#indieweb 2020-01-22

2020-01-22 UTC
[jgmac1106], turona, GWG_, [manton], kensp, KartikPrabhu, rEnr3n, jeremycherfas, opal, petermolnar, blueyed, wolftune, delli3_, beko, piperswe461, gRegorLove and Decobus joined the channel; ShehabTweelDisco left the channel
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GWG_ Morning
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GWG_ I have that underscore again, darn
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whjms hate it when my IRC bouncer hangs
rEnr3n, dellie__, sukil, gRegorLove, krychu, jihaisse and [tantek] joined the channel; nickodd left the channel
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "The security risk of embedding images from external sites" https://jlelse.blog/thoughts/2020/01/security-risk-embedding/
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[Rose] Do we have a super simple introduction to the IndieWeb somewhere which explains what the idea is, and then has short summaries such as "Webmentions: This is how you can write a reply on your website, and send it to another website (like Twitter) to tell them of your reply"?
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[tantek] the home page
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[tantek] also "Webmentions" aren't really a good user-centric thing to introduce
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[tantek] users want features, not to learn about plumbing
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[tantek] actually this chat -> meta
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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[tantek] Does anyone post a personal environmental impact statement on their website somewhere? Like for themselves in total, not just /green_computing or their website itself
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jgmac1106 morning all
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jgmac1106 I have never seen any int the community, footprint is a hard calculation, have seen others do post on reducing their inmpact but never a quantified foootprint on a site
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[tantek] the difficulty of footprint calculation should not block you from documenting your impactful activities
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[tantek] e.g. # of flight miles flown is still useful to document, even if you can't do the math on exactly how much carbon that outputs
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[tantek] similar with say, pounds of flesh consumed
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jgmac1106 then aaronpk does that rhiaro does that
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KartikPrabhu I'll take one pound of flesh!
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jgmac1106 miles flown, I guess i could do miles driven and gallons consumed
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] nope, neither does cumulative per year stats like that
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[tantek] or other per time period (month etc.)
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] yes, gallons of gas consumed/purchased would be a very good indicator
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[tantek] from the sources I looked up, there's fairly similar results (19.4-19.6 pounds of CO2 from a 1 gallon of gas)
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[tantek] I could actually do gallons consumed as well because I keep all my fuel receipts separately
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[tantek] flight miles flown is much harder because you have to know the amount of fuel consumed for the flight, and then presumably divide that by the # of people on the flight to get the per person fuel consumed, then multiply that by the type of fuel's carbon emission amount
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[tantek] so unless you're tracking the # of people on the flight, you don't actually know the effective CO2 output that you're responsible for
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jgmac1106 yeah I would just stop as miles flown rather than that granular, me probably would more do a narrative post osn steps I am doing on reducing rather than try to quantify..could be a limitation of skill as much as philosophy
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jgmac1106 …could be a cool idea for a micropub client, my climate tracker
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[tantek] presumably the same APIs that aaronpk is using to get his other flight stats could be used to get # of passengers on the flight
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jgmac1106 realize I track my miles too, for tax purposes, well not personal ones just work, but I do have an AWD v6 vehicle, and a long commute, probably my biggest impact beyond still eating chicken
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jgmac1106 this paper was accepted: https://jgregorymcverry.com/festivaloflearningproposal going to try and compare footprint of our camps to major conferences
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jgmac1106 hmmm must be somethign worng with my markup, or the multi author post made it not unfurl..
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jgmac1106 moving to dev to explore that…actually 6:20 got wake up the house, enjoy day all, be around later…..maybe a carbon page bbe a good session or goal for Austin
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[Rose] Do airlines publish the data on how many people were on each flight?
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jeremycherfas I don't think it is super relevant for their corporate offsetting, the price of which doesn't seem to change with how many people have booked either. I think the only reason one would want to divide flight by number of passengers would be for something like Tantek's personal scoreboard.
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[Rose] Which is why I don't think the data would be available
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jeremycherfas Agreed. And of course, if Tantek is on the flight, he can just count the passengers. Same as for busses and trains.
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jeremycherfas S /just//
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sgreger I have been pondering about something like that last year, but rather than documenting co2 created, I would document "co2 saved".
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sgreger Accuracy issue remains, but I see it as a more active documentation of my commitment to do my share.
