#indiewebcamp 2013-05-30

2013-05-30 UTC
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@sandeepshetty @shawndrape the #indieweb (statistical) mode will be small no. of followers. Poll will work just fine.
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tantek the path sandeepshetty is taking is fine. minimal implementation based on polling, then he can assess later whether he needs/wants PuSH or not
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tantek whether any one of us agrees or not, doesn't matter, it's part of the strength of the indieweb, each implementer decides for themselves what approach to prioritize
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tantek in contrast to monocultures
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tantek ok so for comics posts
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tantek I'm thinking they resemble articles since they typically have a name
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tantek at least XKCD style
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tantek and I'm thinking of putting the whole thing in an <object>
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tantek and having the fallback heading etc. in the <object>
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tantek so it'll be a special kind of article - we'll see how much I have to change my CSS to make this work
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tantek but I'm reusing the "a" shortcode for it
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tantek er, I mean "b". ahem.
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bret not to bag on facebook more but... screw it lets: https://medium.com/a-programmers-tale/f7b8c66109ea
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bret although, going through the comments makes me frown. Lots of "twitter is still good, lets fail to realize the bigger issue here"
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bret as if twitter is going to a) ever going to have as big of an impact as FB, and b) not be susceptible to all of the same problems
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pdurbin twitter used to be great. facebook never was
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bret facebook used to be okay when it was highschool and college
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bret seemingly
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pdurbin I was out of college already when facebook was just college
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bret in retrospect, given what it turned into though, i see that this was a drastic illusion and mistake us kids made in promoting it
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bret :/
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bret oh well oops
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@matro http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture
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tantek well one distinction I've found between a comic and an article is that I don't want to display an explicit <h1> heading before a comic - since the comic has the heading built into the image
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tantek so I'm going to use h-as-article h-as-comic
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cweiske what about a hidden topic?
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cweiske because the image is not easily machine-readable
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tantek cweiske - hence I'm using <object> for the image with text fallback inside
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cweiske ah
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tantek but in this case I may be able to simply query the entry-title node to see if it has an entry-content ancestor
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tantek and if so - to not duplicate it in its own h1 outside the entry-content
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tantek e.g. in a stream context
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@xtof_fr @anthere y'a @thierrymarianne qui est rentré dans ta carto http://christopheducamp.com
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@xtof_fr Inspiration /by @anthere - stratégie #indieweb
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tantek my first comic post:
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tantek http://tantek.com/2013/149/b1/bayesian
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tantek with full fallback text markup also
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tantek which apparently gets used by some aggregators - such as Planet Mozilla!
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tantek http://planet.mozilla.org/
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cweiske i think mozilla doesn't like images in objects
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tantek cweiske - planet?
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tantek works fine in Firefox
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cweiske on planet I see the text only
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cweiske not the image
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cweiske as on your page
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tantek right, that was my point
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cweiske so why does planet not show the image?
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cweiske ah
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cweiske your feed does not have the image
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cweiske why do you have a planet namespace in your feed?
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cweiske what is it good for?
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tantek no my feed does have the image
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tantek view source on it
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cweiske ah. wrong feed :/
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cweiske right
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tantek looks like planet indiscriminately strips objects - which is too bad
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tantek it should at least allow the usual multimedia set - images, video, audio
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tantek.com edited /posts (+13) "tommorris is publishing checkins on his own site. plus, comics!" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /comics (+2112) "stub comics with a real world example - let's see where this goes" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /comic (+20) "r" (view diff)
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tantek and there you have it
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eschnou !tell aaronpk Got an idea, in the case of barnaby replying to my comment, since my comment is already linking to yours (in-reply-to), I could just 'ping' the master post again, and up to you to reload it and scan its comments.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek new inspired post type: http://indiewebcamp.com/comics
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tantek eschnou - perhaps add that to: http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-notifications
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eschnou tantek, you have a bright future in doing xkcd comics :-)
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tantek eschnou - you're too kind
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tantek it helps to have a source of inspiration
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tantek (btw - that's my first attempt at hand drawing a comic in XKCD style - so don't judge too harshly ;) )
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tantek (and I don't really consider myself a "drawing" person though I want to be)
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tantek (still I thought it was decent - with a bit of practice I might even avoid erasures - had a few this time)
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eschnou tantek, well, as in all xkcd, I don't think the drawing part matters much, the underlying references are the interestingbit
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tantek eschnou - there's something very emotionally endearing about the simplicity and subtlety of the XKCD characters and how they're drawn
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tantek I tried to incorporate that
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eschnou tantek, true
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tantek I'm just going to number them according to ISO Ordinal date
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eschnou tantek, on the wiki, how do I add my 'signature' to a comment I make? Manually?
