#indieweb 2017-10-18

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sknebel
Good morning IndieWeb!
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Ruxton
aftermorning sknebel
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calumryan
Good morning
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Loqi
*yawn*
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ScalaWilliam
are there any alternatives to mf2j I can use?
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ScalaWilliam
I'm thinking, where does it NOT make sense to do microformats in HTML exclusively?
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ScalaWilliam
here's the page - https://actionfps.com/clanwars/ - and here's the JSON data right now - https://actionfps.com/clanwars/?format=json -- both are generated from same source data at runtime so would not diverge.
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cweiske
parsing mf2 is complicated
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cweiske
if you don't want to require your clients to have a full-blown html5 parser just to get some stats, keep the json
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ScalaWilliam
Got it
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ScalaWilliam
when a sidefile is automatically generated from the same data source - is it still an anti-pattern to have a sidefile any more? https://indieweb.org/sidefile-antipattern
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cweiske
I don't think anyone creates feed files manually, but tantek still sees them as bad sidefile
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cweiske
so, yes
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ScalaWilliam
hmm his primary concern however is "out-of-date, missing, corrupted, or outright false data.", which is part-eliminated by auto-generation
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cweiske
But You Do Not Immediately See If The Json Is Broken By Looking At The Webpage
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cweiske
Because You Uninstalled The Json Library
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cweiske
primary example is that feeds break after a site redesign and nobody notices
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cweiske
because the people themselves do not have their own site in their feed reader, and subscriber's feed readers just don't show any updates
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cweiske
(although the tt-rss I use shows feed parsing errors)
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sknebel
yep. I mean, you can easily break an embedded (mf2) feed as well during a redesign (and I've heard that from multiple people as a difficulty when working on mf2-enabled sites), but at least it's unlikely to silently stop/the generation to barf on some weirdly formatted data/... as long as the main site doesn't break
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cweiske
I wonder what tantek would respond to that
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cweiske
look, there's a three-headed monkey behind you!
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sknebel
and if you are intentionally are offering an API and want people to make custom consuming apps (what I assume your actionfps example is about) just clearly defined JSON is, as cweiske said, the thing that everyone can handle
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cweiske
json-schema ftw
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sknebel
maybe, no experience with things like that
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ScalaWilliam
yep @sknebel that's what I was thinking, the mark-up could be even more likely to break
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ScalaWilliam
I had used JSON schema multiple times, it works nicely
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Media companies should own their websites + audience relationships. #indieweb, I want to see your applications. https://matter.vc/apply" by Ben Werdmüller on 2017-10-11 https://werd.io/2017/media-companies-should-own-their-websites-audience-relationships-indieweb-i
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ScalaWilliam
it seems simply that if you don't want something breaking, you need somebody to test your changes. For plain webpages, it's human eyes, and for computer-readable data, integration tests.
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sknebel
I think the point is about when it breaks - "let me validate my microformats are still fine after I've changed the templates" is different from "oh, the feed generation script choked on some weird encoding error a few months ago and nobody noticed" (the sysadmin answer is "monitoring" to the latter)
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ScalaWilliam
by creating an API (similar to an embedded format!), whether mf2 or JSON, you are making a contract with somebody.
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sknebel
for embedding in pages, I dislike how JSON-LD looks. I'm not sure how strict/tolerant consuming apps are - most of what I read about is "google uses schema.org for some info boxes". and now ActivityPub/ActivityStreams use it, but (I think) o ndedicated endpoints/with content negotiation, not embedded in pages
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ScalaWilliam
great point sknebel. I'm asking more about the former.
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ScalaWilliam
Idea: I'm thinking what I could do for instance is to generate HTML with mf2 and then offer <link rel="alternate" type="application/json" href="https://some.generic.converter/my-page/"/> which would return JSON automatically from mf2
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ScalaWilliam
this takes away any need for my app to serve JSON, but then it feels quite brittle, and I'd have more difficulty controlling the output format
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sknebel
many here use things like that for h-feed to atom feed, but I think for something that's just on my site (vs a service many profit from, and thus can save their own development work) I wouldn't do that
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jeremycherfas
Hello IndieWeb
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sknebel
Morning!
