#indieweb 2022-02-15

2022-02-15 UTC
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[tantek] I like that reframing, even if it is a bit optimistic considering the default level of argumentativeness if not outright trolling etc. on social media
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[tantek] I have never understood the strictly mutually exclusive reader "folders" or "channels" thing, because there are many different views I want to filter the *same people*.
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[tantek] mentioning it is like slack is more accurate since "people you follow" can be in more than one slack channel you follow
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[tantek] IMO Twitter "lists" make A LOT more sense from a UI perspective than mutex "folders" or Microsub "folders". being forced to pick *one* specific folder to put somebody into is extra unnecessary work for a reader, instead of being able to pick a list now, then another list later, without affecting the first list
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[tantek] even [tonz]'s example of people of varying degrees of closeness of social circles (which makes sense to me), yes that, and also I want lists that focus on specific cities that I may plan visits to, and obviously those "geo" lists will have some of the people from the "circles" lists
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[tantek] similarly if I want people I know from different communities, whether it is running, or web dev, or w3c etc. and some are in 2 of 3 (maybe a few in 3 of 3)
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[tantek] follow different communities so I can "catch up" with a specific community before I may participate in an activity
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[tantek] lists are essentially also tagged people
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aaronpk That's basically how I have my channels set up in my reader. There's nothing that says channels and people are 1:1, I have lots of people whose posts show up in multiple channels, even often sorted by keywords
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aaronpk I essentially treat the channels as different communities
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[tantek] ok, people showing up in multiple microsub channels works then, good to know
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aaronpk It works because of the separation of the different roles
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aaronpk the reader apps don't need to worry about what is providing the underlying data
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[tantek] a strict "folders" containment structure would not
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[tonz] Ideally I’d like to tag feeds. E,g. a feed Jane Blog with tags ‘coding, Berlin, Drupal, cycling, sf author’. Most feed readers that do something with tags, do so at the post level, whereas when it is about communities and getting a sense of their activity patterns, I’d like tags on the feed-as-a-whole
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[tonz] I’m still exploring if that is something I’d want on the server side, or on the client side. Probably the first for device+client combo independence, But maybe the latter for sense/scope of control. But then it would imply storage of some kind in the client and comparison with the feed lists in the server, and storage to me points to the server again.
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[tonz] With tagged feeds (who are personal voices in my reader), I could do things like ‘What have Berliners written in the weeks before I go there’, what is happening amongst Drupal users, privacy advocates etc.
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[tonz] [aaronpk] you write ‘how I have my channels set up in my reader’ …. ‘lost of people show up in multiple channels’ Servers are the ones having channels, no? So what do you do to have what reads as different channels client side?
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Code without commit" https://kinduff.com/2022/02/14/code-without-commit/
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capjamesg[d] [kinduff] Good post! I tend to get about 80% of the way on a project then start a new one and chip
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capjamesg[d] *before starting a new one and chipping away on the rest of the 20% over time.
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capjamesg[d] That's not always the case though. Some things just keep going so will never be finished, like IndieWeb Search or my blog 🙂
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kinduff Haha I know the feel! I have a couple of abandoned domains, and tables without legs.
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kinduff Thank you capjamesg[d]
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king free money
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king Loqi
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jamietanna Has anyone done a https://my.manualof.me/ ? I'm thinking that similar to https://readme.jvt.me I'll build something on my own site
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jamietanna But looking for inspiration :)
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jamietanna Maybe for #meta but is there any way to update the photo used 👆 as I've since updated on my site / it's updated in the wiki
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kinduff i like the idea
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kinduff maybe me.myname[dot]com as a convention, I like the readme subdomain you used
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kinduff there's also the /now thingy going on
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jacky yeah I think this readme style would be something I'd link to right above my mentions on a post or on a page at the bottom next to a subscription well
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[KevinMarks] website design by 6yo daughter https://kevin.tw/
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jamietanna I've got /now too, which I keep for general things going on, wheras I'd see this to be maybe something more to go into my README
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jamietanna Main thing for the README is it's for my GitHub/GitLab, and I wanted to self-host too, but I think merging it for my own readme site would work
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jamietanna *merging the manual-of and readme sites
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capjamesg[d] [KevinMarks] I just saw that. I love it!
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kinduff [KevinMarks]: that's amazing!
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[tantek] Has anyone used or had any experience with this website builder? https://onuniverse.com/bio/
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[tantek] It claims to be a mobile friendly website builder, as in doing the building on your website
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[tantek] Interesting hook with the “free” link in bio editor
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[aciccarello] That manualof.me stuff is the kind of stuff I like to put on my homepage. An faq could work too though sometimes the questions aren't something someone would ask.
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[aciccarello] I was a little annoyed that so many pages of the guide had pdf downloads though
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jacky yeah like if it's for tracking, it's weird
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jacky it's prob b/c they make things in document proccessing apps versus the Web
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[tantek] Website building on you *mobile device* is what I meant. I think that's an exceptionally important use case
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aaronpk very neat
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[tantek] on your* mobile device. Some days I just can't type (on a mobile without tactile feedback and automistakes :/ )
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kinduff [aciccarello]: i prefer geocities-style tables with stats like carisma 0 but agility 10
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[aciccarello] Yes! So fun. So meaningless.
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kinduff wanna hear something funny?