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jgmac1106 tantek bringing the “stream and/or homepage discussion here” I wonder if it is different users, those after a stream may already have or atleast they know they could have a personal homepage online, those who never have focus in on the homepage as identity
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jgmac1106 I liked your reference to them as “art projects” in a way, but that is why folks choose weebly and wix, page builders they can grok from a 30 second add
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jgmac1106 ad*
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jgmac1106 doug did a microcast by recasting a snippet of Chris Dixon podcast with Andreessen Horowitz https://thoughtshrapnel.com/2020/01/22/microcast-084/ lot of rss talk->then goes crypto
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Loqi [Doug Belshaw] I don’t often listen to the a16z podcast but for some reason I decided to listen to an episode about the past, present, and future of the internet while out for a long walk. https://thoughtshrapnel.com/2020/01/22/microcast-084/ https://thoughtshrapnel.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/blockchain-3750157_1280.jpg
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[davidmead] [tantek] It’s a pity we’ve never got anything to replace Edenbee. I really liked seeing how much my plane trips “cost” in Co2 and creating goals to try and offset it
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aaronpk I don't think number of passengers is shown in those flight stats websites, that seems like data they don't need or want to give out for various reasons
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aaronpk probably easiest to assume some percentage booked for all flights and count the number of seats on the plane
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[Rose] You could probably also ask the cabin crew what the load is, they might not share the information but you could ask
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[Rose] Though that's not accounting for goods being transported in the hold
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[tantek] aaronpk, I've seen a massive variance in the number of passengers (% of plane)
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[tantek] easily a 5-10x swing in how much per person carbon
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[jgmac1106] I would make it easy and just use sold out based on plane size
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[tantek] so I really dislike the unscientific averaging
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] nah that severely understates it
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[tantek] what is Edenbee?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Edenbee" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Edenbee is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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aaronpk Most of the flights I've been on have been I'd say about 80-90% occupied
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[tantek] On United at least, you can look at the seat map on their app, which shows empty seats, even after take-off, so presumably you can do the math from there
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[jgmac1106] More probably overstates your footprint but probably a better estimate with error than no estimate at all
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aaronpk i think only one flight they had to tell people not to move seats or it would throw the balance off
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] not sure I agree. bad data is often *worse* than no data
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[tantek] at least with no data, you know to keep asking questions
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[tantek] bad data is how you come to wrong conclusions
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[jgmac1106] Gonna estimate my commute atleast. I fly maybe twice a year so not as important for me to get it perfect
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[tantek] hmm, maybe I'll start screenshotting the seat maps just after take-off
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[Rose] I had one of those years ago when flying out of Luxembourg, but that kind of flight is rare
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[tantek] that could be a way to "prove" the passenger count on a plane
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[jgmac1106] https://calculator.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.aspx?tab=3
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[tantek] wow I really should be screenshotting that and saving it to my Swarm check-in of the flight
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[tantek] that could be collective / shared data too
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[jgmac1106] Interesting they draw difference on seat type... Wonder why
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[tantek] yeah I don't believe that
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[Rose] The seatmap might not be accurate if people miss the connection, and sometimes a lot of people misconnect at once
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[jgmac1106] There are directions. I guess it is based on cabin weight per passenger... First class passengers take up far more weight wirh bigger seats, champagne bottles, heated towels etc
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aaronpk 😂
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] ++ amazing PDF find. thank you. can you provide the link where you got that
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Loqi [jgmac1106] has 20 karma in this channel over the last year (95 in all channels)
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[tantek] note the references in that PDF to weight
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[tantek] so if you pack lighter, you are using less fuel ergo carbon output
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[tantek] also that "separate cabin impact" reasoning is an excellent reason to always use upgrade coupons instead of actually buying a business class ticket, because you can still count yourself as economy even if you get upgraded (you're just making use of extra stuff that was already on the flight, not because you paid / caused demand for it)
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[jgmac1106] Came from the link I posted above
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[jgmac1106] Also https://www.carbonfootprint.com/integrate.html
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jgmac1106 I can’t find the link, came somewhere on that page
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[tantek] ok I couldn't find it
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[tantek] I still want to distinguish the environmental impact of your website vs using your website to publish your personal environmental impact
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[tantek] I feel the /green_computing only addresses the former, and I'm more interested in the latter
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jgmac1106 let me search my history on Android, was in the car…environmental impact of website would be an h2 under your personal environmental impact h1, as well as travel, heat, electric etc
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jgmac1106 Do you think I should divide my heating oil by number of residents in my house or am I responsible for the footprint of dependants?
