#indiewebcamp 2016-07-01

2016-07-01 UTC
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tantek !tell benwerd,benatwork did you take any photos or do you have slides to share from your talk last night? https://sfnewtech.com/event/062916/ if so could you share them here in the channel (or add to a wiki stub like https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-06-29-sf-new-tech-indieweb ) ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk heh that also would be simplified by the people app
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tantek sounds aspirational
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aaronpk the !tell command would look up a nickname and then tell them when they talk from any of their multiple usernames
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tantek where does "the people app" collapse/combine multiple usernames?
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aaronpk Loqi actually does that already, except the user database is not public and not on a website
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Loqi who, me?
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aaronpk didn't you see when you are entering profile info it prompts for multiple nicknames?
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aaronpk that's also why shaners is listed twice here http://h-card-as-a-service.herokuapp.com/chat-people
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[shaners] aaronpk: bc it’s listing all *nicknames* alphabetically.
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aaronpk yes i wasn't asking why
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[shaners] oh duh. reading is hard.
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tantek one thing I'd like to avoid is aspirational "upcoming feature" type stuff that never ends up happening.
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tantek like: https://indiewebcamp.com/irc#Voice
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tantek I'd like to suggest keeping things in "Brainstorming" until there's actually a staged prototype
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[shaners] which part/s are you referring to, T?
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aaronpk sure, i don't know why that wasn't added as brainstorming in the first place
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tantek.com edited /IRC (+56) "move never done Voice feature to a Brainstorming section to capture it's accurate state" (view diff)
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tantek shaners, the entire "Voice" feature as I just linked to
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[shaners] I misunderstood. I thought it was in reference to my proposal.
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tantek is cleaning various things up
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Loqi [indieweb] "如何突破束缚 回归创造互联网的初衷？" http://m.cnbeta.com/view/515709.htm
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miklb IRC being wonky for me tonight. Got a notification from Slack channel of a mention, but not seeing it in logs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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tantek wonky for me too. keep losing the connection.
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[shaners] miklb: It might have been my @ channel (with no space) mention
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tantek I wonder how many false positive that person gets on Twitter
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tantek with the "@ channel" account there
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aaronpk not as many as you i bet
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miklb [shaners] yes, I just looked at the email closer.
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@kevinmarks looks like the #dwebsummit article on @FastCompany by @dangillmor and me got translated into chinese: http://m.cnbeta.com/view/515709.htm #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/748671906396655617)
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tantek.com edited /IRC (+250) "add kevinmarks irc activity as joy division graphic linked to his post as yet another cool thing re: IRC that's been done" (view diff)
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tantek is going through his numerous open IndieWeb related tabs and capturing them in various places in the overall online hypermedia that is indieweb
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veganstraightedge.com edited /People_App_Proposal (+125) "Add Feedback section" (view diff)
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[shaners] bear: Can you leave your +1 (and any other) feedback in the Feedback section that I just added, please.
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[shaners] https://indiewebcamp.com/People_App_Proposal#Feedback
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tantek.com edited /events/2016-07-13-homebrew-website-club (+0) "HWC SF venue confirmed @MozSF" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2016-07-13-homebrew-website-club (+7) "comment out LA, host is likely in SF during that week. open to another host picking up LA!" (view diff)
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tantek !tell adactio,Jeena,aaronpk Could you confirm a venue for your next HWC meetup? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-07-13-homebrew-website-club#Where
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed bridgy app engine dashboard just now: https://snarfed.org/27k.png
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snarfed google, you so crazy
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snarfed (not real, don't worry)
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tantek !tell shaners the need to confirm the existence and venue for an event is more a social/reminder problem than an App/UI problem. In our current "tool" of the individual pages, all an organizer typically has to do is remove the <!-- --> comments around their "usual" venue. Trivial for all of them. Yet nearly every Thursday I have to explicitly ask for this. I'd be asking in any system, fancy UI or not. not a UI problem. just a data point.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek !tell shaners that being said, obviously that's a minor part of all the event stuff that could be better, RSVPing, reminders, map of location etc. etc. etc.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gregorlove.com edited /h-card_as_a_service (+125) "/* Feedback */ blank link with u-email" (view diff)
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gRegorLove !tell shaners I tried to edit my h-card profile to add location and bday (mm-yyyy). Said it was updated successfully but doesn't show up on the profile or subsequent edit page.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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[shaners] gregorlove: Hmm. I’ll look into it.
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Loqi [shaners]: tantek left you a message 31 minutes ago: the need to confirm the existence and venue for an event is more a social/reminder problem than an App/UI problem. In our current "tool" of the individual pages, all an organizer typically has to do is remove the <!-- --> comments around their "usual" venue. Trivial for all of them. Yet nearly every Thursday I have to explicitly ask for this. I'd be asking in any system, fancy UI or not. not a UI problem. just a data point. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-30/line/1467333671437
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Loqi [shaners]: tantek left you a message 27 minutes ago: that being said, obviously that's a minor part of all the event stuff that could be better, RSVPing, reminders, map of location etc. etc. etc. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-30/line/1467333902745
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Loqi [shaners]: gRegorLove left you a message 13 minutes ago: I tried to edit my h-card profile to add location and bday (mm-yyyy). Said it was updated successfully but doesn't show up on the profile or subsequent edit page. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-30/line/1467334752185
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[shaners] tantek: agreed. Not all of our problems / process around events are a technical / design problems. Some are though. The ones that are fixable/improvable by software or design, we should. :+1::skin-tone-2:
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gRegorLove shaners: if it matters, I created https://h-card-as-a-service.herokuapp.com/gregorlove.com initially, before you added the scraping of h-cards. I think I tried the scraping later.
