#indiewebcamp 2013-07-23

2013-07-23 UTC
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aaronpk EHLOVader: I hadn't heard of whatpulse yet. sounds interesting
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aaronpk not sure I want to send all my keystrokes up to a service though :/
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donpdonp aaronpk: what could possibly go wrong?
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@tylerstalder Found a bunch of neat internet things, ended up in php, h-, and acronym hell. #indieweb
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@mcburton Been reading through the #indieweb wiki the past few days. Lot of good ideas here, but takes it work to understand http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page
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bret you would think a front end developer would have enough experience to understand MF2. It's not that hard of a concept
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bret maybe lacking the understanding of possible uses makes it more abstract, i dunno
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f-a mf2?
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christopheducamp.com edited /indieauth-fr (+2464) "[fr: sync'd translation]" (view diff)
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bret f-a microformats 2
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bret f-a, you should add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people :)
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f-a oh silly me
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christopheducamp.com edited /sign-in-use-cases-fr (+1666) "[fr: sync'd translation]" (view diff)
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f-a oh, I need to create an account
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bret Its easy! Just set up rel me auth for use with indie auth on your domain
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f-a indeed, indeed
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f-a alas, I don't think I can do it bret. Reading about the authentication, it seems it needs some sort of authentication provider (github, facebook, etc.) and I have none!
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bret Persona, but you must use an email address
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f-a (and it seems bret.io can be currently authenticated only via SMS)
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bret :/ thats not right
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f-a https://indieauth.com/auth?me=www.bret.io&redirect_uri=http%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2FSpecial%3AIndieAuth
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bret f-a, you can use SMS, and once you have that set up you could use google authenticator
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bret if you have a smart phone
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bret then remove your phone number
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f-a mail works only with persona, right?
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bret right now I think persona ony does email addresses
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bret with indieauth
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bret but persona in general has all the parts so that you can set up your own authentication provider
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bret i think
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bret im not really sure you about it though, you would have to talk to aaronpk about it
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bret He seems to be out of town for the moment
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f-a I am indeed setting up my auth provider with persona
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f-a (well, planning to, to be honest)
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bret that would be sweet! I'm not sure if indieauth needs to do anything though, since its whole goal is to establish your relationship between an auth provider and your domain you say you own
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f-a good night, see you tomorrow!
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Loqi don't let the bed bugs bite
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neuro` Good morning #indiewebists
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melvster good moaning
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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@xtof_fr ébauche traduction article position w3c de @benwerd
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cweiske http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Parsing_value_from_a_title_attribute - may I have <span class="dtstart value-title" title="2013-02-01T00:00:00+02:00">foo</span> ?
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@LouisDuverger #indieweb : 2013-07-23 http://christopheducamp.com/w/2013-07-23#indieweb
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cweiske tantek, ?
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tantek cweiske - no
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cweiske so I need two spans?
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tantek or just use the <data> element
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cweiske <date>? I can't
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cweiske I"m in xhtml1
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tantek <data>
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tantek why?
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tantek yeah, <data> is the modern replacement for the value-class-pattern value-title pattern
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tantek but for dates and times, yes, you should use the <time> element in particular
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tantek why are you using xhtml1?
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tantek (actually curious what's holding you back from HTML5)
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cweiske because it's our company's blog
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cweiske and I can't do a complete relaunch just to add mf2
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cweiske but I still want to express the date in machine-readable form
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cweiske so I don't have <data > nor <date> nor <time>
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cweiske apparently <span class="dt-published"><span class="value-title" title="2013....">...</span></span> is not supported by php-mf2
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cweiske tantek, is the following correct: <span class="dt-published"><span class="value-title" title="2012-02-16T16:14:47+00:00"> </span>16.02.2012</span> ?
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tantek btw there is no <date>, only <time> and <data>
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tantek yes that looks correct
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cweiske would the following be ok, too? <span class="dt-published"><span class="value-title" title="2012-02-16T16:14:47+00:00">16.02.2012</span></span>
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tantek cweiske - I'm betting your company's blog is already treated like HTML5 by browsers
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tantek especially if you're serving it as text/html
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tantek so the only thing you have to do is change the doctype
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cweiske I don't want to argue about that
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tantek ok
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tantek just saying, if you're not serving it as application/xhtml+xml, then it's not really "XHTML
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tantek "
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tantek the DOCTYPE is a lie
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cweiske my personal blog uses application/xhtml+xml
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cweiske except for IE
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tantek hard core!
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@benwerd RT @xtof_fr: ébauche traduction article position w3c de @benwerd
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cweiske I use CDATA with embedded XML often
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cweiske not using application/xhtml+xml breaks output
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melvster oops my homepage is text/html too
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melvster doh!
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tantek melvster - why doh?
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melvster i should change it to XHTML
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melvster because that's the doctype
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melvster i was fooled by the validator!
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Loqi yea
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melvster ah im XHTML + RDFa
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tantek melvster - sounds like extra work for no benefit
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melvster tantek: what is? Im not stupid enough or smart enough to ignore the best practices :)
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tantek well-formedness is useful. XHTML is not.
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tantek http://tantek.com/2010/302/b1/xhtml-dead-long-live-xml-valid-html5
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tantek XHTML is extra work for no benefit
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tantek RDFa is nearly always extra work for no benefit - since you can do 99% of what you need with microformats (or heck even microdata)
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melvster why extra work? my homepage is already XHTML?
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tantek more code, more maintenance, more fragility
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tantek see the blog post
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melvster tantek: the advantage of rdfa is to mash up data from different sources, i agree there's an overhead
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cweiske I like xml parsers
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cweiske and that they fail when it's broken
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cweiske because they prevent people from generating crap
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cweiske the whole paft of html5 that deals with broken html is against my beliefs
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cweiske but it's moot to argue about that here
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melvster ok fixed my header
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melvster cweiske: html5 is a sprawling mess
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melvster it should be called ghtml
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barnabywalters cweiske: I fixed that value-title parsing bug, pushed it to packagist and my demo
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cweiske that was quick
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barnabywalters cweiske: it was just an xpath and regex change :)
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cweiske "published": [
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cweiske "2012-02-16T16:14:47+00:00"
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cweiske ],
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cweiske cool
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cweiske thanks
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tantek melvster - if you're publishing the data, it's only from one source. I'm not sure what you mean by "mash".
