#indiewebcamp 2015-09-30

2015-09-30 UTC
tantek, parzzix, snarfed, lukebrooker, emceeaich, wolftune and nitot joined the channel
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+614) "Normative References h-entry for property names in the algorithm, Activity Streams for JSON, microformats2-parsing for canonical microformats2 JSON, cite normative references inline where needed" (view diff)
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acegiak Anyone else using bridgy finding that their POSSE tweets are coming up as mentions?
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aaronpk uhoh
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GWG acegiak: I've heard some things from snarfed about unintended consequences of recent upgrades
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acegiak lol, yeah https://acegiak.net/files/2015/09/Screenshot-300915-111253.png
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GWG acegiak: Lots going on.
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tantek I wonder if it might be possible to put some of the response-type discovery smarts on the webmention endpoint itself rather than depending on Bridgy to get the typing right
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tantek as far as mention vs reply at least
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GWG acegiak: If it makes you feel better, snarfed is thinking of you. https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks/issues/40
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tantek obv fave & repost need to be natively determined / sent by Bridgy
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aaronpk it's more a question of getting the bridgy markup from the silo right
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aaronpk but that text description is coming from bridgy and it doesn't have to
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GWG tantek: Isn't this the problem that dates back to pingbacks? How to show context appropriately?
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aaronpk it acts as a nice fallback if the webmention endpoint doesn't do anything other than parse plain h-entrys
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tantek sure - I like the idea of simplifying proxies though
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tantek it makes the individual sites more robust
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acegiak I've been a little absent so I'm not 100% up to date on what's happening
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acegiak but I'm aware we need to work out a way to make salmentions less hacky so it can go in the main semantic linkbacks repo
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GWG acegiak: Bridgy has been through a round of enhancements that have prompted some issues. I haven't gotten many mentions of late, as I've been less active of late, due injury.
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GWG But let's see...on the WordPress side, a bunch of pushes on Semantic Linkbacks and Webmentions...nothing earth shattering.
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GWG I'd been rewriting Post Kinds.
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acegiak GWG: you always are :P
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GWG acegiak: I'm trying to get it perfect.
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GWG acegiak: Either way, I keep thinking of ways to make it better or just designed better.
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GWG acegiak: So, I was teaching it to work with mf2 properties, even if they aren't in the post editor, as a way of iterating faster
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acegiak neat
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GWG So, a Micropub client can actually add functionality without creating a WordPress based Post UI yet. More parsing from the incoming URL...etc.
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GWG acegiak: So, now, just to annoy you, the plugin will look in either the in-reply-to property or the cite property for the URL, for example.
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acegiak >.<
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acegiak I'll just wait for the update and see if I need to fix anything :P
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GWG I have been waylaid by a medical problem. Limits my typing time
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acegiak that sucks
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Loqi lolz
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acegiak I've just been super busy and then super stressed about not being busy :P
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GWG I agree. I have to pace myself.
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GWG Also did some contributions to WordPress Core, or tried to.
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GWG And I have to work on a fix for Syndication Links based on an opened issue.
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tantek Loqi, I think your recent lolz have been inappropriate.
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GWG And I owe snarfed unit tests for Micropub
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tantek gives Loqi an ounce of empathy.
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Loqi grabs the ounce of empathy.
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tantek :)
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GWG acegiak: It is good to have you back though. You are the most engaged WordPress Indieweb user out there.
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GWG tantek: By the way, attempts to get hfeed fixed in the new twentysixteen WordPress theme failed. But I got them to stop styling hentry.
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aaronpk I am attempting to implement the post type discovery algorithm and use it to sort my posts into categories now
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aaronpk will report back soon
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aaronpk hmm "If the post has no content property, or has no name property..." but what is the post if there are neither?
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aaronpk I guess I kind of assumed a note post would have to have content of some kind
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KartikPrabhu there always is an implied name no?
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KevinMarks could just be a like?
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aaronpk then it's a "like" post
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emmak aaronpk: when sending the "syndication" property in a micropub create request, should it use array syntax?
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emmak do you know what ownyourgram does in this case?
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aaronpk emmak: the syntax allows any property to be sent as a string or array
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aaronpk for properties that can have multiple values, it's fine to send it as a string if you're just setting a single value
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aaronpk ownyourgram sends a string for syndication, but an array for category
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KartikPrabhu even if only one category is set?
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aaronpk pretty sure
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KartikPrabhu would be good to conform to mf2 and send all props as arrays?
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aaronpk no that's just awkward
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emmak so micropub endpoints should be able to understand both, for any property that could be an array?
