#indieweb 2021-12-21

2021-12-21 UTC
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[tantek] tweetstorm << Example of publishing a tweetstorm as a way to (more) quickly braindump material to be later woven together into an article. Tweet start: https://twitter.com/cwdarney/status/1465118077209698308 and subsequent article: https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/i-rewatched-the-entire-mcu-to-get-ready-for-spider-man-no-way-home-heres-what-i-learned
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@cwdarney The pre-No Way Home thread starts here. Mute or follow accordingly. (twitter.com/_/status/1465118077209698308)
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Loqi ok, I added "Example of publishing a tweetstorm as a way to (more) quickly braindump material to be later woven together into an article. Tweet start: https://twitter.com/cwdarney/status/1465118077209698308 and subsequent article: https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/i-rewatched-the-entire-mcu-to-get-ready-for-spider-man-no-way-home-heres-what-i-learned" to the "See Also" section of /tweetstorm https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=78505&oldid=78504
[davidmead], darkkirb, IntriguedWow[d], schmudde, jeremycherfas, gxt, sayanarijit[d], PK[d], RIZY101[d], KartikPrabhu, rvalue, _inky, aparecidabosco32, In_another_world, tetov-irc, n8chz and Moosadee joined the channel
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[tantek] Anyone seen or tried the "Hide offensive messages" or "Advanced comment filtering" features in Instagram? I was prompted to "Turn on these settings?" and curious if anyone has any experience
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[tantek] they sound reasonable (good UI text) so going to give it a go
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doubleloop[m] Pen On Paper Pushed to Internet Note: POPPIN
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doubleloop[m] or.. Pen On Paper Pushed to Site: POPPS
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doubleloop[m] +1 for WINPOST
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pmn looking for a simple dark theme css to stick it into userChrome.css (for firefox). something akain to what chrome does for web content, any idea?
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pmn ff's own css for it's developer tools is cool too, anyone here using it?
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pmn or githubs' dark theme (high contrast)
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pmn github's css apparently comes from here : https://github.com/primer/primitives
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[KevinMarks] you could look at https://newcss.net/themes/ night theme
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[KevinMarks] newcss is pretty much user chrome
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[tantek] might have more luck in the #indieweb-dev channel for CSS related questions
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capjamesg[d] I bought a domain breakfastand.coffee and plan to turn it into a review aggregator for eatery reviews.
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capjamesg[d] Does anyone have any thoughts on taxonomies for restaurant reviews specifically?
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capjamesg[d] What matters most to you in a restaurant / cafe / coffee shop review?
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capjamesg[d] Thanks again [tantek]! (Question copied here as chat is off record)
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[tantek] aggregation of h-reviews of breakfast and coffee places of course!
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[tantek] perfect for travelers in new cities who want something local rather than bad hotel coffee or overpaying for the hotel buffet
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tomleo[m] <capjamesg[d]> "I bought a domain breakfastand...." <- I'd look at https://schema.org/Review (for markup seems like RDFa or Microdata are good options)
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tomleo[m] Do indie web foks have a preference towards microformats vs. RDFa or microdata?
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Loqi hey tomleo[m]: I don't mean to be a bother, but markup, Microdata, schema, schema.org, Microformats seems like a better conversation for #indieweb-dev
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tomleo[m] Loqi: 👍️ will do.
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[tantek] (continuing copy/pasting from #indieweb-chat)
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[tantek] maybe it's just me but soooo many times I've needed a focused search/review site like that. I mean I used Foursquare as much as I could however their categories for breakfast and coffee are too coarse / overlapping to be useful
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[tantek] capjamesg[d], do you have opinions about a good/thorough coffee & breakfast place taxonomy?
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[tantek] as for how to add content to the site, voluntary syndication makes the most sense IMO. Think IndieNews but for breakfast & coffee spot reviews
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[tantek] with a nice map UI 🙂
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capjamesg[d] Thanks for copying!
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capjamesg[d] [tantek] any thoughts on taxonomy?
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[KevinMarks] Sounds like https://where.kevin-marks.com/maptime/
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capjamesg[d] h-review syntax offers a lot of what would be useful to me.
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Loqi [Kevin Marks] Coffee, cheesecake and chill
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capjamesg[d] Love it!
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[tantek] capjamesg[d], I think there's two good ways to go about creating an empirical taxonomy for breakfast/coffee places
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[tantek] one is by analyzing the kinds of breakfast/coffee places that people review and post about, collecting them into similar clusters, looking for emerging patterns of kinds of places or some that are multiple kinds
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[tantek] the second is from the "search" perspective, what kinds of places are people looking for in particular for breakfast or coffee? what aspects matter and what don't?
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[tantek] e.g. for a long time I'd search places for "breakfast tacos" which is very specific kind of search that "big" restaurant indexes like Yelp (or even Foursquare) are not great at, unless someone had actually made a comment literally stating that they had "breakfast tacos".
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[tantek] Otherwise search results were horribly disappointing, usually some badly merged mishmash of results for "breakfast" and results for "tacos" with I'm sure some sort of complicated PhD algorithm for weighting relative frequency of terms etc.