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tantek and lastly, if the data from different sources is in microformats, that *that* is easier to combine into a single presentation, e.g. what people are doing with syndicating in h-entry data from multiple sources for indieweb comments.
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tantek nicely done barnabywalters!
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tantek cweiske - I too like xml parsers for linting, but never for user consumption.
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cweiske by using them for consumption, you force people to generate proper xml
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tantek melvster re: "sprawling mess" - the web is a sprawling mess, that's why it succeeded.
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barnabywalters cweiske: er, does “forcing” authors to do anything actually work in practise?
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cweiske it does on my own blog, and it works here at work
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cweiske either I have to complain in the QA stage about the issue
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cweiske or people notice it already during development
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tantek barnabywalters - forcing fragility onto users = fewer users using your web site/app/product.
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cweiske tantek, it also helps you prevent XSS issues
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tantek but doing well-formedness checks serverside, and other tests, are good for catching regressions early
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cweiske because you instantly see when it fails
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cweiske and users are even protected from xss :)
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tantek cweiske - not a common xss vector as far as I know
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tantek HTML5 actually has a lot more protections against XSS than anything that came before
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cweiske XSS means including bad HTML into the output of website
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cweiske s
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tantek so if XSS is your concern, you should definitely upgrade your system to HTML5
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cweiske so the XSS code has at least to be well-formed and keep the page code well-formed
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cweiske quality check for xss
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cweiske I like that
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tantek cweiske - that's not a relevant XSS vector
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cweiske for semanticscuttle, my bookmark manager, I use the two-sided strategy
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tantek see http://tantek.com/2013/053/t2/html5-security-realities-w3conf-slides-html-js-webapps for more on this
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tantek HTML5, security, XSS etc.
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cweiske when debugging/development mode is enabled, it outputs application/xhtml+xml
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cweiske when not, it's just text/html
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tantek if you're actually trying to improve the security of your site - solve actual problems
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cweiske tantek, I know
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tantek rather than giving a theoretical example
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tommorris hey indiewebsters
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tantek hey tommorris
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barnabywalters morning tommorris
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tommorris I was working on my location infrastructure at the weekend - got a nice screenshot: http://cl.ly/image/2t0r0w1q2e0S
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barnabywalters yay pigeons
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Loqi giggles
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tommorris it's a riff on the 'eagle' in FireEagle
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melvster tantek: the web hasnt yet succeeded ;)
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melvster tommorris: looks awesome
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tantek melvster - fundamentally changing human culture and commerce? I'd say that's quite a success.
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melvster tantek: still a *work in progress* so much more we can do ... if it stops here it will not have achieved it's full potential
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barnabywalters successful != finished
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tantek melvster - life is a work in progress, there will always be much more we can do. so it is irrelevant that there is much more we can do.
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tantek "achieving it's full potential" is a dumb criteria - as nothing can be realistically expected to do so.
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tantek dumb = impractical
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melvster tankek: I dont disagree, but there are milestones to reach before each person can call something a success / fail ... the web of documents has done quite well, commerce is poor, the web of data is just starting, when we get proper incentives onto the web ill call it a success, if we just end here it will not have met expectations ...
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tantek commerce has done just fine - feel free to check stats on online sales over time
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tantek web of data is already huge - and embedded in documents.
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tommorris Amazon would disagree with the idea that e-commerce has been a failure
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melvster amazon are not exactly impartial
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tantek the web of invisible parallel data is had had numerous false starts and is pretty doomed
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tommorris it took quite a while to get over the WS-* red herring.
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tantek once we decided to ignore parallel data efforts and go with microformats in HTML (2005), the web of data grew incredibly
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tommorris now we seem to be recreating the WS-* world but with JSON and impenetrable OAuth specs.
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tantek eventually even RDFa and microdata mimicked microformats (by adding to HTML)
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melvster micropayments should be as easy as accumulating points in a game, not this monolithic travesty we have today, controlled by gatekeepers
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tantek tommorris - who is recreating WS-*?
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tommorris tantek: every web 2.0 company on the planet building snowflake JSON APIs
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tantek tommorris - indeed. sounds worse than WS-* :)
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melvster web commerce is a train smash it's simply ported the tired old 20th century shopping model online
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tantek melvster - not a smash - it's growing every year
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tantek your analogy is false
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melvster publishing documents is easy, paying is hard, there's no financial commons, there's no indie web of money
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melvster facebook make money from other people's content, the content providers dont get paid ... incentives should be aligned with value creation
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tantek melvster - if you're interested in alternatives to selling things on the web, take a look at Mozilla Marketplace
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melvster tantek: mozilla stuff is problematic because persona dont support indieweb indentifiers, they are in the church of 'your email address is your identity'
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tantek melvster - we already have the facebook make money from other people's content problem documented on the /why page:
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/why
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melvster tankek: good! we can fix it!
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tantek melvster - you can use your name at your own domain as an indieweb persona identifier
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tantek melvster - not we, each one of us
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melvster tantek: no, because they overload the identifier with email delivery, so without running an email provider I cant even do that, not that I would want to
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tantek no you can forward your email
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melvster no thanks
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melvster im happy with my email address
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tantek just proving you can do it
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tantek as opposed to "don't support" - which was your assertion
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melvster i stand by my comment
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melvster they have overloaded email for 3 different purposes
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tantek melvster - if you want to "fix it" - I challenge you to publish your notes on http://melvincarvalho.com/ instead of https://twitter.com/melvincarvalho
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tantek until you do that, you're all talk :P
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melvster and it's not necessary at all
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melvster tantek: challenge accepted!
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melvster im actually just writing a microblogging service!
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melvster this second
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melvster :)
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tantek great, until then, focus on getting that working, rather than the handwaving
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melvster wait
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tantek wonderful! what's your microblogging project called?
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tantek is it open source?
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melvster i said mozilla was problematic, as it has design flaws, in response to the suggestion of using marketplace, that's not hand waving
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tantek all your stuff about commerce is handwaving
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melvster tantek: yes it's open source, im writing a pane for The Tabulator, to do microblogging, if you know that project?
