#indieweb 2017-10-29

2017-10-29 UTC
tantek, Ruxton, hs0ucy and [eddie] joined the channel
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[eddie] !tell aaronpk: question, what caused you to post podcasts on their own site but not on yours?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[eddie] So I have a philosophical question for anyone interested: When you have multiple sites, do you post as "original" on both, do you post it on one and do a "repost" on another site? A couple practical examples:
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[eddie] 1. I would like a microsite for my podcast, but I also want the content on my identity website. So should I post on both? Or do I post on the microsite and then repost on my site? Feels weird to not have it be original on my site, but reposting on the site FOR the podcast also feels strange
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[eddie] 2. I am working on a website for my family. Something that could contain photo albums, travel logs, etc for my wife and I. Some of the content might come from my site, some might come from my wife's site.
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[eddie] For example 2 I feel good with a repost on the family site because it is displaying something for a different audience from my original website
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[eddie] But I don't feel super confident in that. I've tried searching the wiki for brainstorming but couldn't figure out what to really search and didn't really find anything
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snarfed !tell j4y_funabashi hmm, sorry for the trouble! not sure what's up, it worked for my account just now. facebook API seems slow right now though, make sure it fully loaded?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi snarfed: [chrisaldrich] left you a message 3 days, 17 hours ago: For fed.brid.gy & WordPress, if one's feed isn't on their homepage, but somewhere like example.com/blog/, then one should use example.com/blog/ instead of just the domain for creating the <head> atom feed w/ granary?
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Loqi snarfed: j4y_funabashi left you a message 6 hours, 49 minutes ago: I am looking at the demo app for granary, trying to look at my facebook feed but pressing GET returns no results, do I have to fill in activity_id?
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tantek [eddie] I think there are different ways of cross-posting and perhaps it would be better to gather / document examples first
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snarfed !tell j4y_funabashi (and no, no activity_id required.) if it still doesn't work, try revoking granary's access on https://www.facebook.com/settings?tab=applications and then r login on granary
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek for example, sometimes cross-posts are just syndicated copies, not reposts
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tantek that is, the original author puts the post in both places. that's more syndication than reposting. reposting typically has the implication of someone else reposting something
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tantek (though Twitter I think enabled retweeting yourself?)
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tantek [eddie] here's an example - see top (most recent) posts on microformats.org
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tantek from different authors, cross-posted from their personal sites. not "reposted"
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[eddie] tantek: ohhh that’s interesting. That makes sense that syndication would be different than reposting.
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[eddie] I think one of the challenges in researching this one is that it doesn’t feel common inside of Silos and I’m not sure what to research besides them. Lol
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tantek group blogs
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snarfed !tell chrisaldrich re bridgy fed + url paths + atom...i honestly don't know. :P bridgy fed currently federates responses, but not (really) accounts or posts. obviously a big whole in the broader UX of making indieweb interact w/fedsocnets!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed !tell chrisaldrich i'm all for bridgy fed helping with that part too, but i'm hoping the community can help with research to see what works. want to help? https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/14
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [snarfed] #14 docs for following and delivering posts, both directions
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tantek snarfed, it's one way right now right? Responses but not backfeed?
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snarfed tantek: two way!
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[eddie] tantek: ahh good point! Because that’s essentially what my family site would become.
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snarfed definitely still finding inconsistent edge cases, but fully implemented and tested at least the most obvious ways. https://fed.brid.gy/#sites
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Loqi [superfeedr] "The ongoing saga of attempting to connect micro.blog to Known" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-10-26 https://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2017/the-ongoing-saga-of-attempting-to-connect-microblog-to-known
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tantek is there a common name or phrase for the problem the Oatmeal recently documented? https://twitter.com/oatmeal/status/923250055540219904
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@Oatmeal lol https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNALBryUMAAs1cp.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/923250055540219904)
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tantek the cartoon is captioned "Reaching people on the internet."
