hope to see you in June? http://indiewebcamp.com/2013
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donpdonp tantek: for shizzle
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tantek Creator, add thyself: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Guest_List#Creators
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tantek :)
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donpdonp apparently I suck https://indieauth.com/auth/failure?message=invalid_credentials
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donpdonp i'll look into that in a minute :)
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tantek donpdonp - feel free to ping aaronpk as well if the error messages aren't sufficiently actionable ;)
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donpdonp tantek: ah good :) im not sure which rel=me its complaining about
josephboyle, brennannovak, tilgovi, spinnerin, donpdonp, tantek, eschnou, andreypopp, friedcell, adactio, mxuribe, tommorris and erinjo joined the channel
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Loqi erinjo: tantek left you a message on 10/9 at 12:45pm: good to see you back in IRC, this is where all the real discussion happens. ;)
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tantek LOL
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tantek welcome back erinjo!
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erinjo :-)
brennannovak, stereoket, barnabywalters, josephboyle, tilgovi, tommorris, erinjo, morrocco_mole and eschnou joined the channel
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eschnou erinjo, thanks for your comment :-)
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erinjo eschnou Hi! I glad to hear you're working on Storytlr for indieweb people
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barnabywalters hey erinjo, great to see you on IRC :)
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erinjo :-)
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eschnou yeah, I should have done it long ago, not much was missing for storytlr to comply to indieweb standards :-)
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eschnou it's a nice community, I see a good momentum building up, I'll try to be more active and help push ideas forward.
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erinjo echnou No. I think I originally stumbled on it after my SweetCron installs had died and I was looking for other lifestream options
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eschnou cool, that's been a while then :-)
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erinjo eschnou Yeah...
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eschnou what are you using on your site now ? is it a wordpress plugin ?
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barnabywalters and welcome eschnou :) I’d not come across storytlr until a week or so ago, and I like what I see
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eschnou erinjo, and you have a storytlr in the pull section, awesome !! I'm finally catching up on issues, so now is a good time to add bugs in the tracker.
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erinjo eschnou erinjorichey.com is static with timeline code using ThinkUp info, erinjorichey.com/thumos is Kirby CMS, erinjorichey.com/push and erinjorichey.com/pull are Storytlr, flatfrogblog.com is WP and I'm debating some updates to it
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eschnou barnabywalters, nice meeting you as well, I find the luthier/web mix awesome :-)
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barnabywalters eschnou: :) It always surprises me how many thought patterns are transferrable between the two disciplines!
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erinjo eschnou I would love if the post to Twitter worked. That's my biggest request. I know the authentication has probably changed since it was originally done, I just never had the time to poke around and see if I could update it
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eschnou erinjo, post to twitter is fixed
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eschnou all fixes are on the dev branch, I'll repackage a stable release in the coming days
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erinjo eschnou Awesome. If I have time this weekend I want to spend some time with my installs, maybe making updates
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eschnou now also have PuSH with Atom feeds and activity streams
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barnabywalters pokes around in the Develop branch
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eschnou and wrapping up work on an api so I can post directly to storytlr from other clients
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erinjo eschnou Cool. I'll take a look at it
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barnabywalters erinjo: wow, I never realised just how many different pieces of software your websites used!
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erinjo eschnou That would be great. I have trouble myself using it as my intended push/Twitter replacement because I send so much from mobile
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erinjo barnabywalters Yeah, it's a bit of a mess actually. There are also more… I was deleting some of the more broken bits last night
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eschnou erinjo, that's also why I like to mix POSSE and PESOS (using indieweb terminoligies :-) Sometimes you just want to use a cool client (instagram...) but still like to syndicate back on your site.
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erinjo eschnou Yeah. My terminology is PuPuPu :-)
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eschnou hehe
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barnabywalters I have quite a few different things on my server, but the only public ones are my software and OpenPhoto. The rest is personal stuff like CalDAV/CardDAV
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barnabywalters erinjo: Hah, PuPuPu needs a wiki page!