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j4y_funabashi
morning all
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j4y_funabashi
is having fun building an h-feed normalizing service
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j4y_funabashi
does willnorris come here often?
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sknebel
Don't' think so, but he might be in slack?
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sknebel
j4y_funabashi: what are you normalizing?
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j4y_funabashi
sknebel: I am making a little service that I can give a url and it will pull all the posts and return them in a normalized format
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j4y_funabashi
so that the client doesnt have to mess around with different date formats, authorship algorithm etc
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sknebel
Ah. Kinda like xray?
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j4y_funabashi
yeah alot like that - not sure whether i will return jf2
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j4y_funabashi
but def the same sort of thing. Given an h-feed input, give me a clean version
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j4y_funabashi
then next steps are to all polling/websub and some aggregation so I can say 'show me all photos from people i'm following'
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j4y_funabashi
or 'show me all posts from May 2017'
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j4y_funabashi
it's going to be the backend to my feed reader + post editing client
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@kevinmarks
@heydonworks Also, come write decentralized social media things down at http://indieweb.org with the rest of us
(twtr.io/1XM3LrQdZPC)
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sknebel
j4y_funabashi: yes, reader backend sounds great! looking forward to it
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j4y_funabashi
sknebel: me too :)
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cweiske
so people have to built extra services that get from h-feeds what atom has by default. sad.
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j4y_funabashi
what does atom have by default?
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cweiske
an author
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cweiske
a standard post date
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j4y_funabashi
are you forced to put dates in a specific format?
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cweiske
because they were made to be easy to parse
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j4y_funabashi
I am fairly certain that when I add RSS/Atom to this service then *some* amount of cleanup will be required but we will see :)
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[heydon]
Hi everybody.
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[heydon]
I’ve been thinking about decentralized social media from an accessibility perspective. Currently content and interfaces are tethered, meaning users have to suffer inaccessible interfaces to consume the social media content they desire.
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[heydon]
This has resulted in separate interfaces for (example) Twitter, like EasyChirp (http://www.easychirp.com/) but does not solve other centralization problems such as data storage / hosting cost etc.
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[heydon]
So I got to thinking about ways of consuming content from your choice of data feeds (probably JSON, behaves like RSS) and viewing that content locally (localhost) via your own choice of interface/theme (created yourself or acquired from a community of themes).
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[heydon]
You’ve probably gone over this kind of stuff before here, but I’ve written some notes on these ideas for anyone who’s interested:
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Zegnat
[heydon], was there supposed to be a link to your notes? Or is it some content that didn’t make it from Slack to IRC?
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Loqi
Zegnat: jeremycherfas left you a message 2 days ago: I'm not sure I understand what is necessary to install the Mumble client. Is it just a question of going to voice.sknebel.net and logging into that.
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sknebel
[heydon]: freenode threw your IRC representation out due to posting to quickly, throw that in a blogpost or something like that and share the link ;)
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sknebel
Zegnat: [heydon] (~slackuser@chat.indieweb.org) has quit (Excess Flood) is freenode telling them to slow down, but I suspect the slack gateway doesn't handle that in any special way? (/cc aaronpk)
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[heydon]
Okay, will do. I knew I shouldn’t have used Slack for this 😞
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Zegnat
Maybe it was one big post to Slack and the IRC gateway splits that into IRC-compatible line lengths. But when it submits all those lines at once that throws things out of whack
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[heydon]
Makes sense.
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sknebel
ah. was it one long message?
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sknebel
(writing a bug report for the gateway right now, that'd be important to add ;))
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Zegnat
[heydon], there are some brainstorming things about readers on here: https://indieweb.org/reader
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Zegnat
There is also a session about bringing subscribing and reading together under the user’s control at the Summit this year: https://indieweb.org/2017/together - that page links to the project cleverdevil started.
