#indiewebcamp 2013-11-15

2013-11-15 UTC
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bret jekyll does future posts, but its a simple date sort, nothing more
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bret you can prevent future posts from rendering too
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bret not sure if thats wiki worthy though
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bret also, in flat file applications, are you litterally reading a post file everytime someone requests to look at it?
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bret or do you process those files into ram or something?
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aaronpk p3k processes the flat file and caches it in RAM. not the whole HTML page, just the HTML after building the page's content. (header/sidebar/footer stuff is not cached along with the page)
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tantek hmmm
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tantek hmmm
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tantek ?
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tantek flakey network + log caching = am I speaking to myself or not
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tantek bret - I think it's wiki worthy
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tantek so does that mean that jekyll renders future posts by default? instead of not showing them before their time by default?
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tantek that seems wrong
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tantek bret - in answer to your question, Falcon is literally reading a post file every time someone requests to look at it. Assuming "typical" OS file caching that keeps commonly read files in memory, this is not a problem. See http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Storage_format for details
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tantek *posts* file - for that bim
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bret tantek: sorry had to move locations for a bit
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tantek np
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tantek I did too earlier
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bret jekyl just renders static pages. It can render future posts, or it can ignore them. default is ignore
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bret plus personal sites tend to be fairly low traffic, at least mine is
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bret reading #storage_format now
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tantek hmm - now I have think about how to write good time code in CASSIS (date stuff is taken care of pretty well)
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tantek and this is where I consider regretting not storing my datetimes in UTC
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pdurbin tantek: having issues?
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tantek well I store(d) my datetimes in the more easily verifiable *human* local time
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tantek but basically stuck to Pacific Time since no matter where I travel I keep track of that personally
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tantek so now I just need to write code to convert that (reliably) to UTC which will be - interesting (given DST etc.)
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tantek it's an interesting design challenge. but I think the better option is to keep the data as easily human verifiable as possible.
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tantek which means not UTC
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pdurbin not epoch seconds? ;)
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tantek nah - harder to debug
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tantek writing code for easier debugging, even if it means more code
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tantek knowing that more time is spent debugging in general
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KevinMarks_ ooh thanks tantek, I need those functions for noterlive.
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KevinMarks_ !tell tantek thanks for the twitter length functions. Noterlive needs them
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi pfefferle: tantek left you a message 10 hours, 22 minutes ago: do you know Eric? https://twitter.com/ericnakagawa/status/370604732689027072 perhaps he can help with the wordpress conundrums discussed earlier (re: core vs themes etc.)
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Loqi tantek: KevinMarks_ left you a message 2 hours, 22 minutes ago: thanks for the twitter length functions. Noterlive needs them
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Jihaisse Hello
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tantek KevinMarks_ - glad you can use them! :)
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tantek hello
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pfefferle tantek no, doesn't know eric, is he following this chat?
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tantek pfefferle not that I know of - he just asked on Twitter
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pfefferle tantek ok... will ask him to join the wiki, he can perhaps help me writing a page about theming
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tantek that would be great!
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tantek and I just got posting to the future working :)
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tantek I can write posts, post-date their published date, and they don't show up on my home page until their datetime passes.
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tantek cc: aaronpk, bret
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tommorris tantek: http://tommorris.org/posts/8642 :)
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Jihaisse tommorris: did that worked ?
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tantek tommorris :)
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tommorris Jihaisse: have to wait a few days to find out. Postal system and all.
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Jihaisse okay
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tantek tommorris: http://tantek.com/2013/319/t1/falcon-future-posting-working
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tantek and with that I'm off to bed
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tommorris tantek: cool. will look shortly
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tantek it's just a description of it. nothing fancy
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tantek just got the code flow to properly handle dt-published values that are in the future
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tantek it's also good foundational code for "future" posts like events and travel plans
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KevinMarks_ tantek did you make a future post?
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KevinMarks_ my liking for making things in node goes down with each deployment wait on heroku. Thinking that this isomophic javascript thing isn't worth the setup
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pdurbin KevinMarks_: back to PHP? ;)
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@gericci Finally set and checked my IndieAuth https://indieauth.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/401347965320581120)
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@SwissHealthBank MT @SwissGator: Good morning! Day 2 at #DHC13 - looking fwd to hearing more innov. ways to improve #healthcare #SwissHealthbank #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/401348179817684992)
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barnabywalters greetings indiewebcamp-vis! use /nick yourname to set your username
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barnabywalters (or not)
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@STCMilwaukee RT @cassie917: Successfully facilitated over 350 data chats w. scholars at Carver today! #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/401365702944497664)
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@KoleFCKnueppel RT @cassie917: Successfully facilitated over 350 data chats w. scholars at Carver today! #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/401385181581299712)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: do you strip the protocol off URLs when saving into your mention archive?
