#indiewebcamp 2013-08-23

2013-08-23 UTC
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/370697184414797824)
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JonathanNeal tantek: gotta link to a "code of conduct" you dig? I think we've discussed issues like this before.
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JonathanNeal Ah, http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films 7 (twitter.com/_/status/370709561919176704)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films 6 (twitter.com/_/status/370709562183413760)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/370712283074535424)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/370712283754004480)
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tantek JonathanNeal - exactly :)
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bret Sweet, I'm getting the go ahead to put the controls and viewport of a scanning electron microscope online using node.js and webRTC
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bret.io edited /video (+73) "/* QA/FAQ */ Answered my question about realtime video. A: WebRTC" (view diff)
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@ReginaPucket RT @gaelynnwoods: Is bigger always better? With regards to #books, of course... Chime in on THE BIG HEAT: http://gaelynnwoods.blogspot.com/2013/08/does-size-matter-sorry-all-you-sex.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/370722400331395072)
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tantek bret - that is supercool
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@benwerd The #indieweb shows up at the #pcloud Community Gathering. @Johannes_Ernst wants to make an accessible home indie server. (twitter.com/_/status/370740892627238914)
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tantek.com edited /Why_web_sign-in (+1295) "But some people do not know what a URL is - actually, they see and use them every day." (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /email (+177) "criticism: Maintenance disinterest" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /email (+88) "/* Criticism */ Bad for identity" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /email (+4) "linky messaging" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /messaging (+3446) "draft a stub" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, barnabywalters, et al - I wrote up what I could from the past few days of IRC discussion on email and messaging. For your review: http://indiewebcamp.com/messaging and http://indiewebcamp.com/email
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tantek.com edited /indieweb-messaging (+16) "see also messaging" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /private_posts (+4) "see also" (view diff)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films (twitter.com/_/status/370754903242977281)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/370755246295109632)
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tantek now to document today's protocol vs. UX discussions...
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rknLA tantek: that sounds interesting. was that in here? i haven't been paying attention the past couple of days.. lots going on at work
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tantek yes it was in here - past few days.
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rknLA cool, guess i have some reading to do
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@chihchun 我們需要一個獨立於 Facebook, Google, Twitter 等等大企業、政府的自由網際網路。 # why - IndieWebCamp http://indiewebcamp.com/why (twitter.com/_/status/370790239096557568)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films (twitter.com/_/status/370815280660115456)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/370818256334245888)
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@egadenne Voyage d'étude de Cherbourg á Brighton du 4 au 10 septembre pour débrider l'internet français. #indieweb #lebateau http://www.kisskissbankbank.com/fr/projects/le-bateau (twitter.com/_/status/370835510752579584)
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@xtof_fr #LeBateau Mission #1 = voyage d'étude #indiewebcamp UK le 2013-09-07 Détails http://www.kisskissbankbank.com/fr/projects/le-bateau Participation et soutiens bienvenus (twitter.com/_/status/370839097947865088)
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@MyDataLabs 1° projet de rentrée pour l'association : traverser la manche pour rejoindre le mouvement #indieweb #ownyourdata http://www.kisskissbankbank.com/le-bateau (twitter.com/_/status/370850912128233472)
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@lentremetteur RT @MyDataLabs: 1° projet de rentrée pour l'association : traverser la manche pour rejoindre le mouvement #indieweb #ownyourdata http://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/370862387228053505)
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@TrsstProject We just love these principles: http://indiewebcamp.com/principles #indieweb #thatsus (twitter.com/_/status/370873048817098752)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films 3 (twitter.com/_/status/370875658068844545)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/370878131533774848)
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Loqi [mention] http://reader.bearfruit.org/2013/08/23/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.limit.ws/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.wpress4.me/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.webinest.com/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://betasitesgalore.net/2013/08/23/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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barnabywalters huh remember manu sporny’s patronising “RDFa is great, microformats are bad” article?