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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aaronpk emmak: yeah
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KartikPrabhu if micropub is intended as a "reverse mf2" then it might want to send all props as arrays
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aaronpk but micropub also wants to be easy for people to use, and the simplicity of prop=value is important
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aaronpk so i'm reading through https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Algorithm and i'm pretty sure it's possible to get to step 12 with a post that has no content property and an empty string for name, and no other properties
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KartikPrabhu but yhen it off loads deciding which prop can be an array and which is only a string to the user anyway
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: if you wanted you could always store everything as an array, and just change strings to arrays in the micropub request
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yeah seems correct
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aaronpk my new micropub endpoint actually does a hybrid of that, when it goes to store the post in microformat syntax it changes any value to a string if there's only one value for that property
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I have been laggin behind on micropub developments with my endpoint so might have write some code to see how easy/hard it is
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KevinMarks aaronpk: if you get to 11 or 12 and name content are both empty, does it matter what kind of post it is?
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: is step 11 supposed to give False if name is blank string an there does not exist a content?
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aaronpk KevinMarks: i'm not sure, i guess i might want to not show a post if there is no content i know how to show, and the result of the algorithm as it stands won't tell me that
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: i don't think so, the algorithm is written to stop processing only if the step says "it is a ___ post"
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: oh. if the post has no content property it immediately satisfies Step 6 and is a note
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KevinMarks what if it has a summary?
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aaronpk summary doesn't affect post type according to this
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notenoughneon.com edited /Micropub (+161) "/* Create */ clarify array properties with single value" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub (+22) "/* Create */ add full example syndication URL" (view diff)
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KevinMarks right - I'm thinking of the case where the forntpage has summary not content, but does haave a title
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aaronpk heh
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KevinMarks so this will see them as notes, when they are articles
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: write so if a post has "no content property" it goes to "it is a note post" in Step 6
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KartikPrabhu right*
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aaronpk k I will document that
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KevinMarks hm, and http://aaronparecki.com/articles would all show up as notes as they just have titles
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KevinMarks s/title/name/
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: hm, and http://aaronparecki.com/articles would all show up as notes as they just have names
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aaronpk some of them have photos so they would actually be classified as photo posts
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KevinMarks actually, they all have photos, except lots of them are http://aaronparecki.com/images/article-icon.png
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aaronparecki.com edited /post-type-discovery (+588) "/* Issues */" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh that's my fault, the photo should have been the featured photo
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aaronpk actually no, I should be using "featured" for that, lol
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aaronpk that seems worth pushing a change to my old site for
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aaronpk k fixed
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aaronparecki.com edited /post-type-discovery (+217) "/* Issues */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub (+17) "/* Create */ nowiki" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /post-type-discovery (+351) "/* Issues */ videos" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: collecting some issues for you!
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tantek heh
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aaronpk so far I am liking the method of first determining the post type, then deciding which feeds to put it in
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tantek oh that's good feedback too!
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aaronpk also realizing there are going to be a lot of post types that are not standardized/formalized that I'm going to want to publish immediately that I'gm oing to have to figure out how to deal with
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aaronpk considering just scoping everything under p3k-* properties to avoid the issue (and probably not include that markup on the published post_
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tantek true - I should include an FAQ about that - about why it's good that a "note" is the ultimate fallback
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tantek plain text first design and all that
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aaronpk yep, plaintext first design means note is a good fallback. I'm just not certain an empty note is a good fallback
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tantek yes - that's how / why need to use p-summary
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tantek and all your new post types should include the plain text equivalent in the p-summary
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aaronpk there's still the case of what do I do if there is no or empty content, summary and name
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aaronpk oh yes! let me make a note so I don't forget to do that
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aaronpk interesting, so I think having this algorithm greatly simplified my code and I am now done with handling collections!
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tantek whoa - that's great!
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tantek even in it's imperfect state?
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tantek ;)
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aaronpk which was really starting to stress me out
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tantek s/it's/its
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aaronpk yes but it also establishes a pattern I can easily extend when I start filling up my site with experimental post types
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tantek wow I thought I had expressed that pattern on the /posts page already but perhaps not explicitly enough to be clear!
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aaronpk which pattern?
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aaronpk oh there are more post types here
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Inferring_post_kinds_from_properties
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aaronpk invitation and tag-of posts
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+175) "/* Algorithm */ use summary property if no content property, per issue from aaronpk re: summary" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+163) "/* Issues */ resolved issue lack of content should use summary as fallback" (view diff)
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tantek yes exactly
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+30) "/* Other Types Under Consideration */ add more types under consideration as pointed out by aaronpk. invitation, tag-of" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk: could you check resolution to first issue you filed today? https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Resolved
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aaronpk hmm well now step 6 does not result in ending the algorithm, is that intentional?
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tantek yes - it was easier to use a variable "the content"
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aaronpk and now the algorithm is a combination of determining post type and also specifying which value to use, but use for what?
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tantek only for determining post type
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aaronpk I am not clear what post type is the result of step 6 now
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tantek there is no post type as the result of step 6
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aaronpk keeps reading
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tantek note that 7 and 8 are "Else" clauses
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KartikPrabhu might be good to put if else into nested steps
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aaronpk so now step 9 ends in the post being a note if there is either content or summary but no name?