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tantek but really the problem is one where the silo doesn't show you things from (at least some) pubilshers without making the publishers pay
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tantek pay for reach as it were
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tantek and a quick web search reveals that there's enough use of that phrase that it should be known
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tantek what is pay for reach?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pay for reach" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek pay for reach is a business practice by [[Facebook]], [[Twitter]], and other social media [[silos]], whereby they charge publishers (ask them to pay) to have their posts be shown to users on their site, even if the users have already opted-in ([[followed]], subscribed) to posts from those publishers.
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Loqi ok
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tantek what is the facebook algorithm
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "facebook algorithm" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek Facebook Algorithm is [[Facebook Master Algorithm]]
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Loqi ok
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tantek algorithm << Facebook Master Algorithm
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Facebook Master Algorithm]]" to the "See Also" section of /algorithm
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tantek pay for reach << Facebook Master Algorithm
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Facebook Master Algorithm]]" to the "See Also" section of /pay_for_reach
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tantek pay for reach << antipatterns
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Loqi ok, I added "[[antipatterns]]" to the "See Also" section of /pay_for_reach
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tantek AMP << 2017-10-26 Ethan Marcotte: [https://ethanmarcotte.com/wrote/seven-into-seven/ Seven into seven.] <blockquote>Significant features and changes require the approval of AMP’s Technical Lead and one Core Committer, that list seems exclusively staffed and led by Google employees</blockquote>
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Loqi ok, I added "2017-10-26 Ethan Marcotte: [https://ethanmarcotte.com/wrote/seven-into-seven/ Seven into seven.] <blockquote>Significant features and changes require the approval of AMP’s Technical Lead and one Core Committer, that list seems exclusively staffed and led by Google employees</blockquote>" to the "See Also" section of /Accelerated_Mobile_Pages
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oodani Hi, I just implemented distributed IndieAuth on 00dani.me, but IndieAuth.com doesn't seem to be able to handle it? After approving the auth request on my site and redirecting back to IndieAuth.com, I get a message saying "Something went horribly wrong! I'm sorry, there's not much other information available. You should probably file an issue: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues." I've no idea what could've gone wrong - I haven't filed an issue
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oodani yet since there's basically no information to put into it. As far as I can tell I've implemented all the endpoints correctly, and they played nicely when testing in development with HTTPie. Any ideas? Is there an IndieAuth implementation that'll give me a little more debug info, perhaps?
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk^
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aaronpk Hmm
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Loqi aaronpk: [eddie] left you a message 6 hours, 20 minutes ago: question, what caused you to post podcasts on their own site but not on yours?
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aaronpk try signing in to telegraph.p3k.io
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KartikPrabhu oodani: welcome. hopefully aaronpk would be able to resolve your issue
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aaronpk or https://quill.p3k.io
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oodani Ooh, Telegraph's worth a try. (I already tried Quill, but it doesn't let me auth since I haven't got micropub done yet. :P )
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aaronpk i can check the server logs on IndieAuth.com tomorrow but I'm not at my computer right now
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oodani My implementation rejects authentication from Telegraph, fails because it doesn't have a <link rel="redirect_uri"> set up like IndieAuth.com does. Oops.
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oodani I guess checking for <link rel="redirect_uri"> isn't really a good idea yet, since only some clients actually use it?
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aaronpk Ooh nice. Yea unfortunately that's kind of an experimental property right now
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oodani How do most implementations verify the client_id then? :o
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oodani Just switched off my redirect_uri verification and authenticating with Telegraph works perfectly. Hmmm.
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: it is kind of weird that clients use experimental properties
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KartikPrabhu which then trips up people testing it
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oodani I can't authenticate with woodwind.xyz, because it thinks my authorisation endpoint is at woodwind.xyz/auth/indie instead of 00dani.me/auth/indie. That seems like a bug in Woodwind, honestly.
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: it's more that the guide for clients is stricter than most clients are actually implemented
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aaronpk oodani: that does sound like a bug in woodwind. Are you using a relative url for your endpoint?
