#indieweb 2019-02-06

2019-02-06 UTC
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jacky hmm only people you explicitly have in a "home" feed?
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aaronpk Umm actually I really only follow content from twitter via searches
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aaronpk does that make me a bad friend
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jacky lolol
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[tantek] I once in a while stumble-upon the home screen, see the trash fire, and close
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[kevinmarks] I have a list I mung into a feed with granary and follow in aperture, but I do still use twitter
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[kevinmarks] Though that's partly because my indieweb tool chain broke and I need to cook for myself a bit more.
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[kevinmarks] Does this belong with Facebook criticism? https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1092619825535307776?s=19
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@nytopinion Happy Birthday, Facebook! 15 years today — and what a rollercoaster it has been. We created a friendship anniversary video for Mark Zuckerberg to mark the day. https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1092619825535307776/video/1 (twitter.com/_/status/1092619825535307776)
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[tantek] Sure, decent summary
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[tantek] perhaps literally at the top of /Facebook#Criticism
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jacky posted my first event with Koype: https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/91a264de-be63-46f0-ab98-270c7736ba5a
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Loqi Omidar Network: Tech & Society Solutions Retreat
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jacky it's an actual conference I'm attending
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jacky I think I'd be doing this until I can do arbitrary link importing to Koype (koype doesn't like it if the source page has no mf2)
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jacky kinda going to be demoing what I have for this conf so it'd make sense to use it to promote it lol
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aaronpk Looks nice!
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aaronpk I do think it would benefit from showing the actual date, not just a relative date
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jacky ah, that's some gobbly JS
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jacky any <time datetime=""> gets hit with that relative timing
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jacky found another bug while trying to fix that
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[Vincent] Good morning IndieWeb
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petermolnar when is next VHWC?
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Loqi what
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jeremycherfas Good Morning IndieWeb
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jeremycherfas !tell petermolnar This evening at, I think 19:15 CET
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar ack, and thank you
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Loqi petermolnar: jeremycherfas left you a message 5 minutes ago: This evening at, I think 19:15 CET
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Zegnat Yep some time around there. I’ll probably start setting up around 1900
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jeremycherfas And I'll probably have to leave early, as usual.
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Zegnat Do what you gotta do :)
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Zegnat Still much appreciate anyone showing up whenever they can
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[Marco] Hey indieweb, anyone here going to the IWC in Düsseldorf just before Beyond Tellerrand? 🙂
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[Marco] I'll definitely attend the latter and am thinking about doing IWC on top if my employer let me. 😬
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Zegnat I think there are a number of people here who have expressed interest. I am not able to make it this year.
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[jgmac1106] [Marco] I hope to go but it all hinges on grant money and me winning some
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jgmac1106 !tell Jacky the event looked great. I do wish the title of the event linked to the event page
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[Marco] haven't seen anyone signing up in the wikipage hence I asked here 🙂
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Zegnat There is usually some overflow from beyondtellerand, and those people often aren’t active on the wiki themselves.
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jgmac1106 https://worldbrain.io/
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[kevinmarks] https://youtu.be/2LJc8nqouPM
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jgmac1106 ha ha Kevin I should throw some context in, but digging through source code of memeex it seems to behave a lot like fragmentions, not a perfect match but same basic philisophy.
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Zegnat Is that memex as in treora?
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[jgmac1106] not sure but I want to dig into the code and see if it can be forked into a fragmention web extension for firefox and chrome
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Zegnat I thought that was treora working on that. It is his code I use for my webarchiver. Great for snapshotting a page exactly how it looks in the browser
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jgmac1106 zegnat didn’t realize treora was a person just checked repo, yeah pretty much biggest contributor
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Zegnat Then my memory wasn’t failing me. I think he demoed the browser extension that generated a mindmap of all pages you visited in Düsseldorf
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Zegnat At an IWC
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jgmac1106 https://treora.com/ his website has a rel=“me”
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Zegnat He is also in this channel ;)
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jgmac1106 Who is treora?
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jgmac1106 works as I have been exploring annotations heavily last few weeks trying to figure out how to own mien without a third party service, memex looks like answer, though will still use hyptohesis bc that is where my tribe gathers
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Zegnat Who is Zegnat?