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eschnou tantek, ok, found the button :-)
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tantek eschnou - ~~~ for just username linked, and ~~~~ for dated signature upon save
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eschnou tantek, in pingback/webmention, have we already described an 'update' flow ? E.g. I would re-ping someone when the content of a reply has been changed?
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eschnou.com edited /comment-notifications (+311) "/* Option 2. Webmention */" (view diff)
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tantek eschnou - not as far as I know
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tantek hmm - it appears my object code is broken in Safari desktop but works on mobile?
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tantek interesting, Safari desktop doesn't like <object type="image/jpg"> but is ok with <object type="image/jpeg">
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tantek ok fixed
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tantek good morning barnaby
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barnabywalters morning tantek
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barnabywalters was looking at yesterdays logs over breakfast — lots of interesting stuff in there
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barnabywalters and came up with some further ideas about HTML-enabled PuSH alternative — non-feed use cases
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barnabywalters such as updated contact info/XFN data
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tantek yes! real-time hCard updates!
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barnabywalters PuSH is overcomplicated AND limited only to chronological feed updates
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barnabywalters I suspect there is a fairly simple solution which can be used for any content
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barnabywalters essentially:
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barnabywalters subscriber: Tell me when this URL is updated
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barnabywalters and the hub is there to provide async and load relief for the publisher
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barnabywalters flow for the publisher has to stay as simple as it is currently
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cweiske barnabywalters, you can have a push feed for a single file only
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cweiske and thus notify about file updates
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barnabywalters cweiske: interesting, never saw that documented — link?
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cweiske that's intrinsic to atom
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cweiske just update the updated field
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cweiske just one entry in the feed
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barnabywalters that forces me to frame non-feed content as a feed
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cweiske you don't need to include the content in the feed
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cweiske you can use the feed just as update notification medium
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cweiske just as pingback notifies about referencing
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barnabywalters so what I’m describing is possible right now — great
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barnabywalters all the other problems still remain :)
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barnabywalters duplication
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barnabywalters DRY-violation
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barnabywalters complexity for subscribers
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tantek barnabywalters - what happens if the given URL is just HTML instead of Atom? Why does that break?
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tantek we need to get Brett Slatkin here - he was at IndieWebCamp 2012
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tantek in other news...
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barnabywalters I’ve actually never tried it — partly because PuSH is so difficult to test
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+614) "Simple comics support added, because, well, I had a comic to post. So implemented it." (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - I'm convinced a comic strip post is similar to but different in important ways from each of: article, note, photo
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tantek see: http://indiewebcamp.com/comics
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cweiske barnabywalters, http://p.cweiske.de/44 is a minimal atom feed for update notifications
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cweiske you'd just update the <updated> tag when it changes
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cweiske and notify the push subscribers/hubs
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barnabywalters cweiske: is this something you’re actively publishing? the link in the XML is broken
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cweiske no
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cweiske it's an example I just made for you
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barnabywalters cool, thanks
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barnabywalters my beef with this approach is that the last-updated semantic can be embedded into *any* content delivered over HTTP via the Last-modified header
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barnabywalters so it’s great to see an example of how this could be implemented with current tech
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cweiske barnabywalters, the hub can of course just do a HEAD request
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cweiske to see the last-modified date
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barnabywalters tantek RE the comic type: fascintating
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cweiske that's possible right now
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barnabywalters cweiske: so, is it possible right now to do this with PuSH *without* the content duplication, then?
