#indiewebcamp 2015-11-23

2015-11-23 UTC
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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kylewm snarfed: FYI, I'm getting HTTP 403 "Pings are disabled for this post" trying to webmention you
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snarfed https://twitter.com/jleedev/status/668462487122141184
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@jleedev [photo] (twitter.com/_/status/668462487122141184)
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GWG kylewm: acegiak is why I think about it.
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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tantek still iterating on person-tag UI brainstorming
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tantek authoring in particular
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tantek and implications for display and syndication, especially to tweets
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endi Pardon my ignorance of on-going projects and ideas but is anyone working on or talking about something resembling an aggregator for content originating on indieweb sites?
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kevinmarks what is indienews?
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Loqi IndieNews is an indieweb news aggregator, similar to Hacker News, which only accepts submissions via webmention https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieNews
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kevinmarks what is woodwind?
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Loqi Woodwind is Kyle Mahan's minimalist open source indie reader https://indiewebcamp.com/Woodwind
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endi awesome, I was reading through the project page and I must have missed it. thanks kevinmarks :)
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endi yeah, I was aware of Woodwind, what I was thinking was somewhere between Medium and Reddit. You'd register your site and it would automatically aggregate/categorize and perhaps surface individual posts based on activity
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endi sort of a discover mechanism for people interested in the people that are active using their indieweb site
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kevinmarks wow, people are actually using svgur.com now: http://svgur.com/s/2N
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voxpelli endi: IndieNews is sort of that – but only for IndieWeb-related posts
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kevinmarks Known is working on it for institutional installs
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endi voxpelli: yeah, I'm taking a look at it now. What I was thinking of was not necessarily indieweb related or technology related
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voxpelli at the more general level, with POSSE and everything, the more IndieWebby idea would be to mix indieweb-content with silo-content if one wanted to do a more generic aggregator
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endi I think it would be really interesting to see people utilizing all the powerful tools I've been discovering and playing with sort of, in action, on a more general scale not necessarily feeding back into indieweb
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voxpelli would eg. be pretty cool of something like Nuzzel added IndieWeb as another data source
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endi that would be cool
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endi what I was thinking would be a way to aggregate and surface posts from indieweb people that would help discovery of sites and ultimately promote the idea that your content or posts can be discovered outside your personal network
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endi that's kind of why I say somewhere between a reddit and medium because I see posts on medium from people I don't follow, perhaps wouldn't follow, but it gets surfaced and that's kind of a cool aspect of medium
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endi so if I used indieweb tools and platforms let's say Known to make a 'chemistry-of-cooking' or 'sous-vide' style blog I could register it at indiewebaggregator.com/food and when I make posts it might pull it into the /food stream and perhaps surface it more based on activity
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endi I can see where someone would have to ban/moderate the included sites and that could smell of centralization, but I'm sure a reporting system with loose moderation could be effective. at least a 'hide posts from this domain'
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endi even if it were only personally applied
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voxpelli eg. Bloglovin, which I used to work for, does that
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endi so if I as a user were interested in Maker/DIY I could go to indiewebstream.com/maker and see posts people who have registered with the site and have tagged as 'maker' or 'diy' and see all the hardware projects etc that indieweb users are posting about, even if I don't know them or none of my friends know them
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endi cool I'll take a look
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voxpelli but just for regular blogs, not enhanced with any extra IndieWeb stuff, but from a perspective of Medium the IndieWeb stuff doesn't add that much – it's more when one try to duplicate Twitter/Facebook that IndieWeb does
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kevinmarks technorati used to do it for all blogs
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kevinmarks such spam
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endi I suppose, I'm a noob around here so I don't even know half the tools that have been built by this community
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voxpelli right now not that many tools in the reader/aggregator space has been built – but since the IndieWeb is an evolution of eg. blogs, many tools that has long worked for blogs can easily be upgraded to make use of IndieWeb tech
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kevinmarks hah https://twitter.com/metabrew/status/668740664386043904
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@metabrew the #Brexit campaign have got it all wrong. they need to lead with: "no more cookie-consent popups on websites" (twitter.com/_/status/668740664386043904)
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voxpelli but yeah, as kevinmarks points out, preferably with less spam :P
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endi I was just thinking "I wonder what 'indieweb' people use these tools/formats/etc to do" and from that came what if there was a place it was all aggregated based on the use of those tools rather than determined by my social media network or any other existing structure
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endi Right, spam would be a huge consideration
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voxpelli endi: one place to find a lot of indieweb-people if one wants to manually check them out is https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people :)
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endi I like and appreciate the power of aggregators I use daily for content and sources I've curated. I just wonder sometimes what I'm missing because I haven't yet found that person/source
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voxpelli and: https://twitter.com/kylewmahan/lists/indiewebcamp
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endi ah now the twitter list I'm all about :)
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endi still hinges on a single source of curation but it's a good start for me, thanks :D
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voxpelli I think that list was created from the /irc-people page :)
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endi yeah I figured
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endi kevinmarks: svgur is awesome; you're going to need to incorporate CC licensing soon :)
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endi or just disclaimer it's all CC0 :p
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tantek.com edited /person-tag (+1145) "/* tweet text */ tweet inline person-tags" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /person-tag (+280) "/* Plain text authoring */ minimal separate field UI" (view diff)
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snarfed1 bridgy now sends wms to your home page for @-mentions on twitter!