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tantek nesting-- :P
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Loqi nesting has -1 karma
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aaronpk i guess this is harder to translate to code now because I don't know what to do on step 6 with the content
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tantek aaronpk yes! that's how it worked before but only with if there was content but no name
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aaronpk before it had an explicit "then it is a note" which means I can return there
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aaronpk tries to re-read this as if he had not seen it earlier
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tantek that "then it is a note" is still in step 9
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tantek here I'll line break it for you
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aaronpk steps 6-8 are now in my code as if(content) { content = content } else if(summary) { content = summary } else { return 'note' }
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aaronpk is that what you intended?
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aaronpk okay i think this works, but it is slightly less obvious what is happening since I have to carry over the content from step 6-7 all the way to step 13
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+81) "/* Algorithm */ add line-breaks to make ORs and THENs clearer" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk is this more readable? https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Algorithm
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aaronpk yes but the readability was not my confusion
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tantek well at least it's more readable
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aaronpk could you add this before step 6? "If the post has no "content" property and no "summary" property, or if both are empty, then it is a note post"
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tantek that's basically step 6,7,8
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tantek "8. Else it is a note post. "
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aaronpk right, but it means less carrying state between steps
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aaronpk that's what I liked about how it was written originally
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tantek no there's no state there
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aaronpk mental state
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tantek ok
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aaronpk right now I read step 6 and I can't actually do anything until I get to step 8, and then I still have to remember what was happening in step 6 to continue
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kylewm tantek: should I add my note to the wiki about the content.contains(name) check that i do?
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kylewm sorry name.contains(content)
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kylewm my check is the opposite of what's there currently
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aaronpk kylewm: add that with examples to "issues" and we can get there later :)
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aaronpk tantek: yeah i think if you add what I wrote, then you can move the current steps 6+7 down to just before you need them which is at step 13
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tantek aaronpk: hmm, the alternative appears to be doing the tests mutiple times
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tantek that seems worse
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aaronpk oh, hmm
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aaronpk true, there will be always an extra check for summary or content
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tantek except as it's written now
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kylewm.com edited /post-type-discovery (+363) "/* Issues */ note name.contains(content)" (view diff)
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aaronpk right. let me try something with my code...
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tantek aaronpk re: your next issue "but no content or summary"
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aaronpk hang on one sec
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aaronpk I think it might actulally be ok to reorder those
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aaronpk i'm writing this code imagining the new sequence of checking content+summary and then later using the values
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aaronpk it's a pretty obvious optimization to me that I will need content and summary later and that I can just cache them when I fetch them at first
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tantek ok
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@kylewmahan realizing tonight that a lot of web hosting companies are basically internet scams preying on inexperienced ppl. big challenge for #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/649078256897953793)
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tantek yikes kylewm
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tantek can we document which ones with citations at /web_hosting ?
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kylewm i can't yet
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tantek ugh
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kylewm going to #indiechat :/
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aaronpk okay not sure if this will be helpful for you tantek, but I have three versions of this code if you want to see it
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aaronpk tantek: v1 is the algorithm as its currently on the wiki https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/f8711b886011033d7dda
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aaronpk v2 is with the reordered steps like I described, and you can see i'm fetching content and summary twice like you said https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/9951a0221a878ba7a917
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aaronpk v3 is with the simple caching trick so I don't have to go fetch content and summary when I need them later https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/400d35952dbe768fcb66
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aaronpk (and yes you should basically be reading this as pseudocode since I'm using functions that are not defined in the gist, primarily $this->get)
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+434) "resolved issue, "unknown" is worse than "note" as fallback, display/presentation is outside the scope of this specification" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /video (+70) "/* Shane Becker */ fix links, note latest post was 2013" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+396) "resolve issue, reject video for now due to only one "current" u-video example. all other video examples are old or don't use u-video" (view diff)
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tantek sorry to reject video aaronpk - evidene not there for it yet :/
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tantek s/evidene/evidence
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aaronpk wow i thought there were more!
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Loqi tantek meant to say: sorry to reject video aaronpk - evidence not there for it yet :/
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tantek aaronpk: well if there are, they're not documented
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tantek for example, you're not one yourself!
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tantek (you have animated gifs, but no video AFAIK)
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aaronpk what!
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aaronpk no it's on there
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tantek check yourself: https://indiewebcamp.com/video#Aaron_Parecki
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aaronpk "MP4 recording of laptop screen demonstrating original-post-discovery" does that not count as a video?
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tantek you're not using u-video
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aaronpk oh I see what happened... that was an autolinked one
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tantek plus that would only make 2. I deliberately put the bar at 3 for post type discovery
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aaronpk i have actual u-video posts now
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tantek and I should add "recent" or "active"
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/09/10/1/xoxofest
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tantek then those should be at https://indiewebcamp.com/video#Aaron_Parecki with the non u-video posts perhaps just as historical addendum
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tantek for when you started posting video-like things
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+22) "/* Methodology */ recent (< 1 year old) permalinks" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+259) "/* Issues */ respond to remaining issues with questions" (view diff)
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@haverholm RT @benwerd: I do not give Facebook permission to use my pictures ... #indieweb http://werd.io/2015/i-do-not-give-facebook-permission-to-use-my-pictures (twitter.com/_/status/649089064575107072)
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aaronparecki.com edited /video (+73) "/* Aaron Parecki */ update video support" (view diff)
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aaronpk huh, ben_thatmustbeme's video URL is actually the HTML page and not the media file
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tantek that's even worse!