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gRegorLove Though I added my twitter url tonight and that saved
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[shaners] Nah. It’s not that. I added those fields to the form, but not the html view. Duh. On it now.
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GWG Evening
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[shaners] gRegor: fixed
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[shaners] https://h-card-as-a-service.herokuapp.com/gregorlove.com
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GWG [shaners]: I believe I owe you some brainstorming
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[shaners] ok
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gRegorLove +1 shaners. Looks like the pronouns come through in the p-name and not separate mf2
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gRegorLove Doesn't like partial birthdays. Just testing the edge cases. :)
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veganstraightedge.com edited /h-card_as_a_service (+45) "/* TODO: add button to edit form to re-fetch h-card */" (view diff)
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[shaners] gregorlove: thanks for banging on it for me
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-07-01.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week#How_to
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Loqi [indieweb] "如何突破束缚 回归创造互联网的初衷？" by 岳恒 http://www.sootoo.com/content/664595.shtml
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[shaners] aaronpk: does the newsletter have the new logo file?
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tantek heh
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tantek BTW I find it easier to add to /posts_about on the wiki than post to news.indiewebcamp. If I did something like say, add an h-entry / h-cite autogenerating template for /posts_about links to articles, could new items from that "feed" be auto-parsed/picked-up by "this week"?
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gRegorLove Duplicate photos on upcoming hwcs in /this-week preview
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gRegorLove Or is that u-featured?
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aaronpk gRegorLove: that looks like u-featured
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 14 minutes ago: Could you confirm a venue for your next HWC meetup? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-07-13-homebrew-website-club#Where http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-30/line/1467333543562
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aaronpk tantek: that's because news.indiewebcamp.com requires that you post to your own site first ;-)
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aaronpk and i'm stubborn about not making another silo
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tantek aaronpk - too many steps to post to my own site and send a webmention as compared to editing the wiki ;(
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miklb o_O
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[shaners] tantek: sounds like something to add to your personal website itches todo list :slightly_smiling_face:
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tantek shaners, it is there, and quite painfully so. :(
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aaronpk I could make /this-week pick up entries from the wiki though. we'd just need to add mf2 markup to the entries on the page.
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aaronpk tho unless we also add the date that the entry was added, it would only pick up entries *dated* this week
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aaronpk (adding an old article would not show up in the newsletter)
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colintedford Could maybe check the past week's wiki edits for new h-entrys (or whatever markup)?
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colintedford Though that might fail when someone adds wrong markup then fixes it.
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aaronpk i want to avoid writing any code that is wiki specific. that's the benefit of microformats.
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aaronpk the newsletter doesn't care whether the source of the data is a wiki or not, it just cares about parsing the microformats in the HTML
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aaronpk [shaners]: I tried updating the mailchimp template last week but it didn't work for some reason. just now I tried "pause and edit" the campaign, and then re-enabling it, so hopefully it picks up the new template now.
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aaronpk we'll find out tomorrow
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colintedford OK
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[shaners] hopefully!
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[shaners] gregorlove: Fixed the partial birthday problem https://h-card-as-a-service.herokuapp.com/veganstraightedge.com
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aaronpk any idea why it's not picking up anything for me? https://h-card-as-a-service.herokuapp.com/new?domain=aaronparecki.com
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[shaners] aaronpk: looking now
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colintedford Five tildes gives a timestamp in the wiki, which could be handy for adding "date added" to entries on /posts_about. It's not ISO 8601 format, but maybe there's a setting to change that?
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aaronpk it would also need the mf2 class around it
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aaronpk also would be pretty noisy for human reading
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colintedford Yeah.
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colintedford tantek vaguely mentioned the idea of a template -- maybe most of the noise could go there.
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aaronpk yeah that could work. either format the date added smaller/grey, or just hide it
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[shaners] aaronpk: Try again. https://h-card-as-a-service.herokuapp.com/new?utf8=✓&website=https%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com
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aaronpk there's probably a mediawiki macro to fill in the date in whatever format too
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aaronpk [shaners]: yay
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veganstraightedge.com edited /h-card_as_a_service (+35) "/* Feedback: fixed blank email (thx gRegor */" (view diff)
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colintedford Possible way to put mf2 & "date added" in w/ macros, w/ each macro including the closing bits of the one before it:
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colintedford {{date}}2016-01-01 {{author}}author name {{link}}[http://123.com/456 name] {{end}}
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colintedford (for Posts About)
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colintedford s/macro/template
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miklb yes, that's not difficult at all
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gRegorLove Mediawiki has some good date-time substitution, though we have to use <span> with it instead of <time>. I can mess around with it.