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snarfed1 https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/523
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snarfed1 rhiaro may now be able to delete the twitter app from her phone :P
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@stevedowe My Current Indieweb Setup | Acegiak http://stevedowe.me/2015/11/my-current-indieweb-setup-acegiak.html (twitter.com/_/status/668814251721535488)
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ben_thatmustbeme woah, nice
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 172 karma
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rhiaro Yay!
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Loqi giggles
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rhiaro snarfed++
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voxpelli Bridgy -> WM -> My site -> My endpoint -> Mention h-feed -> Granary -> Feedbin -> Push notification
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voxpelli In theory that should work :) Just need to get around to activate Bridgy again
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snarfed ahahaha wow
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aaronparecki.com edited /Webmention (-98) (view diff)
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rhiaro argh I keep forgetting bridgy is posseing everything to twitter automatically now
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rhiaro maybe I should just call it a feature instead of a bug and accep tit
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rhiaro snarfed, if a post has a summary does bridgy posse this instead of the content?
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rhiaro is too lazy to look this up herself, but will do eventually
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aaronparecki.com created /Webmention-brainstorming (+13064) "move brainstorming section to its own page" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Webmention () "(-13045) /* Brainstorming */ move to its own page" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Webmention-brainstorming (+2503) "move more discussion to brainstorming page" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Webmention () "(-2503) move more discussion to brainstorming page" (view diff)
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@jgmac1106 Sorry missed #indieweb birthday wishes. You deserve mad props. In two years have shifted conversations in education and how we #teachtheweb (twitter.com/_/status/668839873256808450)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieAuth (+0) "/* Details */ fix link" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Webmention-brainstorming (+5775) "move issues here too" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Webmention () "(-5775) /* Issues */ move issues to [[Webmention-brainstorming]]" (view diff)
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snarfed rhiaro: how bridgy converts mf2 to tweet text is long and hotly debated. :P docs: https://brid.gy/about#microformats
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rhiaro bridgy isn't converting my mf2, that's for sure, my markdown is seeping through
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rhiaro hmmmm
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rhiaro probably means I can send a summary myself
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snarfed also if you're iterating on your posse handling, you might be interested in https://kylewm.com/2015/11/silo-pub-as-a-generic-micropub-to-silo-adapter
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rhiaro thanks
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snarfed there's also https://brid.gy/about#ignore-formatting
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rhiaro This isn't a priority, or wasn't until I accidentally turned on full auto-posse when I fixed the twitter likes/retweets possse
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snarfed nod
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rhiaro now I'm trying to decide whether I fix it or ignore it and my twitter followers can suffer
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rhiaro but I didn't actually posse everything before, and now I'm thinking twice about posting again
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aaronpk i'm definitely a fan of not POSSEing everything
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message on 11/20 at 12:49pm: remember how we used to have the bright orange banner at the top of IndieWebCamp.com when there was an imminent upcoming IndieWebCamp (e.g. "IndieWebCamp 2015: July 11-12 in Portland, Oregon and Brighton, UK!"), could you flip that on for IWC SF? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-20/line/1448052538602
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snarfed me too
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rhiaro I need to at least make it so the syndicate button in quill works I guess
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[snarfed] good post on not always posseing: http://werd.io/2015/publish-on-your-own-site-reflect-inwardly
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[snarfed] (and obligatory, https://snarfed.org/2015-05-05_publish-on-your-own-site-reflect-inwardly )
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kevinmarks https://ma.tt/2015/11/cool-uses-of-wp-api/
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kevinmarks and more signiicantly, a whole new fronetend and api for wordpress.com http://ma.tt/2015/11/dance-to-calypso/
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kevinmarks anyone looked at it yet?
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[snarfed] interesting!
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[snarfed] the REST API has been around for a while, but the UI is new to me
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kevinmarks they just open sourced it all
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kevinmarks apparently more endpoints https://wordpress.org/plugins/rest-api/
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[snarfed] ah
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[snarfed] i wonder if this is https://snarfed.org/2014-03-08_8291
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[snarfed] JS at least, if not node
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kevinmarks yes, node and react
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[snarfed] funny, i actually heard that rumor at the last iwc sf
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kevinmarks so they went full js;dr https://github.com/Automattic/wp-calypso/blob/master/server/pages/index.jade
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tantek What is Calypso?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Calypso" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/107Y
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kevinmarks Calypso is the javascript-based rewrite of [[wordpress]] open sourced at https://github.com/Automattic/wp-calypso [https://developer.wordpress.com/calypso/ described here]
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loqi.me created /Calypso (+198) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-23/line/1448301109522 and dfn added by kevinmarks" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek kevinmarks: is it really fully js;dr?
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tantek as in, use Calypso - don't bother with showing up in search results?
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kevinmarks no, the wp site is still PHP; calypso is the UI
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kevinmarks what is Calypso
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/Calypso
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snarfed interesting. they say they started on 20mos ago, and iwc sf was >18mos ago, so props to whoever mentioned it then
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kevinmarks.com edited /Calypso (+20) (view diff)
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kevinmarks what is Calypso
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Loqi Calypso is the javascript-based rewrite of the wordpress front-end https://indiewebcamp.com/Calypso
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cleverdevil basically, its a frontend that points to a series of REST APIs both in WP core and in the Jetpack plugin
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cleverdevil for now, it appears you'll have to have Jetpack installed in your self-hosted WP instance in order to use Calypso.
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aaronpk front-end as in the editor for it?
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cleverdevil a UI for creating/editing content, and managing sites, yes.
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aaronpk but not the actual rendered blog right?