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tantek melvster - I don't - let me know when you have something (anything) of it running on melvincarvalho.com
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tantek until then, not really interested to hear about it
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tantek (any more about it)
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tantek deploy something, then itereate
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tantek iterate even :)
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melvster tantek: fair enough, I actually do run a blog and a semantic microblog on melvincarvalho.com already, but it's not granular enough, ie tweets should be portable, so im writing my own
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barnabywalters melvster: interesting, what do you mean by portable?
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melvster barnabywalters: the design concept is here http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/CloudStorage.html the idea is that storage in the cloud is a commodity, you can have one or more workspaces, all linked to and discoverable from your indieweb identity
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tantek melvster - right, I don't see any notes ("microblog" posts) on melvincarvalho.com, nor do I see any POSSE of them on https://twitter.com/melvincarvalho
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tantek so when you say "run a blog and a semantic microblog on melvincarvalho.com already" - there's no evidence of it on melvincarvalho.com
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melvster well im trying to move away from twitter :) im doing a 2 part blog explaining how it's done ... here's part 1 : http://www.w3.org/community/rww/2013/07/19/tabulator-creating-a-new-pane-part-1/
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melvster sure there is
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melvster tho im not much of a blogger
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melvster Links
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melvster My Blog
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melvster My Semantic MicroBlog
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melvster however the semantic blog im about to remove because it's buggy
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melvster see http://melvincarvalho.com/smob/
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melvster and http://melvincarvalho.com/blog/
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melvster tommorris: you might be interested in the tabulator post above, there's lots of linked data libraries in there
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tantek.com edited /why (+166) "add an explicit point about disliking seeing your content surrounded by ads, in contrast to selling of your content outright" (view diff)
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tommorris haven't tried tabulator for a while. may do so
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tommorris last time I used it, I mostly did so in order to produce a screenshot saying that danbri worked for Darth Vader
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tantek.com edited /why (+1) "'" (view diff)
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neuro` Hmm I fear I get disconnected
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tantek btw re: Mozilla Marketplace and testing commerce in apps with receipts etc., see: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2044203/firefox-os-simulator-adds-commerce-feature-for-app-developers.html
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melvster lol
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melvster tantek: yes im part of the web payments community group working with mozilla on some of this stuff, they are generally excellent, but persona is the weak link
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tantek anyway, I'm not sure we can do any better than that here in #indiewebcamp, so unless you have something specific commerce related you're implementing on your own site, it's largely handwaving (as far as indieweb is concerned), and better to just keep incrementally improving things in that CG
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melvster tantek: yes agree, I would happily have reused mozilla stuff if they didnt restrict so much, but at this point it may need a rewrite, with partial bootstrap
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tantek fine, I'm just letting you know since you seem to keep bringing up commerce/micropayments here and it's largely just been repeated handwaving. at some point, you need to go ship something, or you're just adding noise to the channel.
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melvster tantek: ok :)
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tantek (which is maybe fine in a #commerce or #micropayments channel, but so far it's just been noise in #indiewebcamp)
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melvster tantek: that's fair enough, but it was you that brought up commerce, I was replying that commerce is poor, imho, I'll leave it at that
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tantek except I wasn't talking about hypothetical futures, I was citing *existing* online commerce as one of many examples of the web succeeding
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melvster pleads the fifth :)
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hupili.net edited /POSSE (+1077) "/* Sites */" (view diff)
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hupili.net edited /PESOS (+770) (view diff)
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barnabywalters hupili: thanks for documenting your PESOS use, how easy is it to get data out of Chinese social networks? do they have good APIs?
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barnabywalters you should make a SNSAPI page and move your links on the POSSE there
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Loqi yea!
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hupili barnabywalters: the three sites I'm regularly using all have APIs. Although not very good, they are usable.
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hupili Their design basically follows FB or Twitter style. The main difficulty is that every site gives a different data structure so you have to read a lot docs to operate all of them. We made SNSAPI to shift the burden of app developers.
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hupili Thanks for the tip, I'm make a link for the tool. :)
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tommorris I should probably document how easy it is to PESOS Foursquare
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tommorris if you set up an HTTPS endpoint, you can get Foursquare to POST back your checkins live as you make them.
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barnabywalters tommorris: seriously? yes please document that, I’d actually sign up for foursquare in order to use that
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tommorris the only difficult bit is it has to be HTTPS, and you have to authenticate with the API via OAuth once
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hupili.net edited /User:Hupili.net (+1048) "/* HU, Pili */" (view diff)
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hupili.net edited /POSSE (-45) "/* Sites */" (view diff)
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@glennjones Looking at how to add http://webmention.org/ to new blog - going to be interesting time designing and coding it cc @indiewebcamp
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@BarnabyWalters @glennjones yay! Looking forward to exchanging mentions :) #indieweb (http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4R9D3A/)
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hupili.net edited /POSSE (-15) "/* Sites */" (view diff)
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hupili.net created /SNSAPI (+647) "Created page with "= SNSAPI = * GitHub: https://github.com/hupili/snsapi * PyPI: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/snsapi/ * Maintainer: [[User:Hupili.net]] SNSAPI is a lightweight cross platform '''m..."" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /SNSAPI (+187) "stub, dfn, headers, see also, linky linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /SNSAPI (+4) "summary" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /syndication-models (-6) "/* Syndication Models */ -- => :" (view diff)
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tantek bret - nicely done on the improved reply-context! http://bret.io/2013/07/10/t1/
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barnabywalters tantek: btw, have you seen twitter’s in-feed contexts any more?
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barnabywalters I spotted them in emails but not on twitter.com
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tantek bret I noticed that URL with reply-context says "Mentions Loading…" (but never seems to complete one way or another)
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hupili.net created /SNSRouter (+1143) "Created page with "= SNSRouter = * GitHub: https://github.com/hupili/sns-router * Maintainer: [[User:Hupili.net]] SNSRouter is a web UI built upon SNSAPI where one can read an aggregated timeline..."" (view diff)
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cweiske IIRC that's some issue with aaronpk's pingback.me
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cweiske which doesn't allow CORS
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tantek cweiske - then the front-end should compensate for that and time-out accordingly
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tantek regardless of any such limitations of the back-end
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cweiske don't tell me
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@pfefferle @glennjones if it is a wordpress blog try this plugin https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention /cc @indiewebcamp
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EHLOVader I had issues with unicode and ended up installing this http://gschoppe.com/blog/fixing-unicode-support-in-google-chrome/
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EHLOVader I noticed now that a few sites, like bootstrap and password fields in chrome are showing the wrong character... seems all of your sites seem to use unicode a lot also
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EHLOVader I am a windows chrome user, anyone hear of this issue before?