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gRegorLove e.g. {{published|2016-06-30}}
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gRegorLove reads back and sees aaronpk already said it
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colintedford Nice, I didn't know you can wrap templates around stuff like that.
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gRegorLove Yeah, it's a template parameter. https://indiewebcamp.com/Template:one-day-event uses several.
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gRegorLove aaronpk: this-week would need a dt-published in the current week?
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aaronpk yes
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tantek gRegorLove: are you familiar with the "cite" template on Wikipedia?
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gRegorLove Yeah
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aaronpk the way assembling the newsletter works is it's given a date range (last friday to this friday) and looks at a bunch of pages and pulls entries from the pages with a date within that range
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tantek we can re-use that template's syntax, and enhance it to generate h-entry + h-cite
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tantek aaronpk: yes that makes sense
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tantek also a good way to prevent false positives from random page edits
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gRegorLove Good idea. Wikipedia has "accessdate" distinct from published date
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gRegorLove I'm wondering about confusion between when we published the h-entry vs when the article was published.
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gRegorLove We can display "Published YYYY-MM-DD" sans mf2, then "Accessed: YYYY-MM-DD" with dt-published mf2.
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gRegorLove Or "Added"
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colintedford aaronpk mentioned above we could hide or de-emphasize the "accessed" date
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colintedford which should be automatically generated anyway
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colintedford Most people reading the page won't want that info
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gRegorLove Yeah, I was getting caught up on trying to mf2 both dates, but don't have to.
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colintedford Yeah, no need
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colintedford If you really wanted to, I guess you'd treat it like a repost
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colintedford (or a bookmark, which is what thye are, except those don't usually show the date of the original)
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colintedford s/thye/they
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Loqi colintedford meant to say: (or a bookmark, which is what they are, except those don't usually show the date of the original)
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tantek gRegorLove: h-cite clarifies that. dt-published is when the article itself was published
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colintedford what he said
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tantek so either we can make them just a set of h-cite objects (simplest)
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tantek OR if you want any generic h-feed reader to parse them, we can wrap each h-cite in an h-entry u-bookmark-of h-cite
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gRegorLove tantek: Yeah, but then they won't show up in /thiss-week, unless we post things the same week they are published.
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tantek gRegorLove: correct - it strongly encourages prompt posting!
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tantek (which I think is ok)
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aaronpk sometimes we just don't find things until later, and i wouldn't want to not be able to include those
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gRegorLove I prefer current IndieNews over that, then.
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aaronpk especially videos/presentations
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tantek as aaronpk points out, if you really want to push something "old" to /this-week, you can bookmark it to news.indiewebcamp
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tantek gRegorLove: I don't understand your "prefer ... then" as that seems to imply either or, whereas this is about having both
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gRegorLove I mean I'm less likely to take the time to add it to the wiki with a special template than just bookmarking + IndieNews
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gRegorLove Otherwise I have to mentally process "was this published in time to be caught by this-week?"
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gRegorLove Template's still worthwhile if it helps people post to those wiki pages more easily, though.
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aaronpk that seems like a fine compromise. old posts on "posts about" don't go in the newsletter, and if you want it to, post it to indienews.
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aaronpk i'm pro-mediawiki template in general, cause it means it's easier to add mf2 to pages without making people write out all the html
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gRegorLove Aye
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gRegorLove tantek: I added the next couple HWCs to events. Wasn't sure if I should list all locations or not. Can you double check so whatever's appropriate goes out in this-week?
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gRegorLove I'm leaving late tonight and will be out tomorrow
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Loqi [indieweb] "Liked this tweet: Kevin Marks on Twitter: &#8220;looks like the #dwebsummit article on @FastCompany by @dangillmor and me got translated into chinese: https://t.co/PQWrpkyQ3U #indieweb&#8221;" by Scott Kingery http://techlifeweb.com/14526-2/
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tantek gRegorLove: much thanks and will do!
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tantek gRegorLove: I keep wondering what would be a good "indieweb-thinking" event creation flow for group events like this
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tantek POSSE to mediawiki?
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tantek indie event -> POSSE to -> both indiewebcamp.com event wiki page and FB
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tantek just thinking out loud
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aaronpk hopes his photo and note posting workflow is smooth enough to use it a lot this weekend while biking and camping
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tantek really needs to improve his posting interface
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tantek has too many manual steps :/
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pfefferle good morning
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[kevinmarks] Homework for this weekend is implementing micropub, at least to catch up with silo.pub mapping to twitter
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jeena.net edited /events/2016-06-29-homebrew-website-club (-14) "/* Where */ Göteborg" (view diff)
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jeena.net edited /events/2016-06-29-homebrew-website-club (+13) "/* Göteborg */" (view diff)
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jeena.net uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:hwc-got-2016-05-29.jpeg]]""
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jeena.net edited /events/2016-06-29-homebrew-website-club (+59) "/* Gothenburg */ added picture" (view diff)
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petermolnar are you using domain privacy on your domains, people?
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cweiske what is domain privacy?
