#indieweb 2020-05-24

2020-05-24 UTC
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jacky need to get this person in here: https://orndorffgrant.com/own-your-data-idea/
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vilhalmer whoa, the hpi package that links to is really interesting
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jacky so this bit in here is interesting
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jacky > The fact that developers need to "get familiar with Linked Data vocabularies" before they can even create an app means that Solid is too expensive to adopt for 99% of profit-driven apps. Why learn a new method of storing data, when you already know how to use postgres?
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jacky wow yeah
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jacky hpi is like what indieweb stuff _could_ do
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jacky given more work
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vilhalmer but it would work generically instead of needing parsers for each site :D
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jacky well ideally you wouldn't have to parse sites, you could have a client that allows you to input this data directly to your site
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jacky the parser approach is easier b/c we can crib off the work of others and interface with people (which tbh prevents growth in anything purely indieweb)
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vilhalmer good point, I guess I was thinking about it backwards; you're not looking at other's stuff in this context
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jacky yeah like if I could, I wouldn't _want_ to use fitbit, I'd like something that just sends stuff to either my site or some sort of personal db
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[ColinMorris] It looks like it's shifting the cognitive load from developers to the end user. Which is fine for savvy end users. I guess a good Extension ecosystem where developers can add their own data-set-integration/ visualisations would make that more valuable. Feels like "Tableau, but open"
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jbove good morning CET
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[jeremycherfas] All this fuss about Joe Rogan’s move to Spotify presaging the imminent doom of open podcasting doesn’t seem logical to me. I do wonder, though, whether there is an open alternative to the Apple directory.
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[jeremycherfas] Good morning jbove
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jacky [jeremycherfas]: there is but it's more about Apple's control over people
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jacky like people don't know or want to pull away from Apple's ecosystem (even when it comes to recommendations) so they're stuck and feed into a loop of what Apple says, goes
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[jeremycherfas] Right, but that’s the directory, not the delivery mechanism of RSS.
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jacky the directory has value because of that mindshare though; that's what I'm saying
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jacky like even the concept / adoption of mobile pay, it was already a thing but once Apple Pay dropped; it became "more commonplace" to hear people encourage the use of it
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[jeremycherfas] Maybe Spotify will reach a point where it doesn’t use the directory, maybe it already doesn’t. Either way, RSS continues.
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[schmarty] I was surprised by the number (and ferocity) of articles bemoaning this as the death of podcasts
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[jeremycherfas] That’s very local. M-pesa has been huge in Africa for years.
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[schmarty] As if people literally forgot about Luminary
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[jeremycherfas] Some people seem to think that their boycott of Luminary is what is giving it a bad time.
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jacky tbh I didn't know Luminary was a thing
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jacky but I also avoid podcasts I can't subscribe to via RSS because I need that for Plex lol
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[schmarty] Luminary now feels like an already-forgotten (VC-backed?) app and platform created whole cloth with the idea of capturing podcasts and breaking the open podcasting space
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[jeremycherfas] Exactly jacky. If you really want Rogan, you'll pat Spotify.
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[schmarty] At the time it ate a few podcasts I was interested in
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[jeremycherfas] Pay
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[schmarty] But podcast hosts and sites are constantly trying to escape the openness of RSS
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[jeremycherfas] That’s a choice.
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[schmarty] I am frequently frustrated by podcast websites with goofy all-JavaScript players that won't work with huffduffer for example.
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[tantek] meh IDK who/what Luminary or Rogan are
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[tantek] or why they matter
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[jeremycherfas] Me too. And I sometimes say so, and they’re all 🤷 What it means is I can’t easily share or sample one episode.
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[jeremycherfas] Because money.
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[schmarty] I personally am a fan of the idea of more folks simply losing interest in the companies, shows, etc that try to capture a market. Let them fade away.
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[jeremycherfas] I think the all JavaScript. Players are like the entirely friction free publishing experience we were talking about a couple of days ago.
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[jeremycherfas] I’m with you, schmarty, but as a podcaster I think paidcasts and notcasts do take some oxygen from our airspace.
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[schmarty] Seems like it! Though I feel the Venn diagram of folks that talk loudly about podcasts as "an industry" shares less overlap with people who actually make or engage with podcasts than it might appear.