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barnabywalters unless I’m missing something, Manu is actually using microformats on his personal site, not RDFa
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barnabywalters so much for selfdogfooding
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Loqi [mention] http://www.chrisroubis.com.au/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films 8 (twitter.com/_/status/370909681117843456)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/370912948912676865)
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pdurbin Three RDFa Recommendations Published: http://www.w3.org/News/2013.html#entry-9919 (yesterday)
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@LucBizeul RT @xtof_fr: #LeBateau Mission #1 = voyage d'étude #indiewebcamp UK le 2013-09-07 Détails http://www.kisskissbankbank.com/fr/projects/le-bateau Participation et soutiens… (twitter.com/_/status/370915171210113024)
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tommorris ooh, XHTML+RDFa 1.1! I was waiting for th---oh, wait, no, I wasn't.
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pdurbin in other channels it's vi vs. emacs ;)
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barnabywalters XHTML is still a thing?
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barnabywalters huh
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barnabywalters tommorris: any idea what the easiest way to consume dbpedia data is?
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neuro` xhtml 2.0 FTW
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barnabywalters I thought xhtml5 = html5 with more slashes and double quotes
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barnabywalters but prefer calling it xml-compatible html5
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neuro` Weh should use pure XML and trust end users to provide nazi valid markup.
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neuro` Sorry.
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XgF tommorris: The new version of XHTML(1.1)+RDFa1.1 is just folding in errata...
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tommorris ah okay, XgF
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tommorris barnabywalters: yeah, SPARQL
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barnabywalters that’s the easiest? hm, okay
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tommorris barnabywalters: tell me what you need and I'll rustle you up a SPARQL query
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tommorris SPARQL is pretty straightforward
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tommorris Write query, POST to endpoint, get back XML/JSON/whatever
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tommorris you can even get back an HTML document with a <table> ;)
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barnabywalters okay, cool. basically I’m looking for cities with a latitude/longitude within a particular band
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tommorris barnabywalters: just writing you one
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barnabywalters thanks :)
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barnabywalters awesome, golang’s remote package fetching and importing allow you to use your own domain in code but host code on github! nice
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barnabywalters so I could host a package at github.com/barnabywalters/go-mf2 but use "import waterpigs.co.uk/pkg/go-mf2" in my code
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barnabywalters programming languages with indieweb support built in — that’s pretty cool
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tommorris barnabywalters: https://gist.github.com/tommorris/6320399
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tommorris barnabywalters: modify to your heart's content. post to dbpedia sparql endpoint
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barnabywalters tommorris: fantastic, thanks!
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tommorris sample results - http://dbpedia.org/sparql?default-graph-uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdbpedia.org&query=PREFIX+geo%3A+%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2003%2F01%2Fgeo%2Fwgs84_pos%23%3E%0D%0Aselect+distinct+%3Fobj+%3Flat+%3Flong%0D%0Awhere+{%0D%0A%3Fobj+a+%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fdbpedia.org%2Fclass%2Fyago%2FLocations%3E+.%0D%0A%3Fobj+geo%3Alat+%3Flat+.%0D%0A%3Fobj+geo%3Along+%3Flong+.%0D%0AFILTER%28%3Flat+%3E+50%29%0D%0AFILTER%28%3Flat+%3C+52%29%0D%0AFILTER%28%3Flo
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tommorris who knew 'England' was in London
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barnabywalters ^ this is the truth
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XgF Aww, IRC truncated your URL :(
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barnabywalters XgF: paste the gist into http://dbpedia.org/sparql
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Loqi [mention] http://abstractphp.com/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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tommorris yeah, SPARQL is pretty much a case of popping the query in the form, submitting it and then you can use the URL to get it again in the future.
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XgF I'm looking forward to this stuff data landing directly into wikidata in the future. No need for DBpedia to scrape arbritary markup
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tommorris Indeed.