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erinjo barnabywalters Yes! I think some Finnish people on Twitter were kind enough to suggest a bunny rabbit as a mascot also
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barnabywalters so PuPuPu means something in finnish?! I love it when stuff like that happens
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erinjo barnabywalters How have you been liking OpenPhoto? I have one of the hosted accounts that I've haven't done much with because I couldn't get the self-hosted one going, but I've been meaning to go back to it
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barnabywalters I like openphoto, mainly because of the mobile app and the API
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barnabywalters the default theme is not very nice, but it’s a solid, actively developed piece of software
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barnabywalters meaning I can focus on developing more connectedness with other sites instead of making boilerplate apps and photo content types myself :)
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erinjo barnabywalters https://twitter.com/erinjo/status/215901685678227456
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@erinjo @jjmajava @t Ah ha! A mascot!
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barnabywalters oh that’s awesome :D
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barnabywalters starts PuPuPu wiki page
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erinjo lol
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barnabywalters erinjo, do you have a link to your original pupupu tweet/post? where you first publicaly announced it?
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erinjo barnabywalters OwnCloud and OpenPhoto are on my to-do list, just a bit further down right now
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erinjo https://twitter.com/erinjo/status/215898567045414912
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@erinjo @t I'm going to call mine PuPuPu: Push and Pull Publishing. Then whenever I want to tweet, I can say, "It's PuPu time!"
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barnabywalters brilliant
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eschnou And now I can rebrand Storytlr as a PuPuPu platform :-)
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waterpigs.co.uk created /PuPuPu (+656) "Created, added links to tweets" (view diff)
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erinjo eschnou Excellent! :-D
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barnabywalters eschnou: feel free to add it to the list of implementations, and http://indiewebcamp.com/projects
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barnabywalters oops, hadn’t realised it was already on projects!
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eschnou :-) I've added a week ago, in the experimental
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barnabywalters wow there’s a lot of stuff on there. I haven’t added much of my stuff :/
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barnabywalters eschnou: I see you mention using salmon in storytlr. Is this something you’ve started experimenting with yet?
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eschnou barnabywalters, not within Storytlr yet, but I did a full salmon implementation in my node-ostatus project a while back.
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eschnou https://github.com/eschnou/node-ostatus
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eschnou barnabywalters, and salmon interoperability is a real pain, so that's why I'm relunctant to spend to much time on this in storytlr.
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barnabywalters oh cool, node-ostatus looks impressive! I tried to start using it in my software a while ago and found the same thing — salmon (and by extension webfinger) is a bloody nightmare
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barnabywalters our current efforts to get inter-site commenting/etc. going are using Pingback and webmention (a pure-HTTP version of pingback authored by sandeepshetty)
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erinjo Hmm, I might have to add some platforms to the projects page...
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eschnou barnabywalters, yup, crypto interop is always tough, you need to get some many little details right... I even experienced doign salmon in bash :-)
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eschnou https://github.com/eschnou/salmon-bash
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barnabywalters eschnou: wow, you’re hardcore :D
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eschnou is it webmention.org ? I never came accross that one, will definitively have a look !
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eschnou barnabywalters, you are in UK right ?
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barnabywalters eschnou: that’s the one. It’s essentially pingback but without the XMLRPC crap
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barnabywalters yep, I am
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eschnou any plan to visit Belgium and attend FOSDEM ? (fosdem.org)
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eschnou ping me if around !
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barnabywalters not as yet, but I’ll be sure to ping you if I’m ever headed that way
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barnabywalters wow fosdem looks great
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eschnou we'll most likely do some informal #fsw meetup, evan from status.net will be there and a few others
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eschnou yes, fosdem is an awesome event
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eschnou and it's free
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barnabywalters looks up flight prices
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eschnou I even know people flying from Portland, OR just for fosdem ! insane :-)
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barnabywalters wow!
