#indiewebcamp 2013-09-25

2013-09-25 UTC
fmarier, singpolyma, tilgovi, caseorganic, bnvk, josephboyle, donpdonp_, donpdonp, barneybook and Anaqreon joined the channel
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Anaqreon I spent a decent amount of time on the indiewebcamp website and I admit I am still not sure what indie web actually is.
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Anaqreon Is it a set of web programming conventions that allow disparate websites to interact by simply sharing links the old fashioned way?
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bret awww, I missed Anaqreon
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bret !tell Anaqreon Hello and welcome! Stick around a little longer next time and we can help clear that up :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@aseemk @gasi I was indeed missing something: IndieAuth then asks you to auth with FB/Tw/G/etc. (Doesn't say that clearly.) Interesting… (twitter.com/_/status/382714803124314112)
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@stefek99 First post on svbtle: http://mstefanow.svbtle.com/command-control?utm_content=bufferb5af1&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer #CommandControl #IndieWebCamp (thank you) (twitter.com/_/status/382776282054160384)
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Jihaisse barnabywalters & cweiske : I've just updated https://github.com/jihaisse/indieAuth-links
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Jihaisse thanks
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Jihaisse pfefferle: I've written a wordpress extension that add link tags for indieAuth : https://github.com/jihaisse/indieAuth-links
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barnabywalters Jihaisse: looking good!
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pfefferle nice!
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Jihaisse thanks
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Jihaisse try it if you can ;)
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Jihaisse pfefferle: if you can make a code review...
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pfefferle Jihaisse sure, will have a look at your code if i have a bit spare time
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Jihaisse thanks !
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pfefferle jihaisse :)
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pfefferle btw. i hacked a little workflow script to check/send webmentions via alfred.app if someone is interested: https://github.com/pfefferle/alfred-webmention-workflow
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pfefferle i used aaronpks webmention-icon… i hope that's ok...
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ShaneHudson pfefferle: Hah that's awesome, nice one
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barnabywalters pfefferle: great
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pfefferle you type in the target and the source, it searches the webmention-endpoint and fires a hash-command
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pfefferle i mean bash-command
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pfefferle let me know if you have some more ideas
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neuro` pfefferle: awesome
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neuro` Alfred > *
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pfefferle ???
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neuro` I love Alfredapp
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pfefferle :)
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@OWWRGMN RT @adactio: @mtheoryx @bdielman @bradcolbow The Indieweb principles are a good place to start: http://indiewebcamp.com/principles See also: http://t.… (twitter.com/_/status/382853138774245376)
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@gnuside @BrunHoHoHo sans support hardware contrôlable pour nos données personnelles les donnes ne nous appartiendront plus #indieweb #lbplive (twitter.com/_/status/382854386047016960)
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cweiske about webmention links - does my client need to support both rels?
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pfefferle if you want to support both specs...
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ShaneHudson I still think the new spec should be updated to use a quick regex to check for both
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cweiske do you know of webmention implementations that still use the webmention URL as relation?
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pfefferle the wordpress plugin ;)
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pfefferle i have to work on that really soon!
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@benwerd How #xoxofest and #indiewebcamp saved me, in a way. http://werd.io/entry/5243114abed7de2970c0b2b7/how-xoxofest-and-indiewebcamp-saved-me-in-a-way (twitter.com/_/status/382906720294428673)
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/entry/5243114abed7de2970c0b2b7/how-xoxofest-and-indiewebcamp-saved-me-in-a-way linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (pingback)
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@wanszezit How #xoxofest and #indiewebcamp saved me, in a way.: How #xoxofest and #indiewebcamp saved me, in a way. For ... http://werd.io/entry/5243114abed7de2970c0b2b7/how-xoxofest-and-indiewebcamp-saved-me-in-a-way (twitter.com/_/status/382908478689255426)
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@TraskInsight How #xoxofest and #indiewebcamp saved me, in a way. http://werd.io/entry/5243114abed7de2970c0b2b7/how-xoxofest-and-indiewebcamp-saved-me-in-a-way?utm_source=Stephen+Trask,+MT&utm_medium=twitter #social (twitter.com/_/status/382908481142943744)
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@chatterba_se How #xoxofest and #indiewebcamp saved me, in a way.: How #xoxofest and #indiewebcamp saved me, in a way. For ... http://werd.io/entry/5243114abed7de2970c0b2b7/how-xoxofest-and-indiewebcamp-saved-me-in-a-way?utm_content=Social+media,+networking+platform&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/382910046750773248)
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@knowledgeba_se How #xoxofest and #indiewebcamp saved me, in a way.: How #xoxofest and #indiewebcamp saved me, in a way. For ... http://werd.io/entry/5243114abed7de2970c0b2b7/how-xoxofest-and-indiewebcamp-saved-me-in-a-way?utm_content=Social+media,+networking+platform&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/382910048529178624)
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tantek !tell benwerd nice article. very human. thank you for sharing.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 12 minutes ago: nice article. very human. thank you for sharing.