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cleverdevil they do say, on one of the (many) calypso sites - "We're excited about the REST scaffolding going in WordPress 4.4, but the endpoints in the latest version don't cover a huge part of what we're doing. Automattic contributors to core have been heavily involved in the core API work so far, and we expect that to continue and increase in 2016, hopefully completely harmonizing the different APIs in one of the core releases next year."
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cleverdevil in response to the question "Will you be using the WordPress core REST API in the future?"
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cleverdevil aaronpk: correct≥
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cleverdevil basically, they're splitting WordPress into two parts: the "core" PHP engine, which is essentially the guts of the WordPress CMS
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cleverdevil and the UI for managing content
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aaronpk interesting. seems like that UI might be able to manage content on non-wordpress sites too then?
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cleverdevil provided that those sites support the same APIs, I would assume so.
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tantek does the API between Calypso and the WordPress PHP backend require sending username/password? Or does it use OAuth to authenticate the front-end?
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snarfed definitely interesting...and thank god it's not the render path. i would be pissed if wp core went js;dr for rendering.
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aaronpk jeez it'd better not be doing password auth still
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tantek aaronpk - how could it not? assuming that was the path of least resistance.
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tantek alternatively it could be doing wordpress.com-auth, becoming another silo identity provider
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cleverdevil https://github.com/Automattic/wp-calypso/blob/master/client/auth/controller.js
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cleverdevil OAuth
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cleverdevil at least, that's what it appears to be from my casual digging.
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cleverdevil and, yes, via WP.com I am almost positive.
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tantek OAuth against what service?
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aaronpk https://developer.wordpress.com/docs/oauth2/
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cleverdevil https://github.com/Automattic/wp-calypso/blob/master/client/auth/login.jsx
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aaronpk oauth against the wordpress.com service apparently
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cleverdevil wordpress.com
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tantek does that mean that all WordPress installs require signing-in with a Wordpress.com account?
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gRegorLove So you have to have a wordpress.com account even for self-hosted WP?
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gRegorLove Pseudo-jinx
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snarfed let's not get ahead of ourselves. i doubt that's true.
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tantek fetches the popcorn
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cleverdevil I think that actually is true, if you want to use Calypso for now.
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aaronpk hm there's a password box in that login.jsx page
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gRegorLove Maybe it does pw auth if it's local
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aaronpk regardless, the API does not appear to use HTTP basic auth
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aaronpk so at least teh API calls are using OAuth tokens
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snarfed they've been pretty clearly that self hosted wp shouldn't require wp.com, jetpack, etc. so calypso could require it if calypso itself is optional, but otherwise doubtful
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tantek sure, OAuth'd to what service though? something has to log you in via https and then hand out the OAuth tokens
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aaronpk "If you run your own self-hosted WordPress site, you can install the Jetpack plugin to use the Calypso-based editing and management tools. Your site will be ready to go once you log in to WordPress.com or download the Mac desktop app."
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snarfed right, optional
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aaronpk i think it does require a wordpress.com account for using it with self-hosted sites!
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snarfed yes. i mean calypso is optional.
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tantek Calypso is optional, but itself requires using a wordpress.com account?
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snarfed just like jetpack
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gRegorLove Oh, I didn't realize Jetpack requires a wp.com account
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aaronpk tantek: yes that appears to be the case
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cleverdevil yep.
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aaronpk I don't even know what jetpack is
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gRegorLove is that for akismet or?
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cleverdevil over time, I would guess that they'll migrate their Jetpack APIs into WP core.
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gRegorLove What is Jetpack?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Jetpack" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/107Z
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snarfed sorry, gRegorLove is right, jetpack strongly wants but doesn't require a wp.com account
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tantek seems like a natural fit to upgrade Calypso to use IndieAuth instead, and add WordPress.com as yet-another-IndieAuth provider
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cleverdevil and then, potentially Calypso will be usable without WP.com
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bengo (in the indieweb of microservices, should everyone have a personal Authorization server that is complementary to their personal www site? I think so, even if it delegates authentication to something like indieauth or wp.com or webid or something)
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snarfed yup. self hosted wp auth is very configurable. there are good plugins that make it provide/consume openid, add 2fa, etc
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tantek such a pull request will test how "open sourcey" "they" want Calypso to be
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gRegorLove Jetpack is https://wordpress.org/plugins/jetpack/
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loqi.me created /Jetpack (+76) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-23/line/1448302098798 and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk bengo: I agree
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aaronpk except you should have said "delegates to something like indieauth.com" instead of "indieauth" since indieauth is the protocol and indieauth.com is the service
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tantek well except for webid, I agree, since keygen is dead, and browser client certs are getting ripped out for security reasons
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bengo aaronpk nice got it
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gRegorLove I thought Jetpack also allowed syndication to Twitter, FB, etc.
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snarfed aaronpk: you *know* people will never automatically grok that distinction :P
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bengo I kinda wanna make a nicely packaged version of pyoidc that is 'myoidc' :)
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snarfed (i'm with you! but still. amusing.)
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aaronpk that was my fault for naming indieauth.com that
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snarfed eh i don't know that it's a big problem
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tantek snarfed, he has to explain it every time - I've seen it happen over and over ;)
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aaronpk it is
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aaronpk wonders if it's not too late to rename indieauth.com
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snarfed maybe a problem for developers, but probably not for users
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aaronpk the problem for users is that it muddles what's actually happening and who's responsible for what
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tantek aaronpk - it's fine, it works, no need for another name to make it even more complicated to the 99% of people who just want it to work
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snarfed tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 260 karma
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snarfed gRegorLove: it does, among other features. http://jetpack.me/support/publicize/
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gRegorLove Ah, Jetpack does have "Publicize" tools for syndication. Just not in the core features listed.