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oodani Yep, since that's what Django produces by default. <link rel="authorization_endpoint" href="/auth/indie" />, specifically. I include a <base> everywhere, so relative URLs should be resolvable without any trouble.
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: hmm yeah that sounds like a problem for people trying to test their implementation (such as this case). is there a indieauth.rocks?
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KartikPrabhu oodani: yeah that does seem to be a bug with woodwind
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aaronpk Oof I don't know if anything involving <base> resolving would be considered not any trouble
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aaronpk but it should at least be resolving using the url it retrieved from
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KartikPrabhu shouldn't most "parsers" repsect the <base> tag?
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oodani My <base> is just <base href="https://00dani.me" />, it's there so that you can properly parse relative URLs in local copies of my pages.
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KartikPrabhu oodani: yup that seems correct to me
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oodani So even clients that don't know about <base> should be okay here, since they go to the live site anyway.
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aaronpk Great
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aaronpk It's late, I've gotta go to bed
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oodani Timezones!
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oodani Thanks for your help so far. :)
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KartikPrabhu oodani: thanks for reporting the weirdness!
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oodani ;)
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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Zegnat How has your known testing gone, jeremycherfas? All peachy?
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jeremycherfas Timezones on chat.indieweb.org do not know about the end to daylight savings in Europe.
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jeremycherfas Very peachy indeed. I just wish there were a flag for whether or not to POSSE. Not everything deserves to be everywhere.
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jeremycherfas Had the first opportunity to use my automated bad comment delete script in the wild this morning and it failed. Because in all my testing, I have it the full filename, with extension. But the email that alerts me that there is a comment does not include the extension. Simple enough fix, but now need to wait for another opportunity to use it.
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jeremycherfas Zegnat, do you know how the bridge from Slack to IRC handles replies in a thread at Slack? It seems like they are ignored.
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Zegnat I do not know how they are handled, I think I’ve never even logged into Slack
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Zegnat Also, re flags for POSSE, isn’t that what the syndicate-to property in Micropub is for?
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jeremycherfas No prob. I'll find my reply there and repost here. I seem to recall a problem like this before.
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jeremycherfas Yes it is; but the hook up between micro.blog apps and Known seems to be hard-wired. Everything from one of the apps goes to Stream.
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jeremycherfas Ah; chat isn't logged, of course. I replied to your post about loudness, zegnat, as follows: Fascinating, especially the logging part. I have a dB meter on my phone for audio reasons but I’ve never thought to log.
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Zegnat Oh, yeah, that showed up in IRC too
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Zegnat But if you wrote it in Slack as a reply to a specific message, that information gets lost: https://imgur.com/GR8fjMw
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jeremycherfas OK. I use Slack to catch up from when I quit IRC, so if there are things that happened a while ago, I make them replies in a thread. That's obviously not such a good idea.
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oodani Update from earlier: I ended up keeping the rel="redirect_uri" verification as an optional extra rather than mandatory-for-all-IndieAuth-clients. https://00dani.me/articles/4/lemoncurry-1-5-0-now-with-indieauth Pretty proud of it honestly.
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Loqi [Danielle McLean] lemoncurry 1.5.0: now with indieauth!
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@kevinmarks “The web is and will always be the most popular mobile operating system in the world—not iOS or Android.” https://medium.com/swlh/browsers-not-apps-are-the-future-of-mobile-c552752ff75 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/924564071097163776)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "“The web is and will always be the most popular mobile operating system in the world—not iOS or Android.” https://medium.com/swlh/browsers-not-apps-are-the-future-of-mobile-c552752ff75 #indieweb" by Kevin Marks on 2017-10-29 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2017/the-web-is-and-will-always-be-the-most-popular
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Zegnat oodani, it is not so much an experimental feature, as it is something that doesn’t exist in the spec apart from a small FAQ-like section: https://indieweb.org/authorization-endpoint#Redirect_URI_verification
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Zegnat Wouldn’t surprise me if most people haven’t yet realised registering redirect URIs is a thing
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oodani Yeah, that's where I got the info about using it. :P Aaron described it as experimental, but I guess if it's not actually in the spec yet then that's fair.