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barnabywalters okay sparql is pretty nice. I’m a little confused about things like http://dbpedia.org/class/yago/CitiesAndTownsInDenmark as types though — isn’t that mixing vocabulary and data?
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tommorris barnabywalters: yes. Yago and Dbpedia are shitty vocabulary wise
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barnabywalters ah, turns out http://umbel.org/umbel/rc/City was what I was looking for
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tommorris I'm wishing SPARQL had the ability to use subclasses.
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tommorris if it's a subclass, Liskov substitutability should apply.
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barnabywalters nods
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barnabywalters in this case, I can always run a query for City and then another for Town or Village or whatever if I don’t get enough results the first time round
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Loqi [mention] http://www.buildmyweb.co/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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coreypein.net edited /2013/UK (+540) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters what’s the process for fixing bad data in dbpedia? e.g. there is this “town” in croatia which apparently has a population of over 1.5 billion
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Loqi [mention] http://www.diancin.com/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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michel_v hello
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barnabywalters greetings michel_v
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michel_v hi barnabywalters
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michel_v I'm looking at indieweb messaging, and thinking it's a perfect candidate for a cms plugin. has a wordpress plugin been done for it yet?
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barnabywalters which version of indieweb messaging? IIRC that term’s been used for a couple of different things
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barnabywalters the protocol outlined here? http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging
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barnabywalters I doubt anyone’s done a wordpress plugin yet so feel free to dive in and give it a go
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michel_v hmm, I was reading about it there: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2011/07/31/1/indieweb-messaging
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michel_v I see it's different now, thanks
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barnabywalters ah yes that is the other one — aaronpk it might be worth updating that blog post to link to the new indieweb-messaging spec
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aaronpk needs to update that page :(
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barnabywalters is too slow
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /indieweb-messaging (+161) "Linked to older spec with same name" (view diff)
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barnabywalters I’d be interested to get the opinion of someone who knows stuff about security of the security-by-obscurity indieweb messaging idea
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barnabywalters especially seeing as oauth-secured resources are effectively the same thing (very long URLs)
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aaronpk heh kinda
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aaronpk access tokens are essentially security by obscurity, but it's acceptable for sufficiently long access tokens
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aaronpk also most of the time access tokens expire which helps them be more obscure
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barnabywalters ah, okay
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barnabywalters how long is “sufficiently” long?
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aaronpk 128 bits is usually considered to be un-guessable
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barnabywalters and would the webmention have to be sent over HTTPS to avoid the URL being sniffed?
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barnabywalters or intercepted or whatever the term is
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aaronpk yeah definitely
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michel_v barnabywalters: very long URLs if you allow using providing the token in the query string
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barnabywalters michel_v: we’re talking about GETting resources more than changing them I think
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michel_v barnabywalters: I never allow that in my APIs because then it ends up in proxy logs, in browser history, etc
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barnabywalters michel_v: what is the alternative? cookies?
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Loqi the alternative is writing a microformats
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barnabywalters lol
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michel_v yes, but you can GET them with an Authorization header
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barnabywalters ah sure
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aaronpk access tokens in query strings is generally a bad idae
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wardn anyone familiar with the NaCl crypto libraries?
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wardn you can use it sorta like ssh for http... generate the pub/priv keys on each end and use your keys to encrypt the transports
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wardn the nice thing is that you have client authentication built in
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wardn sorta like github's ssh key handling
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barnabywalters wardn: client auth built in? how so?
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wardn the client generates their public key, sends it encrypted to the server to be enlisted
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wardn the server verifies it... and accepts it as valid
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wardn from there all communication is encrypted using a shared key generated from a public key/nonce
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@TrsstProject @Upworthy check us out! We're trying to save the web... with the help of a bunch of friends. #indieweb http://www.trsst.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/370963641899577344)
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tantek is Trsstproject another monoculture?