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tantek aaronpk: you're just disproportionately feeling the pain/awkwardness of the 1% that ask the hard questions.
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gRegorLove is a second behind everyone today :)
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aaronpk i suppose
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aaronpk well the easy thing is to not change anything
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snarfed change--
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tantek as long as you have a good FAQ (diagram even) to point that 1% to - that's easier than adding a name and making it more complicated for everyone
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Loqi change has -1 karma
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snarfed change++
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tantek gives Loqi spare change
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Loqi grins profusely
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gregorlove.com edited /Jetpack (+222) (view diff)
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gRegorLove snarfed: Does this need to be updated? Does it no longer require wp.com login? https://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress#Jetpack_Requires_Login
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snarfed gRegorLove: i believe it doesn't but not 100% sure
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gRegorLove Looks like it does. "Why do I need a WordPress.com account? Many of our core features (like Photon, Stats, and Protect) make use of the WordPress.com cloud. For this to happen Jetpack requires a (free) WordPress.com account. If you don't have one already you can easily create one during Jetpack's connection process." https://wordpress.org/plugins/jetpack/faq/
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gregorlove.com edited /WordPress (+4) "/* Jetpack Requires Login */ linkify" (view diff)
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snarfed not clear that means it always requires it
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snarfed instead of just for those features
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gregorlove.com edited /Jetpack (+21) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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snarfed ...but yes after investigating it looks like it does fully require wp.com. ah well.
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snarfed gRegorLove++ for nudging
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Loqi gRegorLove has 41 karma
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tantek seems like there's a bit of a cold war of identity hosting/ownership going on
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tantek FB vs Tw vs G vs Apple vs WPcom now
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loqi.me created /visitor_stats (+22) "prompted by gRegorLove and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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aaronpk i'd give WP the benefit of the doubt on this and say it's more of a technical reason than an ownership reason
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tantek hence why I suggested a pull request to replace the WPcom auth dependency with an IndieAuth one and see if that gets accepted.
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tantek If it's more of a technical reason, technical it's better to use IndieAuth (user choice)
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tantek and it should be accepted
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tantek If it's rejected, the "ownership reason" becomes more likely to be the explanation
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snarfed first step would probably be a wp *plugin* that uses indieauth for login
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aaronpk that exists
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snarfed great!
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snarfed calypso itself probably needs more research first, e.g. i expect they actually use wp.com service features, not just auth
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gRegorLove I'm sure it uses at least Akismet
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aaronpk yeah I suspect the technical reason is not just because the actual authenticaiton is simpler, but it also makes a bunch of other things simpler
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snarfed gRegorLove: should be orthogonal, right?
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gRegorLove Akismet requires a wp.com auth, I thought
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snarfed yes. but calypso probably wouldn't depend on akismet.
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@jgmac1106 Can anyone tell me why I can't get the @medium font awesome icon to display? #indieweb https://twitter.com/jgmac1106/status/668863898091716608/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/668863898091716608)
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kevinmarks hm, if all @ replies on twitter get sent to my micropub endpoint, my homepage is going to get very long
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kevinmarks interesting, my SERP now is no longer someon saying 'kevin marks was…" in the comments, but is the summary of my top post
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kevinmarks no, weirdly the summary of my 2nd from top post
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cleverdevil I'd be even more curious to see Known implement the server-side APIs required to support Calypso as a frontend :)
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rhiaro Hey everybody! This is a call for you to add yourself to indiewebcamp.com/mentions if you have a page displaying your mentions/replies/etc. If you have a private one/behind auth just for yourself, also note that
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rhiaro I know people were debate what to call 'mentions' sometimes and I can never remember all the alternatives
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rhiaro so if there's another wiki page with a similar list, can you point me?
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[snarfed] kevinmarks: you mean the new bridgy feature? definitely not. we try to limit to explicit mentions.
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/523#issuecomment-158584336
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kevinmarks ah, i see, neat
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kevinmarks though thta means it may get the tail ends of twitter bickers where you gte cc'd in
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kevinmarks eg https://twitter.com/rachsyme/status/668068946524962816
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@rachsyme @atotalmonet @kevinmarks 😎 (twitter.com/_/status/668068946524962816)
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kevinmarks or https://twitter.com/zaksoup/status/668330405787889664
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@zaksoup @firasd @kevinmarks @girlziplocked if Bitcoin is the index fund then the sector is undervalued by at least a factor of 10. (twitter.com/_/status/668330405787889664)
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kevinmarks we'll see - as you say I'm a good testcase
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snarfed kevinmarks++ definitely! i put a bit of thought into the logic, so i'm definitely curious to see
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snarfed and yeah, right now it intentionally sends wms when you get cc'ed into a thread. we can change that if it feels wrong.
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aaronpk kevinmarks: do you display your home page mentions on your home page?
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Loqi kevinmarks has 181 karma
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aaronpk cause I certainly don't
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snarfed he does
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aaronpk interesting. yeah I definitely would want that to be on some other page
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kevinmarks I do, with the JS thing
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kevinmarks it does mean I get some noise, yes
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tantek "some" ;)
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gRegorLove Oh hello Bridgy homepage mentions.
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snarfed gRegorLove: you're welcome and sorry
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gRegorLove Hahah
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voxpelli kevinmarks: give me a shout or add an issue on the project if you start feeling the need for some pagination – you will probably be the first one ;)
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gRegorLove snarfed: So this is for anytime someone posts on my wall, regardless of privacy setting?