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Zegnat Ooh, you have a u-pronoun! Time to document!
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oodani I got the idea from your h-card, actually. :3
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Zegnat Darn, I was just typing up to ask where/when you found it. And was hoping you may have come up with it yourself ;)
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oodani I think I found it while searching around for alternatives to the unbelievably terrible p-sex/p-gender-identity combo?
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Zegnat As far as I know, I am the first to introduce u-pronoun and give arguments as to why the old p-pronoun-{case} is undesirable.
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Zegnat The brainstorm is here (where I will add your site as an example): http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card-brainstorming#Pronouns
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Loqi h-card Brainstorming
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oodani Yep, I read your argument as to why p-pronoun-{case} doesn't work and I totally agree. u-pronoun linked to basic examples of usage is so much more usable.
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Zegnat Documented below my example code :) http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card-brainstorming#Pronouns Feel free to edit if you think I’ve presented your use and opinions wrong.
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Loqi h-card Brainstorming
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oodani Looks good. :)
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Zegnat Great! It is a good prompt to get a link to Pronoun Island on there. It is relatively popular on Twitter and Tumblr in my experience. (Though utterly English-centric once again.)
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oodani I like it a lot, although it really ought to support more languages.
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Zegnat What is Pronoun Island?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Pronoun Island" yet. Would you like to create it?
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Zegnat Pronoun Island is a website listing personal pronouns with usage examples.
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Loqi ok
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Zegnat Pronoun Island << [https://github.com/witch-house/pronoun.is/issues/66 Internationalisation] has been a long-standing issue.
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Loqi ok, I added "[https://github.com/witch-house/pronoun.is/issues/66 Internationalisation] has been a long-standing issue." to the "See Also" section of /Pronoun_Island
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Loqi [garbados] #66 Internationalization?
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Zegnat Pronoun Island << IndieWeb example: [https://00dani.me/ 00dani.me]
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Loqi ok, I added "IndieWeb example: [https://00dani.me/ 00dani.me]" to the "See Also" section of /Pronoun_Island
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Zegnat That’s enough documenting for now, I think
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oodani I didn't realise Loqi could do this stuff. That's pretty cool.
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Zegnat Hopefully enough documenting to sneak a mention of pronouns into the weekly podcast (hint-hint schmarty)
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oodani :P
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jeremycherfas My main pronoun beef is silly people who insist that singular they is not allowed.
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oodani Same, those people are obnoxious.
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jeremycherfas Most prescriptivist language people are. Almost by definition.
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oodani Pretty much.
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Zegnat Singular they has snucked into many dictionaries though, its usage goes a long way back. So I see no reason for prescriptivists to ignore that.
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oodani Oddly enough, schema.org handles gender better than standard microformats2. It's… probably the only thing schema.org has ever done well?
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oodani Instead of having a "biological sex" and a "gender identity" there's just one gender field, which can be schema.org/Male, schema.org/Female, or freeform text if neither of those work. And that's really good, actually. Which is weird because schema.org sucks.
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Zegnat The original hCard was basically just vcard codified to HTML. Any limitations come from the vcard spec. Theoretically, everything is freeform text in mf2.
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Zegnat Also note that the vCard reference spec allows for freeform gender: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6350#section-6.2.7
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Zegnat So that pretty much matches what schema has exactly. It might just be badly described in the h-card spec
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oodani In the h-card spec it's two separate fields, p-sex and p-gender-identity, since the gender field in vCard has two components.
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oodani Dropping p-sex and changing the field to *just* be the freeform text part would be ideal, honestly.
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[kevinmarks] Well, the fields are optional. So use p- gender-identity
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Zegnat Yep, only use p-sex if you for some odd reason must classify your sex with a single letter.