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barnabywalters my schedule at the mo is dominated by urgent gurdy making, but as it’s only two days, I may be able to go
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erinjo eschnou Who's heading over from Portland?
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eschnou erinjo, part of the &yet team. You know them ?
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erinjo eschnou Hmm, I don't think so. I'll have to look
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eschnou andyet.com, really nice team, they are doing a lot of stuff with XMPP and the winter XMPP summit is always next to fosdem. The summer one is around OSCON.
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erinjo eschnou Oh cool
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eschnou erinjo, your instagram in storytlr, is it just rss or something else ? any plugins or other code changes worth sharing ?
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erinjo eschnou I believe it's an rss I grabbed from something like web.stagram.com. No special code or plugins yet. I tried to go through my list of most used services and grab rss where ever possible
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erinjo eschnou I noticed yesterday that one of my feeds is generating a lot of 404s, so I'll have to look into that more this weekend
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eschnou let me know if you upgrade/merge the latest code and run into issues. and make sure to make a backup before you try, this hasn't been tested much yet :-)
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barnabywalters eschnou: does storytlr have an automated test suite?
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tantek whoa - party in #indiewebcamp
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tantek scrolls up
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barnabywalters evening tantek
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eschnou barnabywalters, *blush* nope... it was back in the days... you know... 5 years ago.. when I started this.. I was young :-)
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eschnou hi tantek !
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barnabywalters eschnou: hey, no problem :) I only learnt automated tests *existed* last year
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tantek welcome eschnou!
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eschnou tantek, I finally joined #indiewebcamp following your latest post on the #fsw mailing list :-)
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tantek eschnou great! glad to hear it.
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tantek hopefully you can make it to Indiewebcamp.com/2013 or indiewebcamp.com/2013/uk
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erinjo eschnou I'll probably play around with a fresh install before trying to merge anything. I tend to mess with parent themes instead of child themes and do things that break when i upgrade
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eschnou tantek, as I mentionned, I would like to make storytlr a good #indieweb citizen, so feel free to shout if you think I'm missing things
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tantek.com created /2013/uk (+21) "r" (view diff)
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tantek (ahem)
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eschnou I would love to join in Portland, but it's a looong way, will try the remote participation.
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eschnou UK is definitively feasible and already slotted in my agenda, will depends on my workload at that time.
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tommorris is thinking that something like a PlanetIndieWeb might be useful.
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tommorris Basically a Planet install for indiewebsters
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barnabywalters tommorris: Planet referring to the OSM Planet, or something else?
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tommorris barnabywalters: Planet is a blog aggregator thing.
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barnabywalters ah, found it
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tommorris http://en.planet.wikimedia.org/
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tommorris for instance
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aaronpk oh, interesting
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tantek eschnou, sign up for 2013 UK! http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK/Guest_List#RSVP
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erinjo tommorris PlanetIndieWeb - I just pictured Atlas shouldering the world
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tantek here's another such "planet" http://planet.mozilla.org/
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aaronpk I could run that on the indiewebcamp.com domain
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tantek woot!
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Loqi yay!
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tantek planet.indiewebcamp.com
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tommorris it'd be nice if we could get Planet set up in such a way that it points to a domain rather than requiring explicit signup
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tommorris so it'd do feed discovery and so on.
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aaronpk discovery of what?
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tommorris so, the Planet Wikimedia one, you have to notify the maintainers of your RSS feeds and stuff
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aaronpk ah yea, that's how i've seen it done
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tantek tommorris - you mean it's not just a list on a wiki page?
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tantek :p
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aaronpk tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 7 karma
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aaronpk that could be arranged
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tantek "notify" "maintainers" - how quaint
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tommorris tantek: there's a reason for it that I won't discuss in a publicly logged channel.