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tantek barnabywalters - we should be able to extend PuSH to handle HTML quite easily
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cweiske barnabywalters, no, that's different from push
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cweiske which relies on atom
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cweiske that'd be a totally simple hub:
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tantek all we have spec is the discovery of rel=hub directly from the HTML
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cweiske subscribe to the hub via "PUT /subscribe" and data of URL and return callback url
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barnabywalters my thoughts on implementing this: a PuSH implementation which doesn’t care about the body content, only HTTP headers
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cweiske unsubscribe with DELETE
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cweiske and the hub calls the callback url when something changes
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barnabywalters cweiske: sounds great, we’ve got enough here to start documenting it on the wiki
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cweiske now how to notify the hub? the hub could poll via HEAD requests
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barnabywalters cweiske: I’m comfortable with the current PuSH publisher flow
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cweiske or get notified with a HTTP POST
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barnabywalters of active publisher POSTs and periodic hub polling to cover any they miss
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barnabywalters this would cover the comment feed notification use case
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barnabywalters because it moves the parsing smarts to the subscriber
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barnabywalters ideally the hub shouldn’t parse anything apart from HTTP headers
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barnabywalters good wiki page title for this?
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barnabywalters pubsub
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barnabywalters push-notifications
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cweiske it should be as cool and unpronouncable as Pubsubhubhub
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barnabywalters lol :)
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@lentremetteur RT @xtof_fr: Inspiration /by @anthere - stratégie #indieweb
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cweiske SimPubsubhubhub
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barnabywalters not interested in naming right now, just topic name for brainstorming
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barnabywalters push-notifications implies UI elements too much so I’ll go pubsub for the moment
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tommorris ooh, I spotted @anthere above. ;)
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tommorris she's an awesome french wikipedian.
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barnabywalters morning tommorris
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tommorris hey barnabywalters
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tommorris I have detected a new way to look into the madness of the world: Google Analytics Organic Search Traffic page
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tantek good morning tommorris
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tommorris hey tantek
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tantek pardon my heternormative comic post
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tommorris oh no, that's fine. ;)
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tantek FWIW - I do think I've found a new post type - at least as far as the presentation I want is concerned
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tantek barnabywalters - consider documenting your pubsubhubbub brainstorms in a section by that name on the page: http://indiewebcamp.com/PubSubHubbub
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barnabywalters tantek: currently half way through writing /pubsub
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tantek :)
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tommorris webhooks always seemed to be the sanest, simplest way of building pubsub
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tantek agreed
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barnabywalters one pattern I am seeing emerge from webmention and now this is: people on the web disagree about everything apart from HTTP. Use it.
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tommorris barnabywalters: no, no, people disagree about HTTP too - see SPDY
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barnabywalters tommorris: well yes, but not nearly as much ;)
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barnabywalters e.g. ATOM vs HTML vs JSON vs HYPER-MAGIC-FORMAT-X
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barnabywalters all served via HTTP
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barnabywalters unless you’re a SPDY nut
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barnabywalters (not that that’s a bad thing)
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barnabywalters s/nut/enthusiast
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tommorris this is why I think of myself as a pragmatic RDF enthusiast. I'll go with what works even if I have SemWebbish preferences. ;)
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tantek barnabywalters - the HTML vs everything else is just shortsighted lazy programmers tunnelvision optimizing the wrong problems.
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tantek exception: when you're optimizing for user-input of textish info, markdown appears to provide some good tradeoffs for some folks.
