#indiewebcamp 2013-06-27
2013-06-27 UTC
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tantek.com edited /responses (+992) "move citations of posts / discussion threads to related section" (view diff)
# tantek.com edited /responses (+758) "/* object of action */ debunk common usage, note utility of "liked-*" pattern, suggest other possibilities like "liked-object", "liked-post"." (view diff)
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# tantek.com edited /comment (+146) "/* Update a comment */ handle another update scenario, when comment no longer links to the original, treat it like a deleted" (view diff)
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# 
JonathanNeal hello
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bret I have to go do something right now, but I am just going to leave this idea sitting here for when I get back: Find a way for IRC logs to be microformatted so that we can see how they fit into all of these indieweb mention/reply development. IRC plays a huge part in our colaborations, and the log pages is IRCs extension into the "web"
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aaronpk bret: yes, definitely: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-25#t1372212712
# aaronpk probably will look something like http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-25/1372212712/aaronpk
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# aaronpk it didn't get the location from benwerd's post for some reason http://news.indiewebcamp.com/post/werd.io/event/51c94deebed7de5c2386a1b4/unofficial-portland-post-indiewebcamp-meetup
# aaronpk ok here's some simple markup http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2013-06-26
# aaronpk still need to add 1) permalink pages for individual lines and 2) map IRC nicks to domain names from the irc-people page http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message on 6/25 at 12:24pm: what do you think of this proposed way to handle deleting (and deleted) comments? http://indiewebcamp.com/deleted
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@sandeepshetty #converspace now has a nice Recent Mentions page: http://www.sandeep.io/mentions #indieweb
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erikmaarten aaronpk++
# erikmaarten for coming up with the karma idea!
# erikmaarten aaronpk, don't you think karma or something like that could be implemented on a broader scale, across the indieweb?
# erikmaarten as a means of showing appreciation/trust
# erikmaarten with karma points being possible to validate with the sender of those karma points
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barnabywalters erikmaarten: do indieweb likes/favourites not already do that?
# erikmaarten barnabywalters: I was thinking about that for a moment, but karma could be more of a trust network
# barnabywalters (by which I mean the multiple working implementations of indie likes)
# erikmaarten but in a sense, you're rigth
# erikmaarten it depends on how one thinks of likes
# erikmaarten comparing to how likes are used on facebook, there is usually not much consideration going into them
# barnabywalters erikmaarten: which is dependent on how they’re displayed and how they influence future content
# barnabywalters has lots of thoughts hashed out from previous IRC conversations about this which need writing down
# erikmaarten well, yes
# erikmaarten it quite depends :)
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# erikmaarten I think I haven't been very optimistic about likes because of the facebook-y connotations
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# erikmaarten but thinking of it that way is probably just a bad habit
# erikmaarten barnabywalters: wouldn't it be good if likes were somehow restricted? So that each like would be more valuable?
# @sandeepshetty The Recent Mentions page on #converspace now links directly to the mention id anchor on the post page http://www.sandeep.io/mentions #indieweb
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: you around?
# sandeepshetty yo! I'm seeing duplicate mentions on http://www.sandeep.io/mentions from you... problem at your end or mine?
# sandeepshetty and did you resend an older mention?
# sandeepshetty sorry haven't looked into my db yet.. was the date on the target or source?
# sandeepshetty also there seems to be some cruft in your gravatar link... it's got the link itself again as a query params... I think you can remove that.
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pfefferle you can delete this one http://notizblog.org/2013/06/27/converspace-activity-syntax/
# sandeepshetty I'll actually finish implementing delete tonight so you can delete it yourself :)
# sandeepshetty I meant *will* be finishing tonight
# pfefferle have you seen https://github.com/converspace/converspace/issues/2
# sandeepshetty I tried removing some of the cruft and it still works so there seems to be some bug in it
# barnabywalters erikmaarten: how were you thinking? certainly this is something I’ve thought about in the past (flattr, restribted “love” vs limited like, tangible like outcome such as printing), but all of those are either silo-specific or dependant on implementations
# barnabywalters “value” of likes is difficult to judge
# barnabywalters and what is the benefit of it?
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: RE converspace#2 should be a config issue.. most probably with the domain..
# barnabywalters which is why I personally prefer more tangible verbs like bookmark
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: also RE http://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/ it basically one post type but does some special handling based on machine tags: http://indiewebcamp.com/plaintext#Experiments
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: what have you setup on your development.conf.php file?