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[jeremycherfas] Absolutely. When it comes to awards and reviews and such, though, it does seem like the vast majority of people who actually make podcasts get very little hearing.
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[jeremycherfas] Which, with the difficulty of discovery makes finding your audience hard.
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[jeremycherfas] And yes, this is personal.
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jacky up reading more "own your data" content outside of the indieweb
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jacky https://orndorffgrant.com/own-your-data-idea/#the-result-that-the-scenarios-are-supposed-to-portray
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "On Owning Data Apps Use and the IndieWeb" https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/494c3034-7ad0-4081-b4d2-825d4825d2ff
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jacky it's been a _while_ since I've posted to indienews :)
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jacky this part stuck out a _lot_ to me
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jacky https://orndorffgrant.com/own-your-data-idea/#it-needs-a-killer-app-combo
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[Arne] i just saw that there is no OGP and other meta crap present on the wiki (I shared a the Indieweb Principles to a friend on Facebook and a photo of adactio popped up). Maybe we should add it one day. It is a small thing to add and if it helps to let people to embrace the Indieweb more, why not?
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jacky I don't know - doing that would require a lot of duplication of text if it's done everywhere. Also that's a bit counter intuitive to add in OGP (duplication) when the mf2 for it is already supported by everyone else
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jacky also IIRC when you share links on facebook; you have the option of _not_ using their prerendering
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[tantek] argovaerts, thanks for the heads-up about the /principles page! Yes typically we avoid meta crap because inevitably it falls out of date, and on a volunter wiki, you can pretty much count on bad metacrap
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[tantek] take a look at https://indieweb.org/The-Open-Graph-protocol — in vast majority of cases, there is no OGP or other meta crap needed to achieve the desired effects
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KartikPrabhu is there twitter cards markup?
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[tantek] what is a Twitter Card
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Loqi Twitter Cards are Twitter's use of OGP and their own proprietary <meta> tags to provide link-preview information as part of tweets with links https://indieweb.org/Twitter_Card
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KartikPrabhu well I guess not. QED
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[tantek] what should a preview image of /principles look like?
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KartikPrabhu I am not opposed to adactio's face
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jacky lol
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jacky it doesn't need one tbh
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KartikPrabhu right. not every page needs a featured image
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KartikPrabhu if FB fallsback to one then its on them
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[Arne] Not be clear, I'm not a fan of OGP or any other meta crap 😉
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[Arne] I do think that it makes sense to add it to some pages like / and /principles to make it more shareable.
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[Arne] ↩️ Indieweb logo 🙃
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jacky [Arne]: adding OGP to a page doesn't make it more shareable, FWIW
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jacky at most, it signals to Facebook that this page has meta-data specific to Facebook and for the platform to use that (and potentially ignore the rest of the page)
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[Arne] also true of course
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vilhalmer the only use I've gotten out of OGP is using it to scrape the highest-res versions of images out of tumblr pages that otherwise don't disply them ;)
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[jgmac1106] morning all, I need to restyle the webmentions but fooling around with the idea of trying to make a webmention guestbook
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[jgmac1106] okay think I got it working: https://jgregorymcverry.com/guestbook though may want to connect with fluffy and see how much lifting it would take to display time and date published
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[jgmac1106] I think I will make an endorsement page as well
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[arush] Morning all.
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supernovah hey is anyone a member of ##php
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supernovah I need to find an admin there, they banned me as soon as I lef tthe channel one day and I can't rejoin
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[jgmac1106] morning Amanda
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aaronpk That feeling when it's easier to reply to github issues in my reader than logging in to github and replying there
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Zegnat supernovah: if you are looking for a channel operator, I would ask Freenode’s ChanServ to give you the list. E.g.: /msg ChanServ ACCESS ##php LIST
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[tantek] aaronpk++ that's pretty amazing and sounds like a useful demo! (especially to appeal to developers)
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Loqi aaronpk has 34 karma in this channel over the last year (218 in all channels)
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[tantek] aaronpk, in particular , as a follow-up to your "Living in my social reader", and "Replying in my social reader" blog posts
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[schmarty] whew y'all i am deep into some possible nonsense this long weekend. having fun though.
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[schmarty] does anyone embed files in their posts? things that are meant to be downloaded and used by non-browser apps?