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Loqi Domain privacy refers to privacy concerns around the contact information that is publicly available with each domain name registration https://indiewebcamp.com/domain_privacy
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cweiske no, I don't
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petermolnar right now I have only .hu and .eu domains and those are private by default
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petermolnar but I'm looking at .net and .com domains
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petermolnar and those aren't
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voxpelli I haven't done anything proactively there
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colintedford On my main one yes, but my short one is .us which doesn't allow it :/
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miklb my registrar namecheap offers 1st year of a whois guard and minimal cost after that, but extent of any protection
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petermolnar doesn't allow it? wow. that is in high contrast with .eu, private by default
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colintedford point goes to europe, for sure
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cweiske for .de domains, the DENIC does not hand out owner data via WHOIS
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cweiske you have to go to denic.de and enter a captcha to get the owner data
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miklb I think whois guard even hides personal info from a that
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petermolnar cweiske same for .hu
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petermolnar anyway, we realized .eu is not the best domain for a photographer portfolio - for business - at the moment in the UK, that's why I had to look for .com
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cweiske :)
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GWG Morning
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voxpelli Morning
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GWG Hello voxpelli
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@garethjordan @garethjordan test reply to see if #indieweb settings and plug ins are working (twitter.com/_/status/748842341658689536)
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pfefferle GWG good morning
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GWG pfefferle, just commented on your comment.
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pfefferle GWG me too...
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pfefferle GWG you have used POST for Vouch and CSRF
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GWG pfefferle, I realized that when you mentioned it.
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pfefferle GWG no problem, only wanted to let you know why I removed them for now
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GWG I'll wait for the future to future proof
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pfefferle GWG are you sure they will implement something like preprocess_comment for the edit function?
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GWG pfefferle, they asked why. But in the interim, the Webmentions plugin can.
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pfefferle GWG ah ok, I see...
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GWG Pingbacks and Trackbacks don't support updates anyway
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pfefferle GWG sounds good to me
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pfefferle GWG so for the SL plugin, we will use preprocess_comments and a Webmention one for the update
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pfefferle GWG and change that if the update will also get his filter
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GWG pfefferle, that was what I tested in my experiments.
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pfefferle GWG my brain is too slow for your thoughts... sorry ;)
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GWG pfefferle, I thought about this for months
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pfefferle GWG as I said :) ... way to fast ;)
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GWG Once it is done it will be great
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cweiske.de edited /site-deaths (+524) "/* 2015 */ lumia storyteller" (view diff)
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GWG I am sorry though.... pfefferle, my response to merges is more PRs
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pfefferle GWG PRs?
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GWG pfefferle: Pull Requests
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pfefferle GWG :)
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GWG I had a lot of time to plan what I think would improve the Webmentions and Semantic Linkbacks plugins.
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GWG I still hope for greater adoption.
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GWG I wonder if we can ever get it into Core.
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GWG Nowhere near ready for that though.
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@martinlindner @rgruhn ja, eh. aber indieweb & kooperative bottom-up organisation sind imho gerade in unübersichtlichen zeiten wichtig. (twitter.com/_/status/748882930102067201)
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petermolnar.eu edited /User:Petermolnar.eu (+6) ".eu -> .net" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu created /User:Petermolnar.net (+7237) "Created page with "[[Category:WordPress_Examples]] <span style="float:right;margin-left:1em"><img src="https://s.gravatar.com/avatar/1915b220dfe0cc56209cb4d11b389383?s=128" /></span> <span class="h..."" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /petermolnar (+1) "Redirected page to [[User:Petermolnar.net]]" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /User:Petermolnar.eu () "(-7204) Redirected page to [[User:Petermolnar.net]]" (view diff)
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petermolnar.net edited /IRC_People (+2) (view diff)
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petermolnar sorry for the noise; I decided to do a looong postponed main domain change from .eu to .net; the .eu always was awkward to tell people, as it never really caught up, and while it took a few years, I eventually got tired of it
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petermolnar ( it also adds to the factor that right now it's not simply the best domain to have)
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petermolnar so long live .net (.com is owned by someone else)
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tantek !tell petermolnar I hear eu is going out of fashion anyway right? ;) # toosoon?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar tantek it never was a fashion unfortunately :P
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petermolnar it sounded like a good idea 6-7 years ago
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petermolnar 2007, wow. 9 years already. I thought it was younger
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tantek petermolnar: could have been good for some domain hacks like cordonbl.eu
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petermolnar :D
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tantek what is shortdomains?
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Loqi short domains are commonly used on the IndieWeb for personal URL shortening, or clever domain hacks https://indiewebcamp.com/shortdomains
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tantek petermolnar: could you add your experience with .eu (i.e. "awkward to tell people") ^^^ ?
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petermolnar that is probably true for any culture-alien tld
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petermolnar.net edited /short-domains (+774) (view diff)
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petermolnar.net edited /short-domains (+24) "/* eu */" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /.bit (+168) "prompted by petermolnar and dfn added by petermolnar" (view diff)
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GWG Afternoon
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snarfed hi!
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GWG snarfed, squashing tonight.
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snarfed great!
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GWG I can never remember the commands.
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snarfed git rebase -i master
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GWG snarfed, that is how I ended up in this place. It keeps conflicting.
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GWG I haven't really worked on something where there is such rapid multiple person movements
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tantek me neither.