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[tantek] I think the folks making the decisions are responsible for the footprint
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[tantek] and if there's more than one person deciding, then presumably they divide it up (equally) among themselves
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dazinism Foot printing is somewhat difficult
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dazinism Its hard to know where to draw the line
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[tantek] which is why I prefer documenting the activities rather than pretending to have accurate pounds of carbon numbers
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dazinism And where its drawn has implications
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[tantek] draw it according to agency.
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dazinism [tantek]: yeah fair
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dazinism > draw it according to agency.
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dazinism Not sure I understand?
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[tantek] agency, ability to decide
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dazinism And then there's the whole issue of why track carbon vs. other output/pollution which has effects
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[tantek] agreed, carbon is just one aspect of environmental impacts
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jgmac1106 because of melting planet and that is our biggest source where individuals can make and track personal changes
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[tantek] one of the reasons I really dislike the framing of "carbon.txt"
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dazinism But I appreciate its probably the best methodology for somewhat quantifying probable environmental impact
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[tantek] I disagree, some of the damage from meat farming are *worse* (deforestation), clothing production (pollution that kills ecosystems, water depletion)
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dazinism [tantek]: what you disagreeing with?
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[tantek] "best methodology"
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dazinism Not sure of anything else that attempts?
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dazinism The meat thing is complex. there's a whole range of reasons land is deforested. Often for plantations
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dazinism Also some methods of rearing animals for consumption can have huge benefits to soil health (and in turn the amount of carbon locked into that soil)
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dazinism Generally the industrialised farming methods, generally used by big landowners / farmers tends to be terrible for the environment in one way or another
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dazinism Somewhat thankfully there are other methods and they are somewhat widely in used. Bit hard to quantify.
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dazinism This report gives an interesting/unusual perspective
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dazinism https://www.grain.org/article/entries/4929-hungry-for-land-small-farmers-feed-the-world-with-less-than-a-quarter-of-all-farmland
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dazinism While many small / sustenance farmers growers wont be using the best methods to foster good soil health, there's reasonable chance that they wont be cultivating as heavily or using as much chemicals as many industrialised farmers do.
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dazinism Sorry for wall of text...
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jgmac1106 yeah dazinism that is hard for me as I try to source as much meat and eggs from neighbors, walk to the farm on a nice day and grab a dozen eggs maybe some chicken, I don’t eat red meat but many neighbors split a share of a cow
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jgmac1106 and then what would be the carbon impact of venison given away? I think may just go with narrative with sprinkles of data where possible
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jgmac1106 yes meat industry is the bad guy, highest impact on 6th mass extinction and and contribute to 20% of greenhouse gas: https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-environ-020411-130608 and reducing meat is required to save world: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0594-0
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[KevinMarks] but it does vary by kind of meat - you don't factory farm sheep and goats, they live on marginal land
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dazinism Yeah think its possibly more granular than that. There can be a big difference depending on how animals are reared, What they are fed. But generally the methods used for meat that can be bought cheap is pretty terrible
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KartikPrabhu -> chat ?
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[tantek] KartikPrabhu IndieWeb point being any conventions for tracking / publishing environmental impact should go beyond just "carbon" as implied by the very naming of "carbon.txt"
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[tantek] I agree # chat channel is better for diving into detailed discussions of which meat etc. until it has an impact on what you publish
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[jgmac1106] we did get chatty though, but it was in the difficulty of quantifying for our sites...my fault for getting off track
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[jgmac1106] oops tantek already said that
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[tantek] does anyone have a page documenting their personal environmental impact, even if it is limited to carbon? (beyond the impact of their website obviously)
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[tantek] I'm still trying to gather examples of that before making something up 😛
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[Rose] Sound's like something anomalily might publish
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[tantek] good point
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[tantek] environmental impact could be a subset of annual personal statistics/metrics
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[Rose] Where did that rogue apostrophe come from? I blame Loqi
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[Rose] gives Loqi blame
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[tantek] who was the guy that did those fancy looking personal annual reports
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[tantek] Feltron?
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aaronpk gives Loqi a rogue apostrophe
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Loqi hearts the rogue apostrophe
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[Rose] Chris
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[tantek] lol
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aaronpk nick felton aka Feltron
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aaronpk http://feltron.com
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[tantek] I feel like we've documented his work before
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aaronpk hm there are definitely plenty of examples of personal annual reports on the web...