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aaronpk I strip off the protocol when building the path on disk to save the parsed data, but I still store the full URL of mentions
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tantek that makes sense
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barnabywalters okay — and when an update comes, do you overwrite the original (presumably the history is stored in git)?
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tantek is this something to capture as part of indiearchive?
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aaronpk yes
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aaronpk (to barnaby)
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieArchive
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barnabywalters I was just looking at http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieArchive and realised that urls with EPD/SSS/https://domain.com aren’t filesystem-friendly
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barnabywalters due to the need for a folder with an empty name
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tantek EPD/SSS?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: sounds good. For my use cases I want to be able to easily list and jump between different copies of archived URLs, so I’m making the path into the folder, and then storing EPDSSS.html under that
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aaronpk don't double slashes in URLs and filesystem just get collapsed into a single slash automatically?
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barnabywalters tantek: epoch days/seconds in that day
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barnabywalters aaronpk: if they do, mkdir() in php doesn’t know about it
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aaronpk hah!
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aaronpk must be a browser and unix tool thing then, not a filesystem thing
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barnabywalters this way I can always easily get the latest version of a mention, but list previous versions
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tantek barnabywalters do you mean paths?
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tantek or are you talking about archiving archives?
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tantek I'm a little unclear on what scenario your having problems with.
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barnabywalters tantek: referring to the double-slash thing, or the listing-previous-versions thing?
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tantek this, what does this mean? (i.e. explain the use case that causes this problem) "urls with EPD/SSS/https://domain.com aren’t filesystem-friendly"
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aaronpk I think he's talking about storing the arcives as files on disk with the same folder structure as the URL
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aaronpk so the path on disk would be /var/www/EPD/SSS/ href="https://domain.com/etc/etc" target="_blank">https://domain.com/etc/etc
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barnabywalters I didn’t know that double slashes were collapsed into single ones, so that case could be dealt with by merely replacing https?:// with https?:/
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barnabywalters if apache/x other server handles slash collapsing
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aaronpk barnabywalters: I don't know what exactly is doing that, but if you type cd /var//www you'll get to the right place
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tantek ah ok!
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tantek btw - TimBL has since said that had he known better, he would have omitted the "//"
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tantek so we can just do that
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tantek after the scheme
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barnabywalters the colon could be left out unless there’s an explicit port, too
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barnabywalters no, forget that
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tantek no it can't since "httpsaaronparecki.com" is a valid domain
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tantek :P
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barnabywalters I’m getting my colons mixed upt
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aaronpk is "https:" a valid folder name?
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barnabywalters colons should be fine, except on weird OSes which use : as the dir separator
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barnabywalters yep, they work
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tantek aaronpk - there's the general problem of URL-safe characters being maybe a superset of filename path-safe characters
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XgF aaronpk: Per POSIX, double slash can be collapsed everywhere*except* at the start of a path. // and / may point at different locations
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tantek so if you're putting a URL in your filesystem, you need to handle that general problem
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tantek rather than case by case dealing with ":" etc.
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barnabywalters and then what happens when the URL has a bunch of .. in
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aaronpk XgF: cool. wonder why PHP doesn't know about it?
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XgF aaronpk, barnabywalters: https: is a valid path everywhere but Windows?
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XgF aaronpk: Dunno. Because PHP is an epic pile of fail? :-)
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aaronpk (he says, to a room of PHP programmers)
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tantek XgF - hence why those of us that use it use a deliberate subset :)
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XgF aaronpk: Hey, I use PHP occasionally too. It's practical, maybe pragmatic, and also disgusting :-)
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tantek http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/the-webs-inventor-regrets-one-small-thing/?_r=0 :)
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XgF For the curious, POSIX allows // and / to differ because I think Apollo used // to indicate "other machines" - think similar to Windows UNC paths
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tantek.com edited /IndieArchive (+110) "/* URL design */ drop // from archive path format, per TimBL suggestion" (view diff)
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tantek is rocking the citattion-fu today.
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barnabywalters “The double slash, though a programming convention at the time” — was // a “programming convention”?
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aaronpk comments?
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barnabywalters that’s still a convention now
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XgF barnabywalters: Maybe taken from Apollo (see my above comment on POSIX)?