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tantek please document that
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tantek !tell kylewm what do you think of making the note / article distinction an "OR" e.g. "name.contains(content) OR content.startswith(name)" means post is a note?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell kylewm also noted inline https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Issues
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronparecki.com edited /video (+106) "/* Ben Roberts */" (view diff)
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tantek yeah we're pretty far from any kind of video interop
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aaronpk yeah apparently
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tantek benwerd - do you have any other /video posts
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tantek ?
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aaronpk related, Vimeo said there is no way they would link to the raw video file either
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aaronpk they wanted to have a way for readers/consumers to get the "embed code" (the iframe) to render in a reader or such
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aaronpk so yeah, likely we are far from a good interop story for video
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tantek I wonder if they would support some sort of video playback status/controller API through postmessage and their iframe
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tantek so you could play pause restart a video via JS controls on your own site
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aaronpk interesting
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aaronpk https://developer.vimeo.com/player/js-api
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tantek oh!
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aaronpk they do!
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tantek could enable Thisismyjam style home page / reader of other people's jams
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benwerd tantek: Just seen this. Not yet. But I will again.
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tantek benwerd, it seems we /video posts took a bit of a setback since 2013
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tantek video is (still) hard
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aaronpk speaking of which, I just dug up some old videos I made in like 2002-2004 and they don't play on my mac because codecs
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aaronpk at least that part has gotten better
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tantek sigh
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tantek ironically, older codecs should go patent-free sooner due to expiring, and thus be supported by open source, etc.
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aaronpk ha good point
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aaronpk i think the next big challenge for me with my new site is figuring out how to handle storing comments and such
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aaronpk I think I have too many intermediate steps with my current approach, plus I've encountered several cases where I can't store some URLs
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aaronpk some of this is documented here: http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieArchive#Storage
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aaronpk still not sure on this though. i'm considering doing something similar to https://github.com/aaronpk/ca3db for storing the HTML of external posts
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KevinMarks pestagram has video posts
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tantek you know where and how to document that ;)
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aaronpk ownyourgram *sends* video posts... I wonder if anyone is handling those
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KevinMarks hm, though we don;t seem to see class="u-video" on a <video> tag
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KevinMarks http://www.pestagram.com/user/326193259
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KevinMarks oh, hang on it is there
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pestagram.com%2Fuser%2F326193259&html=&pretty=on
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KevinMarks I missed it in the comments
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KevinMarks do I file pestagram under silo?
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kevinmarks.com edited /video (+208) "/* add Pestagram */" (view diff)
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aaronpk pestagram isn't a silo because it doesn't actually store any content of its own
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KartikPrabhu Silo Indieweb Pipe Service = SIPS
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kevinmarks.com edited /video (+193) "/* unmung */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks there we go, lots of video piped into h-feeds for you subscribing pleasure
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KevinMarks aaronpk: BTW, Quill editor won't accept an mp4 URL for video, only a silo link.
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aaronpk yeah, it says that tho so it's not a bug ;)
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KevinMarks hm, I shoudl get the interneta rchive to mqrk up with h-entry and u-video
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aaronpk yes!
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voxpelli aaronpk: I should be handling videos from ownyourgram
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KevinMarks more js;dr problems https://meta.discourse.org/t/the-state-of-javascript-on-android-in-2015-is-poor/33889/6
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell aaronpk, tantek re: video tag, my u-video does NOT link to the post, look at the source and see for yourself, pin13 reads it that way (bug?) (unmung parses that differently). It needs to be moved to the <source> tag is all. Should check that before you comment on others implementation.... i mean really, that would make no sense. honestly, i think working out some way for the tag to be on the <video> / <audio>
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ben_thatmustbeme / <photo> tag would be better for when there are multiple sources
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /video (+9) "/* Ben Roberts */ correct inaccurate commentary" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /video (+266) "/* How */ show how to mark up multiple source videos" (view diff)
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rhiaro.co.uk edited /post-type-discovery (+87) "/* Next steps */" (view diff)
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fiatjaf I can't get a correct bridgy URL for any of these comments: https://brid-gy.appspot.com/post/facebook/987100564687701/996189387112152
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fiatjaf example: https://www.brid.gy/comment/facebook/987100564687701/996189387112152/996193660445058
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fiatjaf what am I doing wrong?
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petermolnar !tell pfefferle this might interest you: https://make.wordpress.org/core/2015/09/30/feature-plugin-merge-proposal-oembed/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] Ben, I don't think I made that wiki edit.
