#indieweb 2021-12-17
2021-12-17 UTC
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# 
memelover I've a random HTML question if this is the right place for it. I have a domain, call it example.com. On the index page, I have an a tag as follows: <a href="https://example.com/link_address">link text</a>. When clicking that link, it goes to https://example.com/example.com/link_address. The base html tag has href="example.com". What could be adding the extra "example.com" in absolute URLs?
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# [tantek]1 why are we getting random HTML questions here?
# [tantek]1 speaking of, I'm being entertained by the indiewebiness of https://thewebisfucked.com/
# [tantek]1 not sure where to link it
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capjamesg[d] [tantek] That post does link to the POSSE IndieWeb page 🙂
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# capjamesg[d] [chrisaldrich] How do you think person tags fit in the context of blogging?
# capjamesg[d] (and not a checkin)
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# capjamesg[d] [chrisaldrich] I finally posted a commitment: https://indieweb.org/2022-01-01-commitments
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# 
Loqi [indienews] New post: "My first multilanguage page" https://abisso.org/stream/2021/12/15/multilang-page/
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petermolnar this is a commendable article: https://sadgrl.online/newoldweb/manifesto_full.html and has many elements our /why either has or should have, but in a less encyclopedia, more readable lingo.
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# [tantek]1 web3 << Criticism: vehicle for cryotofraud: https://www.usenix.org/publications/loginonline/web3-fraud
# Loqi ok, I added "Criticism: vehicle for cryotofraud: https://www.usenix.org/publications/loginonline/web3-fraud" to the "See Also" section of /Web_3.0 https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=78426&oldid=78422
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# [aciccarello]1 This article made me think that it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to convince some Gen Zers to create their own websites. https://techcrunch.com/2021/12/17/backed-by-former-facebook-and-twitter-execs-tagg-launches-social-branding-app-for-gen-z/
# [aciccarello]1 > "Profiles can look like anything, that’s the beauty of it. We wanted to move away from the traditional, restrictive, cookie-cutter profiles that all social apps have, because as Gen Z-ers, we value freedom of expression and uniqueness a lot"
# edgeduchess[d] I don't think convincing even millennials is that hard, they just need better tools
# edgeduchess[d] i have tons of artist friends that are clamoring for it
# [aciccarello]1 I would guess balancing ease to post, ease to customize, and price is the challenge for any tool looking to have wide appeal.
# edgeduchess[d] in part, yes
# edgeduchess[d] but in general i wouldn't call it "ease to post" as much as "overall user experience"
# edgeduchess[d] which also encompasses discoverability of your content
# edgeduchess[d] ease of getting interactions on it
# edgeduchess[d] there's a lot of building blocks but putting them together in the right way requires a coordinated effort
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# petermolnar > they just need better tools - LOL. They need will.
# petermolnar or boredom.
# petermolnar we have absolutely incredible tools these days, ranging from vim through atom to worpdress and wix.
# edgeduchess[d] oh I think if you talk with people that are not engineers you'll find they very much disagree
# edgeduchess[d] our tools and onboarding are atrocious
# petermolnar that linked thing doesn't look much more, than tumblr to be honest
# [tantek]1 petermolnar, none of the tools you listed are "incredible" from a usability perspective
# edgeduchess[d] petermolnar: which is just yet another side that what people need isn't much, the tooling for it is just bad
# petermolnar Yes, they are. EVERYTHING has a learning curve.
# [tantek]1 petermolnar, No, that's the same failed methodology that led people to insist that RSS/Atom were "enough" when faced with the increased ease of use and convenience of social media UX
# [tantek]1 lol exactly
# petermolnar I'm not saying enough, I said incredible.
# petermolnar not the same
# [tantek]1 then that's ignoring the point of the article
# petermolnar the reason for people not using the current tools - not indieweb tools, that wasn't the point - is not in the tools, it's in the people
# [tantek]1 compilers and JS interpreters are also "incredible" and completely irrelevant to this discussion
# [tantek]1 petermolnar, again, "blaming the user" is a known anti-pattern so no, it's not "in the people"
# [tantek]1 and certainly that attitude will not lead you to designing better tools
# petermolnar Tumblr, as it is right now, is user friendly, customizable, and takes ~2 mins to set one up anonymously. People are making new tools because it's a tiny bit different, and it won't change a thing: it'll be used for personal brands.
# [tantek]1 [aciccarello] note how much the article emphasizes "apps", which by implication are also *mobile* UIs
# petermolnar and yes, the problem is with the people because everyone treats online content as throwaway stuff these days
# petermolnar no tool is going to fix that
# petermolnar anyway; customizable tools making a comeback is nice
# petermolnar "Tagg users currently earn points by engaging with the platform — while these points are currently just a vanity feature, Loolo sees this as a potential future for the app."
# [tantek]1 "shouldn't be too much of a stretch" <-- there's a huge gap between what people want to conveniently do on mobile, and what even the most "setup" folks here can do
# [tantek]1 so no, it's a massive stretch
# petermolnar I'm going to quote Switch from the Matrix here: "Not like this."
# [tantek]1 [aciccarello] go watch [schmarty]'s keynote from IndieWeb Summit 2019 where he demonstrates both what "just works" and what has a long way to go in terms of mobile "app" like experience with the IndieWeb
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# 
[schmarty] I wonder what bits of that still work? Definitely the part where I break my site before doing a recorded demo is still accurate 😂
# [tantek]1 lol: "It’s like a link-in-bio service" <-- so that's how Gen Z thinks of a personal site now?
# petermolnar I might lack the corret tone with the "blaming people" thing; I don't blame people, I blame the lack of motivation.