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GWG I will get to it. I just had to finish and go to sleep
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tantek re: commands and remembering :P
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GWG I don't need them often enough
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tantek yep
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GWG But I would be happy to need them more
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GWG It would mean someone other than me is committing
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GWG WordPress development seems to be like a hot tub
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snarfed GWG: conflicts are expected! they don't mean you did something wrong. :P don't try to avoid them with different commands. just resolve them, git add ..., and git commit.
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GWG I was having trouble finding the conflict, so I went to bed
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snarfed understood
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snarfed search for <<<
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GWG I am still hoping to have this problem more often
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snarfed GWG: i'm guessing you've read a tutorial or two on this overall git workflow?
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GWG Yes
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GWG But I was trying to make the point I hope for more WordPress developer interest in Indieweb projects.
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snarfed right, i know
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snarfed ok!
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GWG snarfed, I am hoping to drum up interest at WordCamp
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snarfed gl!
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[kylewm] “like a hot tub” means you get in and everyone else gets out?
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[kylewm] (not you specifically, the general “you")
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[kylewm] GWG: make sure you have some IWC stickers before wordcamp!
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+2104) "/* Working On */ better post creation UI - apparently these were only in local txt files. so add some off the top of my head" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm or like a hot tub means limited capacity and at some point anyone new getting in makes everyone else a bit more uncomfortable? until discomfort reaches a threshold which makes nearly everyone leave
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[kylewm] tantek: thank you for adding intellectual rigor to the analogy :stuck_out_tongue:
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Loqi [indieweb] "Great article by @dangillmor & @kevinmarks on #indieweb #dwebsummit: How To Break Open The Web http://www.fastcompany.com/3061357/the-web-decentralized-distributed-open" by Tantek http://tantek.com/2016/182/t1/indieweb-how-to-open-web
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veganstraightedge.com edited /site-deaths (+140) "/* Any Day Now: Paper.app for iOS by Facebook */" (view diff)
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[shaners] kyle snarfed gwg et al: have you had a chance to look at https://indiewebcamp.com/People_App_Proposal
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 2pm Pacific time. http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-07-01.html
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Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 2pm Pacific time. http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-07-01.html
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@indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-07-01.html https://twitter.com/indiewebcamp/status/748988309209133056/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/748988309209133056)
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tantek \o/
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tantek.com created /Template:photosrcalt (+517) "new photosrcalt template that takes two parameters, first the src, and second (optional, but highly recommended) the alt" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2016-06-29-homebrew-website-club (+608) "try photosrcalt template, feels like less work, let's see if anyone bothers to copy paste it moving forward." (view diff)
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tantek !tell gRegorLove could review this new photo template to help make sure we actually get nicer looking photos with u-photo markup for the newsletter etc: https://indiewebcamp.com/Template:photosrcalt
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /People_App_Proposal (+240) "/* Problems */ fix typo, note to solve "easily gets stale or out of sync with their current information", people app itself needs to auto-update info" (view diff)
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[shaners] tantek: 2 different sections speak to this issue later on in the proposal.
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[shaners] Can you 1. remove your note about solutioning from the problems section, 2. move it to somewhere else in the doc, and 3. at least, sign your {{name}} at the end of it, so readers know who is saying what
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tantek the staleness issue is the biggest problem IMO that I've seen (in the longterm). copy/pasting duplicates is trivial in comparison (even if tedious)
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tantek sure
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[shaners] Did you read the whole proposal? Or are you commenting as you go?
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tantek I was commenting as I went but I will restart with that in mind
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tantek another place where we duplicate info is in the grid of "campers" for each year
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tantek.com edited /events/2016-07-06-homebrew-website-club (+137) "photosrcalt template in comments, let's see if this works next week" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2016-07-06-homebrew-website-club (+3) "whitespace for hopefully more noticeability, easier copy/paste" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2016-07-27-homebrew-website-club (+139) "photosrcalt template in comments, let's see if this works next week" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2016-07-13-homebrew-website-club (+139) "photosrcalt template in comments, let's see if this works next week" (view diff)
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[shaners] Feel free to add that note about campers grid duplication to the proposal
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tantek it's more of a growing of problem scope than a proposal
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[shaners] huh?
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miklb tantek have you outlined somewhere why you seem so vehemently oppose anything besides mediawiki?
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tantek miklb - I'm vehemently opposed to making big changes for marginal (if any) benefits
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tantek and frankly, mediawiki vs markdown is a marginal at best, more like preference-based
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tantek kind of comes down to, training people to edit wikipedia vs. edit github
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miklb I'm not sure where the markdown comes in, but I can state from personal experience, the wiki was a barrier to entry to the IndieWeb community
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tantek miklb - I actually see a lot of opportunity in replacing mediawiki with something better, which is why I myself have written up most of the brainstorming about designing/building a better wiki - on the wiki itself
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tantek miklb - any tool will be a barrier
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tantek in fact, worse than mediawiki being a barrier, would be no mediawiki
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miklb I disagree, but I'm just an outsider
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tantek can you be more specific?
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tantek which statement "disagree"?
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miklb "any tool will be a barrier" I disagree with
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tantek can you provide a concrete counterexample to show your point?