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[tantek] However, thanks for the "how to" improvement on /video !
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Loqi [tantek]: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 1 hour, 52 minutes ago: re: video tag, my u-video does NOT link to the post, look at the source and see for yourself, pin13 reads it that way (bug?) (unmung parses that differently). It needs to be moved to the <source> tag is all. Should check that before you comment on others implementation.... i mean really, that would make no sense. honestly, i think working out some way for the tag to be on the <video> / <audio> http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-30/line/1443610171345
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[tantek] I think perhaps that was aaronpk'so observation? Not sure if he was using pin13 or what. I just did view source at the time I checked, and then cited your example (as the only recent right one!) in post type discovery.
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[aaronpk] Aha my bad
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Loqi [aaronpk]: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 3 hours, 36 minutes ago: re: video tag, my u-video does NOT link to the post, look at the source and see for yourself, pin13 reads it that way (bug?) (unmung parses that differently). It needs to be moved to the <source> tag is all. Should check that before you comment on others implementation.... i mean really, that would make no sense. honestly, i think working out some way for the tag to be on the <video> / <audio> http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-30/line/1443610171345
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[aaronpk] I put too much faith in mf2 parsing
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[aaronpk] I definitely was looking at the parsed result from pin13. I pretty much never actually view source anymore since people's html tends to be harder to read than the mf2 JSON
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kylewm fiatjaf: facebook comment ids aren't very predictable... they vary between ~3 different formats. in this case they want postid_commentid, so the url is https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/facebook/987100564687701/996189387112152/996189387112152_996193660445058
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 9 hours, 28 minutes ago: what do you think of making the note / article distinction an "OR" e.g. "name.contains(content) OR content.startswith(name)" means post is a note? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-29/line/1443590514605
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 9 hours, 28 minutes ago: also noted inline https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Issues http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-29/line/1443590532732
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KevinMarks hm, sounds like we need more tests for u-video markup given source issues
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aaronpk also looks like the php parser needs updating for video tags
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fiatjaf kylewm: so that's a thing of the facebook API, then?
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fiatjaf thank you very much.
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kylewm.com edited /post-type-discovery (+509) "/* Issues */ add example of name.contains(content), ask if there are examples of content.startswith(name)" (view diff)
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kylewm fiatjaf: yeah unfortunately. the only reliable way I know of to find the comment ids is to look at the post's /comment edge in the api
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aaronparecki.com edited /post-type-discovery (+309) "/* Issues */" (view diff)
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fiatjaf.alhur.es edited /Webmention (+177) "Added went as a "Handling" library" (view diff)
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Jeena No HWC next week either in Gothenburg because I'm in Berlin for the Qt World Summit.
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tantek Jeena - can you make a note in the /next-hwc page? (don't remove Gothenburg - just make a note saying exactly what you said)
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Jeena Yes
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jeena.net edited /events/2015-10-07-homebrew-website-club (+84) "/* Where */ Göteborg" (view diff)
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Jeena oh weird formatting
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tantek so about PuSH, and it specifies SHA1 which is obsolete, and perhaps specifying any particular crypto is problematic for this reasons, though not doing so may hurt interop
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tantek and about the ability to force at PuSH hub to use "none" as a security vulnerability that should be documented in a Security & Privacy considerations section
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jeena.net edited /events/2015-10-07-homebrew-website-club (+0) "/* Where */ Göteborg" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, voxpelli
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aaronpk github issue for SHA1 is filed
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tantek URL?
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aaronpk https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/PubSubHubbub/issues/40
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voxpelli If there's a from header in PuSH then it's probably in relation to Blaine Cook's ideas I linked to here a couple of weeks/months ago
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aaronpk is anyone actually using the From header for anything? if not, I would suggest removing that from the spec
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tantek sounds like another good github issue
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voxpelli aaronpk: the signature is "sha1=abc123" no? So already pluggable
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aaronpk especially since it's totally irrelevant to the actual functionality of PuSH "In the context of social web applications, it is considered good practice to include a From..."
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tantek and yeah - if it's not obvious why a feature is there (documented use-case) then lets push to remove it
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voxpelli From-headers must be emails according to its spec and would therefore require WebFinger:esque identifiers
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aaronpk it just seems that "it is considered good practice" is not very compelling
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voxpelli aaronpk: remember our discussion around PuSH based private messaging? That's kind of the purpose of such a header I think
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tantek perhaps anywhere you see "it is considered" should be a red flag
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aaronpk hmm
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tantek voxpelli: but did anyone ever build it and get it working cross-implementation?
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aaronpk I would want that to be much more well thoguht out for the private messaging use case
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tantek sounds aspirational
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voxpelli tantek: everything went through a JSON:pocalypse instead I think, but Blaine Cook is really the one to know about it
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voxpelli I think this is the related blog
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voxpelli http://blog.romeda.org/2011/03/private-webhooks-private-feeds.html
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tantek voxpelli: yeah, first the JSONpocalypse, and now everything JSON-related in W3C is going through a JSONLDpocalypse.