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tommorris also, IWC UK 2012 was something I included in my 2012 year-in-review post. http://tommorris.org/posts/8022 ;-)
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aaronpk also has indieweb.me, could launch it at planet.indieweb.me
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tantek.com created /discover (+23) "r" (view diff)
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eschnou thank you all for the great discussion, I'll try to join more often, cheers
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tantek.com created /planet (+613) "stub" (view diff)
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tommorris Cripes, Twitter still aren't letting me download my old tweets yet.
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tommorris also http://searchengineland.com/library-of-congress-struggling-to-make-searchable-twitter-archive-144327
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tantek aaronpk - what do you think, easy enough to watch http://indiewebcamp.com/planet#Planet_Sites for changes, do discovery on the URLs in that list and have the Planet aggregator update automatically?
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tommorris if only someone had worked out some way of solving this problem by, say, publishing things on the web and then having a search engine for things.
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barnabywalters tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 3 karma
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tommorris I'm not sure if on the Planet whether we want all the posts or just ones that are tagged with indieweb/indiewebcamp
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aaronpk tantek: I think that's reasonable.
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tommorris there's been drama in the past in various communities about people posting personal stuff on the planet.
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tantek tommorris - I think "redesign" is an understatement. more like rebuilt
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tantek (re your post)
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tommorris tantek: heh. I was writing it late.
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aaronpk tommorris: I was wondering about that, we could ask for links to a tag/category feed instead?
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tantek plus, you just came out as an atheist last year? wow, I'm surprised, thought you'd done so earlier. ;)
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tommorris heh.
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tantek notes there are openly gay US politicians, but no openly atheist politicians. ;)
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tommorris so, potential dramas: Planet Mozilla had an issue when Gerv had one of his anti-gay-marriage rants syndicated out, and one of the Linux distro Planets had a guy who posted some "upskirt" photos.
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tommorris tantek: I believe there is now one.
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tantek oh I remember that (the Gerv post)
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tantek tommorris - in the US or UK? none in the US that I know of.
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tantek tommorris - let's try it with just all posts for now, and we can add filters/categories if necessary
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tommorris tantek: there was some rumour that Kyrsten Sinema (D-AZ) is an atheist.
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tommorris she's ex-Mormon and "non-religious" but I think she steers away from the A-word.
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barnabywalters tommorris tantek: we can always provide filtered feed URIs, e.g. http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes?tagged=indieweb
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tantek barnabywalters - exactly - or even self-provided
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tantek that is, if you only want *some* of your posts aggregated, you can put that URL in the list instead of your home page
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aaronpk I was thinking about just providing a URL to a custom "indieweb" feed, filtering is not done on the planet side
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tommorris yup, I have a Wikimedia-related feed for stuff going into Planet Wikimedia
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tantek aaronpk - I agree, but leave that up to the individual to do so
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aaronpk yea
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tommorris (which I haven't yet updated since the move away from Tumblr to Ferocity)
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tantek tommorris - let's burn the drama bridges when we get to them.
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tantek e.g. on Planet Mozilla I was specifically asked for a) a feed of *only* my *blog* posts (not "notes"), and b) *all* of my blog posts, not just tech related.
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tommorris I was thinking about it as a potential way to encourage people. You know about cults and lovebombing? "Hey, build your own site, and you get this new feed of awesome people to hang out with."
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tantek heh
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barnabywalters lovebombing? I am learning lots of new words this evening
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aaronpk that's actually an interesting point, should we recommend (not require) articles and not notes?
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tommorris Dunno. Part of it is to try and encourage people to post their notes and Twitter-style back-and-forth on their own site
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aaronpk true
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tantek aaronpk - yeah, from the Planet Mozilla experience, I think we should (articles only not notes)
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tantek though I'd be ok experimenting with all posts first
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tantek we can always prune it back later
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tantek or as with by topic, let's let individuals choose for themselves
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tommorris Ah, an old post just reminded me of the thing we're trying to liberate: online phatic communication.
