#indiewebcamp 2013-01-13

2013-01-13 UTC
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@bendechrai Yes! Added to todo list! /cc @priva_si #privacy #ownyourdata RT @_philbrown: You should share that as a Vagrant box https://twitter.com/bendechrai/status/289299043014828032
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@BarnabyWalters Registered http://taprootproject.com for #indieweb reasons. My publishing software is being released soon! /cc… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/810/
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tommorris hmm, no barnaby.
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tommorris I just looked at the HTML5 spec and saw that ins lets you have datetime as an attribute.
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tommorris <ins datetime="2013-01-13T18:41:00Z">And another thing...</ins>
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tantek indeed - that's been there since HTML4
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tantek in HTML5 - you can specify just the date if you wish (omit a superfluous / artificially precise time). you're welcome. ;)
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tantek similarly with <del>
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tommorris tantek: thinking that I might make it a post-processing step. when I save, it checks for new <ins> elements, adds datetime attribute
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tantek tommorris - that's pretty cool - semi-auto markup
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tommorris tantek: it's one of the many reasons I was very angry about the complexity of HTML, and the need for a simpler way to parse it and manipulate it (simpler that is than "launch a Gecko/WebKit instance")
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tommorris because once you have got the ability to programatically modify HTML, it actually becomes possible to usefully process it and build non-hacky stuff around it
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tommorris but I feel I may perhaps at this point be preaching to the cardinal.
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tantek :)
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tantek so this is why I decided to stick to XML-valid HTML5.
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tantek tons more tools, libraries, objects/classes you can use to process it
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tantek until libhtml5 gets ported everywhere
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tantek (it's the conclusion of this post: http://tantek.com/2010/302/b1/xhtml-dead-long-live-xml-valid-html5 )
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tantek in fact, using programmatically modifiable HTML was the essence of my second indieweb post made with Falcon: http://tantek.com/2010/002/t1/html-model
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tantek and see: http://tantek.com/2010/006/t1/php-domdocument-cassis
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tantek I basically live-posted as I figured out how I wanted to and built Falcon piece by piece.
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tommorris I switched my RDFa prefixes over from xmlns: attributes to the new prefix attribute t'other day. With that, <article> tags, microformats2 and a <nav> element, I feel like I'm living in a weird future codesigned by you, TimBL and Hixie.
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tantek Heh. Hopefully a simpler more reliable future.
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tantek BTW - not sure how the reaction has been in the UK, but over here we're all pretty upset about the whole @aaronsw thing. Saw you posted a report.
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tommorris yeah, #swig, the semweb channel is mourning.
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tommorris I wrote the Wikinews article - seemed fitting as I'd written the previous one about him being arrested over the JSTOR thing
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tantek there's a lot of anger over here
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tantek we've lost another open web visionary and creator
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tantek anyway - I'm going to go get a bite to eat. just wanted to say hi about the whole aaronsw thing.
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tommorris tantek: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20010801-f2f/Aaron-with-Ted-Doug.jpg
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danbri tantek, yeah a lot of us pretty shocked...
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danbri i guess in the uk few of us saw the older Aaron on a regular basis
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danbri so the aaron in that photo is the one i remember
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danbri and it's hard to square that with what just happened
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danbri "a policy of draconian error-handling is a policy of failure" +1
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tommorris crikey, my browser was working before I decided to open the WHATWG version of the HTML5 spec
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tantek great photo.
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tantek Aaron was very influential. His insistence pushed me to blog one of my post popular posts: http://tantek.com/log/2007/02.html#d19t1813 - later referenced by Ev about Twitter in his Web 2.0 interview: http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2007/10/17/web-20-summit-twitters-evan-williams/
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tommorris tantek: on hypothesis 2, I'd say it's confirmed by the use of Mosh <http://mosh.mit.edu/>. It makes SSH more responsive when connecting over mobile, and thus actually makes it a lot less painful and easier to use.
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tommorris a nerdy example, perhaps
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@aral Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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@captcodemonkey RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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@GeorgeReese +1 -&gt
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Loqi RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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@ondragebauer RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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@trodrigues RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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@dadogdamastar RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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@dshaw RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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@antonwhalley RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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@ephanypdx RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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@BarnabyWalters Finally added cross-cutting caching injection to #taproot! Performance should significantly improve now #indieweb (http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/812/)
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barnabywalters Wow, aral gets retweeted a lot!
