#indieweb 2020-05-16

2020-05-16 UTC
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[Molly] [chrisaldrich] thanks for the feedback, I haven’t yet documented on the indieweb... I need to look more into doing this - I should have time over the next few weeks or so:)
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[Molly] Also sadly the notes can’t be logged yet. It’s something I’m planning on working on. I think it requires setting up a database and I couldn’t find much documentation on it, I’m very much still a beginner at web development / coding in general and learning everything as I go :)
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[chrisaldrich] [Molly] what have you built it in/with?
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jacky I don't know if this is a dev-y thing but I think about it a lot
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jacky so let's say I have a post and I expose incoming reactions
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jacky there's nothing really stopping a site from saying it had like 2 million shares since it's just markup on their end
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jacky we have a lot of trust in people to represent things truthfully (which is dope!) but I'm wondering what would verification or even presenting some sort of it would look like
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jacky especially since surfacing that many links to a post would make it for a very big page
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jacky what I was thinking about doing was having a slight extension to my webmention endpoint to query for said webmentions
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[tantek] Jacky, this is a good channel for it because it’s better to start with UI analysis. How do other systems “prove” their stats like that?
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[tantek] From a user perspective, how can you verify the number of replies or likes on a post?
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aaronpk In the case of silos, the user trusts the silo to not fake the number
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aaronpk huge example of when this failed: facebook's faking of video view stats to advertisers
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aaronpk old school indie example: page view counters on web pages
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[tantek] Aaronpk nah you don’t have to trust the silo to not fake the number
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[tantek] You can click it and actually view the list of likes or reposts
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[jjdelc] Each reaction needs to be a webmention and link back to their source post
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[snarfed] and then click through to each user and (depending on the silo) see if they did like the post...
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[snarfed] ...but aaronpk still has a point in that you're still trusting the silo to honestly represent what each user did
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[tantek] Eg Twitter or IG
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[snarfed] that trust is distributed in the indieweb, since you instead click through to each response's post on its user's domain
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aaronpk Pretty sure you don't get the complete list on twitter or IG anymore, at least above a certain number
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[tantek] Well in Twitter it Flickr’s case you can actually look a user’s list of favorites
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[snarfed] and you're also still trusting that if twitter or flickr says a user liked something, they actually did. single point of trust
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[snarfed] which in practice is fine and works. just fun that trust is _also_ distributed in indieweb, along with ownership, etc
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[tantek] Sorta. Because it’s publicly viewable, there’s a certain accountability through transparency
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[snarfed] sure
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[snarfed] on indieweb sites, the same clicking through to source responses on their authors' domains is the verification that jacky was missing
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[snarfed] impractical if there are 2M, but still technically possible
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[tantek] Trust is both about verifiability, and the many eyes effect. If many eyes can view it then if it was false (a bug) chances are someone would point it out.
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[snarfed] right. which is more effective for overall trust in the silo in general, over time, than any single response
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[tantek] Sure verifying 2M isn’t humanly reasonable
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aaronpk If that were true there'd be a lot less fake news
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aaronpk re: "someone would point it out"
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[snarfed] aaronpk "did Bob like this post" is a way different and simpler question than "is this news article 'true'"
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aaronpk Sure but my point was that expecting people to investigate or point out false claims is not something that should be relied on
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[snarfed] agreed. different incentives and expectations than open source's "all bugs are shallow" etc
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[tantek] Lol that’s not how misinformation works aaronpk. It also lacks in citations / links so it’s not transparent to many eyes
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[tantek] Misinfo usually mixes facts with lies to trick people into believing the lies. Plus they’re usually more complex assertions than just “a number”
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[tantek] Having a list of likes or reposts that you click thru to the original like or repost makes them verifiable
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aaronpk Assuming someone goes thru the work of verifying
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aaronpk which is my point, that most people don't
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[tantek] When things are trivial to verify, there’s more chance someone will
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[tantek] That’s the difference with misinfo, usually that stuff is about harder to falsify things
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[tantek] Comparing them as if they’re the same is an error of assuming same labor when it’s not
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[tantek] Heck with indieweb likes, a crawler could verify them, never mind a human trivially so
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[tantek] Not so with misinfo
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jacky catching up
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jacky aaronpk: lol re: pointing it out & fake news
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jacky but yeah okay then
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jacky I guess then I should lean on verifiable content versus actually leaning on taking it at face values
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jacky tbh that's one problem I have on my notepad
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jacky the other is encouraging / focusing on showing what your friends like (like if one of the likes is of someone in your contacts list)
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jacky 2M feels wild but thankfully since one can see a post once (if it's public); it can be just processed once
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jacky (thanks for the discussion + ideation!)