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EHLOVader this is what I see from Bret's site... http://i.imgur.com/rWDSffI.png
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f-a mhhh, encoding issues...
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f-a are you sure you are not forcing a particular encoding,EHLOVader (not being a chrome user, I don't know how to change encoding in that browser)
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EHLOVader I have tried various encodings
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EHLOVader three are stickied
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cweiske the browser should detect the encoding itself
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EHLOVader http://i.imgur.com/6K8qxcR.png
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EHLOVader yup
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EHLOVader it has a place to set encoding
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EHLOVader not sure what that is for
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f-a what cweiske said
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f-a (to be honest, sometimes you have to fiddle with CJK pages)
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f-a (or at least I do)
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@glennjones @pfefferle @indiewebcamp Looks interesting how do I install it, just use the zip from github or do I need to package it in someway ?
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tantek pfefferle - thanks for helping out gjones :)
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@pfefferle @glennjones you have to unpack the zip into the plugins folder and activate it through the plugins menu… that's it /cc @indiewebcamp
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pfefferle tantek no problem :)
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pfefferle btw I updated my wordpress theme (http://wordpress.org/themes/sempress)… it now supports the mf2 comment draft (http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-brainstorming#microformats2_h-feed_p-comments)… thanks to barnabywalters for his feedback
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tantek pfefferle - that's great!
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@pfefferle @glennjones and don't forget to use mf2 markup in your theme /cc @indiewebcamp
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tantek barnabywalters - I just checked my desktop twitter.com stream and see several replies happening but no threading :/
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barnabywalters pfefferle: oh cool! and live on your domain too — great stuff
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pfefferle barnabywalters and tantek thanks
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tantek pfefferle you can use #indiewebcamp instead of cc: @indiewebcamp
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gjones pfefferle we talk talk here rather than twitter - just updating wordpress at moment
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barnabywalters tantek: hm, weird. I finally managed to persuade twitter not to send me emails but until I did I consistently saw them in those
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tantek the hashtag is enough for Loqi to see it and copy here
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Loqi yeah!
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barnabywalters thinking of putting mini reply contexts in my feed, seeing as I reply a lot
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pfefferle gjones yes, that's better ;)
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barnabywalters aiming for single line, truncating if necessary
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tantek barnabywalters - what's this "feed" you speak of ? ;)
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barnabywalters ??? IIRC feed was what we were referring to reverse-chronologically ordered lists of bits of content as
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barnabywalters specifically my notes
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barnabywalters as I don’t tend to write reply articles
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barnabywalters in the strict sense of reply as only making sense with context
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tantek !tell fdevillamil what is "((127.0.0.1:3000 mtLKir))" ?!? i.e. here: https://twitter.com/fdevillamil/status/359671340560691200
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tommorris "stream" tends to be another term people use for it.
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tommorris which nicely avoids the conflation of feed-as-in-content-in-reverse-chronological-order with feed-as-in-RSS/Atom-document
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barnabywalters we discussed this already, a few weeks back, I can’t remember if we actually documented it at all
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gjones pfefferle get error Parse error: syntax error, unexpected T_STRING, expecting T_CONSTANT_ENCAPSED_STRING ….. webmention.php on line 28
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pfefferle are you using php5.3 or above?
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pfefferle that's required by the mf2 parser
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tantek barnabywalters - yes, if you're referring to your /notes HTML page, I'd say "stream" is better than "feed"
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tantek the term "feed" is too polluted
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tantek.com edited /reply-context (+79) "note twitter in-stream reply contexts appear to be gone as of sometime in 2013-07" (view diff)
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tantek.com uploaded /File:example-reply-showing-url-context-tantek.png "from http://tantek.com/2013/190/t6/oauth-traded-evil-user-pass-dev-complexity-app-keys-tos"
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gjones pfefferle hosting company is saying its PHP5.3 for new accounts, but added a plug-in to display it and they are running PHP 5.2.17 on my server : (
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neuro` Publify is now capable of POSSE with Twitter \o/ https://github.com/fdv/publify/commit/8c262e8c4aeb2d414f5dc93cc1cbc77f8492e12e
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pfefferle gjones any chance to upgrade it?
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gjones pfefferle Not sure I will fire off an email. I am starting to recode my blog in node.js which will take a while, but it would be nice to see your plug-in working
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pfefferle gjones let me know if you still have problems (or feedback) after you got your php upgrade
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tantek neuro` congrats!
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tantek looking forward to your first POSSEd post via Publify :)
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tantek.com edited /reply-context (+422) "add screenshot for a simple tantek.com reply context, note what each example so far is showing" (view diff)
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tantek bret - you should add your reply context example with screenshot in a new subsection at the end of this section: http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#IndieWeb_Examples
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gjones pfefferle will do
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tantek !tell benwerd you should add a reply-context example from your site with screenshot in a new subsection at the end of this section: http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#IndieWeb_Examples
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek anybody else here displaying reply-contexts?
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pfefferle tantek kind of… but still some more work to do http://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/
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neuro` tantek: thank you. Taking the kids for a walk and I'll update my blog with the new code
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tantek neuro` looking forward to it! have a nice walk with the kids (good priorities :) )
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tantek pfefferle - I'm confused a bit by that reply.
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tantek why does it say "Commented on a post by Matthias Pfefferle." in an indented grey box?
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tantek isn't that page a comment on a post by Sandeep?
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tantek also on Sandeep's page it looks like your comment showed up twice?
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pfefferle tantek that's what i mean… this context is missing at the moment…
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tantek well you link to Sandeep's original post
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pfefferle tantek the gray box is only a quote and has nothing to do with the context
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pfefferle but the comments beneath are context sensitive
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tantek but a quote of what?
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pfefferle thats part of my comment
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pfefferle i wanted to say that i like the syntax
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pfefferle but as i mentioned i am not showing sandeeps original post at the moment… but the comments are also context sensitive...