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@veganstraightedge RT @benwerd: How #xoxofest and #indiewebcamp saved me, in a way. http://werd.io/entry/5243114abed7de2970c0b2b7/how-xoxofest-and-indiewebcamp-saved-me-in-a-way (twitter.com/_/status/382913653164371968)
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benwerd Oh, hey, that's kind. Thank you :)
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benwerd And also, good morning, channel. Long time no see.
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barnabywalters afternoon benwerd
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tantek what Frank said is true - "independence is lonely"
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tantek I had to skim his post ( http://frankchimero.com/blog/2013/09/the-inferno-of-independence/ ) but it still hurt to read it.
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benwerd barnabywalters: mafternoon :)
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benwerd Yes. It was an amazing piece of writing.
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tantek as we continue evolving how indieweb comments work and the inevitable filtering/blocking we'll have to add, it's worth consider the issues this article points out: http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-09/why-were-shutting-our-comments
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tantek makes me wonder if perhaps a science quiz based captcha would work for improving comments
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_6a68 tantek: "in your own words, state the first law of thermodynamics" ?
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tantek _6a68 I'd especially pick "pop" scientific subjects where there's the most political denial going on
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tantek "what term is used for the process by which biological organisms have developed and diversified from earlier forms?"
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_6a68 tantek: "approximately how old is the earth"
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tantek _6a68: "is the earth hundreds, thousands, millions, billions, or trillions of years old?"
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_6a68 lol
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tantek :D
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_6a68 tantek: i like the unsolvable questions better
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tantek that's for the comment box itself ;)
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_6a68 tantek: "provide a closed-form solution to the traveling salesman problem"
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tantek _6a68: we can call those the "phdaptcha"
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_6a68 tantek: haha, perfect
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Loqi awesome
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_6a68 tantek: it's an advanced, cruel form of nerd sniping
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squeakytoy clears his throat as a preparation for a public announcement *ahum*
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squeakytoy Hey all. I have decided to do a serious attempt on creating a new kind of open social network. The road will be long and filled with challenges, but I believe in this idea and think its cool so I am going for it. Right now its just on a "proof of concept" version, so not even 1.0.
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squeakytoy Everyone and anyone can contribute, and if you are interested to learn more, please visit squiso.com or http://open.squiso.com/community, or chat with me here! I would appreciate to get feedback from all my fellow #indiewebcamp nerds :-)
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aaronpk squeakytoy: cool, do you have anything running on your domain yet?
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squeakytoy yes, at squiso.com, I have done a rough "proof of concept" version which I have been showing around
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aaronpk what is your personal domain?
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squeakytoy personal?
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_6a68 squeakytoy: i find the proof of concept version a little confusing, do you have a single page that explains the idea/use cases?
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aaronpk yes, your own domain name. you should add it to here! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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_6a68 squeakytoy: it seems cool, i just feel like i'm not getting it
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_6a68 :-)
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squeakytoy _6a68, not yet. I have a personal youtube clip, but thats embarrising to reveal :-) But I should really create a manifesto, writing down how it works and why :-)
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_6a68 squeakytoy: yeah! a single page overview would be fantastic
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_6a68 squeakytoy: is the current site open sourced yet?
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squeakytoy nothing can really be open sourced
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_6a68 o rly
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squeakytoy its an "open social network" and not really "open source
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_6a68 ahh, i see
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squeakytoy Its so open, there isn't any one solution
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squeakytoy :P
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_6a68 no worries, just wanted to poke around a bit :-)
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squeakytoy squiso.com should work
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_6a68 i found the spec though, that is something to look at
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squeakytoy i have a really a lot of stuff to do
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squeakytoy but I just need to keep working and making things great
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aaronpk squeakytoy: my site is aaronparecki.com, what is your site?
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Loqi your site is blog
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aaronpk and more importantly, are you running or do you plan to run squiso.com on your own site?
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squeakytoy aaronpk, my site is christoffer.me, but - not sure Loqi said that concerning me, its basically a blog
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squeakytoy aaronpk, squiso is the project
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aaronpk ok, makes sense, and you're going to run squiso on christoffer.me soon?
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ShaneHudson_ I've decided to start promoting bucket lists. I've realised that quite often we manage to complete something on our list by talking to other people. So it is a good way to promote things that we want to do, and to help each other :)
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squeakytoy aaronpk, thats the plan, to use a personal squiso account, on my own website
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aaronpk ShaneHudson_: yeah! it's a good idea. kind of like the "itching" sections on our user pages!