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gRegorLove (FB specifically)
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snarfed gRegorLove: only twitter right now. non-reply @-mentions. details in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/523#issuecomment-158584336
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snarfed other silo APIs don't support it
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gRegorLove Hm. I'm getting ones from FB wall comments.
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gRegorLove And from 2013. That's what caught my attention first. Heh
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gRegorLove https://brid-gy.appspot.com/post/facebook/27301982/10100833139693444
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tantek :( https://twitter.com/netmag/status/668870554527625217 pours one out for Font Deck
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@netmag Shock closure for popular web font service @fontdeck: http://www.creativebloq.com/web-design/shock-closure-popular-web-font-service-111517963 [photo] (twitter.com/_/status/668870554527625217)
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tantek what was Fontdeck?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Fontdeck" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/107i
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tantek Fontdeck was a webfont serving service that has stopped accepting new accounts, and will stop serving fonts on 2016-12-01. [http://blog.fontdeck.com/post/133794978966/why-fontdeck-is-retiring][http://www.creativebloq.com/web-design/shock-closure-popular-web-font-service-111517963] See also: [[site-deaths]].
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loqi.me created /Fontdeck (+335) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-23/line/1448306761181 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk apologies in advance if i break the wiki
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aaronpk *whew* it survived
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GWG Afternoon
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tantek.com edited /h-entry (+1619) "move why to top, expand for publish/consume, expand how to for publish / consume, indieweb examples, requests" (view diff)
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GWG I see Wordpress has been busy
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gRegorLove snarfed: Just in case you missed it, seems I'm getting Bridgy wm for general FB mentions, from 2013: https://brid-gy.appspot.com/post/facebook/27301982/10100833139693444
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GWG The REST API has long been suggested as a means to make Wordpress a backend engine with many options for front-end and administration
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snarfed gRegorLove: yeah, sorry, thanks for the nudge. will look. had those posts never been backfed to you before?
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snarfed funny unintended feature, and a bit different since those are wall posts but not mentions. interesting.
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snarfed hey gRegorLove that one fb post you linked, is it public? i can't see it
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gRegorLove No, it's friends-only. Which I also thought was odd that Bridgy sent it.
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tantek welcome andicascadesf! how we can we help you with your personal site? :)
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snarfed gRegorLove: yeah that's not good. definitely a bug.
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andicascadesf Hi everyone. Where can I find pictures from other IWC Hack Day events?
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gRegorLove There's a couple others. I can make a gh issue, snarfed
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andicascadesf or just photos from past events?
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snarfed either way
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andicascadesf @tantek I’m working on the event page right now. :-)
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tantek andicascadesf: what is IWC?
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Loqi IndieWebCamps are brainstorming and building events where IndieWeb creators gather semi-regularly to meet in person, share ideas, and collaborate on IndieWeb design, UX, & code for their own sites http://indiewebcamp.com/IWC
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andicascadesf IndieWebCamp
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andicascadesf haha okay, I get it.
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andicascadesf woohoo! flickr
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tantek basically if you have a question about something, like IWC, you can usually just ask "what is" to get the overview of it and likely the answers you're looking for
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aaronpk tantek: as requested, top banner is updated with the next indiewebcamp!
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tantek aaronpk++ thanks!
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andicascadesf awesome!
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Loqi aaronpk has 9 karma
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tantek aaronpk, we should maybe do that like a month before every IndieWebCamp? What do you think?
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aaronpk one step ahead of you :)
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aaronpk it will automatically update with the info on /next-iwc
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gRegorLove snarfed: Filed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/559
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snarfed thanks!
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aaronpk using the wiki as an api for updating the wiki O.o
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tantek whoa
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aaronpk I should probably do that with the IRC topic too
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aaronpk I could pretty easily make it always update to the next event on http://indiewebcamp.com/events
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Loqi yea
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voxpelli wants a Micropub / Indieweb SDK one can point iOS app developer at for them to add it as a share option
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aaronpk ooh good call
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aaronpk i want that
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voxpelli eg. used http://quotle.co/ today to OCR a quote from a book and post – would have loved to have shared that to my blog
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voxpelli same with http://pragmaticcode.com/linky/, would be a nice way to post links to ones blog
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aaronpk wait why does that have to be an SDK that the app uses? the whole point of the new iOS share stuff is so apps can delegate that to the system
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voxpelli well, that's only for simple shares + it requires at least two-three taps per publish rather than just having it as a maybe default on share option in the posting ui
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voxpelli hard to argue with those independent app creators today that they should learn indieauth, micropub etc – too much effort for too little gain for them
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aaronpk I think the in-app share buttons are an artifact from before iOS had system sharing
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aaronpk but yeah app developers want an SDK they can drop in, not an API. you see that with APIs like facebook too.
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aaronpk the app developers don't want to use the facebook API, they just want to drop in the SDK and use it
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voxpelli I think these are useful for default PESOS options https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/FcsMUkYY/1448309137.JPG
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voxpelli that one is a bit interesting because it seems to make sharing within its own silo optional
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aaronpk interesting
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aaronpk oh and presumably people post to multiple of these?
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aaronpk that makes the system sharing less useful
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voxpelli yes
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voxpelli that's why eg. http://pragmaticcode.com/linky/ is used by some social media people rather than just doing multiple individual sharings – that + some better options
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aaronpk i still want to make myself an iOS micropub app that is a share target. when I do that I'll make the indieauth part its own library
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voxpelli cool
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gRegorLove Is "share" a preferred term to "repost" or "retweet"? Noticed Bridgy is using "shared" now.