# pfefferle define('SITE_BASE_URL', 'http://127.0.0.1/converspace/');
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: put it in a gist.. we can edit it there..
# sandeepshetty the whole file..
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: BTW this was about the gravatar link http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-27#t1372339205
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: is this (http://127.0.0.1/converspace/) where its installed on your system?
# sandeepshetty wait lets do this in the task and not create noise on IRC
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: I think I know what the problem is.. comment on the issue
# sandeepshetty s/comment/commented
# erikmaarten barnabywalters: Well, I don't know how to go about creating such a system. If it's a distributed system, it seems everybody can just make an implementation that doesn't take any limits into account. Or if everybody had their own 'like' aggregator on their own site, one could figure out values of likes according to one's personal standards. That might work out, and in that case no limits would have to be imposed on anyone. That
# erikmaarten might be very resource-intensive though, except for figuring out the likes targeted at oneself.
# sandeepshetty did it work?
# erikmaarten barnabywalters: and I quite like the flattr-style dilution of influence, though I don't think it's ideal for donations ...
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: reopening the same task
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: Converspace hasn't been packaged yet to be used by others... but I'm glad you installed it.. motivates me to work on it :)
# barnabywalters sandeepshetty: that is one of the few good reasons I’ve heard to open-source entire products instead of just useful components
# sandeepshetty yeah it's part of the reason I open sourced it from the start :) plus IMO, it's always better to get as many eye on code as possible.. like how pfefferle caught the fact that I wasn't validating that the u-like/repost wasn pointing to target
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# sandeepshetty you mean for a post?
# sandeepshetty just add .as to the url
# sandeepshetty .mf2 will give you the mf2 json
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: 127.0.0.1/1.as?
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: I meant 127.0.0.1/converspace/1.as
# barnabywalters I use /index.fmt for my index page
# sandeepshetty nope.. only posts have them...
# sandeepshetty .fmt?
# sandeepshetty barnabywalters: I have to get around to that soon...
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: ?
# barnabywalters sandeepshetty: really it’s only for two things: people wanting to play with my data by hand, and for my JS to get a copy without having to make a separate API
# pfefferle http://127.0.0.1/converspace/1.xyz returns a fatal error
# barnabywalters I don’t actually expect any standards/implementations to use that data
# barnabywalters s/expect/want
# sandeepshetty barnabywalters: Haven't got around to it becuase you just get it from my homepage using php-mf2
# barnabywalters sandeepshetty: exactly, that’s how everyone should get all data off our sites. .json URLs are good for debugging or quickly playing with data
# barnabywalters pfefferle: I tried using AS for a while and got annoyed with it
# sandeepshetty I'm toying with the idea of interop with pump.io using AS json...
# sandeepshetty that way I get to explore/lern pump,.io as well
# barnabywalters if/when there’s actual, tangible value in publishing DRY-violating copies of my data I might start publishing it
# barnabywalters sandeepshetty: can pump subscribe to arbitrary AS-JSON feeds or do you have to do message posting and other infrastructral stuff too?
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: funny I didn't get a fatal error for http://127.0.0.1/converspace/1.xyz
# barnabywalters status.net could always subscribe to AS-ATOM feeds if they were PuSH enabled
# sandeepshetty barnabywalters: IIRC, you have to push AS to it and receive AS
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: nope.. on dev I have E_ALL
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# barnabywalters sandeepshetty: data has to be sent on the wire? that seems unwebbish
# barnabywalters but I suppose it is a “stream server”
# sandeepshetty barnabywalters: yeah plus there isn't a hub.. that's one of the reasons it's written in node.js i think.. to handle lots of connection
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: what was the line no on the fatal error?
# pfefferle Fatal error: Cannot redeclare hcard_photo_fallback() (previously declared in /Users/matthias/Sites/converspace/templates/index.html.php:148)
# 
@caseorganic @Moniker42 Mainly #pdxtech, #indiewebcamp and #nspdx iOS developers) and a bunch of private channels hosted on servers run by friends.
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: ok you have an older version.. haven't pushed yet.. pushing now...
# sandeepshetty pfefferle: Pushed. I work directly on master because no one else uses it yet.. but I should move to feature branches soon...