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[heydon]
@sknebel Yeah, a copy/paste.
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sknebel
[heydon]: k, noting that
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[heydon]
@Zegnat Thanks for the link
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[heydon]
A ‘reader’ in my conception would probably be node-based install that ‘pulls’ and aggregates JSON URLs then launches an interface on localhost.
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Loqi
I added a countdown scheduled for 2017-10-18 5:29pm CEST (#6194)
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sknebel
[heydon]: FYI, in IRC your long message got until "ou’ve probably gone over this kind of stuff before here, but I’ve written some notes on these ideas for anyone who’s interested:"
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j4y_funabashi
[heydon]: I am currently in the process of building a back end for this sort of system :)
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[heydon]
@j4y_funabashi Nice! Anything public I can look at?
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j4y_funabashi
not yet, I have just started a couple of days ago
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[heydon]
Okay, exciting
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j4y_funabashi
[heydon]: it currently takes a url and walks through finding all h-entry's, cleans them up and saves them with the intent of exposing a json api for clients to read those posts and display them however they want.
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@kimberlyhirsh
@ChrisAldrich I've used that since I first went IndieWeb. It's great. Thanks!
(twtr.io/1XMCVmXAaXP)
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[heydon]
@j4y_funabashi This sounds great. If/when you’re ready I’d love a look at the repo’
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tantek
hello #indieweb
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tantek
it's HWC day!
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tantek
[heydon]: about readers - there's no need for a separate JSON, you literally just read the h-feed from the web page you're following, subscribing etc.
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tantek
hardest problems about readers are not the plumbing / formats, so that's not the best place to start (because it ignores the actual hard problems)
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tantek
hardest problems are mostly UX, for more talk about formats and such, check out the #indieweb-dev channel (or # dev in Slack)
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GWG
Yay
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Zegnat
Hmm, the in-between server both j4y_funabashi and [heydon] are talking about sounds a little like https://indieweb.org/Microsub
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Zegnat
Where the microsub implementation takes care of the subscribing and data parsing, and feeds it to a client reader in a fixed format
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[heydon]
tantek Thanks for the tips. I’m hoping to come up with something that sort of… decentralizes the UX / lets you consume things however you want. BTW am aiming to come to the Berlin meetup.
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[heydon]
Do I need to sign up somewhere?
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tantek
the Berlin meetup tomorrow or IWC Berlin in November?
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[heydon]
Sorry, Novemebr.
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aaronpk
that does sound like the goal of Microsub
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aaronpk
j4y_funabashi: have you seen that draft yet?
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sknebel
I'm in mumble now
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Loqi
Countdown set by sknebel on 2017-10-18 at 2:34pm CEST
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Zegnat
I am heading over
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[markmhendrickso
I've been reading a bit about Europe's General Data Protection Regulation recently. Have you all checked it out? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation
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tbbrown
i attended a session on gdpr at internet identity workshop yesterday
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[markmhendrickso
It basically forces any internet service that operates with European customers to provide data portability, among other data protections. It seems pretty massively significant in concept at least, and given the steep fines for companies that don't conform by May 2018, likely to force their hands by then to support data portability?
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[markmhendrickso
@tbbrown awesome, how'd it go? any gems?
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tbbrown
...picking up my notes...
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tbbrown
there is an article 29 working group which documents guidance
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[markmhendrickso
This is a pretty good quick intro for those interested: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r1sdtoc02lidfdb/opentext-dcg-insightbrief-talking.pdf?dl=0
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aaronpk
what is GDPR?
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Loqi
GDPR is the EU General Data Protection Regulation which sets much tighter guidelines on use of personally identifiable information, and is backed by law, including fines for non-compliance https://indieweb.org/GDPR
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aaronpk
we talked about it during a session at indiewebcamp nürnberg too
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[markmhendrickso
aaronpk fantastic
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tbbrown
the main idea of the session was that you can process data if one of 6 things applied (article 6) and it was suggested that the last of the 6 options is consent.