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[tantek] for example a DDG serp for "breakfast tacos near me" (first auto-suggestion when typing "breakfast tacos") shows an irrelevant ad, two meta results (links to do searches on other sites) including a useless Yelp page that is *blank* js;dr except for the header and Doordash results for Cheesecake Factory, random cafes, and then a few Mexican places, none of which with any photos or anything that would give me any confidence that they have
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[tantek] breakfast tacos
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[tantek] finally a result for Torchy's Tacos which while excellent is not near me (it's in Austin TX), though apparently they've expanded to nearby states (but not California)
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[tantek] Google has similarly disappointing results though they try a little harder with a Google Maps mini-result first, yet with three disappointing results (one a bad part of town, two a place that is closed, three a place all the way in downtown which is certainly not "near" me)
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[tantek] and and that third place only matched because it said in the description: "… love their breakfast burrito, taco salads …" <-- note the words in different items, see above about "some sort of complicated PhD algorithm" that is actually crap for providing precise results
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[tantek] a very specific item like "breakfast tacos" should be a relatively "easy" thing to show results for, like does the place offer them or not, and if so, what kinds? None of these sites offered anything resembling "good" results like "Equator Coffee in the Marina neighborhood has a variety of locally made breakfast tacos in the morning"
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capjamesg[d] That information is helpful!
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capjamesg[d] A simple AND term search might be better than a fuzzy search with more complicated algorithms.
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capjamesg[d] If you search for “good coffee” you should immediately see reviews where someone has commented on good coffee.
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[tantek] yes this is the key. all the "fuzzy search" nonsense is *useless* for precise food searches
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[tantek] like so much noise to wade through it's not worth it
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[tantek] and on the more general side, "coffee near me" is also next to useless on DDG, and not great on Google either, because both are missing the underlying reality of a "coffee" search which is that there are so many other factors, there is no one "good" answer to "coffee near me"
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[tantek] for a general search like that, first the site has to recognize that it's too general a search to provide useful results to someone who likely has additional implicit preferences / needs
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[tantek] like is it "I want a place to grab a quick coffee to go", or "I want a place to get a really nice barista made coffee drink", or " I want a place that makes pretty colorful lattes", or "I want to grab a coffee with a friend and sit outside for a bit"
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[tantek] from what I can tell, none of the restaurant / food search efforts has ever solved *either* of these actual food search problems: very specific food search, and general food search that requires a dialog back/forth to actually get you what you want
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[tantek] ironically, *product* search, even at places like Amazon has actually somewhat solved the general search to dialog back/forth to something specific problem
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[tantek] e.g. if you search Amazon for something very general like "blanket", you will get a LONG list of subcategories and ways to refine your search (a taxonomy in otherwords) in the left column, with everything from brand name, size, color, features, theme, material etc.
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capjamesg[d] I think a “good coffee near me” search could come with a prompt with a question like “which of these factors matter most to you: affordability; quality; value for money” to refine a search
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capjamesg[d] Or yeah, like Amazon with filters to refine your search to a particular query.
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[tantek] I'd expect the same for "coffee", like yes nearly every restaurant nearby will serve some sort of coffee
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[tantek] but no one does this kind of refinement for "coffee"
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[tantek] or even factors like "open now" or "will be open by the time you walk there"
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[tantek] has plant-based milk options, will fill re-usable cups, organic coffee & additions, etc.
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capjamesg[d] Absolutely. Which is a shame because I can recommend many great coffee places in Scotland but most people won’t even know to ask.
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capjamesg[d] I see myself publishing reviews for Edinburgh cafes as an index of sorts for me and as a place to point people who want recommendations.
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capjamesg[d] Then they could read the recommendations / search for what they want.
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[tantek] ^ this is why I still use Foursquare because just often enough there will be a comment (or at least a "like") from friends who have checked into a specific coffee place whose taste in coffee I trust
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capjamesg[d] Such filters could be implemented by doing a keyword search maybe. Some sort of sentiment analysis (“offers” vs. “no”) would be helpful for filtering.
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[tantek] I'm going to say I doubt it re: keyword search. too many false positives like that "breakfast burritos, taco salads" example for "breakfast tacos"
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[tantek] much better chance with tags, e.g. tagged venues/reviews
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[tantek] and if there's a recommended taxonomy for such tags, much better chance of them being (re)used to provide better results
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[chrisaldrich] I sort of wonder if some of the food/restaurant problem is because many restaurants only have .pdf copies of their menus available and not any sort of useful structured HTML versions which might make some of the search problems easier.
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[chrisaldrich] To a one, most restaurant websites are some of the worst abominations out there.
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[chrisaldrich] My usual problem is finding a site for a restaurant at all. Most of my recent searches have popped up other silo platforms like Yelp, Doordash, etc.
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Renaming Indigenous" https://marksuth.dev/renaming-indigenous/
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marksuth[d] seeing as I'm currently re-writing (for the most part) Indigenous to be consistent across different platforms, it seemed the most opportune moment to rename the app, especially as the discussion to do so has been going on for a while now