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Loqi Martijn van der Ven is a long-time web tinkerer living in Sweden (CEST or Europe/Stockholm timezone). Pronouns: he or they https://indieweb.org/User:Vanderven.se/martijn/
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jgmac1106 and best I tell it works very similar to fragmentions but takes a snapshot of the entire page
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jgmac1106 zegnat not in chat-names
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Zegnat Just trying to find the event I met him at to see if the demo is online on youtube
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Zegnat I listed all events I attended on my wiki page
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[jgmac1106] Gerben (treora) is a good friend of mine and we orginally spun off our code from his code base. Likely we will add his “freeze-dry” module for page archiving somewhat this year.
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jgmac1106 so it uses the same code base but he is not involved that is why I see the name everywhere
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jgmac1106 Who is Gerben?
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jgmac1106 and memex for them like “smart phone” or “kleenex” doesn’t sayanything about actual tech stack
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Zegnat I think treora demoed https://blog.webmemex.org/ at IWC Berlin 2017. But I can’t find anything concrete right now.
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Zegnat The demo link in the menu there is really interesting
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jgmac1106 and from what I am reading that was the original code base they forked for the annotation tool…yes I think we maybe able to fork this for a fragmention extension for Chrome and Firefox, or better yet /Sawyer other people who share our values
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treora jgmac1106: sorry for the confusion around the projects and names. :)
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treora The word memex is indeed a general concept, it is a little confusing that worldbrain uses it also as its product name. It stems from this article from 1945, worth reading at least section 6: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/#selector(type=TextQuoteSelector,exact=%22memex%22)
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treora Supporting 'precise links' (as I call them) in browsers is something I have worked on in various forms. E.g. this browser extension: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/precise-links/ which follows the fragment identifier syntax postulated in this note: https://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/selector-note/#frags
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[jgmac1106] No confusion, both cool tools. By the way my grandfather had an office supply company and sold Memex machines
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treora amazing, I wonder what those machines did. :)
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[jgmac1106] I think they called fax machines Memex machines for a hot minute... I will try and find out
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Zegnat In part me being confused and thinking worldbrain was somehow coming out of your prototype-fund-work, treora :) Hi, btw!
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[jgmac1106] So it sounds like Memex is almost already fragmentions as we use same rules
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[jgmac1106] And not now but DCMI (folks who oversee Dublin Core) want to add IndieWeb to their new Hugo site when after launch
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treora I have not kept up with WB's Memex and its approach to precise linking; they added it after they forked from my codebase.
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Zegnat fragmention << An [https://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/selector-note/#frags alternative to fragmentions] are part of the Web Annotation spec, these have a [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/precise-links/ browser implementation for Firefox]
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Loqi ok, I added "An [https://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/selector-note/#frags alternative to fragmentions] are part of the Web Annotation spec, these have a [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/precise-links/ browser implementation for Firefox]" to the "See Also" section of /fragmention https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=56269&oldid=47660
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Zegnat Not sure if that is the right place, but wanted to make a note of it as I was recently looking at browser extensions that do something like it
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treora Hi Zegnat. :) The main result of the prototype fund work was freeze-dry; simultaneously, I simplified the WebMemex browser extension to focus only on snapshotting webpages (using freeze-dry).
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treora I personally think the syntax from that Web Annotation note is rather ugly and verbose when you just want to link to a quote, as you can see in the link I gave above: #selector(type=TextQuoteSelector,exact=%22memex%22)
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treora On the other hand, it is nicely versatile, as it allows to serialise any Web Annotation target, e.g. you could point at a region of an image in just the same way.
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Zegnat I still have to update to the new freeze-dry for my archiver. GitHub keeps telling me I have security issues now :P
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treora Github seems to find security issues in every project that uses some javascript build tools. When every tool results in a few hundred dependencies, good chance there is some issue with one of them. (of course one can wonder why do we need so many build tools and dependencies.. I'd gladly see the javascript ecosystem move beyond that somehow)
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Zegnat treora, are you still in Berlin? Planning for the next IndieWebCamp in Berlin has started to take shape. There is a date :)
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[kevinmarks] have you looked at the fragmention equivalent? https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/#%22memex%22%20will%20do
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treora Zegnat: I am no longer in Berlin, but I don't mind excuses to visit it again. :)
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[kevinmarks] or https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/#memex woudl work, though strictly a space is recommended
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Zegnat What is IndieWebCamp Berlin?
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Loqi IndieWebCamp Berlin 2019 will be the fifth in Berlin, likely on 4-5 May 2019 (save the dates!), the weekend before IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf 2019, which is right before the beyond tellerrand conference in Düsseldorf https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp_Berlin
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Zegnat Info ^^^
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[jgmac1106] Zegnat so if a grant comes through Berlin? Or Duesseldorf and Beyond Tellerand? That is tough...