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[markmhendrickso
BTW I'll be in Berlin on Nov 4 for the camp there, looking fwd to meeting anyone else here who's going too 😃
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[markmhendrickso
I still have to RSVP though... =P
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calumryan
Everyone’s had to do a course on GDPR in our company
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Zegnat
calumryan, anything interesting you would be able to share coming out of that?
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[markmhendrickso
I'm particularly interested in how companies will have to provide essentially a data export capability, but I worry it'll be like "submit your request and in 3 months we'll send you a ZIP file". It would be awesome if it were more like "here's your zip file option and an API to pull data now"
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[markmhendrickso
If it were to specifically require export APIs, that'd be huuuge
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[markmhendrickso
....not to mention import APIs, which would be double huge
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[markmhendrickso
calumryan where are you located?
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calumryan
It’s quite stipulative on a range of matters from remote working in public spaces to capturing and keeping user data correctly
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j4y_funabashi
aaronpk: I have not
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j4y_funabashi
what is microsub
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Loqi
Microsub is an early draft of a spec that provides a standardized way for clients to consume and interact with feeds collected by a server https://indieweb.org/microsub
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aaronpk
i'd be interested in your thoughts on it if you're already working on the plumbing
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j4y_funabashi
aaronpk: ha! yeah that totally sounds like the thing I am building. will have a proper read through this evening
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tbbrown
...there will be a few more gdpr sessions at iiw today including "how the gdpr is making me track more" and i plan to do an indieweb session tomorrow morning
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[kevinmarks]
Downstairs at hwc London
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calumryan
kevinmarks: barryf should be coming to meet you
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[kevinmarks]
They let us up - where are you?
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[kevinmarks]
@j4y_funabshi - unmung.com will turn any atom/rss/whatever feed into h-feed
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tommorris
tantek, [barryf], KevinMarks_ [kevinmarks] I am down in reception. Any chance you can let me in?
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tantek
barryf kicking off HWC London!
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tantek
kevinmarks is setting up his noterlive
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tantek
barry's personal site is barryfrost.com
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tantek
posts notes to his site, gets syndicated to twitter
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tantek
posts photos to Instagram which get autoposted to his site
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tantek
posts articles to his site
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tantek
bookmarks to Pinboard
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tantek
Swarm checkins get posted to his site
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @barryf: welcome to homebrew website club london - I'm Barry and my website is https://barryfrost.com/ usually barryf elsewhere
(twtr.io/1XMcVdituVV)
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tantek
Tantek Çelik, tantek.com
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tantek
co-founded indieweb
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tantek
posting notes to my site since 2010
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tantek
syndicating to Twitter
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tantek
Jean Russell
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: I'm Tantek Çelik at http://tantek.com - posting to my site since 2010 - I didn't think twitter would last
(twtr.io/1XMcczk1Cjp)
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tantek
Kevin Marks, of KevinMarks.com
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tantek
co-founded microformats, has helped Indieweb since the start
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tantek
uses Instagram and OwnYourGram to post photos to his site
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tantek
wants to improve how he posts to Twitter using his own site
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Neil: I'm Neil and fairly new to Indieweb - my site is http://doubleloop.net and I post using wordpress and micropub
(twtr.io/1XMcrYuDEso)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Neil: I use quill and shpub to post - I was syndicating to twitter but I broke that
(twtr.io/1XMcuGBwCij)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Neil: I've started using mastodon as well
(twtr.io/1XMcyNpo3cb)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: if you go to http://fed.brid.gy you cna syndicate between your site and mastodon
(twtr.io/1XMd01bC2VM)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @calum_ryan: I'm at https://calumryan.com and have built lots of indieweb tech into my site - syndicate to twitter and FB,
(twtr.io/1XMd3A8XBdk)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @calum_ryan: I also pull in Swarm checkins via http://ownyourswarm.com, and send out webmentions myself