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voxpelli tantek: isn't everything on the IndieWeb-wiki just patterns considered to be best practices rather than strict standards that requires compliance? ;)
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aaronpk the IWC wiki doesnt make unsubstantiated claims that something "is considered best practice"
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tantek I hope not!
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tantek voxpelli: there is a big difference between "Here are real world examples with permalinks and real people citations" vs. "it is considered to be" zero citations zero mention of specific people.
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tantek AKA "weasel wording"
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tantek (not my term, from wikipedia)
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voxpelli Know Blaine talked a lot about From headers at Federated Social Web Summit in Berlin 2011, that's when OStatus was about to go JSON and lots of talks about private messaging was in the air
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tantek What is it is considered to be
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "it is considered to be" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/103i
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voxpelli And PuSH 0.4 was the main missing piece in having OStatus go full JSON so it was probably authored around that time
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@pypi_updates went 0.1.0: Tools for implementing a webmention enpoint. https://pypi.python.org/pypi/went/0.1.0 (twitter.com/_/status/649259408430657536)
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voxpelli The documentation from
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tantek it is considered to be is a form of [[weasel wording]] that is sometimes used in specifications to justify features or assertions that have little or no basis in actual citable evidence or real world examples, because if it did then such citations would be cited!
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voxpelli That era seems to be lacking though
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tantek haha does Loqi not handle definitions of phrases with "is" in them?
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Loqi is done
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tantek apparently
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tantek gives Loqi a definition for is
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Loqi enjoys the definition for is
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Loqi [mention] someone wrote a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ https://webmention.io/notification/EcPIgPYomwsM9UW59M0ovA
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voxpelli What one might want to do regarding the From-header is to continue the discussion on private data in PuSH
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aaronpk agreed, it seems like an extension or future development of PuSH and not related to the core at all
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voxpelli So that it eg. can work with public/private post upgrading https://indiewebcamp.com/private_posts#Public_Page_Upgrading
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aaronpk pull request filed to remove that phrase https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/PubSubHubbub/pull/41
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aaronpk voxpelli: re the signature, it's true the payload format allows a sort of extensibility by doing something like sha256=xxxx instead of sha1=xxxx
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aaronpk but the spec right now requires SHA1
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aaronpk "...where signature is a 40-byte, hexadecimal representation of a SHA1 signature"
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voxpelli aaronpk: yeah, just commented on the issue
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aaronpk cool
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tantek.com created /it_is_considered_to_be (+573) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-30/line/1443630592944" (view diff)
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aaronpk that certainly would work. the only concern is that seems to go towards a path of not necessarily compatible implementations
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voxpelli not that many accepted algorithms out there? And one could still have a "must" on a fallback to sha1 if no better algorithms match
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aaronpk the problem with a MUST fallback like that is at some point sha1 will be trivially hackable and then it's like having no signature
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aaronpk but yeah there aren't toooo many accetable algorithms, and the whole industry tends to be aware of them at approximately the same pace
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voxpelli Other option is to do like OAuth 1 does and just allow anything
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rhiaro tantek, aaronpk: Between flights, I wrote about my post-type detection implementation: http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/09/post-type
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voxpelli As long as there's a mechanism for algo-negotiation it should be possible for best practices to emerge I think
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rhiaro Aaaand now boarding the flight to Boston
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voxpelli OAuth 1 can't negotiate algo, hence almost everyone are stuck on sha1, including Twitter
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: its an error case really, how do you handle u- on something that doesn't have a src= value
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ben_thatmustbeme unmung handles it equally confusingly
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voxpelli aaronpk: did you find any other issue with PuSH? One challenge with it right now is that it's a versions document rather than a living spec
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ben_thatmustbeme that was in regards to video tag thing from earlier
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voxpelli aaronpk: perhaps file an issue about making a living PuSH spec to take over after 0.4? So it can keep up with all other living specs
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: oh you know what's happening with the php one? it's getting a blank value from the u- property, and then doing the relative URL resolution on it, resulting in the page's URL
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ben_thatmustbeme sort of tempted to do <span class="e-video"><video><source> ....
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aaronpk voxpelli: are we stuck on making progress on 0.4 because it's versioned?
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ben_thatmustbeme thats what i figured
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voxpelli aaronpk: versions specs carry the expectation of being stable so yeah, eg. HTML5 dropped the version number when it went living I think
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tantek voxpelli: not really. WHATWG dropped the "5". W3C embraced it.