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tantek but yeah, optimizing for parsers, or making up your own tags - makes no sense
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waterpigs.co.uk created /pubsub (+2729) "Created with dump of brainstorming from IRC" (view diff)
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barnabywalters ^ created, please read and comment
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cweiske two people came from webmention.org to my trackback archive page
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barnabywalters I actually can’t believe that apart from PuSH there’s no accepted way to monitor changes to a webpage other than polling
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barnabywalters s/webpage/url
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: I actually can’t believe that apart from PuSH there’s no accepted way to monitor changes to a url other than polling
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tantek barnabywalters - will do - will review when I've gotten some sleep
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tantek in the meantime would appreciate your and tommorris's evaluation/opinions on the comics post type - am I nuts or does this make some sense? http://indiewebcamp.com/comics
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barnabywalters tantek: it’s three in the morning in SF now, huh? no problem :)
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tommorris seems reasonable enough, although I'd suggest seeing if any webcomic publishers are doing anything that could be nicked.
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tommorris wields the Microformats Sword of Process. ;)
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barnabywalters +1 seems reasonable
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barnabywalters there are some interesting webcomic publishing practises out there
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barnabywalters such as crowdsourcing transcriptions
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@xtof_fr @Fitbit_FR pas de quoi ;)
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tantek tommorris - I looked - existing webcomic markup is somewhere between crap and sloppy.
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tommorris oh yeah, I had a request to translate one of my posts about RDF into Serbian or somethign the other day
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tantek so bad as to not be worth documenting
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tantek real world webcomics that is
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tantek there were a couple of hypotheticals that took similar approaches - but didn't really cover the depth of a real world example
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tantek so that being said
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tantek feel free to tear apart the markup I'm using and make suggestions for improvements
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tantek it was a fairly quick first semantic pass - and I was happy it turned out well when apparently the Planet Mozilla aggregator ditched the object and took the fallback markup alternate
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barnabywalters tantek: reeder did too
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cweiske barnabywalters, how do you want to tell people about the hub?
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cweiske http header?
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barnabywalters cweiske: header/<link> element
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cweiske just like pingback does to announce the PB url
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barnabywalters even better might be a visible <a> element
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barnabywalters and then the hub has some kind of UI
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barnabywalters cweiske: exactly
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barnabywalters that’s worked well enough — element is easy to add, header means less parsing and content-agnosticism for more advanced user
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barnabywalters *users
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@BarnabyWalters Specced out improvements to #pubsubhubbub after use-case-driven discussion in #indiewebcamp: http://t.co/PE3xrXgvkZ… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1474/
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1474/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/pubsub (pingback)
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barnabywalters tantek: safari is a bit weird about that <object> element — no right click or drag
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barnabywalters hover text works though
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barnabywalters tantek: testing reading using voiceover on mac safari results in object title text being read instead of fallback content
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tommorris so we have a new single-sign-on provider: Amazon. http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/29/4375656/amazon-launches-single-sign-on-service-allows-for-easy-in-app
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tommorris snarks about it: http://tommorris.org/posts/8326
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@eschnou @julien51 We need you :-) RT @BarnabyWalters: Specced out improvements to #PuSH after discussion in #indiewebcamp http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1474/
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@unhosted RT @BarnabyWalters: Specced out improvements to #pubsubhubbub after use-case-driven discussion in #indiewebcamp: http://t.co/PE3xrXgvkZ… ht…
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michielbdejong tommorris: that brings up an interesting distinction between federating identity providers and federating sso platforms. because Amazon is much more a payment platform than an identity provider.
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tommorris indeed.
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michielbdejong the relevance being, if facebook, google and amazon were to replace their login+checkout buttons with a federated nascar or whatever
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michielbdejong then i still couldn't indie-participate
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michielbdejong unless i implement a hypothethical Michiel-Checkout service
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michielbdejong so this problem seems to run even deeper than the one openid solved/tried to solve
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michielbdejong eschnou: you have offered storytlr hosting in the past, right? was there a lot of interest?