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[schmarty] what are files?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "files" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "files is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[schmarty] what is attachment?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "attachment" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "attachment is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[schmarty] what is enclosure?
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Loqi An enclosure is a file attached to an entry in an Atom/RSS feed, used, among other things, for podcasts https://indieweb.org/enclosure
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aaronpk My bike/train/plane posts have an embedded geojson file with the route data
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[schmarty] picking a random example, does this have one? https://aaronparecki.com/2020/03/06/2/
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[schmarty] or this one? https://aaronparecki.com/2019/09/12/14/ i am not able to find a reference to geoJSON in the page?
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[schmarty] maybe this is getting -dev already, but i am looking for examples of folks putting up posts with "downloads" - files that the poster intends for the reader to save and use with some other program. especially if it's source files for creative-type stuff, like photoshop/illustrator files, print-and-play-games, 3d printables, etc.
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aaronpk yeah i don't expose it publicly, but it's used to generate the image, and it's stored on disk next to the post too
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[jgmac1106] marty that is really what most of my bookmarks are, readings for my students to download
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[jgmac1106] on all my more recent video posts I add a torrent link and encourage people to seed and share
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[schmarty] jgmac1106 any examples you can share would be helpful!
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[jgmac1106] https://jgregorymcverry.com/myvideos but I didn't know about the rss enclosure thing, may need to file an issue with granary doubt anything mapping that
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[schmarty] thanks!
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[jgmac1106] this is my bookmark feed, but I only link to my files on my server to demonstrate how I learn out loud, nobody should download them and always respect copyright of predatory academic publicationbs: https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/content/bookmarkedpages/
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[kimberlyhirsh] Feels IndieWeb related: https://craftindustryalliance.org/nbcuniversal-to-close-bluprint/
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[jgmac1106] https://jgregorymcverry.com/mypoetry#audiopoems here I add a show link but don't use enclosure, and no link to download poem..figure that is just a right click
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[jgmac1106] Kimberly you could add it to the /site-deaths
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[schmarty] jgmac1106 interesting. so the vids and poems are all content that browsers handle already - you even have the players inline in your content.
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[schmarty] these bookmarks tho'...
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[kimberlyhirsh] I think I will.
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[jgmac1106] yeah and then I use granary to convert the mf2 feed into an rss feed
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[jgmac1106] the bookmarks very unique to an academic workflow, I squirrel away pdfs, then tag and bookmark them for later use, go back and add blockquotes when I read the article
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[schmarty] so here is an example of something i am working on: https://martymcgui.re/2011/05/22/172540/
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Loqi [Marty McGuire] Volumetric Tentacle Key Hook https://res.cloudinary.com/schmarty/image/fetch/w_960,c_fill/https://media.martymcgui.re/47/14/e9/8a/8a5a048170750682b0122188c15408c969f563c7f20940166d1de6d9.jpg
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[jgmac1106] marty my bookmark feed is THE most popular feed people subscribe too
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[schmarty] i am migrating all the things i have posted on thingiverse
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[jgmac1106] I am so excited...I would love a curated indieweb thingiverse like space,,, something like indieweb.xyz but that displayed in cards
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[schmarty] as a start i am posting these as regular entries on my sites with just a few differences
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aaronpk hehe this reminds me of email attachments
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[schmarty] i kind of did model them like email attachments!
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[schmarty] so these are basically regular posts but have attachments inside.
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aaronpk neat
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[schmarty] i'm also working on the relationship stuff (don't have it exposed on my site yet but the data is there) to denote when something is derived from another design
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[schmarty] like https://martymcgui.re/2011/12/11/112751/ is how i mapped my thingiverse "makes"
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Loqi [Marty McGuire] 🛠 Made a copy of Mr. Alligator by curiousmedia. https://res.cloudinary.com/schmarty/image/fetch/w_960,c_fill/https://media.martymcgui.re/ec/e1/01/01/2191810d2498584c8057124f308575604afc94a667656462d0ee3f4b.jpg
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aaronpk ohh
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[schmarty] at their most basic, they're just photo replies. but i also dupe in-reply-to as "make-of"
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[schmarty] ehh this is getting dev-y.