(twtr.io/1XMd5pvZ0eY)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @calum_ryan: I'll be giving a talk in a coupel fo weeks aimed at people who haven't heard of indieweb
(twtr.io/1XMd7hRvHgM)
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tantek
"open sourcing the true meaning of social media"
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Grigor: I haven't heard of indieweb before - I understand that you don't want to be bound to a specific platform and I like it
(twtr.io/1XMdBYiABLZ)
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tantek
(from Gregor)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Alex: I'm Alex and the only one without a computer - I've been a developer for 10 years, and the web is my passion
(twtr.io/1XMdHPSrqpb)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Alex: I ma working on a site at https://new.avdanov.com - it is in Laravel and is a PWA and works offline too
(twtr.io/1XMdPnSixWf)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @tommorris: I have http://tommorris.org which I don't post to much - maybe 10-15 times a year
(twtr.io/1XMdRfYNYp4)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @tommorris: I jumped into the indieweb with great gusto at the first indiewebcamp Brighton, built it on the train back
(twtr.io/1XMdUbD9RgQ)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @tommorris: I spent a lot of time working on checkins, which I don't use, I built reviews which I don't use
(twtr.io/1XMdX8S7Uhm)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @tommorris: I wrote short notes syndicated to twitter, but I don't use it much because people don't like 140 chars of 200
(twtr.io/1XMdaVHjNbq)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @tommorris: I spend more time in silos like facebook, whatsapp and private chat and less time on the public internet 'cos Nazis
(twtr.io/1XMddSGWKsZ)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @tommorris: I may rebuild my site as more of a structured reference - I am not sure what I want to do with it
(twtr.io/1XMdfi2aaAw)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @tommorris: I do post music - currently playing - mostly mixes
(twtr.io/1XMdnwx30G0)
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tantek
what are recent articles
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "recent articles" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10un
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: I have recent publications for my external posts http://www.kevinmarks.com/#Publications, but http://kevimarks.com is long things
(twtr.io/1XMeFUrRrhx)
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Loqi
Twitter’s Nazi Filter 2017-10-13
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: I posted http://www.kevinmarks.com/twitternazifilter.html about Twitter's secret nazi filer, and it has lots of replies
(twtr.io/1XMeRd32bDw)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: which show up on my site due to brid.gy
(twtr.io/1XMeSgZBaPj)
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tantek
I've had problems with nonsense replies, e.g. on this tweet https://twitter.com/t/status/912705778275975174
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tantek
tommorris: I like the idea of just anonymous +1s
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dgold
seems that the nazifilter only aplied to the twitter website, on a per-browser basis
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dgold
ie: setting country to germany doesn't -> no nazis in tweetbot
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snarfed
anonymous +1s remind me of the famous slashdot poll disclaimer:
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snarfed
"This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane."
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "#746" by Neil Mather on 2017-10-18 https://doubleloop.net/2017/10/18/746/
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@craigbased
When do we want it? A TL arranged by time. Now. What do we want?
(twtr.io/1XHmSwQUi9t)
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tommorris
no venmo in UK
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tommorris
paypal.me also outs your location. if that's city-level like "London, GB" or "San Francisco, CA" that's not such a big deal, but if you are in a small town that's a bit creepy. still no opt-out on that. :(
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @barryf: I have been using untappd to check in when I drink beers - which goes to Swarm, so ends up at my site
(twtr.io/1XMgfJ35hpe)
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tantek
BTW one thought for showing facepiles for likes and reposts etc. and avoiding bad icons, only show avatars (even names) from those you "follow" (insert vague dfn here), and then just show a summary number (and 47 others) afterwards
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @barryf: I checked into a micropub using micropub! - I'd like to bring the beers in too
(twtr.io/1XMgi8CUGht)
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tantek
"owning my beers, that is something I'd like to do" -barryf
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tantek
barryf is showing us his Medium export
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tantek
and it has microformats2 h-entry
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Loqi
[Kevin Marks] The ideal place for a Homebrew Website Club? #indieweb #micropub http://known.kevinmarks.com/file/cf0d21e222be16587533d3d9ed8287e8/thumb.jpg
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Loqi
[barryf] #160 Add Microformats markup
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @barryf: I got microformats into the default theme for jekyll, and has been approved, but not merged to master yet
(twtr.io/1XMhBhRo8jv)
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tantek
GDPR?