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Zegnat Honestly, I only have it on my site because I am a completionist.
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oodani :P
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oodani I'm not really a fan of the *name* p-gender-identity either. It could just be p-gender.
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Zegnat That I agree with
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[kevinmarks] The problem with schema's approach (inherited from opensocial, so mea culpa) is that having free text with 2 predefined values encourages engineers to neaten things up by just using the predefined ones
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[kevinmarks] Especially those who think in terms of enums
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oodani Oh damn. Good point. :(
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Zegnat Then again, I also use the class name “p-identity-manness”, so I can’t comment on what names are good and not ;)
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Zegnat Honestly, it should only be freeform. That’s what e.g. MetaFilter does
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[kevinmarks] When we were adding this to vcard a few years ago, gender identity was a more common term
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oodani Ah. Not so much now.
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[kevinmarks] Which is a sign of progress, I think.
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Zegnat I think a shift to simplifying all those terms is relatively recent though. Much how I am seeing more and more people abolish “preferred pronoun”, as it should just be “pronoun”. (Not a preference, but a statement of fact.)
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oodani Yeah, I'm very much in favour of that change.
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Zegnat Same. Although as someone who never gets misgendered anyway, my stake in this is incredibly low.
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oodani I'm kinda leaning towards using a field "u-gender", akin to u-pronoun? Since that enables linking to a gender page with more info.
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[kevinmarks] Sarah Dopp's post to the vcard mailing list really helped shape this https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vcarddav/current/msg01778.html
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[kevinmarks] And if you read some of the replies you can see how we got the current compromise
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Zegnat I’ll have to make some time to dive into that, thanks [kevinmarks]!
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oodani "Sex is straightforward" is an astonishing way to respond to a post pointing out that intersex people exist, honestly.
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Zegnat oodani, I think I prefer a textual representation for gender, so not sure how I feel about u- in that context.
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[kevinmarks] Adopting some 1970s medical record standard with numeric sex was the original proposal, before we got involved. And this is only 7 years ago
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oodani Jeepers.
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oodani Zegnat, hmm, a textual representation of gender is good, but also, you *have* already got a gender page on your site. :P
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Zegnat Yes, that one has a p-name though, so it all parses into a single textual representation too ;)
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Zegnat And really, my gender page is one big experiment, haha
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Loqi nice
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oodani Fair enough. :3
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Zegnat I’ve seen so little adoption of Sam Killermann’s Genderbread Person, it saddens me a little. Because it does make people think whenever I show my gender page.
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oodani Honestly I'm a little uncomfortable with it, mostly because "biological sex" is one of the axes. I really think the whole idea of "biological sex" is something we should be moving away from.
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Zegnat Yeah, it is a bit of a weird one. I think it is meant to convey physical characteristics. And as part of the model it can make for a good contrast to expression.
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[kevinmarks] Do we need a new term for what twitter does? "marketing gender"?
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[kevinmarks] Where they assign you a gender based on what they want to sell you things?
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oodani "assigned gender at tweet"?
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Zegnat Do you have an article on them doing that, [kevinmarks]?
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Zegnat Also, oodani, you might like this one: http://wiki.zegnat.net/sexes - my go to table for whenever someone tells me biological sex is binary.
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Loqi [Sam Killermann] A Guide to Gender
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Zegnat That’s not at all the title of the page, but, thanks Loqi?
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oodani Oh wow, I definitely like that table.