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tantek gRegorLove: where is Bridgy using the term "shared"?
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tantek I think FB popularized share=repost
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gRegorLove A retweet: https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/gRegorLove/668869987688321024/668878590914662400
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voxpelli "shared" sounds better than "reposted" :)
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gRegorLove I don't have a strong preference, was just curious.
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tantek voxpelli: except "shared" has now come to mean anything
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gRegorLove Though "reblogged" is pretty well established on tumblr. "repost" usually makes me think of that.
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tantek what is share?
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Loqi share is a watered down verb that's used on the "social web" (and other platforms like Google's Android) to mean pretty much any action https://indiewebcamp.com/share
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voxpelli tantek: yeah, eg. the share sheet has become a trigger of all social actions
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tantek there you go. specifics in the page
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tantek what is a share sheet?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "share sheet" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/107j
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gRegorLove "share" makes me think of the share icons; someone read something on a site, clicked a "Tweet this" icon, and shared it on twitter.
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tantek voxpelli: could you add that page and upload a screenshot?
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@xtof_fr .@_Kitetoa_ : Ciel ! Facebook m'a censuré ! Quelle honte #Oupas > https://reflets.info/ciel-facebook-ma-censure-quelle-honte-oupas/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/668886368467091456)
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tantek basically, if you want vagueness in your UI, or you're not sure what to call an action, call it "share", because that's what (nearly) everyone else does when they don't have a precise name for something
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tantek if you want to communicate more precisely pick a more specific term, e.g. repost for reposts.
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voxpelli I'll add something
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voxpelli In a sentence I think I would prefer using "shared" over "reposted" often – "repost" feels a bit technical
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tantek Tumblr uses reblogged
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tantek Twitter uses retweeted
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aaronpk which came first?
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kodfabrik.se uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:ios-share-sheet.jpeg]]""
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tantek Tumblr
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tantek pretty sure reblogging predates Tumblr as well - but I don't have a citation offhand
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@kevinmarks @tomstandage @TheEconomist can you just delete all the javascript form your site first? IF you want #indieweb advice, happy to consult. (twitter.com/_/status/668888524972670977)
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@pierreozoux RT @xtof_fr: .@_Kitetoa_ : Ciel ! Facebook m'a censuré ! Quelle honte #Oupas > https://reflets.info/ciel-facebook-ma-censure-quelle-honte-oupas/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/668888951638372352)
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@IndieHosters RT @xtof_fr: .@_Kitetoa_ : Ciel ! Facebook m'a censuré ! Quelle honte #Oupas > https://reflets.info/ciel-facebook-ma-censure-quelle-honte-oupas/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/668888951646765057)
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bear reblogging reminds me of usenet cross posting
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gRegorLove Interesting. h-as-share in the bridgy mf2 as well. Is "share" an AS thing?
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ben_thatmustbeme "AS" was activity-streams prefix
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ben_thatmustbeme basically being dropped everywhere
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kodfabrik.se created /share_sheet (+616) "Created page with "{{stub}} [[File:ios-share-sheet.jpeg|200px|thumb|right|iOS 9 Share Sheet on iPhone 6]] A '''<dfn>Share Sheet</dfn>''' is a sharing dialog listing many different sharing options..."" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme was in the AS2 working draft but has since been removed
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snarfed it's in AS1 too
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snarfed http://activitystrea.ms/specs/json/schema/activity-schema.html#verbs
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voxpelli !tell tantek Wikipedia has references for "tumbleblogs" that predates Tumblr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microblogging#Services
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed: sure the verb is there, but i'm talking about the "h-as-" microformat
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ben_thatmustbeme that was in the microformats examples in AS2
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snarfed ah ok. we may have made it up.
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ben_thatmustbeme no, i believe tantek was cited as having suggested that at one point
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ben_thatmustbeme and later regretted it since -as- is a terrible prefix
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ben_thatmustbeme very misleading
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gRegorLove I meant the 'share' verb. I'm familiar with the h-as* history
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bear ouch - status.slack.com is coughing up what looks to be mysql connect errors
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, slack cut out for a while there
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ben_thatmustbeme its back up, but they are having issues today
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bear it's sporadic, only me and the bots are active in our work slack
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rhiaro Share has been removed from AS2
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rhiaro but it used to be an Activity type
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rhiaro gRegorLove ^
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ben_thatmustbeme bear, yeah its started dropping out on me again
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kevinmarks they said connectivity rather than backend
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singpolyma.net edited /Vouch (+74) "/* FAQ */ 403?" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme i just call everything connectivity problems No power? oh its lacking power system connectivity :P
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tantek.com edited /Vouch (+677) "/* Why not HTTP 403 */ quick answer via digging into specific meanings in practice of 403" (view diff)
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tantek gives Loqi a nudge.
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tantek Thank you Loqi.
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Loqi tantek: voxpelli left you a message 39 minutes ago: Wikipedia has references for "tumbleblogs" that predates Tumblr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microblogging#Services http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-23/line/1448311111947
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Loqi yeah!
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Loqi thanks, tantek!
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.3 I was already writing up a response though, adding it after that
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /Vouch (+1050) "/* Why not HTTP 403 */ alternative reason why not 403" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme though the common usage is for authentication, it says it may be rejected for another reason
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: isn't 401 the one that is commonly used with authentication?