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pfefferle tantek: if you click on the timestamp in the comments you see the original comment
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cweiske that link-to-original-on-timestamp is something you really have to get used to
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cweiske bothers me somehow
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pfefferle yes… have to add a real link at the end of the comment...
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tantek cweiske - it's the same as twitter @-replies
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cweiske i don't use twitter
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tantek the timestamps on @-replies in a thread all link to the permalink pages for each
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tantek so that's where that convention came from
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tantek re-use as it were
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tantek pfefferle - it's fine
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cweiske on twitter timelines may not be much space
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tantek I think everyone's who's displaying indieweb comments is linking back to the original reply posts via the timestamp
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cweiske but in a separate page, you could add a "$person wrote" and link that
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tantek simple/compact design is always useful
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tantek cweiske - it works like that on Twitter's "separate pages" as well
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tantek consistency and such
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tantek pfefferle - I just noticed that your blog header image has your article on open web
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cweiske as I said - you really have to get used to it
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tantek and the text in the right side of the image
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tantek mentions the unfortunate / defunct "<intent/>" element
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tantek pfefferle - I see now - there's no reply context there at all
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tantek on http://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/
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pfefferle there is, the whole comment thread
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tantek that's not reply-context, reply context is the stuff YOUR post is replying to, not the replies to your post.
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pfefferle kind of… because sendeep commented on his site http://www.sandeep.io/92
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pfefferle http://www.sandeep.io/95
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pfefferle it is a different way to display the context
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pfefferle i don't show only one comment, but the whole conversation
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tantek you're not showing the conversation *before* your post
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tantek that's the reply-context
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pfefferle but the original post i am commenting to is missing yes
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tantek that original post you are commenting to *is* the reply-context
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tantek the stuff *below* your post are comments on your post
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tantek they're two different things
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tantek http://www.sandeep.io/92 is a good example of this
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tantek on that reply, everything in the white box before "#converspace" is the reply-context
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pfefferle not really, because sandeep is not showing the whole conversation… he shows only the first answer
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tantek from "#converspace" to "#indieweb" is the reply itself that sandeep wrote
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tantek and then he has a clear "Comments" section below
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pfefferle if you look at http://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/#comment-214583 than it has the reply context
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tantek pfefferle - part of the point of developing indieweb reply-contexts is that even just showing *something* there is better than nothing. It doesn't need to show "the whole conversation"
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pfefferle but why not?
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tantek because having something working is better than nothing
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pfefferle it was no critic… just wanted to show the difference
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tantek http://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/#comment-214583 does not have the reply context because it doesn't show or link to the original post you're replying to: http://www.sandeep.io/55
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pfefferle no, i am replying to http://www.sandeep.io/92
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pfefferle the comment above
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pfefferle that's what i menat
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pfefferle meant
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pfefferle only a different way to display it
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tantek nope, that doesn't have a reply context either: https://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/?replytocom=214583
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tantek correction, it has a very small reply-context
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pfefferle yes, because i am not finished yet
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tantek the text "(this is a reply)" which is linked to http://www.sandeep.io/92
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pfefferle still a lot to do
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pfefferle not that easy to work with wordpress
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pfefferle to implement that
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pfefferle https://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/?replytocom=214583 should link to the same site as https://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/ with the right markup
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pfefferle i mean https://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/?replytocom=214583 should be the same site as https://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/ but with different markup
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tantek yes reply-contexts are interestingly difficult
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tantek bbiab
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pfefferle !tell tantek btw this is the name of my column in a german magazine about open-web stuff (header image) i can send you the article about the indieweb if you want… but it is german...
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gjones member:pfefferle working, need to get everything updated - http://glennjones.net/2013/07/playing-with-webmentions/
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pfefferle gjones http://glennjones.net/2013/07/playing-with-webmentions/#comment-142 :)
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pfefferle nice
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Loqi tantek: pfefferle left you a message 20 minutes ago: btw this is the name of my column in a german magazine about open-web stuff (header image) i can send you the article about the indieweb if you want… but it is german...
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tantek pfefferle - I think it's important for each post / reply / comment to have its own permalink (without query string). What Twitter did in this regard was quite clever.
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pfefferle tantek that should be no problem… i only have to change my mod-rewrite...
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pfefferle the next steps are: adding in-reply-context and admin backend to set reply links, nicer single views of comments (with context) and improving the markup
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benibur hi, I work on Cozy Cloud, a startup that propose a personal cloud you can "host, hack & delete".
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benibur I'll be in SF in august because we have been selected by mozilla web fwd, so I would be pleased to meet anyone involved in the personal data restitution.
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benibur I have seen that there is a meeting in the UK in september, I could join (we are in Paris, london is clother than San Francisco :-)
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barnabywalters welcome benibur
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barnabywalters yep, indiewebcamp UK will be happening just after dConstruct
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bret hey benibur
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barnabywalters do you have a personal URL? log in to the wiki and add yourself to the interested-in-participating list
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benibur I do have, but no public ressource :-)
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aaronpk benibur: I'll be in SF Aug 6-8, will you be there at that time?
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benibur I could easily add one if it is a condition !
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benibur (it would be the occasion to do one !)
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benibur @aaronpk : yes !
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benibur I arrive satuday the 27th of July, and leave the 26th of august.
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aaronpk cool! not sure exactly what's scheduled for me that week but i'm sure there will be some sort of indieweb meetup then!
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benibur I would love to meet you aaron if you can find time in your schedule !
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bret I want to buy a plane ticket but my paycheck is so freaking slow to show up :?
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bret.io uploaded /File:brert.png "Example of my relpy context as of right now."
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benibur definetly ok for a meetup on the 6th, 7th or 8th.
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bret.io edited /reply-context (+150) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Added an example of my reply context." (view diff)
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bret ok tantek, I added what I have for now
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aaronpk for anyone in Portland, feel free to sign up for our happy hour for OSCON tomorrow! http://pdxapihour2013.eventbrite.com/
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 3 hours, 4 minutes ago: you should add a reply-context example from your site with screenshot in a new subsection at the end of this section: http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#IndieWeb_Examples
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benwerd Question: is anyone planning to attend SXSW next year? And if so, are there plans for an Indieweb panel?
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benwerd If so, is there room for me and my chickens? And if not, I may try and set one up.