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[Rose] Hence me thinking of anomalily 😄
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[tantek] what is an annual report
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "annual report" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "annual report is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[Rose] what is annual
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "annual" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "annual is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[Rose] what is report
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Loqi Report abuse (AKA report inappropriate) is a feature in many (most?) silos for notifying the silo owners that a specific user, post, or comment is abusive https://indieweb.org/report
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[Rose] what is review
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Loqi A review is a post evaluating a product or service, usually involving a written description, sometimes with summary numerical evaluations, also known as just a rating if it’s just a single numerical value or iconic representation like stars (★★★★☆) https://indieweb.org/review
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[Rose] Hmmm, none of those were what I was thinking I might find, but worth a shot at least.
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aaronpk annual report is a summary of an individual's activities throughout the year, often including statistics and charts, or narrative text
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk ok that's not great but it's a start
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[Rose] Something is better than nothing
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aaronpk ok added some examples
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[tantek] wow only Feltron on the wiki: /2014/SF/apps
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[tantek] what are metrics
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Loqi exercise is a (typically) passive post type that represents some form of physical activity https://indieweb.org/metrics
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[tantek] heh
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[yo] regarding consumption, I think I can do that. I keep a food journal via fitbit and got my transit + flight info
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[tantek] I feel like with companies doing environmental impact reports / disclosures, as individuals we can too, and hopefully do an even better job
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[tantek] alright, sounds like no one is doing it yet
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[KevinMarks] there is an insidious nature to it - "measure your carbon footprint" is a tactic by the fossil fuel industries to distract from "it's basically a handful of companies"
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[tantek] seemingly some companies are calling it "sustainability" rather than environmental impact and that makes me suspicious
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[tantek] what is environmental impact
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "environmental impact" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "environmental impact is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] environmental impact is a summary [[page]] describing that person (or entity’s) effect on the environment, often with annual [[metrics]] sometimes as part of a broader [[annual report]], and or describing their daily (or recent) activities and practices that effect the environment, typically with an intent to reduce or minimize such effects.
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Loqi ok
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[tantek] environmental impact << Corporate example: https://www.apple.com/environment/
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Loqi ok, I added "Corporate example: https://www.apple.com/environment/" to a brand new "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67968&oldid=67967
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[tantek] environmental impact << Corp example: https://sustainability.google/
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Loqi ok, I added "Corp example: https://sustainability.google/" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67969&oldid=67968
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[tantek] environmental impact << Corp example: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/corporate-responsibility/sustainability
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Loqi ok, I added "Corp example: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/corporate-responsibility/sustainability" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67970&oldid=67969
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[tantek] environmental impact << Corp example: https://sustainability.fb.com/
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Loqi ok, I added "Corp example: https://sustainability.fb.com/" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67971&oldid=67970
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[Michael_Beckwit coincidentally, i have a recent blog post for my employer on this topic + websites https://maintainn.com/eco-friendly-website/
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[tantek] ok that's enough for now. if anyone has an "environmental impact" page, please add it
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[tantek] environmental impact << green computing
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Loqi ok, I added "[[green computing]]" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67972&oldid=67971
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[tantek] green computing << environmental impact
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Loqi ok, I added "[[environmental impact]]" to the "See Also" section of /green_computing https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67973&oldid=67435
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[tantek] green computing << https://maintainn.com/eco-friendly-website/
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Loqi There was a problem editing the wiki! Invalid CSRF token.