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eschnou michielbdejong, well, storytlr started a typical web 2.0 'silo', it was closed source, and offered for free on storytlr.com
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eschnou michielbdejong, and yes, we had coverage on all mainstream blogs and +20k users
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michielbdejong ah ok
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michielbdejong i'm installing it now on my own server
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michielbdejong i think i should offer either storytlr or wordpress
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eschnou michielbdejong, cool! ping me if issues!!
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michielbdejong as part of my non-profit hosting provider :)
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michielbdejong will do! :)
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michielbdejong i'm starting a "fake" TLD btw, a bit like www.eu.org, but this one will be *.un.ht
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eschnou nice :-)
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tommorris if the TLD .gay gets approved, I'm registering not.gay and redirecting it to the latest family values crusader who gets caught with a wide stance in an airport lavatory
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michielbdejong :)
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michielbdejong i don't have the money for an icann-approved TLD, but we can just run a registry and a first registrar, conforming to all the best practices, and it will be almost the same.
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michielbdejong only downside is not only the US government, but because of the .ht dependency, also the Haiti government could shut us down whenever they want. and there is no dnssec on .ht, but i don't think anybody needs that in practice.
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michielbdejong and if we run the registry as well as, or better than, existing TLDs, then people will be able to get their own domain name as easily as signing up for facebook (i.e., without having to pay money)
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michielbdejong they would only need to pay if they want their domain name under an icann-approved TLD
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tantek scrolls up
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@michielbdejong Trying out http://storytlr.michielbdejong.com #indieweb
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aaronpk hello scrollback
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Loqi aaronpk: eschnou left you a message 8 hours, 12 minutes ago: Got an idea, in the case of barnaby replying to my comment, since my comment is already linking to yours (in-reply-to), I could just 'ping' the master post again, and up to you to reload it and scan its comments.
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aaronpk oh yea, that might work
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aaronpk that means if barnaby replies to you, he pings you, then you ping me
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aaronpk how far down the chain can that work before it becomes unrealistic to send all the pings?
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aaronpk or does it sufficiently distribute the responsibility of the pings so it's actually better overall?
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storytlr.michielbdejong.com edited /business-models (+936) "/* Other */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:elemental-logo.png]]""
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brennannovak.com edited /monoculture (+1104) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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brennannovak.com edited /monoculture (-19) "/* Communities Design */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Main_Page (+227) "/* Where */ Venue is Elemental Technologies!" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2013 (+45) "add venue" (view diff)
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aaronpk !tell tantek I don't think I have access to update the plancast event, can you add the new venue information? http://plancast.com/p/hhdw
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronparecki.com edited /2013 (+1) "/* IndieWebCamp 2013 */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2013 (+14) "/* to-do */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Main_Page (+72) "/* IndieWebCamp 2013 */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2013/Guest_List (+72) "/* Event */" (view diff)
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 33 minutes ago: I don't think I have access to update the plancast event, can you add the new venue information? http://plancast.com/p/hhdw
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tantek ooh location!
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tantek.com edited /monoculture (+589) "move Communities Design to Monoculture Community as another set of examples, disagree re: project-specific community" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - do you not have the login for the @indiewebcamp twitter?
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tantek because as long as you do - you just have to sign into that, and then sign into plancast using Twitter.
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tantek aaronpk - updated: http://plancast.com/p/hhdw
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tantek.com created /selfdogfooding (+25) "r" (view diff)
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tantek so Brennan Novak recently wrote "Having a vibrant developer / user community is a downright necessity with fledgling open source projects. " and having thought quickly about it - I realized that we're kind of an exception to that here - since we have several projects which DO NOT have their own "vibrant developer / user community"
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tantek am I missing something?
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tantek see: http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture#Monoculture_Community
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tantek posit: having 1+ creator selfdogfooding on an open source project is more important than any/all community around it. what do folks here think? can you think of any exceptions?