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barnabywalters sxsw is the one which it’s pointless to attend unless you’re old enough to get into US bars, right?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: lol!
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benwerd Kind of yes, kind of no.
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benwerd (Oh man, I remember that dilemma so well. US licensing laws are dumb.)
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aaronpk benwerd: I don't think I'm going this year actualy
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benwerd I don't at all blame you
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barnabywalters but indieweb sessions anywhere are good, so go for it if you’re going!
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aaronpk went last year and it's kind of turned into a giant corporate conference. it's still a good conference if you're doing bizdev and making deals with other companies, etc
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benwerd Right, it is exactly that
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benwerd I skipped last year
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benwerd previous year was already pretty bad
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aaronpk ah, well it's solidified itself last year as that
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benwerd But, hey, I work for an Austin startup.
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neuro` \o/ http://t37.net/st/8068-first-posse-post-from-a-getpublify-blog-next-clean-the-code-add-more-silos-improve-ux-mvz-t \o/
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benwerd neuro`: congrats!
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aaronpk neuro`: sweet! you should add 'class="u-syndication"' to the twitter link too!
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tommorris http://www.buzzfeed.com/jwherrman/the-internet-isnt-for-porn-the-web-is
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bret is it bad to apply a function to a bunch of array elements? https://github.com/bcomnes/bcomnes.github.io/blob/master/assets/js/webmention.js
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bret line 24
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bret also way cool neuro`!
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neuro` bret:, benwerd thank you
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bret that was super quick
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neuro` aaronpk: done, this will be added with the next push
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neuro` bret: what was super quick?
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aaronpk neuro`: awesome
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neuro` Can't backlog because of very sluggish connection
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aaronpk neuro`: also it seems there is something wrong with the mf2 markup: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ft37.net%2Fst%2F8068-first-posse-post-from-a-getpublify-blog-next-clean-the-code-add-more-silos-improve-ux-mvz-t
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neuro` aaronpk: hmm true, the problem comes from my theme, will fix this tonight, thank you
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neuro` I c/p the posts template which are OK, but that one is not
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aaronpk cool
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aaronpk heh, https://twitter.com/mvz/status/359729679483150336
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@mvz @fdevillamil shortened URL seems to be missing a slash
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aaronpk seems to be split pretty close to 50/50 of people who think the URL is missing a slash vs people who are annoyed there is no additional content after clicking the link
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aaronpk I first started publishing the shortlinks like tantek does, and switched to actually putting in a URL after I got too many "your URLs are missing a slash" messages
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neuro` Yes. Not sure what to do yet (mvz is one of my co maintainers)
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aaronpk my pattern is "(aaron.pk/XXXXX)" if there is no additional content, and "... aaron.pk/XXXXX" if there is
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aaronpk I still get a couple people commenting that they are annoyed there is no additional content after clicking the link, but after I explain the convention they say "ohh... that makes sense"
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neuro` I must confess I c/c Tantek way to do it. I actually first thought about how to do the stuff on my side before jumping on the #indiewebcamp boat
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bret aaronpk, did you see I got my pingback.me embed working?
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aaronpk bret: yeah!! nice!
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neuro` BBL, time to eat.
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bret is it just me or is the new G+ layout absolutely unreadable?
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@ndebock We want a decentralized socialweb. Thank you to all the indieweb doer and maker http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem via @xtof_fr
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@benwerd Judging by your responses across networks, I'll be submitting a #SXSW panel on #indieweb chickens. So, uh, look out for that.
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benibur funy, you mentionned ndebock : he is a french vc I now a little bit.
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benibur thanks to your link, I discovered the "W3C's Workshop on Social Standards" that will take place the 7 & 8th : I'll try to be there
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benibur any one goes there ?
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bret benibur: tank, benwerd and aaronpk will be there I think
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bret tantek*
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benibur ok thank you !
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bret Also,benibur, Loqi is a bot that forwards #indieweb tags to irc :)
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Loqi who, me?
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bret and wiki changes
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bret Yeah, Loqi, you
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benibur ok, sorry, didn't know :-)
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bret thats okay, the bot has a bit of a humanity complex
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benibur it seems that I am dumb enought to let the bot pass the turing test !
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bret don't be so hard on yourself, It happened to me too, and others
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benwerd The singularity is nigh
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benibur I am discovering the perspectives of indie web and the posse approach.
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benibur the alignment with our own project of "personal cloud" is amazing, i am surprised not to have heard more about you earlier !
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benwerd benibur: what's your project?
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benibur cozy cloud = a personal cloud = your personal server you administrate as easily as your smartphone
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benibur from a technical point of view, we are a pPaaS ( = a personal Platform as a Service)
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benwerd Nice! Do you know Johannes Ernst?
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benibur with a layer of abstraction above the data persistence (we called it the data system)
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bret benibur: you should sign up on the wiki and add yourself to this list: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people
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benibur no, i don't think so, let me check in my memory (google...)
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benwerd He works on something that's not a million miles away, and helped start the Personal Cloud meetup here in SF
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benwerd Anyway, I think something like that is really needed
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benwerd and the smartphone metaphor is REALLY good
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f-a irssi just decided to pick the very same shade of green for benibur and benwerd, leading me to believe what I read was a monologue xD
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bret colloquy picked very similar shades of blue
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f-a and the nicks are of the same lenght
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f-a silly clients!
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benibur johannes seems an excellent connection ! as iwill be one month in SF I will try to contact him.
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bret benibur: cozy cloud looks pretty cool!
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demis I've been using ownCloud for a while now and it's worked out great
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benibur btw, if anyone is interested in a mind sharing in SF (call it a meetup or an happy hour), please contact me ! ben@cozycloud.cc
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demis gives me complete cloud solution on my iDevices etc
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bret My attempt at my own cloud stopped when I reapplied how difficult nginx is if you don't know what you are doing
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bret ownCloud also looks good
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benibur owncloud is very interesting. Our approach is more modular.
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benibur on cozy, each app is a server (python, nodejs, ruby, php...)
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bret thats pretty cool!
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benibur on owncloud it is more the logic of plugins
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benibur everything in php, so if you like php, it's great.