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tommorris is tempted to ask aral whether he's posted that tweet on aralbalkan.com. ;-)
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tommorris hey barnabywalters
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barnabywalters evening tommorris
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barnabywalters well, he has a "notes" section, though his notes are my essays!
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tommorris heh
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barnabywalters not that I’m as good a writer, or ever do long-form stuff
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tommorris so, today, I've just learned that the ins element has a datetime attribute
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@_romac RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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barnabywalters tommorris: let me guess: you’re going to make your app automatically fill it out? ;)
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tommorris yup.
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barnabywalters awesome stuff!
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tommorris and del too, probably
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barnabywalters been on my "to develop" list for a while, as well as auto-filling @cite
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barnabywalters (I think it’s cite, anyway)
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tommorris yeah, there's a cite attribute on both
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barnabywalters with a URI like http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/lutherie/#update-2013-01-11T17:25:31+00:00
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tommorris at that point, you get into version control, which I haven't yet implemented, but might
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@wesleyhales RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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barnabywalters well, I’m experimenting with pushing ins and del as far as they’ll go and see where they start to break down
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barnabywalters I saw your posts about aaronsw. Over the past two days I’ve gone from having almost no idea who he was to being the most sad and angry I’ve been about anything for a long time.
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tommorris #swig, the Semantic Web channel, has been discussing nothing but aaron. He was an early RDFer.
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barnabywalters I liked timbl’s email about it. short and effective.
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tommorris http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2013/01/13/aaron-swartz.html was one of my favourite pieces
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barnabywalters agreed
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@JeremiahLee RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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barnabywalters tommorris: as a WP admin, do you think evanpro’s suggestion of putting a link to suicide hotlines on it’s WP page will come to fruition?
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@gkc RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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@royclarkson exactly. “@aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb”
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tommorris barnabywalters: nope, won't go anywhere.
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tommorris It should, but it won't.
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tommorris we've proposed things like that in the past, especially for medical articles
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tommorris (the number of people who self-diagnose all sorts of things from Wikipedia is ridiculous.)
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barnabywalters what reasons are given to oppose them? to country/charity specific?
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tommorris but we have a strong policy of no disclaimers
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tommorris well, there's a bit of a slippery slope argument too
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barnabywalters and linking to help services could be interpreted as giving advice?
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tommorris there's a definitional argument: it's outside of the remit of an encyclopedia
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tommorris and there's a consequential argument: if we start doing it for, say, suicide, where do we stop?
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tommorris I have no desire to spend the next few years explaining to homophobes that we can't have "pray away the gay" helplines listed at the bottom of articles on sexuality
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barnabywalters ah, I see :/
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tommorris there are things we can do: I'm thinking of suggesting that 'New Admin School' should have a section advising admins on how to deal with emergency and crisis situations
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tommorris we've had people come on to Wikipedia IRC channels claiming they are suicidal, self-harming or with mental illnesses that need help
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barnabywalters so WP admins need to have basic therapy training?
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tommorris well, we sort of have some guidelines in place for that: generally, if it's on-wiki, we forward details to emergency@wikimedia.org
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tommorris we rev-del (revision delete) bullying, attempts to out people's IRL identities and so on
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barnabywalters but who is the person on the receiving end of those emails?
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tommorris a team of people at the foundation, who have direct database access
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tommorris so, if someone is suicidal, we can send stuff to there, they have people who can do IP lookups and so on and if appropriate contact police or emergecny services
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barnabywalters that must be quite a job. I never knew WP acted as an… international proxy to emergency services
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barnabywalters huh. that’s amazing.
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tommorris well, I'm not sure who is on it exactly, but I expect it's probably Community Department people and legal counsel
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tommorris I've only ever had to contact it once, which was some idiot who made a bomb threat against the Wikimedia Foundation
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@markrglover RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
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tommorris And I knew it was 99.999% likely to be utter bullshit, but I forwarded it on anyway just in case
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barnabywalters I also had no idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Suicide_response existed
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tommorris breathes a sigh of relief that it is indefinitely full-protected.
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tommorris also, the amount of bureaucracy hidden away in Wikipedia astounds even me sometimes. And I say that as someone who was recently asked if he'd like to run for election for the position of 'bureaucrat'.
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barnabywalters heh
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barnabywalters getting late. goodnight all
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Loqi gute nacht!