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tantek kickstarter seems to be a monoculture generator
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michel_v give me money and I'll answer
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tantek lol
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tantek wardn - NaCl is proprietary. check out http://www.w3.org/TR/WebCryptoAPI/
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films (twitter.com/_/status/370966404587331585)
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tantek reads logs
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/370968040885993472)
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michel_v tantek: well, it reads "distributed"
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michel_v tantek: what that has meant in practice however, is that there's one implementation going live, everyone uses it, and maybe ten people in the world run their own instances because it's just freakingly hard to get the thing running
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michel_v see status.net or tent
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benwerd Has anyone proposed an IndieWeb session for MozFest? (cc tantek)
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wardn tantek: NaCl is listed as public domain at http://nacl.cr.yp.to/features.html. looking into the webcrypto API now.
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aaronpk michel_v: feel free to add to http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture :)
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tantek wardn - thank you for the correction. I was mistakenly assuming you were referring to Google's proprietary NaCl: https://developers.google.com/native-client/
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wardn tantek: I like that the WebCryptoAPI implementation is javascript based. Makes it easy to integrate with a browser platform. Are you aware of any good examples of implementations?
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tantek wardn - Mozilla is working on implementing WebCryptoAPI - see (and feel free to cc yourself on) https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=842818
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tantek wardn - I just created a page for NaCl(software) on Wikipedia (since Google's NaCl was already there and the public domain crypto library wasn't) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaCl%28software%29
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tantek please feel free to add to / expand etc.
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tantek tommorris - feel free to fix my newbie Wikipedia page creation errors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaCl%28software%29
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@RichWeatherly43 RT @kennhoss: Summer have you sweltering? Check out some great #books on the Independent Author Network - http://www.independentauthornetwork.com/kenneth-hoss.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/370980846444236800)
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@dellasm RT @kennhoss: Summer have you sweltering? Check out some great #books on the Independent Author Network - http://www.independentauthornetwork.com/kenneth-hoss.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/370981228318826496)
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@JohnBetcher RT @kennhoss: Summer have you sweltering? Check out some great #books on the Independent Author Network - http://www.independentauthornetwork.com/kenneth-hoss.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/370981933494185984)
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@don_slaw RT @kennhoss: Summer have you sweltering? Check out some great #books on the Independent Author Network - http://www.independentauthornetwork.com/kenneth-hoss.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/370984198451908608)
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Loqi [mention] http://digitalmofo.com/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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tantek.com created /NaCl (+468) "disambig page since I guessed wrong" (view diff)
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@PeopleReads RT @kennhoss: Summer have you sweltering? Check out some great #books on the Independent Author Network - http://www.independentauthornetwork.com/kenneth-hoss.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/370985779692331008)
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tantek barnabywalters - XHTML is XML valid HTML plus namespace cruft.
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barnabywalters ah, that’s the distinction — thanks
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tantek refers again to http://tantek.com/2010/302/b1/xhtml-dead-long-live-xml-valid-html5
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tantek goes to lunch.
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@Johannes_Ernst RT @benwerd: The #indieweb shows up at the #pcloud Community Gathering. @Johannes_Ernst wants to make an accessible home indie server. (twitter.com/_/status/370986486876762113)
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bret tantek: nice, have not seen that post yet
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bret trust seems kind of monocultury, but its primary mechanism for sharing data is rss it seems, so at least its reusing existing stuff
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bret trsst
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bret It seems worth while to encourage the implementation of uF2 on all of these projects
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barnabywalters bret: the trrst people have shown interest in indiewebcamp, so hopefully we’ll be able to get them to support some of the stuff we built
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bret Still have yet to set up my own pump.io
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bret I spend 2 hours on it the other day, no luck
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bret spent*
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XgF tantek: You wanted NaCl_(Software)
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XgF And, being as there are two NaCls, probably NaCl_(Cryptographic_library)
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XgF wardn: You are aware that TLS has client authentication built in, right?
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XgF Admittedly for client-to-server JavaScript stuff it's not easily accessable...