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benibur bret: for now we only support nodejs
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bret I don't know php, but is a popular tool here
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benibur python is on the way
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benwerd That's really neat
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benwerd Woud love to play with it
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benwerd * would love
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benibur we are much younger than owncloud who raised quite a lot of money, where as we are still self founded
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benibur but i hop it will change quickly :-)
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benibur * hope
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benibur as we have been selected by mozilla to participate to their accelerator (web fwd), It will help us a lot !
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bret oh hey look at that pinboard is down
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bret gahhh
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demis can cozy be self hosted like owncloud?
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benibur demis, yes : cozy = a personal cloud you can host, hack and delete...
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benibur we will soon deliver an image of a virtual machine with the full stack installed.
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bret benibur: do you have a website or twitter
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benibur for now deploying can be tricky, but with a setup vm, it's easy.
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bret or cozy cloud powered blog :)
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benibur :-) nope, our site is not hosted on a cozy instance, shame on us !
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benibur our tech site : http://cozy.io/
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benibur our "corporate" site : https://www.cozycloud.cc/
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bret benibur: Check out http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood for inspiration to use your own code!
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benibur +1
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benibur but : the aim of a cozy is to host your personal data and services, not a web site that will deal with a client database and will pilote your cluster...
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benibur but my personal web site will soon be on my own cozy, I promise !
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benibur And hosting a personal indieauth server seems attractive too.
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bret That would be pretty sweet
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benibur I have to go deeper in your concepts, technologies and framework, but it seems quite easy, or even natural, to integrate a posse approach to Cozy.
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benibur I will dig into that opportunity during my stay in the US.
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bret There are going to be at least two indieweb session at that Social conference in SF I think
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bret I'm going to try and make it
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benibur social conference = the workshop the 7 & 8th of august ?
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bret yeah
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bret sorry forgot the name :)
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bret "Workshop on Social Standards: The Future of Business"
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benibur ok cool, i definetly try to be there. They require an "expression of interes", i will prepare mine quickly.
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neuro` I may be blind, can someone tell me why the content of http://t37.net/st/8068-first-posse-post-from-a-getpublify-blog-next-clean-the-code-add-more-silos-improve-ux-mvz-t is not parsed correctly at http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ft37.net%2Fst%2F8068-first-posse-post-from-a-getpublify-blog-next-clean-the-code-add-more-silos-improve-ux-mvz-t please?
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bret benibur: check out http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem for benwerd's paper. But all that is required is a paragraph of interest I think.
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benibur bret: yep, thanks !
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bret neuro`: are you having problems with the h-card?
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benibur bret: I hope I will meet you there, other wise contact me directly (I have a full month in SF, not much planned for now : objective = mind sharing with the ecosystem !)
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bret no, doesn't look like it
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demis benibur: one thing I really like is caldav/carddav support, is that available through the cozy apps?
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neuro` bret: no, the h-entry
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bret benibur: if I make it I will! I'm sure there will be some hack sessions when everyone is down there together
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benibur demis: caldav/cardav is curruntly the subject we are working on !
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demis okay sounds great, I look forward to trying it :)
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benibur again, we are young, but I think that our PaaS approach with a data federation between the apps is an interesting approach.
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benibur please provide us feedback to improve our work !
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demis being able to integrate with mobile devices is really important
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benibur (we have an irc if you need help : #cozycloud on freenode)
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benibur demis: we do have a strategy for mobile devices !
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benibur the data system is a service (a nodejs app) above a couchdb database.
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demis thats one thing with owncloud, you can setup an iphone to sync calendars, contacts, reminders, notes etc. they even have an app that works much like the dropbox app
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benibur the idea is to use the synchronisation of couch so that you can have a couchdb on your devices (laptop, smartphone, desktop, tablet...)
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demis sorry notes is incorrect, I am syncing notes via my imap email
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benibur this local couchdb will be sync with your server and your local apps will be able to access your data localy.
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bret neuro`: it looks like the mf p-name entry-title etc are ending up in a p tag
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demis that's a unique approach, could save a lot of traffic on mobile devices too
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bret neuro` you need to wrap the content with those classes using a div or something, or stick it in the class for the article
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benibur and guess waht is our first app on a device : a fuse driver that is connected to your couchdb : what means a dropbox feature.
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benibur I think we will release this in beta in november, and available early 2014
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bret benibur: you should start using it yourself before that
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benibur +2 !
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bret and once you get POSSE up and running you can use it will make it easier to use as your primary identity on the web
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benibur (but in fact we are already using it for ourselfves :-)
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bret delete "you can"
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bret awsome!
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neuro` bret: thank you
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neuro` will change this
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benibur bret: yes, posse is very interesting, i agree that we must get our data back, but silos are still required to share content.
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neuro` bret: I did exactly like http://tantek.com/2013/204/t1/eia2013-microformats-parsers-js-php-ruby markup
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benibur as mentionnd above, I will go deeper in your concepts and technologies to see how to integer your approach in our roadmap
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bret right the goal isn't to isolate ourselves, but to originate our data at home first… there is also PESOS… http://indiewebcamp.com/PESOS
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bret which is better than purely relying on a silo
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benibur bret: yep, i saw pesos et pesetas concepts on the indieweb site
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bret ah ok :)
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benibur but i have to go deeper in the tech to understand the way that you imagine that it can work.
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benibur it is very complementary of our approach : we make it easy to self host any service, you develop a standard to get your data back in your silo sync with external silos.
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bret I would talk to tantek and aaronpk when they are around, they have been doing this for a long time. There is also http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/ and http://www.sandeep.io who have really capable implementations of these ideas
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bret and I presume you have already spotted benwerd idno
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bret It would be awesome for something like own cloud or cozy cloud to join in
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benibur It does seem promising.
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benibur Cozy is creating your personal, private silo.
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benibur but we now need to bring it to social
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benibur the idea of posse : post once syndicate everywhere, is exactly what we need.
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benibur you have your data on your server, and you can then syndicate it on any public silo.
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bret some people who have been designing tools beyond their own use have been struggling with how to deal with the restrictive twitter api. I think neuro` was talking about that the other day
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bret neuro`: If you look at the DOM of your page, those classes are in their own <p> tag
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neuro` bret: ok, thank you.
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neuro` bret: found out, I'm using markdown as a text filter, and it was wrapping my status into a <p/> while I was already wrapping it into a <p/>, thank you for your help.