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ben_thatmustbeme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_403#Difference_from_status_.22401_Unauthorized.22
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ben_thatmustbeme to put it in a different sense.... 401 = incorrect password, 403 = user doesn't have permissions
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singpolyma << 403 implies that the server will not take any action >> I disagree. as in the quoted part of the spec <<the server understood
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singpolyma the request but refuses to authorize it>>
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Loqi singpolyma: snarfed left you a message on 11/20 at 2:53pm: you should both talk! http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag#Plain_text_authoring vs https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/527 :P http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-20/line/1448060002454
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: true
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singpolyma notably "understood the request"
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Loqi singpolyma: snarfed left you a message 22 hours, 21 minutes ago: curious what you think of https://kylewm.com/2015/11/silo-pub-as-a-generic-micropub-to-silo-adapter ...? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-22/line/1448233857209
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ben_thatmustbeme singpolyma: i read that as refuses to take action sorry, but again "authorize" vouch is not about authorization
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singpolyma sure. I could see riding that technicality as valid :)
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tantek it's not a technicality - it's what 403 is used for in practice - authorization
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tantek really don't want to do anything confusing / misleaing with respect to "authorization"
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tantek there's already enough confusion about authorization, and for that matter authentication, and neither of which is Vouch about
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singpolyma sure. not here to argue about it :)
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kylewm gRegorLove: this may already be resolved, but bridgy used to have h-as-repost but I (sort of unilaterally) changed it recently to h-as-share since "repost" wasn't in AS1
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voxpelli I think 403 makes sense for the case of unaccepted source / vouch – makes it clear that it's not anything about the format of the reuqest that isn't accept but rather the actual content
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voxpelli a 403 points in a better direction in regards to debugging than a 400 does I think
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loqi.me created /iCloud (+156) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek voxpelli: at what point in the flow chart?
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tantek that was part of the problem of the original FAQ - it made no sense anywhyere
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tantek if you have a specific proposal, make it in reference to the existing algorithm / flowchart
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voxpelli tantek: "approve vouch?" and "does vouch link to source's domain?"
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aaronpk i thought the difference was whether or not the person should try again, e.g. they entered the wrong password
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tantek aaronpk: yeah that makes more sense
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tantek I'd hate to convey even a hint of a meaning that a vouch is a password
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tantek which I think 403 does
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aaronpk 403 "Authorization will not help and the request SHOULD NOT be repeated"
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aaronpk 401 "The client MAY repeat the request with a suitable Authorization header field"
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snarfed heh ok
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voxpelli a 401 would convey that the password is wrong, a 403 conveys that the permission of the requester to perform the action has for some reason been denied
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: 403, SHOULD NOT be repeated with the SAME data
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tantek voxpelli: per the cited wikipedia reference, 403 is more specific than that
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ben_thatmustbeme err, same auth data
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: that's not what's on http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec10.html
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh, i'm looking at http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.3
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voxpelli this is the current spec: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.3
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tantek voxpelli: and I'm talking about current practice of using said current spec, which trumps spec theory
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aaronpk ah yes but that is also implying that the credentials were validated at that point
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tantek taking lots of frustrating Apple service failure screenshots at this point
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ben_thatmustbeme its the "However, a request might be forbidden for reasons unrelated to the credentials." that says 403 COULD be one way to do it
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ben_thatmustbeme but again in practice it is not used that way
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voxpelli 403 is eg. used for rate limits as well – we did at Flattr and GeitHub
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voxpelli s/GeitHub/eg. GitHub/
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Loqi voxpelli meant to say: 403 is eg. used for rate limits as well – we did at Flattr and eg. GitHub
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tantek voxpelli: there's a more specific error code for rate limits now
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tantek what is 420
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "420" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/107m
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aaronpk lol i thought it was 429
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tantek what is 429?
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli: all the more reason not to use it, that would be a great use for 403, rate limiting on your WM endpoint
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "429" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/107n
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: well, right now allmost all errors in Vouch uses 400 so to have two errors both use 403 wouldn't be that bad – after all, detail error information should be delivered in addition to HTTP code
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tantek voxpelli: not necessarily - it's not clear if you want to provide that much information to attackers
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tantek and since vouch is specifically intended to help filter attackers, that must be a considerations
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tantek basically, attackers should be given as little information as possible in terms of why their attack failed
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tantek the days of overly precise error messages in protocols are long past - those days when everyone developing protocols assumed people were "nice" on the internet
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gRegorLove Re: Vouch, I'm hoping to finally have an implementation ready to test in the next couple of days.
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voxpelli tantek: it was in response to ben_thatmustbeme's feedback that using the same code for two things would be bad, with that thinking one should specifically avoid using a code for just that purpose
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegorLove: cool
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ben_thatmustbeme sending or receiving?
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gRegorLove Both
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aaronpk nice
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ben_thatmustbeme cool
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gRegorLove As part of the Webmention ProcessWire plugin
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ben_thatmustbeme how are you determining the vouch url?
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ben_thatmustbeme for sending? are you using the "store referer urls" as I do?
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gRegorLove Even though spam isn't an issue for webmentions yet, I wanted the plugin to at least support vouch before it's officially released.
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gRegorLove Yep
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voxpelli (eg. http://jsonapi.org/format/ also lists lots of 403 uses that are not directly linked to authentication but rather just refusals of different kind)
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tantek gRegorLove: spam is an issue for Bridgy webmentions e.g. from Twitter
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voxpelli a 400 is actually documented as "something that is perceived to be a client error" – and a denied vouch isn't really that, but I can see a reason to disguise as it
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gRegorLove True, though Bridgy's going to be a whitelisted exception, unless they start sending vouch.