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XgF Also, you probably want Sodium over NaCl: http://labs.umbrella.com/2013/03/06/announcing-sodium-a-new-cryptographic-library/
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@WilliamPotter68 RT @kennhoss: Summer have you sweltering? Check out some great #books on the Independent Author Network - http://www.independentauthornetwork.com/kenneth-hoss.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/371002350250385408)
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@realtdbauer RT @kennhoss: Summer have you sweltering? Check out some great #books on the Independent Author Network - http://www.independentauthornetwork.com/kenneth-hoss.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/371002761376051200)
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bret Man, are those app spam twitter accounts?
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tantek let's see
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barnabywalters bret: it has “real” in the name, how could it be a spam account? :D
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tantek it might just be people "new" to Twitter with twitterhea
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bret i mean, I understand the need for people to self promote but does that kind of thing even work?
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bret https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK62I-4cuSY
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tantek wardn, this is a better bug to watch for Mozilla Web Crypto API implementation: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865789
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films 2 (twitter.com/_/status/371007618233679872)
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wardn tantek: thanks... saw your request for the parent after I cc'd the first one
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Loqi [mention] http://www.florographics.com/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/371008535955775488)
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tantek.com edited /Previous_IndieWebCamps (+39) "stub IndieWebCamp 2013 with link to main" (view diff)
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neuro` Was wondering: do you guy sometimes publish on silos information that you don't wanna POSSE because you believe they're not worth keeping outside the silo's context?
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tantek neuro` I've posted on G+ complaining about G+
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tantek general category of: post on a silo complaining about that silo. your other friends probably don't care about it, and if the silo disappears then so do your complaints.
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tantek (should that be an FAQ?)
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neuro` I think it should
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neuro` There are many things I published on Twitter I don't realy want to display on my site.
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tantek like what?
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neuro` Maybe I can just avoid displaying them
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neuro` but keep the data anyway
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tantek or you can be like aaronpk & barnabywalters and put them in a /notes subdirectory
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neuro` That's what I already do.
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neuro` I think my problem is that I tweet too much :)
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barnabywalters tantek: huh? all my notes are on the same level. I don’t hide any by default
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tantek barnabywalters - no notes here: http://waterpigs.co.uk/
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barnabywalters I was going to hide replies but I like my in-stream reply contexts too much :)
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barnabywalters tantek: there’s not much of anything there
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tantek barnabywalters - the point is you isolate your recently published streams by post-type
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neuro` I was asking that question because since yesterday, Publify is able to display short statuses in the main blog feed. And I realize many of my tweets are not worth the front page.
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films 3 (twitter.com/_/status/371014378847752192)
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aaronpk neuro`: some silos I only publish on: comments on github issues (although sometimes I put those on my site first), comments on instagram photos and facebook updates
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barnabywalters well, kinda. it’s debatable what “post type” even means, since I use notes for almost everything
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aaronpk also I have my most recent 3 notes (not replies) on my home page
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tantek neuro` I've wanted a similar feature but for checkins. I.e. this checkin is not worthy sending push notification to my friends.
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barnabywalters aaronpk does actually have different stuff under different directories
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tantek just read http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/why-water/ - neat.
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barnabywalters thanks
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neuro` I think I'll start unpublishing every tweets from my blog but 2-3 recent longer statuses I like, but keep the data in the database anyway and rethink my publishing policy.
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tantek carries a flask of water in the city.
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tantek (but still drinks coffee daily)
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neuro` I always have a bottle of water as well.