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ShaneHudson_ So if you have one (if not write one) could you submit to http://www.shanehudson.net/sharing-bucket-lists/ please? Thanks :)
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aaronpk squeakytoy: cool. would love to see when you have something running on your site!
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ShaneHudson_ aaronpk: Yeah, I forgot about those :)
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aaronpk squeakytoy: also have you been following the developments on h-entry and webmention here?
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squeakytoy I am very new here
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squeakytoy :)
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aaronpk welcome!
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squeakytoy i know that indiewebcamp isn't really about this kind of "open social network", but we are all here to try and change the world, right? ;)
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aaronpk well technically we're all building an open social network, it's just that we're all building separate implementations of it on our own personal sites, and they're all talking to each other!
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squeakytoy Yea, and thats.. not really my idea :-)
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squeakytoy so maybe I am in the wrong place
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squeakytoy My idea isn't about having your own site. My idea is about you having a file on the internet, hosted by.. well.. you personall, or dropbox, or a third party site
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vrypan.net edited /IRC_People (+47) "added irc user "vrypan"" (view diff)
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benwerd squeakytoy: have you considered allowing that file to be an HTML file, with the data embedded using microformats?
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benwerd that would align you very closely to what we've all been working on
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benwerd (rather than JSONP)
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squeakytoy No sorry, there is a huuuge technical benefit using JSONP
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squeakytoy We need to find another bridge :-)
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squeakytoy squiso, the service provider could add microformats tho
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benwerd looking at your specs, your data formats align almost exactly with, eg, activitystreams, but also h-entry
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benwerd both of which are being actively used, and therefore have a bunch of tools & libraries ready to just be picked up
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benwerd lazy developers like me like lots of community supported libraries ;)
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aaronpk squeakytoy: and keep in mind h-entry has a canonical json representation. for example, one of my posts (http://aaron.pk/n4S23) looks like http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Fnotes%2F2013%2F09%2F14%2F3%2Findieauth-openid in JSON
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squeakytoy cool
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aaronpk also whoa, benwerd and benward are here at the same time!! hi guys!
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benwerd vowel fight!!
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_6a68 squeakytoy: it seems funny to build a decentralized system around JSONP which has no security protections, you're just trusting arbitrary javascript?
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squeakytoy _6a68, it depends on what is it you want to protect?
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tantek squeakytoy - you may want to consider that JSON/JSONP is merely the API data flavor of the month/year (was XML before that, and CSV before that). That's why we're building on HTML first, and JSON second.
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tantek +1 on aaronpk and benwerd's suggestions to just use HTML + h-entry to start with, that way your "data" will even have a chance of looking good on the web :)
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_6a68 squeakytoy: JSONP runs arbitrary code on the page. in a decentralized system, you'd be loading and running scripts from *anywhere*
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benwerd human eyes as an API client.
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benwerd which sounded way creepier than I intended.
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squeakytoy thinks
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_6a68 benwerd: lol, that's a great tshirt
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squeakytoy tantek, is it possible somehow to mine a HTML page cross domain?
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_6a68 squeakytoy: if you load random scripts inside the page, then those scripts have access to everything, like cookies and all the DOM and data in the page.
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_6a68 shrugs
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tantek squeakytoy - with iframe + CORS, yes.
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_6a68 CORS / XDomainRequest might be something to check out
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squeakytoy what does CORS mean?
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tantek in fact, barnabywalters (not here at the moment) is building cross-site comment posting (like a super webaction) via iframe+CORS
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_6a68 http://enable-cors.org/
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squeakytoy oh Cross-origin resource sharing (CORS)
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squeakytoy hah, then lets send the data as css ;)
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vrypan Is anyone aware of a python library/tool I can use to send pingbacks? (not webmentions)
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aaronpk vrypan: have you searched the standard python pagkage libraries?
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benwerd there's quite a few there, as aaronpk says, and also one on github: https://github.com/tantalor/pblib
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vrypan aaronpk, benwerd thanks.
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vrypan aaronpk, does "http://webmention.io/username/xmlrpc accept pingbacks? I've been trying to get some, with no luck. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.
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aaronpk vrypan: oh yeah saw your email, haven't had a chance to respond yet
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aaronpk it could be that the pingback clients aren't recognizing it
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aaronpk and yes that's the correct endpoint for pingback
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vrypan OK. Let me know if you have more details pls. I'm close to implementing sending and receiving webmentions but I'd like to be able to speak with the rest of the world too (wordpress, etc), if I start doing this. :-)
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aaronpk yeah! i accept pingbacks on my site that way too
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aaronpk are you implementing your own webmention handler? or collecting them on webmention.io too?
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vrypan It's a static blog. So I poll webmention.io every now and then to see if there are new webmentions.