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aaronpk I think there's a difference between what brennan is talking about, an open source project, and what we're all building here. very few of our sites are open source projects, although we've made various components of them open source
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aaronpk for the components that are open source, it's important to have a community around them
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benwerd I do think dogfooding is more important, at least in the early stages - many useful open source projects have a relatively small contributing outside community, and so a huge amount of value is drawn from the core developer or team's use of the product. Of course, when a community does arise, they are almost always users (or prospective users), too.
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benwerd (My 2c.)
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sandeep.shetty.in created /push-vs-pull (+1730) "converted my intuition into some concrete points" (view diff)
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sandeep.shetty.in edited /push-vs-pull (+330) (view diff)
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sandeep.shetty.in edited /push-vs-pull (+1550) (view diff)
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: good notes on push vs pull
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aaronpk i also want to point out somehow that pubsub can be done as a service, which is where the business-models pages comes in again
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aaronpk so it can still work with static sites
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sandeepshetty you mean the subscribers site right?
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aaronpk also the publishers
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sandeepshetty yep but I was focusing on the subscriber...
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aaronpk ah
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sandeepshetty with PuSH subscribers can't be static
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sandeepshetty or offline...
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aaronpk yea, those are good points
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sandeep.shetty.in edited /push-vs-pull (+313) (view diff)
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sandeep.shetty.in edited /push-vs-pull (+0) "/* Notes */" (view diff)
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@sandeepshetty Some of my notes on Push vs Pull for #indieweb http://indiewebcamp.com/push-vs-pull #indieweb
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sandeepshetty over and out.
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@sandeepshetty @superfeedr My guess is that following or being followed by thousands will be the exception on the #indieweb
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tantek nicely done sandeepshetty - thanks for putting your notes on the wiki and tweeting out URLs :)
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tantek.com edited /push-vs-pull (+47) "see also" (view diff)
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@sandeepshetty @julien51 I've added some notes here http://indiewebcamp.com/push-vs-pull would love to have a detailed discussion (over email?)
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tantek hah - email? forget it
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tantek @julien51 - if you can get on Twitter, you can get on IRC and discuss much more efficiently there (than on Twitter or Email)
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tommorris just had a fun and interesting debate about indieweb with a guy at gaygeeks.
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aaronpk I don't think he's going to see that
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aaronpk although I could make Loqi tweet out mentions of @usernames from IRC
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tantek aaronpk - I figure he's polling all kinds of feeds ;)
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Loqi who, me?
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aaronpk haha
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tantek oh man that would be awesome
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tantek especially if Loqi had some knowledge of IRC nickname -> Twitter handle
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tommorris I showed off Ferocity on my phone but the guy was unconvinced that we were going to destroy Facebook. I sort of pointed out that our criteria for success isn't "beating" Facebook but building a viable and sustainable alternative to social networking silos that you can come and join if you want to.
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tantek aaronpk - I got it
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aaronpk I could probably come up with a way to get loqi to auth peopel with indieauth
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aaronpk then I can follow a link from their home page to their twitter account
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tantek Loqi could lookup an IRC handle on http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people - look at the link for the user's domain, and then look for a rel-me to twitter.com
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tantek no need to do any authing
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aaronpk hah
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@sandeepshetty @julien51 Actually scratch that. Join us on IRC http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC
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aaronpk only slightly susceptible to attacks
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tommorris with reference to Richard Dawkins' analogy of 'Mount Improbable' - that beating Facebook by building a better but open Facebook (like Diaspora) was like climbing a very steep cliff
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aaronpk sandeepshetty yay!
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tommorris you need to do *some* auth
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Loqi yay!
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tantek yay! sandeepshetty is reading IRC :)
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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barnabywaters Hello, I'm barnaby.
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tommorris Actually, I'm Tom.
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tantek can Loqi see if a user is signed in with nick services?
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jimmywales I'm a whale.
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aaronpk whois tommorris
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tommorris you need to check their hostmask
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aaronpk oops
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tantek aaronpk, you may need to /msg NickServ
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tantek try /msg NickServ help
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aaronpk forgot the "/"
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tommorris so mine is tom@wikimedia/Tom-Morris
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aaronpk hm yes nickserv seems to know about you
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tantek aaronpk - you could do it for only people who have signed in with NickServ
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tommorris and if I'm signed in with that on Freenode, you know you are talking to the real tommorris.