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aaronpk neat
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[schmarty] anyway i think i have been able to go *too far* into making these "just look like regular posts"
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[schmarty] to the point where a consumer wouldn't be able to pick them out of my feeds
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[schmarty] doing some prior art research and planning to write some posts about it to hopefully get feedback from y'all
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petermolnar hey all; I have a very interesting dilemma. It'd be lovely to throw it into an IWC room once we get there. Heavily -dev cross topic, but it has deeper thoughts.
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petermolnar I want to get back to hand-editing parts of my site, mostly the collections pages, because I want to break chronological ordering, and I want to create a human readable page that points to the sub entries. If I do this, maintaining it as a h-feed doesn't seem an easy feat. I'm aware I still need chronologically ordered feed for readers, but I'm a bit hesitant on having a rel=alternate h-feed - how accepted/common is it to do so?
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nekr0z petermolnar: AFAIK the proper way to link to h-feed (if it is separate from your human-readable page) is <link rel="feed" href="hfeed.html">
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petermolnar But does it makes sense? It'd make the feed a sidecar file.
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nekr0z And what's wrong with that? Integrating h-feed into your human-readable page is ok if it makes sense, but it you case maybe it doesn't, so it makes perfect sense to make it a "sidecar file".
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KartikPrabhu you can have both "non-chronological" and "chronological" feeds as human readable
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[schmarty] nekr0z: there have been some strong opinions in the community about sidefiles in the past https://indieweb.org/sidefile-antipattern 😂
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KartikPrabhu the first can then link to the second using rel=feed
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KartikPrabhu so neither is a side-file
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[schmarty] (spoiler in the URL lol)
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KartikPrabhu for example, my homepage is a mixed content-type feed and is not necessarily chronological (since articles always come after notes), but the homepage links to individual notes and articles feed
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nekr0z [schmarty]: I totally get that, but you need not violate the DRY principle. If it makes sense to separate the h-feed from the human-readable page, it may also make sense not to have all the contents in h-feed, but make it a list of u-url's wrapped as h-entries
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nekr0z What _really_ makes no sense is trying to tamp the human-readable thing into the procrustean bed of a machine-readable format.
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[schmarty] nekr0z: i agree! even if a page contains chronological posts autonatically rendered, i think not everything needs to be a feed. my archive pages are just collections of entries with no h-feed wrapper, for example.
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nekr0z I mean, that is, as long as you make your site for humans to read, primarily. Otherwise you may want to get rid of HTML alltogether and just have everything in JSON. ;)
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[jgmac1106] I want to make a monthly archive of notes but I don't think of that as an h-feed...just going to do something like https://jgregorymcverry.com/poetryportpoems
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[jgmac1106] maybe use datetime for the link text not sure...maybe first few words
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KartikPrabhu [jgmac1106]: h-feed readers can fall back to a list of h-entries if needed
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[tantek] Other way around, you may want to get rid of JSON altogether and just have everything in HTML. The latter can be made even more human friendly (i.e. CSS), the former cannot. Oh and did I mention i18n? HTML has that, while JSON *still* does not.
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[tantek] To keep the "feed" conversatio non-devvy, what's your specific use-case for a different ordering? (I can think of many myself, wanted to hear what inspired the questions)
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[LewisCowles] tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 17 karma in this channel over the last year (117 in all channels)
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[LewisCowles] and while you're at it, encode everything in utf-8
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[tantek] UTF8++
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Loqi UTF8 has 1 karma over the last year
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[KevinMarks] There's no rule that file order has to match updated time in h-feed
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[KevinMarks] What is a social reader?
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Loqi A social reader is a modern interactive reader that allows you to directly respond to posts (with a like, comment, etc) right there inline with posts as you read them (as people do in social media), in contrast to legacy feed readers which were one-way read-only experiences and provided no mechanisms to interact with or respond to posts https://indieweb.org/social_reader
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[KevinMarks] Doesn't micro.blog count?
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jacky perhaps
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jacky has seen social readers as tools that make use of both microsub and micropub
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aaronpk i forget can you subscribe to external feeds in micro.blog? if not, i wouldn't call it a social reader
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[KevinMarks] Ah, they have to sign up themselves to do that.
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[KevinMarks] That's interesting. Effectively subscribing to an external feed would be creating a shadow account.
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aaronpk i thought i remembered manton trying that out at some point
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aaronpk can't find any docs on it or anything in the UI tho
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[chrisaldrich] What is a sidebar?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/sidebar
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[chrisaldrich] What is sidebar?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/sidebar
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[chrisaldrich] hmmm....