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treora [kevinmarks]: yes fragmention is indeed much prettier for the case when quoting just a piece of text.
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Zegnat I know I can’t do Düsseldorf, so the choice is easy enough for me. I will try and get Berlin locked down this month
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[jgmac1106] Yeah [kevinmarks] I only poked around and it looks like everything is there, and we have ways to include comments and replies treora
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[jgmac1106] All hypothetical but will no grant status in March, Berlin it is. I have friends for decades there I need to meet IRL
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[kevinmarks] I had a weird conversation with the web-annotation people where they said that fragmention claimed the entire frgament namespace, whereas I was suggesting it as a fallback after other more complex things
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Zegnat *cough*thereisnonamespace*cough*
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[jgmac1106] Yeah and I want to get them all working together as hypothes.is is deeply rooted in academic world and now with LTI integration they will be in every major LMS within a year or two
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treora [kevinmarks]: It was a while ago that I looked at it, but I vaguely remember having a similar concern.. It would be nice if one can distinguish fragmentions; considering it a fallback sounds like it could lead to issues when e.g. adding other fragment identifier types in the future.
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Zegnat This feels like a discussion for #indieweb-dev if you all want to go deeper into it :)
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[kevinmarks] well, you . hit the 'container for the thing contained' problem if you're trying to link to the annotation syntax in a page maybe
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[kevinmarks] fair point zegnat
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[cleverdevil] Good morning, IndieWeb!
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[eddie] 👋
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[jgmac1106] Hello [kenbauer] congrats on getting the h-card and the rel=me links working on your homepage
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[jgmac1106] kenbauer++
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Loqi kenbauer has 1 karma over the last year
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[ken] Thanks for pushing me back here [jgmac1106] I was lurking a few years ago.
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[ken] jgmac1106++
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Loqi jgmac1106 has 29 karma in this channel over the last year (107 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] Ken #DoOO and #IndieWeb pretty much launched at same time. Feel like everyone is chasing the same dream but from different angles
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb! It is HWC day today, everyone made their pick of a local coffee shop? :D
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petermolnar so, vHWC on mumble or jitsi?
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sknebel jitsi
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sknebel https://meet.jit.si/hwc
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[tantek] what is Bluehost
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Loqi Bluehost is a web hosting company https://indieweb.org/Bluehost
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[tantek] sooo linkblogs vs bookmarks. Apparently wikipedia calls them "linklogs" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linklog (and has a pretty minimal and confusing page about them!)
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[tantek] (yeah that image has *nothing* to do with the linkblog related definition either! whee!)
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aaronpk haha what i want to remove that image
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[tantek] oh I'm writing a length Talk entry now
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[tantek] haha that image is from http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~coda/docdir/jjk-thesis.pdf
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[tantek] done, feel free to +1 if you care to improve this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Linklog#Split_page_and_disambiguate_two_different_subjects:_linkblog_user_feature,_link_log_CS_construct cc: [jgmac1106] because I know he likes editing Wikipedia 🙂
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[Rose] What may be an interesting twitter thread about passwordless auth: https://twitter.com/tjluoma/status/1093237393027751936
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[Rose] Loqi posted the transcription in dev, is that expected [aaronpk]?
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[Rose] !tell aaronpk Loqi posted a twitter transcript from here in dev, is that expected? It does mention OAuth.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[cleverdevil] Interesting indeed.
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[cleverdevil] I also prefer using my password manager.
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[jgmac1106] Indieauth was trigger
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[Rose] This is an end user discussion. I prefer my PW manager too.
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[Rose] Naturally I 2 factor those services I can. But should someone get into one of these and I use it for auth elsewhere... that's a problem, potentially a big one.
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aaronpk wait what
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Loqi aaronpk: [Rose] left you a message 6 minutes ago: Loqi posted a twitter transcript from here in dev, is that expected? It does mention OAuth.
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[cleverdevil] I wish Apple would add standards-based 2FA, a standalone password manager app for Keychain, etc., directly into iOS.
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aaronpk oh it found it via search and saw "indieauth" so went to dev
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[jgmac1106] Keychain makes me cringe... But that is an MDM, LDAP problem.... Not Apple... But I hate it every 60 days
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[jgmac1106] https://blog.kenbauer.me/2019/02/06/indiewebifying-my-blog/
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[manton] To add to what I said in that Twitter thread, the main problem is that most people don't use passwords managers. And worse, they use the same password for multiple services! So one service gets hacked and now your other accounts are compromised.