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aaronpk "/msg NickServ INFO tommorris"
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tommorris and it is used for authentication for private channels like #wikipedia-en-admins
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aaronpk although this is not the auth you are looking for
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aaronpk unless we care about who is able to tweet out from Loqi
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tantek might as well just check to see if they are their nickserv identity or not
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tommorris I'd recommend getting a hostmask if you hang about on IRC much or use it for anything importance
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aaronpk but really we're more interested in when tantek says "@tommorris" which twitter username does that correspond to
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tommorris it hides your IP address too.
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aaronpk tommorris: how do you do that?
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tommorris aaronpk: preventing twitter spam is pretty desirable too. ;)
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tantek aaronpk - I think the "@" means it *is* a twitter name
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aaronpk so then we don't need any lookup?
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tantek e.g. I said "aaronpk" above, not "@aaronpk"
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tantek correct
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tommorris aaronpk: different organisations give them out. I got mine through Wikimedia's IRC people - they give 'em out to any reasonably active Wikipedian
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tantek IRC custom is to already use nicknames WITHOUT @
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aaronpk or did you want Loqi to say something like "@sandeepshetty: You are being summonned on IRC by @t"
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tantek so if there IS an @ - assume it's a twitter name
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tantek aaronpk - just use the same syntax as !tell
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tommorris there's a process of getting one that's not affiliated to a project. you get unaffiliated/tantek rather than Wikimedia/Tom-Morris
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aaronpk in which case we need to know tantek's twitter name and know that tantek in IRC actually is tantek
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tantek "not affiliated with a project" - meh - who made "projects" the gatekeepers of identity? what a load of crap.
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tommorris anyway, barroom conversation: I ended up explaining that solving our own problems means we can make sustainable progress rather than attempting to create a clean-room open source FB
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tantek aaronpk - let me restate what I said
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tantek 1. verify nickname is logged in via nickserv
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tantek 2. look it up on http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people
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tantek 3. get the domain from the hyperlink
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tantek 4. get their twitter handle from a rel=me link from that domain to twitter.com
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tantek if you're really paranoid you can make sure their twitter points back to their domain
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tommorris guy didn't end up buying it - it was difficult to get past the if-you-don't-replace-facebook-you've-failed thing.
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tommorris because "people will just use facebook".
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tantek tommorris - that's fine, those people also used AOL back in the day and said the same thing
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tantek "if you haven't replaced AOL you've failed" - whatever
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tantek trivially flawed methodology
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tommorris yep, and MySpace and MSN/AOL/Yahoo IM
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tantek bingo
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tommorris and friendster and flickr and so on
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tantek just tell him he's welcome to go on being a sharecropper
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aaronpk tantek: yes i'm good on steps 1-4. I am now unsure what your thought is for the tweet text
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tantek !tell aaronpk just do it like this.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tommorris the problem with trying to out-facebook facebook is a single individuals can't compete in the same way that a company can
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tantek now say something aaronpk
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aaronpk hi
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 24 seconds ago: just do it like this.
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tantek boom
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aaronpk but what should the *tweet* be
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tantek sigh
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tantek @aaronpk: @t left you a message 24 seconds ago: just do it like this.
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aaronpk the point is to ping someone via twitter so that they know there's a message for them on IRC
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aaronpk there won't be a delay
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tommorris the analogy I ended up using was house building. the people who build their own houses haven't failed if other people don't live in them. and sharing house-building-practices means other people can join in
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tantek @aaronpk: @t wanted me to tell you: just do it like this.