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tantek so now we have both "HTML: Living Spec" and "W3C HTML5" (frozen feature set)
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tantek both are useful
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tantek.com edited /weasel_word (+26) "it is considered" (view diff)
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voxpelli tantek: in relation to PuSH it feels like a living spec is what the IndieWeb community would want, right? But feed readers and the blogosphere probably doesn't want any changes
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tantek.com edited /it_is_considered_to_be (+34) ""it is considered" shorter version" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /it_is_considered_to_be (-1) "" vs ''" (view diff)
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tantek.com moved /it_is_considered_to_be to /it_is_considered "shorter"
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tantek.com edited /it_is_considered (+0) (view diff)
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tantek voxpelli: yes IndieWeb uses more of a "living spec" model since we're evolving / iterating things so rapidly
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tantek voxpelli: "doesn't want any changes" is a good way to become obsolete
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aaronpk even a lot of software development is moving away from the specific versioning
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aaronpk browsers are proud that they're able to push out updates to users automatically now, which means browser version numbers virtualy don't matter
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voxpelli aaronpk: you will probably receive less push back if the PuSH spec was made a living one, so suggesting it may make eg the algo change easier
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tantek aaronpk: except on caniuse.com :P
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aaronpk okay, do you think it's a reasonable suggestion for me to file an issue for that then?
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tantek.com edited /it_is_considered (+46) "citation for The man behind the curtain ;)" (view diff)
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tantek sure - that will be interesting to see what happens
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rhiaro.co.uk edited /post-type-discovery (+162) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /it_is_considered (+74) "cite ietf.org search for it is considered to be" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /it_is_considered (+4) "%22s" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /lulz (+23) "it is considered to be lulz" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /lulz (+33) "see also" (view diff)
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aaronpk so I went down this whole rabbit hole of figuring out a way to reliably store URLs mapped to a filesystem http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieArchive#Storage
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aaronpk but now I'm thinking about dropping that whole idea and switching to something more like https://github.com/aaronpk/ca3db instead, which supports storing multiple versions of content easier
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aaronpk i'm not totally happy with either solution though
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: thanks for documenting this. will be useful for my file storage plans
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tantek ooh I'm definitely interested in ideas around storing multiple version of content, in particular multiple versions of files and URLs
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 965 karma
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aaronpk i'm at the part of my site rebuild where I need to store comments and such
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tantek aaronpk: I have some notes on " storing multiple versions of files / URLs" here: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki-projects#Brainstorming
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KartikPrabhu yes that was my use case as well
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tantek ironically, having personal wiki pages with saved versions is a bigger use-case for me than storing versions of comments!
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aaronpk true
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vanderven.se martijn edited /lulz (+15) "There is a Ben page on here too." (view diff)
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@rhiaro Post type discovery: http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/09/post-type #socialwg #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/649272597528604673)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: any particular reason for adding ":" after domain name folder?
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aaronpk yes, i thought i documented that
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aaronpk could be clearer
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KartikPrabhu couldn't find reason "Append a : to the name of the folder (appears as / on OSX in Finder)"
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieArchive (+258) "/* Storage */ make use of : more explicit" (view diff)
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aaronpk the key is "Note that without appending ":" to folders, it would be impossible to store all these files on disk since "example.com/tags" would have to be both a file and a folder.", but basically chose ":" because it looks like / in Finder
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KartikPrabhu ahh gotcha
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aaronpk that's what broke in my current implementation, I started getting errors about not being able to create files then I realized what was happening
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aaronpk so hey it's not a theoretical problem :)
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KartikPrabhu is wondering if he can make everything a file instead of organising into folder heirarchy
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KartikPrabhu might not be best for IndieArchive though
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aaronpk you'll hit filesystem limits of max files in a folder tho
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KartikPrabhu oh crap! didn't think of that
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aaronpk not to mention "ls" or Finder hanging like crazy trying to list all the files
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aaronpk has some experience with too many files in a folder
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KartikPrabhu might want to add to that page then?
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aaronpk that's why mediawiki stores images in subfolders of their hash
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aaronpk if the hash is abcdefg it goes in a folder like a/b/abcdefg
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+125) "status, editor's draft, mature enough though for implementation and feedback!" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu man! file storage is hard...
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aaronpk computers are hard!
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KartikPrabhu lets use index cards
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tantek rhiaro++ for blogging about post type discovery!
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Loqi rhiaro has 165 karma
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: hang on let me send you a reply on an index card via carrier pigeon
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KartikPrabhu then i'll file it in my giant cabinet!
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+20) "link implementations" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+2) "[]" (view diff)
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aaronpk hm wondering if it's possible to turn my post type discovery code into a library
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aaronpk the trick is what serialization or object would it work against? parsed mf2 json I guess?
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fiatjaf.alhur.es edited /Webmention (+267) "add jekmentions as a service for receiving webmentions" (view diff)
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Jeena I wonder if there is something in microformats to describe my relation to my band and to friends with their own domains (blogroll!)
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tantek Jeena - to friends in your blogroll - that's precisely the use-case that XFN ( gmpg.org/xfn ) was designed for!
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tantek for relation to your band, see and add to: http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-brainstorming#Simple_Groups_and_Members
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Kongaloosh tell tbrb where are we meeting this week?