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[chrisaldrich] What is Blogger?
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Loqi Blogger is a blog content hosting silo owned by Google https://indieweb.org/Blogger
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[chrisaldrich] Blogger << https://oudigitools.blogspot.com/2020/05/blog-sidebars.html
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Loqi ok, I added "https://oudigitools.blogspot.com/2020/05/blog-sidebars.html" to the "See Also" section of /Blogger https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=70049&oldid=69338
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[chrisaldrich] [schmarty] would your call for examples include .pdf files linked to or embedded into pages? I'm sure I've linked to books/journal articles from book or read related posts in the past.
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[chrisaldrich] and did you decide where to stash examples of that behaviour?
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petermolnar had to deal with some away from computer activities, reading back
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[jgmac1106] I do that...keep a different order but always keep human and machine readable update info in chronological order
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[jgmac1106] I do know pocketcast handles my feeds converted in granary fine based on my update info, but will always use chronological by publish date
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petermolnar The second is strictly IT/tech/etc, but it doesn't make good sense in chronological grouping: it should be by topic. Linux, indieweb, etc.
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petermolnar re [tantek]: I read an article many moons ago: https://stackingthebricks.com/how-blogs-broke-the-web/ and I never stopped thinking about it. In my specific case, I have two strange categories in my system, journal and articles.
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petermolnar I could add tags, subcategories, whatever, but I've tried all of them and the amount of time I put into playing with taxonomy systems was way more, than hand writing a page for these.
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petermolnar The first one is basicaly everything that's long and somewhat personal: travel, internet thoughts, etc.
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petermolnar Now, one more thing: nobody is going to visit my site to see if there are new entries any more. Obviously I need feeds, but they don't need to be the same as the category indexes.
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[jgmac1106] I do like how Known can turn any category (defined as a hashtag) into a feed
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[jgmac1106] I for a long time separated my "articles" from my blog posts by bifurcating identities from my main domain and doing different blog "posts" from subdomains
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[jgmac1106] Adding the wiki for my teaching stuff like your "strictly IT/tech/etc..." recentr development but working well
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[tantek] petermolnar I have mixed feelings about that article on a few levels
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[tantek] I mean to start with, it gets history a bit wrong, and I have trouble seeing past that.
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petermolnar nobody gets history right :) - it's always subjective
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petermolnar for me, it speaks. My first webpage had nothing to do with blogging or even with dated entries, that came years later. It was just stuff, ordered and layed out the way it fell out of my head.
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aaronpk same!
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[jgmac1106] here too, didn't blog till blogger
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[jgmac1106] just pages and stuff
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petermolnar but feeling aside; one of my all-time favourite page is this: http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/ - it's essentially an anything Nikon ever produced catalogue, frozen in time since 2005.
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[jgmac1106] actually had a blog on my school website but that wasn't mine, no real blog to blogger
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petermolnar and I miss these sites; the ones that has their own system of organising their contents
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Loqi misses these sites too
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aaronpk Loqi: come on you barely have a website
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petermolnar keep it in mind that I still see feeds as absolute musts, the question is, do I need my archive/collection/navigational parts to be feeds, more, to be chronological and/or properly machine parseable?
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[jgmac1106] I feel I do a mix of organizing stuff but also organizing it in a way people may want to consume: https://jgregorymcverry.com/
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[jgmac1106] especially with different hashtags on Known, but I am part of niche edu space that always built communities through pop up rss feeds
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petermolnar > in a way people may want to consume - that's part of the problem. Say someone lands on my "journal" archive page. Currently I present a chronological list of entries from various topics, that are barely connected to eachother. I could arrange it by groups of topics, or by some other method, so it's make it easier for a human to read the page. In reality though, people either come through readers or from search engines and in both ca
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petermolnar se they land on or consume a single entry - questining even the need for archive pages, unless they are the same as h-feeds. But... I myself might use the different grouping. This is my page and I'm at the point where I want to have a catalogue I myself can use better.
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petermolnar (yes, I have mixed feeling as well, which is why the whole topic was labelled as "dilemma"
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[schmarty] chrisaldrich: yes! i didn't come up with enough examples to push myself to make a page (yet)
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[LewisCowles] 😛