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/371015058601811968)
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tantek neuro` you could add an option to your publishing flow that records whether a status update is "[x] front-page-worthy"
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tantek keep it in you /notes archives, but only show the "front-page-worthy" updates on your home page
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barnabywalters tantek: I went to a restaurant a while ago and, after queuing for several minutes, was refused water. I left pretty quickly :)
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tantek barnabywalters - hopefully you made a note of that in your checkin post
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barnabywalters I’m actually pretty sure it’s illegal to not serve water
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barnabywalters tantek: no checkin posts back then :)
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barnabywalters as in the past I’ve managed to make train services give me hot water for free
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barnabywalters citing medical reasons
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neuro` tantek: I thought about it too, but this will deeply change the existing, which I don't want. I need to rethink this on a software level.
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tantek the existing?
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neuro` Yes. Adding statuses only took a few LOC because we had a very extensible publishing model. But having that "worth displaying" option will break all our internal logic.
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neuro` Time to sleep, have a nice day.
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tantek good night neuro`
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Loqi don't let the bed bugs bite
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (+1478) "add who / guest list heading since home page links there, add" (view diff)
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wardn when I saw that I mentally substituted "existence" for "the existing", which I think is deeply profound
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tantek as in, what if posting a status update changed your actual status?
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wardn and could that be something that could be changed at a software level
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tantek wardn - much of people consider part of their identity is effectively software. The APIs are just not very well documented.
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wardn tantek: ... or exist at all. But that's the point right? To give them back control of their identity?
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wardn create the APIs
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tantek hopefully with a decent permissions model
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tantek bret: re: http://www.onebigfluke.com/2012/07/focusing-on-positives-why-i-have-my-own.html I did add this section and a bunch of brandump here: http://indiewebcamp.com/why#Focusing_on_the_Positive
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bret aight!
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-350) "remove IndieWebCamp 2013 info, add brief link in see previous line near top" (view diff)
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tantek per discussion here that we should have less event stuff, more indieweb stuff - a step in that direction.
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tantek.com edited /2013 (+215) "add summary of IndieWebCamp 2013 to the top" (view diff)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films 4 (twitter.com/_/status/371026689121611776)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-109) "shorten description, simplify other copy" (view diff)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/371028741415522304)
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bret hrrmmmmm… thinking about dropping out of physics and doing pcx code school
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bret pdx*
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tantek would appreciate review/feedback on main page updates per earlier simplification / event-reduction requests.
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bret Is there a way to draft changes?
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tantek sure on your /User:…/Main_Page
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bret oh duh
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bret cool
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tantek want to share ideas / principles of what the main page should do / be different(ly)?
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bret It is still kinda a wall of words
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bret Lemmi try some things
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-166) "/* IndieWebCamp */ found another para to cut" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+4) "move TOC down a bit" (view diff)
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tantek bret - walls of words are best improved by simplifying copy
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tantek I've taken a pass at doing so from the top to just before the "How" heading.
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bret.io created /User:Bret.io/Main_Page (+96) "Created page with "== What is the IndieWeb? == == What is IndieWebCamp? == == Want to learn more? == First steps:"" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /User:Bret.io/Main_Page (+476) "/* What is IndieWebCamp? */" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /User:Bret.io/Main_Page (+362) "/* What is the IndieWeb? */" (view diff)
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bret ack… sorry
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tantek bret - ironically, I think the in-person (regular) events distinguish this community from every other similar attempt previously or since.
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bret is there any other way? :p
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tantek it's about the people more than the protocols. and it's about real people in-person more than any online forum.
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tantek bret - every other similar effort (e.g. monocultures) is doing purely online only.
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bret.io edited /User:Bret.io/Main_Page (+874) (view diff)
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tantek possible exceptions: WordPress has regular WordCamps in various cities, Drupal has regular DrupalCons and DrupalCamps.
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bret Well, layout wise this is all I can do right now: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Bret.io/Main_Page
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tantek I think the guides need fixing
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bret not done, have to go back to work unfortunately :(
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tantek more than fixing, redoing
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bret yea me too
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tantek for anyone just showing up, the guides don't make much sense as a set, nor the order presented.