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tantek (given that any tool has a learning curve)
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miklb my point was that my personal experience with trying to get information out of the wiki to get started.
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tantek that's more of a reflection of the actual level of difficult, and the difficulty of volunteer community written documentation
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tantek bigger barrier than "trying to get information out of the wiki to get started" is 6 years ago when there was nearly zero such information
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tantek so removing the wiki would *increase* the barrier, not lower it
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tantek and of course we can imagine aspirational replacements, but aspirations don't lower barriers either
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miklb I'm not suggesting "removing" I asking why you seem so against any other community driven desire to offer alternatives
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tantek because they're all aspirational and ignore the real problem (content) and instead focus on tools (let's use some other backend or UI)
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tantek yes I reject purely aspirational replacements
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tantek aspirational brainstorms OTOH, great, go forth and build something and show it
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tantek but talking about aspirational replacements is nothing but brainstorming, and should be treated as such
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[shaners] tantek: nothing about this proposal (or the other larger one /indieweb.org) is about markdown. i even reiterated that several times to you in personal after hwc. i said the same thing that my preference/taste is toward markdown where as yours is mediawiki. and i’m not trying to fight that battle anymore.
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tantek shaners, the whole "docs." thing is the aspirational vs. real problem
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[shaners] in fact, the people app is an attempt to away from syntax altogether. no markdown, no mediawiki, no html. just fill out a form. which is pre-populated from your h-card.
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[shaners] no syntax is better than any other syntax
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tantek yes that part makes sense and I believe I gave you that feedback
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tantek rather, a UI with discoverability is better than a text syntax
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tantek same reason that commandlines suck so bad
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tantek s/commandlines/CLIs
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[shaners] what does that mean? "UI with discoverability"
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Loqi tantek meant to say: same reason that CLIs suck so bad
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tantek shaners, elemental GUI aspects: GUIs tend to work better because a user can plainly *see* (graphically) and thus *discover* the things they can do.
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[shaners] ok
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tantek whereas CLIs are like mystery character line noise that does random stuff
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tantek nearly zero discoverability
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[shaners] Ok. no one is disagreeing with you about CLIs right now.
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tantek shaners, I was using that as analogy to explain forms vs text syntax
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[shaners] so, back to miklb’s question about your resistance to proposed solutions to very real problems. when that solution isn’t somehow inside of mediawiki, why are you resistant to it. namely, the people app.
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tantek shaners no one is saying that
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miklb I wouldn't have asked the question if that wasn't my perception.
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tantek not even miklb - who was talking about "trying to get information out of the wiki"
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tantek people app is about putting information in
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tantek a very small subset thereof at that, which is fine, it helps solve a specific problem
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[shaners] huh? Are we reading the same conversation here?
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tantek shaners yes see the difference of the word "out" in "trying to get information out of the wiki" (quoted from miklb above)
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tantek I think you're missing that
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tantek.com edited /People_App_Proposal (+1029) "move expansion of update problem to a feedback section, note +1 on solving that, and -1 on replacing User: pages (much more work than is being assumed by this proposal)" (view diff)
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tantek miklb, "getting information out of" is a problem for nearly every project and community, because it can almost always be improved, and most people in a community are not copy-editors
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[shaners] miklb: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-01/line/1467412085258
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[shaners] This thread start with him asking:
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[shaners] "tantek have you outlined somewhere why you seem so vehemently oppose anything besides mediawiki?"
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Loqi [miklb] tantek have you outlined somewhere why you seem so vehemently oppose anything besides mediawiki?
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miklb it did
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tantek shaners, yes, and when asked to clarify see the "out" quote
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tantek which made it clear that it's a content / copy-edit problem, not a tool problem
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-01/line/1467412372130
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Loqi [miklb] my point was that my personal experience with trying to get information out of the wiki to get started.
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tantek shaners, what part of that are you confused by?
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[shaners] but I think his original question still stands about your general resistance to using anything other than the wiki. even when the wiki is not great at it. profiles, events.
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tantek shaners, already answered. people mistaking changing tools for actually addressing the real problem (e.g. content about getting started in this instance)
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miklb tantek sorry I used the word "out" then
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tantek miklb you also said "getting started"
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tantek which has nothing to do people pages etc.
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tantek it has to do with getting started with your own website
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tantek shaners - you need to read more carefully, already answered
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-01/line/1467412104955
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Loqi [tantek] miklb - I'm vehemently opposed to making big changes for marginal (if any) benefits
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miklb so you are the arbiter of what is a benefit?
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miklb anyway, I guess I got my answer.
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tantek miklb - I as anyone can easily point out when there is no benefit shown
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[shaners] i said to you many times over after hwc sf (and i thought you agreed with me) that the wiki is great at free form site structure and free form content within a page. ie, it’s great at a community built resource / encyclopedia.
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[shaners] i said that the wiki is emphatically not good at other things. three examples of which: people, events, homepage *design* (which is hugely important).
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tantek what's the point of an arbiter of nothing?
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[shaners] what does that even mean, tantek?
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tantek it means nothing shown, nothing to arbitrate
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miklb I guess I've just never been around a community that was simultaneously trying to draw people in and someone discouraging attempts to do it.
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[shaners] "no benefit shown” is like your opinion, man.