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neuro` Now, my mf2 implementation is OK
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bret Doh!
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bret Awsome!
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neuro` Need to update my thème to be mf2 as well
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bret yeah me too
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f-a (random unrelated rant) why is pump.io missin rss support? :ccccccc
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neuro` I was full MF in 2006/2007
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aaronpk cause rss is dead
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bret f-a: rss is still the primary way to track lots of sites for many people
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neuro` RSS is dead baby, RSS is dead
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f-a bret: don't tell me! I run newsbeuter with some 200~ rss feed
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@gregoire @jihaisse pour le feedback des tests #POSSE et #wordpress : @xtof_fr a partagé sur le wiki #indiewebcamp =&gt
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-fr#POSSEr_un_commentaire
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aaronpk evan said he'd be happy to accept a pull request from someone if they want to add mf2 markup to pump.io
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bret I run fever, and track all my sites that way… what is a better alternative?
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bret (other than maybe an open source rss reader)
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f-a dead?
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neuro` I wish I had the time to build an open source reader
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bret I think for all of this rss dead is talk, someone needs to build a json feed parser and/or h-atom parser…. at LEAST before we can really say rss is dead… because it is at least, UNdead
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bret and by parser I really mean a tool my dad could use just like his rss reader
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f-a my computing skills are probably on par with your dad, so I would welcome the effort. Imagine an activitystrea.ms reader
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@gregoire @xtof_fr coucou l’ami :) @jihaisse (un bon #indiewebcamp France évangeliste ;)) n’arrive pas á te suivre sur twitter /cc @pcouzon @Pierre_A
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neuro` Easiest way would be to do the frotend that would query a backend set of APIs for rss / json...
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bret maybe news blur will start supporting json/h-atom
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neuro` Loqi: tell xtof I'll b back in Paris August the first, let's meet and see how we can organize an indiewebcamp Paris after everyone's back
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bret vive le indieweb
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neuro` Good night #indiewebcamp, even heroes need some sleep.
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Loqi night night
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bret bye
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musigny neuro`: I hope I could come from Geneva area for a parisian #indiewebcamp : that could be nice to see you again (haven't seen you since the very first bar camps in France !)
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neuro` musigny: that was very very long ago.
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musigny neuro`: and if you come in the area of Annecy we could have an indiweb-wine-meetup with @jihaisse. The first time I've heard about Jean-Seb it was from you, about a project of SnowCamp ...back in 2006 ^^ Now we are kind of neighbors!
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aaronpk wow, this is impressive http://tt-rss.org/redmine/projects/tt-rss/wiki
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aaronpk I wonder what it would take to hack in an mf2 json feed as input
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tantek.com edited /SNSRouter (+79) "stub, dfn, headers, see also" (view diff)
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tantek bret that is great!
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tantek bret, no I didn't see an entry for benwerd / idno on the reply-context page
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bret no ben or someone needs to do that
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bret tantek: what are you referring to? but thanks!
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tantek bret - your reply-context entry
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tantek oh which reply URL is that screenshot for?
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bret thats to the post I am replying to
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bret Ill link to it
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tantek.com edited /reply-context (+187) "/* Bret.io */ describe features of this reply context" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /reply-context (+35) "/* Bret.io */ Linked image to live example" (view diff)
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@Ladygoldiee #BuyTheWayOnItunes Full Eclipse" The Album https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/full-eclipse/id317227879 … … it's BLACK SUN #Follow @BlackSunDMV #HipHop #indiewebcamp
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bret tantek: when you reply to a twitter message, you always include an @[twitter username] of the person you reply to. Is there a reason to do a similar thing in indieweb replies/comments?
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bret in addition to the reply context
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aaronpk I do if I'm addressing them in the reply
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bret but no, if you are replying to an article or something?
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aaronpk I haven't done that yet, but my guess is I would not
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bret when would you reply to a note and not be addressing the person?
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aaronpk apparently never, judging by http://aaronparecki.com/replies
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benibur musigny: i see you're from geneva : i was there this week end, we could have met !
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benibur in cas of an indieweb event in paris or geneva, please inform me ! : ben@cozycloud.cc
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musigny benibur: ping me here or at @gregoire next time you're in the area
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bret.io uploaded /File:Screen_Shot_2013-07-23_at_3.10.29_PM.png "Example of idno reply context's"
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bret.io edited /File:Screen_Shot_2013-07-23_at_3.10.29_PM.png (-2) "Gah, no apostrophe" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /Special:Log/upload () "uploaded a new version of "[[File:Screen Shot 2013-07-23 at 3.10.29 PM.png]]": Removed comment as to not confuse the reply context with another reply." (view diff)
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tantek bret - I do typically start my replies to tweets with @-username because it limits who sees the reply on Twitter to people who follow both of us
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bret.io edited /reply-context (+153) "/* Bret.io */ Added example of idno reply context" (view diff)
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bret tantek: That seems like an intelligent way to filter conversations
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aaronpk poll: launch a separate events.indiewebcamp.com aggregator like news.indiewebcamp.com, or use the same site and make a filter for just events like news.indiewebcamp.com/events?
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bret I would like separate
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aaronpk speaking of polls...
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bret I'm kind of iffy on the voting thing…. as I take place in a poll XD
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bret there are only a few people voting right now. It seems to me chronological order to items is more important at this time
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aaronpk yea, right now they're almost the same order anyway, since older items get less weight per upvote
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aaronpk so polling... I should be able to post a question on my site and collect responses via webmentions
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bret yayaya
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aaronpk I could mark up the question in a way that indicates the valid list of responses, so a reply UI could build up an appropriate set of buttons
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bret but I'm probably just going to say ya to all of your ideas
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aaronpk and then your reply UI would be able to format an h-entry with the appropriate markup so my site could tell which item you voted on
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aaronpk really that's basically me providing you an html form
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aaronpk where the results of the form are published back on your site rather than making a post request to my site
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bret So, my reply UI would parse your post for the reply buttons?
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aaronpk say I just published a simple HTML form in a post, you would just render that form via html
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aaronpk but instead of the action of the form being my site, it would be your own site where it would create a new reply post with the results
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aaronpk so all we would really have to define is a markup for publishing the results of a form in a way that can be parsed with a mf2 parser
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