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Jeena interesting that I never heard of XFN before
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: just received your index card via pigeon! thanks
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KartikPrabhu ;)
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aaronpk :D
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tantek.com edited /plurality (+86) "emojicon" (view diff)
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Jeena so if I link to the IndieWebCamp website I theoretically could also put a rel="member" on that link?
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Jeena oh no, rel="group" I mean
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tantek.com edited /plurality (+216) "expand dfn" (view diff)
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tantek true!
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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indie-visitor akolonin
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tantek.com edited /Diaspora (+178) "/* Criticism */ monoculture evidence, Diaspora homepage links to a singular codebase repo" (view diff)
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kylewm what is a living spec?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "living spec" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/103k
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kylewm (genuine question)
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tantek kylewm: you may want to ask in #whatwg ;)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Diaspora (+507) (view diff)
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bear remember that even index cards are usually stored in a partioned manner
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tantek bear, as are punchcards ;)
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bear gets all sentimental remembering his punchcard "library" of routines
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kylewm Looks like living spec means it is updated continuously based on feedback from implementers and consumers
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KevinMarks why is there no random() in CSS?
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aaronpk <3 bridgy facebook notification that authorization is expired
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aaronpk sadface that I don't check my facebook notifications very often :P
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[snarfed] aaronpk: aww thanks. subscribe to your fb notif rss feed!
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[snarfed] i love that they have that. they'll probably kill it any day now, but still
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aaronpk oh ha good point
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aaronpk I will once I finish my (new) reader
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[snarfed] i guess i could also email when it expires... but... no
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aaronpk no no not necessary lol
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KevinMarks tantek, you'll know this: why is there no random() or access to current time in CSS? Cam only do deterministic animations because of this
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tantek I have a feeling, uh, because crypto? ;)
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aaronpk cause computers can't be random :P
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aaronpk except when you don't want them to be
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tantek someone tries animating a virtual lava lamp, someone reads somewhere that you can do crypto by sampling a lava lamp. hilarity ensues.
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KevinMarks that was exactly what I was debating https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/649270771148173313
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@kevinmarks This is a great use of SVG to make a lava lamp http://codepen.io/chrisgannon/blog/how-to-make-an-svg-lava-lamp but could you do it with SVG animation, not js? @tabatkins? (twitter.com/_/status/649270771148173313)
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KevinMarks so even though css+html is turing complete, we can't do a PNRG because we don't have a way to seed it?
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KevinMarks or can't make a clock in pure CSS, have to use JS to look up the time.
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aaronpk know what blew my mind the other day? the calc() function in css.
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KevinMarks can you get a random number out of CSS by using calc() to count things that may not have loaded yet?
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aaronpk ever since I started learning css I always wanted that to exist
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aaronpk and apparently it's been there for a while, so I guess I need to go back to school or somethign
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ShaneHudson_ Quite a few things like that have been there for a while but with poor support. It is all getting better now :)
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ShaneHudson_ I was amazed yesterday that everything from IE8+ supports counter
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aaronpk i don't even know what that is
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ShaneHudson_ Basically a way to access the counter of generated content (ie. a list). So you can reset the numbers etc. Basically one of the first CSS variables.
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ShaneHudson_ I used it to hide the default numbers and add them back in as a psuedo, so that it could be styled further than usual
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aaronpk neat
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ShaneHudson_ Also, current-color is a really nice one that has pretty good browser support now, lets you get the current text colour. So you can create nice underlines (with a gap for hanging letters) using shadows etc with the colour set to the current. Useful, though hacky
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KartikPrabhu I use current Color for SVG icons
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@kevinmarks 20 minutes into #indieweb and chill and @withknown bot gives you this look… https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/649325547328114692/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/649325547328114692)
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KevinMarks facebook catches up with feature from http://acegiak.net/ http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/30/facebook-profile-gif/
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@pypi_updates went 0.1.1: Tools for implementing a webmention enpoint. https://pypi.python.org/pypi/went/0.1.1 (twitter.com/_/status/649353781575057408)
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@pypi_updates went 0.1.2: Tools for implementing a webmention enpoint. https://pypi.python.org/pypi/went/0.1.2 (twitter.com/_/status/649355793897246720)
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@pypi_updates went 0.1.3: Tools for implementing a webmention enpoint. https://pypi.python.org/pypi/went/0.1.3 (twitter.com/_/status/649358312320970753)
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@artwisanggeni #python went 0.1.3: Tools for implementing a webmention enpoint. https://pypi.python.org/pypi/went/0.1.3 (twitter.com/_/status/649358599412580353)
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KevinMarks where is the micropub posting html vs plaintext written up?
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KevinMarks nm, found it
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acegiak kevinmarks, lol and like, every pre-2007 website
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KevinMarks yours is nice and subtle though
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acegiak there's a scene atthe end of serenity where the graves have looping bits of video holographically projected and it's subtle but lively and nice
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acegiak which is what I want gif profiles to feel like
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acegiak or at least mine :