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tantek realizes he needs a filtered page of just blog posts
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barnabywalters as the distinction between a note and an article is quite a personal thing anyway, I’d start off by leaving it up to the author
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erinjo I agree that a feed of filtered posts or self-selected posts is better for Planet
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barnabywalters not that it’s something which would be easy to enforce
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tommorris barnabywalters: there's an easy solution. if a feed gets too "chatty", aaronpk shouts at the person and demands a filtered feed. ;-)
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barnabywalters tommorris: or just removes it from the wiki!
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tantek let's try self-regulation until it breaks
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tantek barnabywalters - biggest distinction between article/note is the presence/absence of a post name/title.
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barnabywalters tantek: indeed, but apart from that, in terms of length, whether or not it’s a reply, whether or not it’s time context sensitive, it varies hugely
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tommorris for me, it's "could I plausibly have written this on an iPad?" if yes, it's a note. if not, it's an article.
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tantek whether you give something a name might be personal, but whether it *has* a name, and thus making it an "article" is fairly well agreed upon
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aaronpk lol, we should collect these on a wiki page
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tantek haven't really seen articles as "replies" in the Twitter @-reply sense
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aaronpk but i have seen articles which are replies
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tantek I've seen "response" articles, but typically those articles stand on their own as well
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tantek unlike @-replies
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barnabywalters tantek: what aaronpk said
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aaronpk tantek: that's true, they usually can stand alone
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tantek that's a big difference
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aaronpk whereas text replies are usually irrelevant out of context
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tantek whereas @-replies assuming contextual threading
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tantek for comprehension
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tantek s/assuming/assume
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tantek barnabywatlers I don't think "time context sensitive" matters for a planet aggregation. all posts have published dates. that's good enough.
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barnabywalters hm, new article coming on: "What makes this article an article?"
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tantek barnabywalters - i'd suggest researching the activitystreams mailing list
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tantek you'll see this has been discussed to death
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tantek article vs. note etc.
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aaronpk literally
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tantek i.e. do your homework first on this one ;)
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aaronpk it has been discussed so much that it has in fact died
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tantek now the real hard one is "note" vs. "status"
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tantek ;)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: and was some useful conclusion reached?
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aaronpk i don't remember
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barnabywalters tantek: sheesh, don’t even start ;) I think that was one of the first indieweb-related articles I ever wrote
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barnabywalters http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/statuses-updates-notes-mess/
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barnabywalters (note that a lot of my opinions have since changed without me updating that article yet)
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tommorris.org created /Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction (+746) "let's give this a go." (view diff)
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tantek whoa check out that hover styling of <del> and text-overflow!
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tommorris ask and ye shall receieve.
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barnabywalters tantek: you mean it’s working? I thought I broke it a while ago
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barnabywalters tries on FF
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tommorris ooh, might steal the <ins> style.
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barnabywalters tommorris: http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/creative-css3/
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tantek yeah, that's pretty slick barnabywalters
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barnabywalters I am doing some things with my articles module now to associate each <ins> and <del> with an update # fragment automatically
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tommorris should sneak out from fiddling with the guts of databases and functional programming languages and brush up on front-end stuff.
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tommorris we had a massive debate on wikipedia about diff colours a while back.
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tantek barnabywalters - I think I disagree pretty strongly about your point about "time-independant [sic] meaning"
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tommorris (I know, debates on Wikipedia. Whatever next.)
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tantek you can't tell in advance if anything is going to actually have time-independent meaning
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tantek if it does, you got lucky ;)
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tantek even the intent
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tommorris indeed. stupid things I wrote as a rant privately on Facebook have been elevated to having a permanent public URL because people demanded it.;-)
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tantek only history can provide that perspective. not a-priori authorship typing.