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aaronpk that would be...interesting
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gRegorLove Pretty sure snarfed isn't interested in doing that anytime soon :)
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ben_thatmustbeme hah, that would be very difficult to do i think
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gRegorLove I have no idea how it could
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aaronpk that seems like a safe assumption
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ben_thatmustbeme i just assume the "twitter/fb already filter spam" on that side
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gRegorLove Even if poorly, heh
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah
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ben_thatmustbeme twitter not so much
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ben_thatmustbeme but at least its something
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gRegorLove I get more "spam follows" than spam tweets, thankfully.
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tantek and now spam @-name mentions
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gRegorLove Though with a one-character Twitter name like @t, I'm sure you get a ton.
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gRegorLove Much like a friend, @justin gets "@Justin Bieber" tweets a lot.
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tantek yes
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ben_thatmustbeme hah, the disadvantage of early adoption
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@krisshaffer @timsenior It already exists as Diaspora, GNU Social, various IndieWebCamp tools, etc. Getting people to move is the trick. (twitter.com/_/status/668913230962667521)
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@timsenior RT @krisshaffer: @timsenior It already exists as Diaspora, GNU Social, various IndieWebCamp tools, etc. Getting people to move is the trick. (twitter.com/_/status/668913425775525894)
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@bluefishblue292 RT @krisshaffer: @timsenior It already exists as Diaspora, GNU Social, various IndieWebCamp tools, etc. Getting people to move is the trick. (twitter.com/_/status/668913770152878080)
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kylewm what are we calling these @-mentions? "Front page mentions"?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "we calling these @-mentions" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/107o
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kylewm ah person mention
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tantek or homepage mention
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tantek profile mention if you want to be silo-esque about it
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kylewm.com created /homepage_mention (+28) "Redirected page to [[person mention]]" (view diff)
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kevinmarks thinking about passwordless email auth
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kevinmarks effectively just provide the password reset path where you get sent a link that logs you in
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sparverius slack has a pretty slick implementation of it
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voxpelli Medium uses that for their non-silo based auth
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sparverius for mobile only... i think twitter will do it as well
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kevinmarks yes, except that they also have a password login which triggers wrong autocompletes
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voxpelli kylewm: perhaps link that together with https://indiewebcamp.com/mentions somehow?
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /person_mention (+49) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ have displayed mentions of my homepage for a long time, no idea how long" (view diff)
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: perhaps add yourself to the /mentions as well as the rest have listed themselves tehre?
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aaronpk is slack the one that calls it a "magic login link"?
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ben_thatmustbeme but i don't voxpelli
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ben_thatmustbeme i store that but i don't list mentions to POSTs
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ben_thatmustbeme at least not at the moment
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ben_thatmustbeme it used to be in the "recent mentions" feed, but now that is only homepage mentions
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ben_thatmustbeme at least i don't think i display them... i do so many things i forget i do
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: the /mentions is for such homepage mentions?
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ben_thatmustbeme "IndieWeb examples displaying mentions to posts"
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voxpelli or maybe I'm forgetting something
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ben_thatmustbeme /person_mention it mentions to homepage
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ben_thatmustbeme s/it/is/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: /person_mention is mentions to homepage
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: well, /mentions refers to both post mentions and homepage mentions – but mostly for having a separate page for mentions I guess now when I reread so you don't fit that
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voxpelli but that means me, rhiaro and aaronpk should add ourselves to the /person_mention
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ben_thatmustbeme ACK
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ben_thatmustbeme there is a /mention and /mentions
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ben_thatmustbeme theres the confusion
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ben_thatmustbeme should move the content on /mentions to /person_mentions and redirect /mentions to /mention
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ben_thatmustbeme i would suggest
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voxpelli sounds like a plan
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ben_thatmustbeme though i see, /mentions is supposed to contain them both
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ben_thatmustbeme ehh, confusing
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aaronpk /mentions is supposed to be a disambiguation page i think
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aaronpk maybe jhust move the examples to person mentions?
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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ben_thatmustbeme and link /mentions to /person_mentions
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aaronpk yeah
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voxpelli one can consider a mention of a post to be a mention of a person to mimick behavior of Twitter – I guess that's what the three of us has currently done
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voxpelli when building the list that is, not in the actual presentation of each mention in that list
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@TSGtheseries TSG Trivia Fact #1 Only 1 of our leading ladies has a last name. "Alexis Freakin' Summers" #indieweb #yvrshoots #web https://twitter.com/TSGtheseries/status/668919878485692417/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/668919878485692417)
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kylewm huh, my script added @tristanbailey to the indieweb list and then i got spam from @tristanbaileyyy
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tantek wow
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kylewm (which I wouldn't have seen but for bridgy's backfeeding person mentions)
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aaronpk what script?
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kylewm scrapes irc-people and guest lists to build https://twitter.com/kylewmahan/lists/indiewebcamp
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aaronpk ah nice
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tantek I'm dropping iMessage from my /contact page because iCloud / AppleID has become so unreliable.
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@lilyzarif RT @TSGtheseries: TSG Trivia Fact #1 Only 1 of our leading ladies has a last name. "Alexis Freakin' Summers" #indieweb #yvrshoots #web http… (twitter.com/_/status/668924412247318528)
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andicascadesf @tantek just sent you a rough draft of the Hack Day copy. :-) We should get that on Eventbrite soon.
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andicascadesf I’ll be around if you need me, but going to sign off for now.
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tantek !tell andicascadesf want to go ahead and create the Eventbrite event?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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