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tantek better:
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tantek @aaronpk: @t wanted me to tell you: just do it like this. … http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-05-30#t1369951235
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tantek so Loqi just tweets out the @-to: @-from "wanted me to tell you:" ellipsed-message-to-fit permalink-to-IRC-log where @-from referenced @-to
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tantek e.g. when I referenced @julien51, Loqi could have tweeted out:
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tantek @julien51: @t wanted me to tell you: if you can get on Twitter, you can get on IRC … http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-05-30#t1369950636
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tantek make sense?
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aaronpk even without the !tell?
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tantek yes
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tantek it'll only work for those of us "registered" on http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people anyway so that's fine
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aaronpk so like if the IRC line starts with an @-reference, try to look up the people and tweet
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tantek precisely
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aaronpk and also with !tell when using an IRC nick
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tantek huh?
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tantek nah - I think those are better served *in IRC* only
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tantek sometimes you really do just want to time a !tell to whenever the person actually returns to IRC and is thus presumably ready to engage
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tantek I don't want every !tell to immediately tweet
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aaronpk ok
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tantek but an @-reference, that's fair to poke the person
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tantek mixes cross-site metaphors/conventions.
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aaronpk but now we don't need to look up the person's twitter name because you're explicitly mentioning it
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tantek you need to look up MY twitter name
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tantek the @-from
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tantek it's only the @-to that's being explicitly mentioned
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aaronpk right
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tantek plus that puts a high enough barrier on randoms in IRC trying to troll Twitter that it should be fine
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aaronpk that will also be incentive to get people to add themselves to the IRC-People page
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tantek yes
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aaronpk tommorris: I don't understand this #freenode channel. the docs say to jump in there and ask for a cloak, but nobody seems to be replying, they're all just arguing about shit http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks
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tantek and thus incentive to sign into the wiki
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tantek and thus incentive to add IndieAuth support to their site
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tantek etc.
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tommorris aaronpk: that sounds like IRC to me.
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aaronpk that channel reminds me about all the bad parts of irc
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aaronpk that page also says feel free to /msg someone, but I don't know if I want to piss some random op off
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tantek heh
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tommorris aaronpk: this is why I got mine through Wikipedia ;)
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aaronpk hah. can we get an indiewebcamp cloak?
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tantek can't be bothered. IRC doesn't have proper URLs for nicknames
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tommorris we could probably get Freenode to give us a cloak for microformats and use that to hand out cloaks
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tantek unlike email
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bret \
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bret oops
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aaronpk ok how do we get a microformats cloak?
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tantek why bother again?
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aaronpk i don't remember
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bre.tc edited /IRC_People (+39) "Added myself to the IRC list" (view diff)
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bret aaronpk: I have had some decent experiences ops in the #freenode channel, just state your question and wait, and try again later in the evening if nobody gets back to you. thats how I took over this abandoned irc nick register :)
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bret also ty for making public those web mentions
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bret I'm trying to piece together some simple Javascript based off of the octopress code, but I might just have to wait for http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0596517742 to show up before I get to far
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iamshane.com edited /push-vs-pull (+127) "added a couple pro-pull references" (view diff)
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tantek bret - not AFAIK. presumably you'll need CryptoAPI support for that
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aaronpk i'll update the logs in a bit
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aaronpk fighting other things right now
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tantek https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcrypto-api/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html
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bret its 2013 and all we realistically have set up for voice and video over the web is skype and google hangouts.. makes me :(
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bret none of which could be considered secure
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tantek bret - Facetime is encrypted I believe
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bret by apple
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hadleybeeman Tantek, I'm still confused about what you're trying to get me to see.
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bret skype is too, but its the lame kind of encryption
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bret hadleybeeman: the bot that logs the irc went down, but I presume he was pointing out that the conversation *should* be documented there
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bret typically
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tantek hadleybeeman - nevermind, the logs are behind since we lost our logging bot Loqi due to the aforementioned "internet storm" which seems to indicate cross-backbone packet losses are quite high right now. http://www.internetpulse.net/Main.aspx?Metric=PL
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hadleybeeman Ah okay. I thought that might be where you were trying to go.