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XgF Hmm, does anyone know if NeXTSTEP did something similar? TBL developed HTTP/HTML on a NeXT cube
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barnabywalters ooh good point
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tantek and then we could have had protocol relative URLs by starting them with ":" rather than "//"
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tantek (FYI why protocol relative URLs: http://nedbatchelder.com/blog/200710.html#e20071017T215538 )
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barnabywalters aaronpk: do you do anything special to handle query string params when translating URL -> filesystem path?
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aaronpk not yet
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barnabywalters e.g. if I sent a mention from http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1234?annoying=/../../../../../../../, what would happen?
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tantek heh
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tantek better escape those "." :)
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tantek or maybe just drop webmention sources with ".." in the URL
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tantek since we're talking about auto-ignoring spam anyway
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barnabywalters lol
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tantek might as well auto-ignore such sketchiness as well
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barnabywalters yeah, there’s probably no good reason to support mentions from people with .. in the URL
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XgF Though still, you probably want an escape sequence for query strings and such
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tantek have yet to see a real world use case
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XgF Maybe "__", with "__" -> "___", "?" -> "__q" or similar?
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tantek I'd say start with blanket dropping such URLs
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tantek with ".."
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aaronpk yeah so far nobody publishes pages with query strings
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tantek and wait for someone to complain with a real world use case
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tantek until then, tough.
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aaronpk s/pages/post pages/
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: yeah so far nobody publishes post pages with query strings
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barnabywalters okay, so dropping query string and ignoring any .. in the URL for the moment
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tantek no one says you have to accept webmentions from any type of URL
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aaronpk lol
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tantek query strings make for bad permalinks anyway
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tantek that could be another webmention filter
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tantek use well design URLs or your webmention gets ignored :P
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tantek could even have an error code for that
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aaronpk yeah, they're called "query" strings after all... not perma-strings
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barnabywalters aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 293 karma
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tantek 461 Source URL is fugly
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aaronpk hah! an opinionated HTTP server?
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XgF 410 Gone (your URL scared my webmention endpoint)
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barnabywalters 462 Volcano Fax Number: Source is using schema.org
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tantek that's too unforgiving. the webmention sender should be given a chance to clean up their source URL and try again. 410 implies don't webmention me ever again.
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tantek (410 that is, is too unforgiving)
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tantek barnabywalters LOL
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tantek.com created /webhosting (+25) "r" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - actually - there's 451 which is similar - Unavailable For Legal Reasons
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barnabywalters heh
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barnabywalters wow, didn’t know that one existed
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tantek as in Fahrenheit 451
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tantek but what we want to communicate is not that the requested URL is unavailable for legal reasons, but rather that we can't parse your source URL for legal reasons
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tantek so perhaps
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barnabywalters different to this 451? http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd439372%28v=EXCHG.80%29.aspx
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barnabywalters that one looks much less interesting
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tantek yes - this: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tbray-http-legally-restricted-status-02
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tantek so for something like webmention where the server is expected to go retrieve a URL provided by the client
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tantek 452 Source URL unparsable for legal reasons - e.g. schemaorg patent policy does not give patent permissions to parse schema (only to publish)
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tantek wow Google is filtering search results for schema within my website. I smell bad code or conspiracy
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barnabywalters tantek: or filter bubbling? I see plenty of results for site:tantek.com schema
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tantek barnabywalters - try the search box on tantek.com which includes extra parameters for strict date-time ordering of results
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tantek none of my schema-related osfw3c posts show up
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tantek I have to browse/nav to them explicitly by date
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barnabywalters huh, creepy
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tantek so yeah, return a 452 if someone sends a URL to HTML with schema markup, per: http://tantek.com/2013/219/t20/osfw3c-schema-org-bad-for-open-web
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tantek 3 months and they haven't updated their TOS like they claimed they would - so I don't believe/trust anyone at Google about schema any more.
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KevinMarks_ post pages with query strings are quite common in blogland
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barnabywalters KevinMarks2: referring to all the wordpress sites which use /?p=1
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barnabywalters ?
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KevinMarks_ yep
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KevinMarks_ and other PHP based things
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barnabywalters does wordpress automatically include a better canonical URL even if the page is accessed using that URL, or do you need a plugin for that?
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KevinMarks_ I fought this with rel=tag, fairly succesfully (though now it's used as reason for not using rel=tag)
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KevinMarks_ I think WP does better canonical URLs now, by default
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KevinMarks_ they used to use tag links with ? params too, which we policed out as an antipattern with technorati indexing
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snarfed barnabywalters: once it's published publicly, yes, and automatically redirects to it
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snarfed example: http://snarfed.org/?p=7020
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@ShaneHudson @adactio It really is starting to look like #IndieWeb is the *only* way forward. Otherwise the web is not going to be a nice place. (twitter.com/_/status/401488487058112512)
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