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tantek nope. if you can't say it, it doesn't exist
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tantek the absence of something is the default state. your burden of proof to show otherwise.
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tantek and it's the only way to debunk instances of the politician's syllogism
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tantek to point out when a change doesn't actually address a problem
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miklb lol
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[shaners] why are you being this way, tantek? you have people telling you that there are these pain points with the website. and you are repeatedly resistant, pedantic and sometimes hostile to their opinions.
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tantek for example shaners, you have typed 100x more in IRC about a homepage than adding details which we can follow-up on here: https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/homepage
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tantek shaners, why do you like arguing in IRC instead of constructively adding to things on the wiki?
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[shaners] bc the channel is easy to use for me and wiki is not. full stop.
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[shaners] and ps, cool. thanks for calling my ideas “arguing"
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tantek right. it's easy to talk. harder to actually construct things incrementally with a community.
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tantek shaners, you yourself said it "said to you many times"
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miklb tantek are you saying then that the community is the wiki, period?
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tantek if you don't like mediawiki then use etherpad, or heck google docs
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tantek miklb - the wiki is the only resource that reflects current state
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[shaners] Fucking hell. I built a whole app to prove an idea. Before which you weren’t even willing to talk about.
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[shaners] Tantek do you remember at Super Duper 2 nights ago saying that the wiki was not good for events?
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tantek shaners already said, no interest in arguing in chat
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tantek because frankly you keep repeating yourself
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tantek and yes, "show don't tell" has been a core part of what made indiewebcamp indiewebcamp in the first place as an escape from the talking-centric communities of past
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tantek so don't be upset by that, embrace it!
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[shaners] Are you going to answer my question: do you remember at Super Duper 2 nights ago saying that the wiki was not good for events?
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tantek no because as I already said I have no interest in arguing with you in chat. it's clearly not productive and you keep repeating yourself.
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tantek shaners you said "channel is easy to use for me and wiki is not. full stop.", so I said "if you don't like mediawiki then use etherpad, or heck google docs"
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[shaners] Tantek: this is coming from a long time member of this community and a friend, the way you talk to me (and others) in the channel is why I don’t participate more.
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tantek shaners, I have zero interest in repeating arguments in chat/email other conversational mediums, and yes that's a deliberate discouragement in contrast to encouragement to use community collaborative documenting mediums (whether wiki or etherpad or other things)
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tantek as a friend I'm telling you to please reconsider your bias towards chat - it's not productive, and it turns people off when they're trying to *collaborate* to build something
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miklb weird, I always thought the reason to have a log was to document discussions.
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tantek miklb more like archive than document. it doesn't document the end result, any more than email does. it just documents diffs.
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tantek hence some document based solution (e.g. wiki or etherpad etc.) instead fo actually document
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miklb well, email isn't a public record generally, unless a mailing list, but ok?
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tantek right, it's the mailing list problem
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tantek because trying to figure out where something ended up from a mailing list is so ridiculously a high barrier that communities often keep having the same arguments there
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tantek prime reason we rejected one for this community when we started, and stuck with simple IRC instead
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tantek KevinMarks has a blog post on this phenomenon
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tantek (email lists being poor for consensus / building things)
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miklb heh, I feel the same way about a wiki
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tantek in what way? (actually curious)
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miklb personally, to use your CLI analogy, I feel that way about wikis
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tantek miklb have you tried finding the answer to something by searching logs vs. searching the wiki?
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miklb I've never found wiki search to be good, can never find something I *know* is there
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tantek so you're saying it's so difficult you can't tell the difference?
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miklb in general or for this community? Not so much these IRC logs but in other communities, yes
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miklb I've not had the need to search the IWC logs
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tantek can you say what kinds of things you were searching for that you never found?
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miklb off the top of my head, no. I've learned to bookmark much more when I have to use a wiki. Learned behavior maybe
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miklb or, use an IRC bot to tell me the actual link
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tantek there's a lot of people here (in the channel) that actively want to (and work to) make things more discoverable (findable) on the wiki
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tantek I'm not disagreeing with your problem statement
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tantek I'm saying there's an active interest in improving that
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miklb and I'm not saying that a wiki doesn't have its place.
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tantek if the "what is" technique doesn't get you what you want (or "know is there") then definitely feel free to ask for help
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tantek sometimes it's hard to know what's not findable, so it's quite helpful when you or anyone points that out
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tantek miklb: FWIW I was reading your user page thoughts on wordpress and agree with the sentiments
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miklb I do. It took me 6 months to get to that point. I'd encourage simpler paths. And not everyone is as forthcoming as I am
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tantek I myself have to tried get beginner wordpress users started using information on the wiki and it's nearly impossible
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miklb tantek that's a perfect example. I didn't know where to put those thoughts. Now there are discussion pages,which I have used in the past, but prior to switching to the default theme, it was confusing and I almost didn't share them
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tantek I think GWG is actively trying to improve that
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tantek miklb do you find discussion pages useful? there was a general feeling that they're not as useful as using IRC for discussion
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tantek (I think the old wiki theme hid the discussion page links to avoid misdirecting people there)
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tantek in essence the https://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress page should be what you're looking for, and if it's not, that's a problem that needs a good writer (and someone that understands WordPress) to fix
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tantek those aspects (needs a good writer that understands WordPress) is independent of whatever document editing tool (mediawiki, etherpad, google docs)
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miklb but it also requires someone comfortable with mediawiki. I've seen "incoming" pages created for a topic where a volunteer who was good with MW could collect and organize. Or the discussion page
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miklb brb
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miklb jekyll on a smaller scale is also an issue. there are numerous places that have information.