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oodani :3
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[kevinmarks] https://readwrite.com/2014/09/03/twitter-analytics-demographics-gender-algorithm-male-female-followers/
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Loqi Liam Adelson
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[kevinmarks] https://readwrite.com/2014/09/03/twitter-analytics-demographics-gender-algorithm-male-female-followers/
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Loqi Liam Adelson
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[kevinmarks] Oops
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[kevinmarks] https://blog.twitter.com/marketing/en_us/a/2012/gender-targeting-for-promoted-products-now-available.html
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[kevinmarks] Maybe "targeted gender" is the term
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Zegnat Added Twitter to http://microformats.org/wiki/gender-examples#sites_and_services
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Loqi gender examples
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Zegnat Thanks for the links [kevinmarks]
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[kevinmarks] They now let you see and edit your assigned gender
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[kevinmarks] https://www.teenvogue.com/story/people-react-twitter-guessing-gender
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[kevinmarks] https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/product/2017/Building-new-data-controls-and-updating-our-privacy-policy.html
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Zegnat Now I remember why I do not like editing the microformats wiki: recaptcha.
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Zegnat Also, apparently there is an IndieWeb tool to check your Twitter network’s gender: https://www.proporti.onl/
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@martijnvdven @jkphl are there any plans towards a Leaders Summit in Berlin yet? 5 people have stated an interest on-site. https://indieweb.org/Planning#Planned (twitter.com/_/status/924592373245599744)
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sknebel oodani: re woodwind login, bug seems to be here: https://github.com/kylewm/flask-micropub/issues/5
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Loqi [sknebel] #5 Handle relative links to endpoints
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oodani Yep, looks like that's the spot. :o
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raretrack trying to set up an indiewebified Wordpress instance to use in parallel with my Known instance
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GWG raretrack, need help?
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raretrack i'm just going through the indiewebify.me tests at the moment - webmentions test doesn't seem to work at the moment
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tantek raretrack, might get better help on debugging webmentions in #indieweb-dev
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raretrack thanks tantek, i'll try there if I stay stuck
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aaronpk why do i always struggle figuring out how to display webmentions
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tantek aaronpk because webmentions are plumbing, and trying to figure out how to display plumbing is not only really hard, it's the wrong question!
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk i meant how to display comments
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tantek also sounds like #indieweb-dev :)
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aaronpk nah purely talking about the visual aspect of it
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tantek that's still talking about creating the design
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tantek you're talking about how do you create the design, rather than how do you use it
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tantek creating content -> #indieweb, creating design/UX/code -> #indieweb-dev is kinda how I was splitting it
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raretrack so think I've got webmentions working now - my WP test post https://testblog.raretrack.uk/test/test-post/ picked up my reply from my Known instance at https://raretrack.uk/2017/reply-test
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Loqi [admin] Test post
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Zegnat Woo!
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@huffduffer Episode 5: Homebrew Website Club - Percolator https://huffduffer.com/JeremyCherfas/438940 (twitter.com/_/status/924695955831652352)
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@schmarty Your &lt; 10min update on the #IndieWeb community! This Week in the IndieWeb audio edition for Oct 21st - 27th, 2017. https://martymcgui.re/2017/10/29/163907/ (twitter.com/_/status/924738083538591744)
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tantek ooh!
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@huffduffer This Week in the IndieWeb Audio Edition • October 21st - 27th, 2017 https://huffduffer.com/schmarty/438960 (twitter.com/_/status/924738929143828482)
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schmarty your interview is in this one, tantek :}
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oodani How should shortpermalink URLs be marked up in an h-entry? It looks like using <link rev="canonical"> is a fairly standard way to indicate them on a page-wide basis, but that doesn't work on a feed page.
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oodani An extra u-url with no u-uid? That doesn't indicate that the URL's the short one, though.
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oodani Perhaps the URL's physical length is a better way to indicate that. :P
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tantek oodani: rev=canonical is deprecated and discouraged: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-canonical#rev-canonical - for more markup discussion, let's follow-up in #indieweb-dev
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Loqi rel-canonical
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oodani Eek.
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oodani Fair enough.
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Zegnat If it is a shortlink: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-shortlink
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Loqi rel="shortlink"
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snarfed rel-shortlink++
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Loqi rel-shortlink has 1 karma
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snarfed bridgy supports it. https://brid.gy/about#short-link
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oodani Good to know. :3