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aaronpk yeah I think the "but everyone uses a password manager these days" comments don't acknowledge that people who say that are often in a little tech bubble
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[manton] Yep. I'd be surprised if more than 5% of web users use a password manager.
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[tantek] manton, any thought into adding IndieAuth (provider) support into microblog?
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[manton] I do think Micro.blog can improve beyond email confirmation, though. For example, what you do [aaronpk] for confirming a sign-in to your own site via an iOS notification.
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[jgmac1106] Well password managers fix the one password for everything.... Can't wait for microblog and indieauth
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aaronpk what do you mean [tantek]? it's been there for a while now
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[tantek] or vice versa for folks who use their own domain with microblog
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[manton] [tantek] It is an IndieAuth provider now.
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[jgmac1106] So many times I have wanted to post but then I realized I would have to sign in and... Then my inbox... So many scary things there I avoid
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[tantek] ah - not documented on /Micro.blog
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[jgmac1106] Not provider a provideee
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[jgmac1106] Not that is a word
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[tantek] aaronpk, if "for a while now", do you remember when? worth adding to https://indieweb.org/Micro.blog#Features with a date since
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[tantek] presumably you mean beyond rel=me support, which is already documented there
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aaronpk https://manton.micro.blog/2018/07/02/indieauth-for-microblog.html
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aaronpk added to the wiki
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[manton] Thanks!
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[jgmac1106] Weird, I never see it as an option... Goes to make sure he has rel=me for microblog in his h-card
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[jgmac1106] Needed something to work on for HWC... Might as well fix that
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[eddie] [jgmac1106] the indieauth for micro.blog is for someone who is already logged in to micro.blog to use that url for logging in to client sites (ex: wiki or micropub)
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[eddie] not vice-versa
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[jgmac1106] Yes I want to use another provider to login to micro.blog but I am going to add micro blog to my h-card to log in with that
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[tantek] Odd I've never seen that work (microblog as IndieAuth) despite having a rel=me to my mb profile
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[tantek] A-ha my https://micro.blog/t profile does not have rel=me on the link to my home page
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aaronpk it only works for hosted micro.blog accounts
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aaronpk and doesn't have anything to do with rel=me anymore
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[tantek] and worse I can't sign into mb any more - it doesn't recognize my email address
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[tantek] aaronpk that distinction makes zero sense from a user persepective
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[manton] [tantek] Uh oh, hmm.
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[tantek] clearly I have a profile there https://micro.blog/t - clearly at some point I "signed in" to create it / edit it, therefore I have a way to sign into micro.blog therefore it is a reasonable way for me as a user to complete an IndieAuth sign-in
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aaronpk i'm not sure what you're trying to do tantek lol
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[manton] [tantek] I'll have it send you the email to sign in... Might've been registered using a different email address than your normal email.
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aaronpk most people are trying to connect micropub apps to micro.blog
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aaronpk I don't have a hosted micro.blog, so I have no reason to do that, so I also don't expect to be able to use my micro.blog account as an identity to sign in to things like the wiki either
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[tantek] aaronpk what I do with Twitter and IndieAuth lol
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[manton] Signing in to edit the wiki should work too. But yeah, it requires a hosted account so that you have a blog URL to use for signing in.
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[tantek] but with micro.blog
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[tantek] manton - I tried both my "normal" email, and my kickstarter email that micro.blog sent an invitation to. Neither was recognized
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aaronpk I don't know what you do with twitter and indieauth
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[tantek] I sign into the wiki
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aaronpk you sign in to the wiki with twitter via relmeauth, not indieauth
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[tantek] oh interesting, *that* email. ok
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sknebel aaronpk: you can also use micro.blog as an indieauth provider for an external blog: https://www.manton.org/2018/07/04/indieauth-for-external.html
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Loqi IndieAuth for external blogs
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aaronpk oh cool
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aaronpk well that's still a bit different from what tantek is trying to do
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sknebel yes
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aaronpk also this won't work if you also have your own micropub stuff set up on your site since it becomes your indieauth provider
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Indieweb Publisher WordPress Theme Now Available to Try" https://david.shanske.com/2019/02/06/indieweb-publisher-wordpress-theme-now-available-to-try/
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aaronpk took a little timelapse at HWC, was frustrated that I don't actually have an interface to post videos to my site, so schmarty helped me rig up a Shortcuts Micropub client to do it!