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bret We should have some really simple steps people can take
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bret and make those super clear
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tantek bret - that's what Getting Started is
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Loqi yea
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tantek thanks Loqi :)
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Loqi you're welcome
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bret I'm thinking something that can fit right onto the main page
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bret ill think on it some more
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tantek ah, that's a good idea. looking forward to what you come up with.
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tantek read up on IndieMark as well
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/indiemark
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bret I read through some early iterations of that page
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bret need to revisit it
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tantek I've continued to iteratively improve it
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tantek I have more thoughts on how to continue doing so
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tantek Level 0 and Level 1 are pretty solid. Working on solidifying Level 2+
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bret what level is your site at? :)
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tantek well I'm definitely good with all the Level 0 requirements
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (-64) "/* Level 1 */ drop PuSH from summary since it's now optional" (view diff)
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bret i need to add a search field
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tantek for Level 1, y es
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bret no posse, but I really should for github issues
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tantek I've almost got Level 1 - I need to add web actions for all my posts (right now only my articles have a post/tweet button)
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tantek and as part of adding that, I have to document the specifics of how and why to do so on the /webactions wiki page, so that others can more easily do so as well.
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bret There still seems to be some uneasiness with the web action solution.. who was I talking to about that?
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tantek I'm kind of forcing myself to document the steps I'm personally taking on Falcon, on the IndieWebCamp wiki, as I take them, to enable others to reimplement quicker than I did.
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bret i think aaronpk still was sort of on the fence about some things
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tantek which part of the solution?
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bret he was talking about his preference for bookmarklets
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tantek web action <action> tags aren't for you - they're for other indieweb users to click / use with their own browser (extensions)
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aaronpk tantek: yeah I'm on the fence about whether that's even a good idea
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bret Right, after the osfw3c, It seems like in order to get the UX flow that silos have, we have to do something like web actions, be depending on others is never good as having a solution that works everywhere
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aaronpk i have bookmarklets in my bookmark toolbar, and now I can use them to reply to *any* URL even if the page has no concept of being replied to
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tantek aaronpk - the reason it's a good idea is it helps your site and your permalinks become a better (more complete) replacement for *other* users who are used to having all those buttons on say Tweet permalinks.
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tantek a lot of the design/ux we do on the indieweb is driven by doing the right thing for our friends to read and use our content
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tantek e.g. that's the whole point of POSSE
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tantek web action buttons are there for a similar reason
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tantek let me see if I can find the Zeldman tweet on this from years ago
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bret it seems like it will still have to depend on having a solution that works no matter what, like a bookmarklet.
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tantek bret - the solution that works "no matter what" is having a fallback to silo-specific-action-buttons
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tantek for whatever silo you posse to
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tantek and if there is no such silo, then yeah, maybe the fallback is nothing?
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bret hrmm
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tantek found it: https://twitter.com/zeldman/status/24224682530050048
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@zeldman .@glenda @kevinmarks @t If I want to reply to t's tweet, I can't do it from his site. I have to back-button back to Twitter. Lotta clicks.
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tantek so that's the key use case
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tantek one of my friends who reads me from Twitter happens to click through on the permashortlink to my post, reads the full post on my site, then wants to reply, and ...
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tantek should be able to click "reply" right there on my site, rather than clicking back to go to Twitter and replying there.
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aaronpk that makes sense. but how does having the <action> tag help in that case?
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aaronpk seems like he needs a twitter button in order for that to work
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tantek aaronpk - other way around
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bret there was some crossover with the social api and action tags right? I'll go search around for it
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tantek I'll have Twitter reply button <a href>
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tantek and then *because that is there*, I'll wrap that Twitter-specific <a href> in a generic <action>
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tantek which then enables things like Barnaby
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tantek Walters's web action hero toolbelt
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tantek clearly needs to document this on the "Why" section of Web Actions
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tantek aaronpk - e.g. you already have a "Retweet" button on your notes, like http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/08/14/1/gmail
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tantek and a FB Like button
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tantek you should wrap each of those individually with the respective <action do="repost" with="http://..."> and <action do="props" with="http://...">
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Loqi I agree
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tantek thanks again Loqi :)
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Loqi you're welcome
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tantek that's all you have to do to make webactions work on your site
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bret aaronpk: Loqi agrees, you have no choice now
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Loqi yeah!