# [tantek]1 the irony of "apps" and "services" being built to literally do one of the first things many/most people did with HTML, publish a list of links to things
# edgeduchess[d] blaming the lack of motivation is blaming people
# petermolnar is it though?
# edgeduchess[d] people are different from you and have different priorities than you
# edgeduchess[d] yes
# edgeduchess[d] you either want a better world, and then you work with people
# edgeduchess[d] and meet them where they are
# [tantek]1 to edgeduchess[d]'s point, "what people need isn't much", they just have ZERO time/consideration for anything command line, server/service setup, admintax etc.
# edgeduchess[d] or you just complain about people because they don't fit their preconceived notion of who they should be, and make no change
# petermolnar ok, let's take a step back.
# edgeduchess[d] yep, they absolutely have zero time/consideration for those
# edgeduchess[d] as is their right
# [tantek]1 exactly
# edgeduchess[d] unless one streamlines the heck out of all of that, it's never going to happen
# [tantek]1 I mean frankly, I have little patience for those things either
# [tantek]1 this is one of the reasons we aggressively push folks who focus on those things into the #indieweb-dev channel
# petermolnar why would I want a personal website (not indieweb, just a site), even if it's very simple to do so on current tools (wix, squarespace, google sites, etc) when a social media profile is more multifunctional, and takes care of the discoverability/networking?
# edgeduchess[d] because you hate corporations and they keep bringing your content down
# [tantek]1 because "more" is not always (usually not) better. this is also UI 101
# petermolnar it's similar to the problem of backups: people don't do it until it gets bad, lose something, and after that, the will
# petermolnar > because you hate corporations and they keep bringing your content down - we also POSSE.
# edgeduchess[d] you desperately wish you had a good alternative, but all the alternatives that are halfway decent completely cut you off from the world where your friends are
# [tantek]1 no, it's about lowering barriers so you don't have to require such high amounts of "will" to enable people
# edgeduchess[d] and require you to still have the social media accounts anyway
# edgeduchess[d] POSSE is meaningless if POSSE isn't seamless
# [tantek]1 edgeduchess[d], that's also been disproven by literally every new app that "succeeds" e.g. that Tagg app, none of your friends are there when you start
# petermolnar how low you want that barrier? Because low barrier is what's currently bloating all social networks.
# edgeduchess[d] even just explaining to people what POSSE is to people who aren't us is an issue
# petermolnar that is not true
# [tantek]1 that's a pretty unhelpful elitist perspective petermolnar. it's more the algorithmic feeds etc.
# petermolnar there were wordpress plugins long before us that did the same
# edgeduchess[d] [tantek]1: disagree, network effects are an issue
# edgeduchess[d] it's just that apps like Tagg actually figure out how to grow their networks
# edgeduchess[d] it's a thing you can build and design for
# [tantek]1 network effects are consideration, not an "issue". FB overcame MySpace, Twitter overcame Blogger etc.
# edgeduchess[d] and actually a book on this came out like a week ago
# [tantek]1 petermolnar, setting up and configuring wordpress is not a user-friendly thing, the "there were wordpress plugins" is a useless point for the kind of crowd that is adopting Tagg
# edgeduchess[d] this is what apps that "succeed" usually do, they strategize over how to get atomic networks to use their thing
# edgeduchess[d] but networks are still important
# [tantek]1 that's also a good point
# petermolnar jetpack comes on wp.com automatically and had auto publish
# petermolnar please don't tell me that's much harder to set up, than an email address
# edgeduchess[d] no one i know wants to use wordpress
# edgeduchess[d] it's bloated and its themes suck
# edgeduchess[d] also, doesn't allow porn, which is a problem for my target audience (fandom artists)
# [tantek]1 petermolnar, yes it is, no matter how much you want to deny it, wordpress is harder to setup and maintain than an email address, and LOTS of even "tinkerer" type folks have given up on wordpress because of its admintax
# petermolnar wordpress.com
# [tantek]1 there are tons of examples of this documented on the wiki, curious why you're denying this
# petermolnar not hosted wordpress
# [tantek]1 petermolnar have you tried firsthand setting someone up with wordpress com to do anything IndieWeb? I have and its a horrible, expensive experience
# petermolnar oh ffs
# petermolnar we were talking about tooling
# petermolnar I was not *exclusively* talking about indieweb tools
# petermolnar the original topic was gen-z and self-expression
# [tantek]1 we've had this discussion before, wordpress is either massive admintax (self-hosted), or an expensive deadend (com hosted)
# petermolnar still better, than a web3 startup app
# edgeduchess[d] gen-z self expresses a lot with their "own" websites on stuff liek carrd.co
# petermolnar show me
# [tantek]1 edgeduchess[d] is also exactly correct re: "it's bloated and its themes suck"
# [tantek]1 petermolnar, I don't think you appreciate how much aesthetics of "not looking like a bunch of old busted up web pages" matters
# edgeduchess[d] https://twitter.com/search?q=carrd.co&src=typed_query
# edgeduchess[d] look around here
# petermolnar [tantek]1: that is actually true.
# edgeduchess[d] https://haocart.carrd.co/
# edgeduchess[d] https://icewater.carrd.co/
# [tantek]1 what is carrd
# Loqi Linktree is a site for publishing a flat list of links at a short vanity path (like Twitter and other social media silos) for what appears to be for the sole purpose of seeming to provide multiple links from social media profiles like Instagram which only allow one clickable link in your profile https://indieweb.org/carrd
# edgeduchess[d] aesthetic is 1000% a core issue of it
# [tantek]1 maybe worth its own page
# [tantek]1 what is link in bio
# Loqi Linktree is a site for publishing a flat list of links at a short vanity path (like Twitter and other social media silos) for what appears to be for the sole purpose of seeming to provide multiple links from social media profiles like Instagram which only allow one clickable link in your profile https://indieweb.org/link_in_bio
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