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tantek
what is GDPR?
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Loqi
GDPR is the EU General Data Protection Regulation which sets much tighter guidelines on use of personally identifiable information, and is backed by law, including fines for non-compliance https://indieweb.org/GDPR
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Loqi
[Kiai Kim] How to Install the Known platform on a Dreamhost shared server
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tantek
is Dreamhost doing one-click Known installs? cleverdevil?
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Zegnat
Last time I checked, they didn’t.
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Zegnat
We were also discussing hosted Known in vHWC today.
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@craigbased
When do we want it? A TL arranged by time. Now. What do we want?
(twtr.io/1XHmSwQUi9t)
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@grantcodes
Got a colourful new refresh of my #indieweb site online: https://grant.codes
(twtr.io/1XMm656jzoG)
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sknebel
colorful indeed :)
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grantcodes
Did you find the not super obvious color switcher? :D
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sknebel
grantcodes: yes!
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sknebel
very nice
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grantcodes
Yeah css custom properties are fun
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sknebel
although while scrolling a copy of your face flickers at the bottom. is that intentional, and if yes what it is supposed to look like? it's kind of weird
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grantcodes
nah, probably because it's fixed position, you using firefox?
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sknebel
in chrome
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sknebel
i'll screenshot, one sec
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grantcodes
Hmm, I'll check, didn't even bother with chrome
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grantcodes
Oh yeah it's a bit wonky in chrome
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grantcodes
And now it's fine...
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grantcodes
blend modes or something...
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sknebel
the underlines of the links are also kind of broken
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sknebel
surprising how wonky this stuff is
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sknebel
(when it redraws the normal underline after I stop hovering the link it seems to forget to clear the entire space the wiggly line needed)
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grantcodes
I know right, I kind of like the broken underlines, they are quite fun. But the background fixed itself for me as soon as i resized the window
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sknebel
yes, resize or further scrolling or even just changing windows fixes it
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sknebel
well, glitches are art too :)
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@xtof_party
@leGouter Merci Sylvain pour l’info. Relativisons, ce n’était qu’une marque et non un patronyme. #ownyourdomain https://indieweb.org/domain
(twtr.io/1XMpWwbn3fo)
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grantcodes
Ha yeah, I don't hate it. The site is still usable. Will probably be fixed in chrome at some point :P But I may simplfy that background css a bit
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@barryf
Bumper Homebrew Website Club London tonight. Thanks everyone for coming 🙌 #hwclondon #indieweb https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMcjet8WAAAID2y.jpg
(twtr.io/1XMsCLuAjgb)
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@markhobson
The rise of the silos. Great history lesson by @t and optimism for the future social web: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNr0JNwsLy8 #indieweb
(twtr.io/1XMxPsAUkHy)
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GWG
I just changed the theme on my site from the old one to my 2016 fork
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GWG
Needs work, but not bad
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Reply toMeredith Fierro on Setting up a Feed with Feedly" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-10-18 http://boffosocko.com/2017/10/18/reply-tomeredith-fierro-on-setting-up-a-feed-with-feedly/
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@GrigorYosifov
Thanks for introducing us to the heart of IndieWeb! :) https://twitter.com/barryf/status/920743672446160896
(twtr.io/1XNAapZexWg)
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Mutter
hi!
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[jeremycherfas]
Interesting that chrisaldrich just added Reclaim to one click hosting for Known in the wiki.
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