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aaronpk hmmmm
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aaronpk that seems reasonable
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tantek Otherwise, why do you have Retweet and Like buttons on your posts?
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tantek and once you're convinced (for any reason) to have silo-specific buttons on your posts, you should definitely wrap them in indieweb-generic <action> tags.
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tantek to be clear - I'm not advocating for adding any more silo-specific buttons than you already have for whatever reasons you decided.
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tantek I'm saying that if you have such buttons, you should wrap them in generic <action> tags.
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aaronpk that is reasonable
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aaronpk what if you do not yet have silo buttons?
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tantek ok if we all end up with different sets of action tags / silo buttons inside - based on personal preferences for UI/UX and whatever silos we choose to POSSE to (already a personal preference)
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@rknLA #indieweb / #indieauth idea: automate forgot password / enter new password flow to support “log in with email address” (twitter.com/_/status/371040935150252032)
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tantek aaronpk - we should figure out what a minimal recommended silo button set is, for each silo that you choose to POSSE to.
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tantek the whole point to start with is to support readers who are coming *from* the silos you've POSSE'd to.
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tantek make them feel at home (even more comfortable) on your own site, than they do on the silo they came from.
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bret I block silo buttons with adblock, even when I was using more silos
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bret :p
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bret tracking beacons I tell you!
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aaronpk could show the appropriate silo button based on the http referer :)
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bret trixy hobbits
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tantek bret - for well designed silo buttons (e.g. Twitter), you can block *just* the javascript, and then the <a href> silo button links still work, without any tracking unless someone chooses to click the link
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tantek aaronpk - YES! "show the appropriate silo button based on the http referer"
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tantek (genius approach to mitigating some of the NASCAR / button-slut problem)
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aaronpk always render the <action> button for user agents that support it, and *add* a silo button if the visitor came in from a silo
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josephg I've setup chrome to block 3rd party cookies
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josephg - which I'm quite happy with, even though it breaks a disappointing number of sites
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bret aaronpk: on a side note, do you know anything about the portland code school?
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bret really josephg? I have not noticed that much breakage from that
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aaronpk bret: what is portland code school?
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bret aaronpk: http://www.portlandcodeschool.com
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bret i guess no :)
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tantek aaronpk - that conditional showing of silo buttons could even be done in clientside javascript.
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aaronpk oh yeah true!
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tantek because non-JS useragents certainly do not care about silo buttons
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bret XC
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bret XD *
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@TrsstProject @btoole Saw you backed both us and @mailpile = double awesome! @kickstarter #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/371047849871429632)
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tantek.com edited /webactions-verbs-research (+73) "/* Silo Verb Usage */ subheads for silos, sort alphabetically, put verbs into lists for easier scanning" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /webactions-verbs-brainstorming (+220) "/* Verb Brainstorming */ not research/docs, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /webactions-verbs-research (+70) "see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /webactions (+710) "/* Brainstorming */ subheads, action fallbacks, conditional fallbacks, clientside conditionals" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /webactions (+269) "/* conditional fallbacks */ the point - improve UX for readers coming from silos you've POSSE'd to." (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /webactions (+4) "/* action do verbs */ [[ ]]" (view diff)
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@JChaseNovelist RT @kennhoss: Summer have you sweltering? Check out some great #books on the Independent Author Network - http://www.independentauthornetwork.com/kenneth-hoss.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/371056494143221760)
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tantek.com edited /webactions (+2080) "/* Brainstorming */ which silo buttons, minimum silo buttons, silo button variance, more reasons why, goals" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - for your review - summarized points from above webactions discussion here: http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#Brainstorming
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