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tantek miklb agreed. jekyll docs could also use some cleanup by someone familiar with jekyll
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tantek I guess I'd see about merging those numerous places into https://indiewebcamp.com/Jekyll if you can find them
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tantek that would be a big help
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miklb not so much familiar with jekyll as MW. I wouldn't even know where to begin to properly collect and organize what is there
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tantek there's some suggestions on https://indiewebcamp.com/expand_a_page
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miklb that still requires knowing mediawiki markup and being familiar with linking and organzation. Something I have always had an aversion to.
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tantek I'm happy to help with the "how to properly collect and organize" question in general as well and adapt/change it based on suggestions / feedback
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tantek aversion to linking and organization (headings?) ? or the markup for?
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miklb to that end, I'll try to pull as much together link wise and dump it all on the discussion page with suggestions
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tantek if it's a syntax question, nevermind syntax and just write as you would in plain text
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tantek and then ping folks here to help add / clean-up markup
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tantek would that help?
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miklb it would help, but doesn't change my perspective that the wiki shouldn't be the end all, or that a proper home page wouldn't be beneficial
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tantek the wiki is just a set of collaborative document editing tools, that happens to have better persistence / search discovery than alternatives that are equivalently community accessible (etherpad, gdocs)
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tantek it's "good enough", not an "end all"
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tantek for homepage improvements, suggestions very much welcome here: https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/homepage
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miklb I have nothing else to offer to that discussion that hasn't already been said. I was truly just offering my own experiences in general and confusions I experienced with just a wiki. And I'm someone who's been around building websites not as long as some around here, but > 10 years
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tantek do you have examples of community website home pages that you like?
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miklb I truthfully think there are some good things with the Jekyll home page. jekyllrb.com
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miklb but they have numerous places to find info and get help. It's just a starting point, and IW isn't quite like a software project, so its not a fair comparision.
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loqi.me created /Etherpad (+219) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Etherpad (+54) "link to etherpad site, see also mediawiki" (view diff)
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tantek miklb thanks - will add
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tantek.com edited /2016/homepage (+42) "/* Examples */ add http://jekyllrb.com/ per miklb suggestion" (view diff)
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tantek miklb - it's still useful to get an idea, even if it's not a "fair comparison". and per that concern I added a note saying it's a project-specific home page.
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tantek but yes - I do think *good* examples of community website home pages (that are more than just a single project) are rarer
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tantek hence why I asked if you had seen any such, as you said as "someone who's been around building websites not as long as some around here, but > 10 years" :)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Stuff The Internet Says On Scalability For July 1st, 2016" by Todd Hoff http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/HighScalability/~3/WwGU8_es4Gw/stuff-the-internet-says-on-scalability-for-july-1st-2016.html
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miklb not going to disagree that it's not hard. This project is all but dead, but we iterated over it for a long time http://habariproject.org/en/
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki (+651) "add Why section, as it's worth capturing a start at this since it's come up in chat a few times" (view diff)
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miklb hard == project home page/website
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tantek miklb - that's quite an attractive home page
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tantek heh, "Community" goes to Google Groups list archives
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tantek quickly clicks "back"
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miklb that was a community decision. We also tried a forum, we had IRC (including a plugin that allowed you to access IRC from the admin of your install). Any time someone wanted to try a new avenue, we encouraged them to try.
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tantek.com edited /2016/homepage (+177) "note still looking for good examples of Community website home pages vs project-specifc, add habariproject per miklb suggestion" (view diff)
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miklb wikis/IRC/mailing lists/forums were a pain point for WordPress in the early days too.
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tantek miklb I suppose by that "Community" link comment I meant specifically that a Google Groups list archives page is a very poor "Community" home page IMO
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tantek miklb - in the early days of microformats too.
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tantek trolls eventually hijacked the mailing lists :(
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miklb I don't disagree. The support link at the top might have been a better page to link to for that
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tantek turns out that "talker trolls" (i.e. folks that never/rarely actually build anything) have FAR more time (and preference) to write long emails than collaborate on documents (wiki or otherwise) or any open source
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tantek so they tend to "win" in email lists, and drain folks that are the core value of a creative community, the folks actually designing and building things
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miklb sure, and now they just troll issues in github ;-)
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tantek eventually mailing lists end up dominated by just such talkers, and none of who will actually ever build anything, so it turns into a purely virtual social thing, rather than anything productive
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tantek miklb - good point. sometimes that happens there too. :/
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tantek the *hope* with IRC is that it's harder to write essays, and so hopefully harder for talkers to waste time, or rather, we can usually redirect them to attempting to do productive things, like signing in with their own website to the website etc. (which then walks them through improving their website)
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tantek stops writing an essay in IRC ;)