# sandeepshetty gtg\
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# barnabywalters bah. I want to make a service which sends webmentions for replies, retweets and favourites on twitter, but the twitter API just doesn’t accommodate it
# barnabywalters you can get the favourite_count of a tweet but not the actual tweets which favourited it, same for replies, etc etc
# barnabywalters pfefferle: yeah, there might have been some way to verify them though
# barnabywalters like looking on a users favourite list page
# barnabywalters yeah, and there’s no “show me all tweets which are in reply to this tweet” endpoint
# barnabywalters although actually we could crawl that from the web version…
# barnabywalters hm, maybe there is some potential here
# barnabywalters a little service which you hook up your feed to, and it periodically crawls the syndication permalinks for new replies. If there are new ones, it sends you webmentions for their permalinks
# pfefferle i think you can find the linked tweets through the search api https://dev.twitter.com/docs/api/1.1/get/search/tweets
# barnabywalters backfeed for free, based purely on open standards — no need for all creators to integrate with the API
# barnabywalters pfefferle: I’m thinking it might not actually be needed, for replies at least
# barnabywalters which IMO are the most interesting and valuable form of feedback
# barnabywalters pfefferle: yeah, that’s another thing the service could do
# barnabywalters I’m finishing up my real work for the day, I might try to build this
# barnabywalters pfefferle: where do you work?
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# barnabywalters pfefferle: that would be very very cool! also have you seen http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly ?
# barnabywalters moving, bbiab
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# barnabywalters pfefferle: that’d be one way to do it, IMO pubsubhubbub v2 or something like what I specced out on /pubsub would be more useful as a) it doesn’t limit content to mf, or even HTML and b) it leaves parsing mf to the client so they can use whatever parser and set it up however
# barnabywalters it’d be great to see either get built though!
# barnabywalters I have it in the “eventually” section of my todo list
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# barnabywalters pfefferle: that would be great! I’m currently working on the twitter reply webmention shim
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# barnabywalters aaronpk: what is the status of twitter handling in php-mf2-shim? I need it for a thing, just cloned it and ran tests
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# barnabywalters aaronpk: seems to be finding tweets twice… I’m going to fork + hack on it for a bit
# barnabywalters making a service which shims reply webmentions for replies posted on twitter
# barnabywalters aaronpk: which fork of the shim is the canonical one?
# barnabywalters aaronpk: ha, no not initially
# barnabywalters ideally without using the API at all
# barnabywalters hence the shim
# barnabywalters okay, forking
# barnabywalters aaronpk: replies are shown on permalink pages ;)
# barnabywalters one case in which the web interface (user needs) are better than the API (bizdev restricted crap)
# barnabywalters you could even get favourites from the web UI (and not API), if only they had permalinks :(
# barnabywalters tantek: yeah, but then it’s a like of your content from it’s POSSEd copy, which is just weird
# barnabywalters I’m not ruling it out (I think there is another way too) but not as high priority as replies
# barnabywalters tantek: it is weirder as it’s YOUR possed copy of YOUR content favouriting YOUR content as someone else ;)
# barnabywalters mirrored POSSE conversations make sense
# barnabywalters tantek: exactly :)
# barnabywalters aaronpk: yes
# barnabywalters tantek: it wouldn’t be if the favourites actually had permalinks
# barnabywalters tantek: yep, that’s potentially valuable, but probably best left up to individual creators who want to implement it
# barnabywalters idea of the shim is that we can pretty bolt on open standards to silos (with a little shimming of twitter)
# barnabywalters tantek: great idea!
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# aaronpk you could just make one up with a fragment? https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/xxxx#favorited-by-barnabywalters
# barnabywalters tantek: sure, I’m totally wanting to build that now
# barnabywalters I’m having major *too many things to build* problems — is this because I have a job and half a social life, or because my experience/my tools are lacking, I wonder
# barnabywalters tantek: hah, syncronicity — was actually going to do some research on exactly that. where is it?
# barnabywalters after ranting extensively about it on IRC a few days ago
# barnabywalters I watch the IRC logs, not recent changes
# barnabywalters looks
# 
tantek so I expanded on http://indiewebcamp.com/like and I wrote up http://indiewebcamp.com/favorite
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# barnabywalters argh I never thought I’d say this but I actually don’t like CSS selectors for this job
# barnabywalters because xpath does relative queries
# barnabywalters aaronpk: the mf parser wouldn’t exist without relative queries
# barnabywalters if xpath just had a way of doing sane class selectors it would be more bearable
# barnabywalters what are they?
# barnabywalters and whilst I’m ranting, what is it with twitter and weird amounts of blank lines?!
# barnabywalters 16 blank lines inbetween the last attribute and the > — WTF?
# barnabywalters newspaper sites do it too, but why?!
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# tantek oh, so you need to implement: http://indiewebcamp.com/original-post-discovery
# 
KevinMarks what's a self-hosted cloud app?