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Thoughts on hosting an IndieWebCamp Pop-up Session" https://boffosocko.com/2020/05/15/thoughts-on-hosting-an-indiewebcamp-pop-up-session/
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jacky https://beakerbrowser.com/
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jacky the landing page is a lot nicer and gives a more soup-to-nuts intro to how beaker uses dat without mentioning it
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[KevinMarks] One things silos do (because they have follow data) is mention who you follow that liked/reacted to the post, which gives that kind of social proof /plausibility, but requires the site to recognise you through being logged in somehow. (Google Friend Connect was an attempt to do this in a less silo way)
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[KevinMarks] The fake mentions case is analogous to the fake reviews one-a site can put in hReview and hReviewAggregate markup and have them be fake, or stuffed in various ways
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doubleloop Morning IndieWeb .o/
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Loqi doubleloop: [jgmac1106] left you a message 3 days, 23 hours ago: in case you do not get the webmention I sent you a best of my collection of metacognition readings
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[jgmac1106] mapkyca++ for all the volunteer work
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Loqi mapkyca has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (27 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] thanks for fixing the hosted withknown sites
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[mapkyca] HTH
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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[tantek] jacky, yes to encouraging / focusing on showing what your “friends” like
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[tantek] Kevinmarks agreed silos do that by focusing on your explicit followings, however I think we can be more clever than that and not depend on such explicit connections
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[tantek] One example: when sites start caching who likes/replies/mentions whom (e.g. as part of a Vouch backend), they can use that as an implicit cue for which responses to highlight for you
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[tantek] Then the only remaining explicit bit is signing in with IndieAuth, which may sound odd yet I can see us eventually signing into each other’s sites like that with long term sessions
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[tantek] So the site knows who it is showing content to
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[jgmac1106] morning Jeremy using my wiki to try and develop "best of" lists started with Bass Players http://longthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/doku.php?id=musichour
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Loqi musichour
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sknebel good morning everyone
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[tantek] What is top Tweets
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "top Tweets" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "top Tweets is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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jeremycherfas Morning [jgmac1106] Interesting listicle. Is bass a particular thing of yours?
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[jgmac1106] first instrument I never learned to play...well actually no I did a few lessons on misters sax, more for chat, but bass is everything
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[tantek] ^^^ — > chat
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[tantek] top Tweets is the default [[algorithmic feed]] shown on your Twitter home page (or app 🏠 screen) that in addition to showing a subset of out of time order (re)posts from your followings, includes some posts they’ve liked, which tends to amplify snark, gotchas, and other negative aspects of default Twitter culture.
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Loqi ok
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[tantek] Giphy << Why acquired by [[Facebook]] for $400m: https://twitter.com/ahockley/status/1261414940054663170 (and every chat app)
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@ahockley @JessicaGottlieb Facebook is in the data business. Giphy is used in all sorts of closed ecosystems (Slack, forums, etc) where Facebook can’t gather data. Until now. (twitter.com/_/status/1261414940054663170)
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Loqi ok, I added "Why acquired by [[Facebook]] for $400m: https://twitter.com/ahockley/status/1261414940054663170 (and every chat app)" to a brand new "See Also" section of /Giphy https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=69943&oldid=46014
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[KevinMarks] Ad targeting by which gifs you shared
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[JuJu]1 Hola Indieweb! Is it possible to add twitter profiles as a source in microsub servers like aperture?
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doubleloop hi [JuJu]1 - it is indeed possible, yes. I have a post here (although please note the update at the top) https://doubleloop.net/2019/03/12/following-twitter-peeps-in-an-indiereader-with-granary-io-and-microsub/
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doubleloop oh whoops, looks like twitter-atom may not be usable now due to Twitter lockdown, sorry I didn't realise / had forgotten
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[JuJu]1 Thanks, doubleloop! when did the twitter lockdown start? would like to read something about it, if someone has a link
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[snarfed] JuJu: https://blog.twitter.com/developer/en_us/topics/tools/2018/new-developer-requirements-to-protect-our-platform.html , https://blog.twitter.com/developer/en_us/topics/community/2020/twitter_developer_policy_update.html
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[schmarty] welp, that was a little more work than expected, but a lot less pain than i feared. the (giant, i am sure) Kapowski userbase can safely post GIFs without Facebook intervention at https://kapowski.schmarty.net/ thanks to the gfycat.com API.
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[schmarty] lol oops missed some meta crap
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[schmarty] i think the following is relevant to IndieWeb main tho I think it was kicked off in -chat or -dev, when tantek suggested using the wikimedia commons GIF collection as a source for a reaction GIF posting library.
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[schmarty] i did some deep diving into it and there are... issues
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[schmarty] for one, there's a lot of content that are relevant only for very areas of study, like animations of mathematical models. and i do mean _a lot_.
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[schmarty] for another, there is actually porn in there
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[tantek] I mean making chats more mathy sounds like a good thing
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[schmarty] that second seems like a symptom of a lack of community resources for curation
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[schmarty] but the first is that this collection is not designed for the purpose of "look up a quick image response"
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[schmarty] it comes down to content - and the wikimedia commons Animated GIF collection isn't designed around ensuring this kind of content is curated, organized, and searchable.
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[schmarty] i don't mean to dump on the wikimedia commons at all! it is just an example of how a collection built and maintained with a lot of human effort for one thing can't easily replace or be replaced by one created with a different purpose.
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[tantek] I mean that’s all true
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[tantek] LMK when you’ve fixed the metacrap so I can share elsewhere without having to explain it
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[JuJu]1 Thanks a lot [snarfed]
swentel, opal, [chrisaldrich], wolftune, [Rose], SergeTarkovski[m, KempfCreative, [jeremycherfas], KempfCreative1, viaken, markopasha, fkrt2, [schmarty], KartikPrabhu and xvr147 joined the channel; nickodd and MarkAtwood left the channel