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[tantek] sheesh
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[tantek] green computing << https://maintainn.com/eco-friendly-website/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://maintainn.com/eco-friendly-website/" to the "See Also" section of /green_computing https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67974&oldid=67973
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[Michael_Beckwit aww yiss
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[tantek] [Michael_Beckwith] the environmental impact of your website itself is only a small part of your overall environmental impact. today's discussion has been more about the latter
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[Michael_Beckwit gotcha
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[jgmac1106] I knew I saw something on Amy's website not an annual report just an environment tag: v
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[jgmac1106] https://rhiaro.co.uk/tags/environment
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[tantek] better than nothing
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[tantek] environmental impact << {{rhiaro}}’s posts about environmental impact: https://rhiaro.co.uk/tags/environment
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Loqi ok, I added "{{rhiaro}}’s posts about environmental impact: https://rhiaro.co.uk/tags/environment" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67975&oldid=67972
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[tantek] environmental impact << Maybe useful: http://myfootprintcalculator.com/
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Loqi ok, I added "Maybe useful: http://myfootprintcalculator.com/" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67976&oldid=67975
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[tantek] environmental impact << https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_environmental_impact_accounting
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Loqi ok, I added "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_environmental_impact_accounting" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67977&oldid=67976
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[tantek] environmental impact << https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_footprint
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Loqi ok, I added "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_footprint" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67978&oldid=67977
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[tantek] environmental impact << https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_statement
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Loqi ok, I added "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_statement" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67979&oldid=67978
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[tantek] environmental impact << https://serc.berkeley.edu/prioritize-your-environmental-impact-a-guide-youve-never-seen-before/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://serc.berkeley.edu/prioritize-your-environmental-impact-a-guide-youve-never-seen-before/" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67980&oldid=67979
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[tantek] environmental impact << https://www.cdc.gov/sustainability/lifestyle/index.htm
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Loqi ok, I added "https://www.cdc.gov/sustainability/lifestyle/index.htm" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67981&oldid=67980
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[tantek] environmental impact << https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_assessment
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Loqi ok, I added "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_assessment" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67982&oldid=67981
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[tantek] metrics << environmental impact
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Loqi ok, I added "[[environmental impact]]" to the "See Also" section of /metrics https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67983&oldid=67966
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[tantek] annual report << metrics
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Loqi ok, I added "[[metrics]]" to a new "See Also" section of /annual_report https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67984&oldid=67965
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[tantek] annual report << environmental impact
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Loqi ok, I added "[[environmental impact]]" to the "See Also" section of /annual_report https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67985&oldid=67984
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[tantek] environmental impact << Corporate Example: http://www.boeing.com/principles/environment/index.page
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Loqi ok, I added "Corporate Example: http://www.boeing.com/principles/environment/index.page" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67986&oldid=67982
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[tantek] well that's a start
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[jgmac1106] tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 16 karma in this channel over the last year (145 in all channels)
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[tantek] there was a session at IWC Brighton on this
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[tantek] environmental impact << Related session: [[2019/Brighton/iwcxr|IWC Brighton 2019: IndieWebCamp and the Climate Crisis]]
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Loqi ok, I added "Related session: [[2019/Brighton/iwcxr|IWC Brighton 2019: IndieWebCamp and the Climate Crisis]]" to the "See Also" section of /environmental_impact https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67987&oldid=67986
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[tantek] 2019/Brighton/iwcxr << environmental impact
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Loqi ok, I added "[[environmental impact]]" to the "See Also" section of /2019/Brighton/iwcxr https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67988&oldid=65941
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takev[m] Is there anything wrong with introducing a new microformat type to my website that isn't used anywhere else (yet)? I don't imagine it would break anything that parses my site provided that the existing standardized classed aren't touched.
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[yo] people do that all the time
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GWG_ takev[m]: For what purpose?
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[yo] aaron does it for eats
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[yo] for whatever, I'd guess tbh
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GWG_ More....what type do you want to introduce
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takev[m] GWG_: I was contemplating five star ratings, and how subjective they are. For instance, you and I might both rate something 4 stars, but that may mean something very different to both of us. So I wanted to introduce a map to give context to each level of rating, and possibly put it in my h-card to make the guideline to my particular critical lens easy to reference.
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[yo] I think we have something like that
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[yo] what are ratings
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ratings" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "ratings is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[yo] what is review
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Loqi A review is a post evaluating a product or service, usually involving a written description, sometimes with summary numerical evaluations, also known as just a rating if it’s just a single numerical value or iconic representation like stars (★★★★☆) https://indieweb.org/review
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GWG_ We have p-rating, which is a value from 1-5 indicating a rating for an item, 5 being the best
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GWG_ p-best, which defines the best rating value, and p-worst which defines the worst rating value
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Loqi hey GWG_, would you mind moving this conversation to #indieweb-dev? thanks!
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GWG_ I can take a hink
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GWG_ hint
gRegorLove, likus, wolftune, [tantek], obensource, jgmac1106, kensp, turona, [manton], [KevinMarks], opal, KartikPrabhu and wiedi joined the channel; leg left the channel