# KevinMarks a webserver in your clothing?
# aaronpk http://getcloudapp.com/ just really simple photo / file sharing
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# 
benwerd Oh, hey, Webmention for Elgg. Good luck getting that accepted into core.. https://github.com/mapkyca/elgg-webmention
# KevinMarks oh, cloudapp is a brandname.
# aaronpk was inspired by this: https://github.com/jclem/gifify
# KevinMarks sounds like camlistore is close to that
# KevinMarks cries that GIF is still the dominant video standard
# KevinMarks have you noticed that no image sharing site considers SVG to be an image format?
# barnabywalters KevinMarks: yeah, that’s pretty sad
# KevinMarks aaronpk: you might think that... I think they're both using mp4 underneath
# KevinMarks h263 is patent free
# barnabywalters but, much as I hate to say it, I often prefer to use gif and raster images purely because they are tangible
# barnabywalters you can barely drag and drop a SVG onto your desktop and then do anything with it, let alone video
# barnabywalters raster images and gifs are tangible and understandable — everyone can grab an image and do something interesting with it
# barnabywalters bar is *much* higher for SVG and real video
# KevinMarks this is why I'm crying, given that QuickTime was over 20 years ago
# barnabywalters benwerd: trying to make video more tangible? that would be amazing
# KevinMarks and actually solved this problem well
# KevinMarks yes, the closedness is the bug
# KevinMarks and Apple Legal fucking things up with patents
# KevinMarks mp4 took the QT file format, then ignored a lot of what was good about it (datarefs especially)
# barnabywalters aaronpk: other nice thing about xpath relative queries is you can actually write reusable code
# KevinMarks in theory, yes
# barnabywalters closest thing to that I’ve done are my two little gifs: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/?tagged=gif
# KevinMarks hi neuro`
# barnabywalters greetings neuro`
# KevinMarks google wants us to stop being adults: http://thenextweb.com/google/2013/06/27/google-will-take-down-blogger-sites-on-june-30-which-host-adult-content-and-show-ads-for-adult-sites/
# KevinMarks wishes they'd ban juvenile content
# barnabywalters lol KevinMarks++
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# KevinMarks aaronpk: which is he best of the current personal tracking gadgets again? The jawbone up?
# barnabywalters first push to php-mf2-shim adds support for parsing tweet replies
# barnabywalters battery dying, goodnight all
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# aaronpk tantek: this page seems like it should be marked up as h-cards http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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# tantek aaronpk - this should be good enough for now: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card#Property_Details
# Loqi [mention] http://www.sandeep.io/92 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/plaintext#Experiments (webmention)
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# 
@erik_paulson @southpolesteve there's some really cool stuff happening around #indiewebcamp that's in that wheelhouse
# barnabywalters aaronpk: I think working on mf2-shim will finally push me to implementing this: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4QiLWq/
# barnabywalters okay, consider it added to my todo list
# barnabywalters dammit, every time I try making something cool I end up building another parser. how does this happen? :D
# barnabywalters parse all the things
# Loqi PARSE ALL THE THINGS http://loqi.me/7YW
# barnabywalters goodnight
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# www.sandeep.io edited /deleted (+2019) "/* 404 Discussion = */ debunk weak delete semantics of 404" (view diff)
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# www.sandeep.io edited /deleted (+301) "/* Issues */ Another use-case for which there isn't a good solution for remote deletion." (view diff)
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@benwerd I'm going to eat burritos and talk #indieweb tomorrow night: http://werd.io/event/51ccc9ecbed7deaf58e8ff5e/indieweb-burritos
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pdurbin I've got a guy trying to explain Linked Data to me: http://irclog.greptilian.com/sourcefu/2013-06-27#i_9736
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# KevinMarks I'm thinking of making an app that eats the intents on android
# KevinMarks the twitter app doesn't even handle the intents, it delegates them to the browser
# KevinMarks click that on android, it offers you twitter as an app (possibly among others)
# KevinMarks if you choose twitter, it bounces you out to the default browser, potentially requiring another login