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barnabywalters tantek: is this in the status/note/update article? as I said, it is not in sync with my current opinion
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tantek thus the only useful distinction I've found between article and note is - does it have non-trivial structure and/or is it worth naming? if so, then article, else note
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barnabywalters recently I have started using "am I likely to update this in the future" as a differentiator to, hence the SVG github-esque update histories on the articles page
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barnabywalters but practically speaking, "does it have a title" is the most efficient distinction
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tantek heh. updates. yeah. I think everything is susceptible to being updated.
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tantek barnabywalters - might I suggest using CSS3 Transitions on the show/hide on hover aspect of <del> tags - would make it a smoother interaction
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tantek wonders if it is possible to grow something's linearly from 0 to the auto computed value
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tantek s/linearly/height linearly/
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Loqi tantek meant to say: wonders if it is possible to grow something's height linearly from 0 to the auto computed value
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barnabywalters tantek: IIRC I tried that and it wasn’t possible
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barnabywalters argh, why is there no easy way to debug/modify :hover styles in devtools
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barnabywalters oh, FF provides one
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tommorris well, one of the things that's quite attractive about posting your "tweets" on your own site is that you can edit them afterwards. Twitter not letting you edit statuses is... well, I spoke to one of Twitter's engineers and I understand why they did it for technical reasons and so on, but it's still annoying.
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tommorris if the only way I have to write is a rubbing my fingers against a fiddly flat piece of glass, I'm likely to make mistakes in a way I wouldn't otherwise. And that's kind of a big use case for Twitter.
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barnabywalters tantek: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/CSS/Tutorials/Using_CSS_transitions#Which_CSS_properties_are_animatable.3F says gecko refuses to animate to/from auto, webkit does it badly
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tantek how does webkit do it?
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barnabywalters no idea, at the moment webkit is refusing to even do the rollover which is weird
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tantek tommorris - indeed (about editing (and deletion))
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tantek really needs to buckle down and build his 2+ year ago designed web-posting form UI flow.
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tantek (with undo and stuff)
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tantek !tell eschnou on http://storytlr.org/about.html it links to http://wiki.github.com/storytlr/core/asking-for-help "lively community" which redirects and then 404s.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tommorris whoever said that sarcasm doesn't work online? http://tommorris.org/posts/8027 [re the Twitter/Library of Congress thing]
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tantek tommorris - LOL
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aaronpk wow
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barnabywalters ha ha ha
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barnabywalters tommorris++
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tantek tommorris - sorry to be all serious and stuff, but (from the URL you linked to): "the collection will eventually be made available only within the Library itself so that its archive doesn’t compete with commercial services that offer Twitter archives — that’s part of the agreement with Twitter."
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tommorris tantek: indeed. this is more aimed at Twitter than the LoC.
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tantek or Google for that matter
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tantek nothing stopping them from providing a better site:twitter.com search if they wanted to
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tommorris LoC is working within the constraints set by Twitter. but if they'd just publish on the web like normal people, they could have stuff in archive.org
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tommorris Twitter have opted out of archive.org, interestingly
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tantek so, Twitter publishes on the web, ergo ...
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tantek could be because archive.org won't honor delete messages
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tantek whereas LoC does
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tantek (yes if you delete a tweet it eventually gets deleted in the LoC corpus)
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tantek (their feed of updates includes deletes)
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tommorris Twitter aren't letting you explore the old stuff past 3,200 in the web UI or the API though.
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tommorris which is why the situation seems so absurd to me
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tantek.com edited /Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction (+330) "/* Personal, subjective distinctions */ add some personal opinion irc quotes" (view diff)
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barnabywalters CSS is being a pain so going to bed. goodnight all!
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Loqi gute nacht!
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tantek ok barnabywalters, erinjo, tommorris, add yourselves: http://indiewebcamp.com/planet#Planet_Sites
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tantek and of course aaronpk and anyone else here who wishes to be planetized ;)
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tommorris.org edited /planet (+24) "/* Planet Sites */ +me" (view diff)
erinjo joined the channel
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aaronparecki.com edited /planet (+27) "/* Planet Sites */ +me" (view diff)