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vrypan I poll = my desktop machine.
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aaronpk cool
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vrypan If I find one, I re-render the target post to include the webmention, and upload it again.
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aaronpk vrypan: my guess is webmention.io didn't register the link because this test post is private!
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aaronpk "http://vrypan.wordpress.com/ is marked private by its owner. If you were invited to view this site, please log in below."
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vrypan OMG :-(
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vrypan How embarrassing.
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk took me way too long to figure that out :)
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vrypan OK, webmention.io works fine now. (Obviously, it also worked fine before, too.)
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barnabywalters !tell tantek,_6a68 Re: science captchas, for me it’d have to be this question: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_water_is_dissovled_in_water_what_is_the_water
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@recifs webmention tests | http://blog.vrypan.net http://seenthis.net/index.php?action=seenli&me=3u1g (twitter.com/_/status/382957072037728256)
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squeakytoy anyone here played around with CORS?
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Loqi tantek: barnabywalters left you a message 2 hours, 7 minutes ago: Re: science captchas, for me it’d have to be this question: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_water_is_dissovled_in_water_what_is_the_water
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tantek barnabywalters: Syntax error: unrecognized token "dissovled". Parsing halted.
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tantek in all seriousness, we're going to have to come up with some way to challenge-response webmentions at some point (when they succeed, and/or there's an easy wordpress plugin that spammers start installing)
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tantek re: https://twitter.com/t/status/383002964140785664
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@t Popular Science shuts off comments:
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@erinjo This post from @benwerd is similarly appropriate to many of the things discussed at #dareconf the last two days. http://werd.io/entry/5243114abed7de2970c0b2b7/how-xoxofest-and-indiewebcamp-saved-me-in-a-way?utm_content=bufferb2136&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer (twitter.com/_/status/383002647378157569)
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tantek any other indieweb folks going to tonight's Personal Clouds Community Gathering? http://indiewebcamp.com/events#Upcoming
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pdurbin I think I'm heading to Treasure Island: http://www.oracle.com/openworld/appreciation-event/index.html
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tantek.com edited /Events (+129) "/* Upcoming */ location details for tonight" (view diff)
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tantek pdurbin - that's quite ironic. Oracle Cloud vs. Personal Clouds.
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pdurbin heh
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk tantek: I think it would be worth documenting the problem better before we start charging ahead with it. the anti-spam/noise reduction/whatever thing can get crazy very quickly
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aaronpk re: challenge-response webmentions
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tantek aaronpk - the problem is the current problem with pingbacks
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tantek the simplification that webmention makes over pingback does not alter the nature of the existing problem
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aaronpk there are multiple dimensions to that problem
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tantek so let's start with the apparent biggest one - pingback spam
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aaronpk defined as?
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tantek spammers install wordpress, then simply plagiarize others' blogposts with links and send pingbacks to all the links
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tantek we've seen it happen here in the channel when spammers plagiarized the WIRED article to their own WordPress blogs and we started to see pingback spam from them
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tantek (sadly the WIRED article itself didn't send pingbacks)
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tantek there are spamblogs that simply plagiarize popular tech publications (WIRED, TechCrunch, etc.) and then send pingbacks to all the links therein
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aaronpk ok, that's a good first category
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tantek this is an existing problem right now
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tantek and it's a problem that's already affective us because the spambacks show up here in the channel via Loqi
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aaronpk that's a good place to start then
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tantek s/affective/affecting
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Loqi tantek meant to say: and it's a problem that's already affecting us because the spambacks show up here in the channel via Loqi
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aaronpk i think there are other types of pingback spam that exist. can't find a URL off the top of my head to demonstrate.
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aaronpk so this is a good first problem that is now well documented and well defined
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tantek working on the documenting part
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aaronpk but I think we should give it a specific name rather than refer to it as "pingback spam" so we can avoid trying to solve too many things in one go
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tantek on it
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aaronpk great
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tantek_ darn sudden sleep on laptop and when I plugged it back in it restarted :(
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tantek at least FF saved my textarea edit in progress!
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tantek (seriously that's one of the best feature ever in a web browser)
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tantek (auto-save textareas)
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tantek.com created /WIRED (+73) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /reblog (+20) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Wired_-_Meet_the_Hackers_Who_Want_to_Jailbreak_the_Internet (-10) "drop clear as it just makes a big blank spot" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /pingback (+872) "add problems section, spam subsection, specific spam problem of spam blog plagiarisms" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk: http://indiewebcamp.com/pingback#spam_blog_plagiarisms
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aaronpk perfect
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tantek.com edited /Events (+1) "/* Upcoming */ ," (view diff)
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tantek weird. netsplit?
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aaronpk shrugs, I turned off join/part messages
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