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kinduff so geocities time, when myspace and hi5 where all around
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kinduff there were these cheesy questions on these websites like: country, age, sex location, favorite movie, etc
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kinduff but there was also this question: favorite quote
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kinduff for english speaking people this was easy, a quote is a quote, done
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kinduff but for spanish speaking people, its was hilarious
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kinduff quote translates to "cita", so it was "Cita Favorita"
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kinduff can be read with two meaning in spanish: favorite quote, like intended
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kinduff but also, "favorite date", like the ideal date
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kinduff so everybody instead of putting a quote in that field, they would describe the perfect plan to have a date
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kinduff me, an intellectual, of course I did the same
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kinduff it wasn't until I grew up and learned more english that I understood the translation and our mistake
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jacky wow that's funny and also a case into why contextual translation is important lol
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barnaby is there a different spanish word for quote which would make the intent clearer?
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[aciccarello] Haha, that's hilarious. Language translation is messy.
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kinduff barnaby: good question, but I don't really know, could be "Frase" which is more explicit, like "Phrase" or "Sentence".
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[aciccarello] "Cita" is a pretty overloaded word in spanish.
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e-snail Hello! I hope this doesn't come across as inflammatory, as I just learned about this group and I'm curious: why bridge to slack and discord, which (prima facie) seem opposed to the Key Principles?
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jacky how so?
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jacky if anything, that upholds /plurality (in the sense of multiple platforms)
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jacky there's also quite a few places this chat's bridged to https://indieweb.org/discuss
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barnaby bridging to slack and discord makes interacting with the indieweb community more accessible to more people, without relying on those services for uptime or data storage, as the IRC channels and the logs are separate from them
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e-snail seems like "Own your data" goes out the window when you use discord, no?
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aaronpk the "own your data" part is that the chat logs are on chat.indieweb.org
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aaronpk so we are not relying on discord/slack for archives
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barnaby this sort of bridging indie sites and services to existing silos to avoid the network effect problem is very common here
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barnaby what is POSSE?
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Loqi POSSE is an abbreviation for Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere, the practice of posting content on your own site first, then publishing copies or sharing links to third parties (like social media silos) with original post links to provide viewers a path to directly interacting with your content https://indieweb.org/POSSE
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barnaby also welcome e-snail!
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jacky what is own your data
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Loqi own your data is an IndieWeb principle with two key parts: 1) your data lives primarily under your own domain, and 2) you are able to retain your access over time https://indieweb.org/own_your_data
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e-snail I guess I'm thinking less about the technical aspect of the bridging and more that (IMO) recommending either of those solutions is counter to the idea of a less-corporate web when there are open standards available
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jacky open standards are used - in fact it's the bedrock of the bridging system ;)
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jacky IRC
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aaronpk the other part of the picture is that chat systems are not personal websites
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aaronpk and the indieweb focuses on personal websites, not general open source and general decentralization
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Loqi friendly reminder barnaby aaronpk, can you move the tech talk (Microformats, open source) to #indieweb-dev to keep this channel more inclusive and inviting?
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aaronpk i'm trying loqi :)
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jacky aaronpk++ on that point
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Loqi aaronpk has 16 karma in this channel over the last year (134 in all channels)
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barnaby Lo
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barnaby Loqi: I didn’t say either of those words!
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aaronpk omg loqi thought e-snail was a microformats class 😂
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sknebel lol
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barnaby :o
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[schmarty] loqi++
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Loqi loqi has 6 karma in this channel over the last year (23 in all channels)
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sknebel loqi--
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Loqi loqi has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (22 in all channels)
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[schmarty] gives Loqi an e-cookie
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Loqi enjoys the e-cookie
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e-snail OK, thanks for all the quick answers everyone :)
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jacky totally :)
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e-snail the summary I am putting in my head: tho Discord and Slack are evil to be abhorred [my own opinion :)], this group isn't focused on free and open chat, but personal web sites over social media silos, so bridging to the Unclean Ones is acceptable, as it allows more people to participate in the goal
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aaronpk sounds about right, with emphasis on you can participate in the chat without ever joining discord and slack because of the bridging
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barnaby e-snail: exactly! many of us have taken part in discussions here for years despite never having used slack or discord
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barnaby and as you can see from our wiki, we’re also critical of those platforms https://indieweb.org/Discord https://indieweb.org/Slack
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e-snail welp, I'm satisfied :P
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e-snail I've been thinking about this idea of everyone having a personal domain for social networking for a while, and I'm glad to find this group
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barnaby cool! do you have a personal site?
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e-snail and I like this POSSE idea, which was sort of proto-formed in my mind
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e-snail barnaby: I do, mainly for self-hosting services, and I set up a little flask blog on it last month, but I'm going to switch it over to a static site generator before I actually get to work writing anything :P
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kinduff e-snail: I'm bridging over Matrix, e.g.
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kinduff make sure to share it with us, we're always looking for new friends, and welcome too! great questions
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capjamesg[d] e-snail Welcome!
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Loqi friendly reminder kinduff, capjamesg[d], it seems like this conversation is more appropriate for #indieweb-dev (Microformats)
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capjamesg[d] I just said welcome Loqi 😂
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aaronpk :sigh:
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capjamesg[d] e-snal What static site generator are you thinking about using?
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capjamesg[d] *e-snail
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capjamesg[d] Technical details are more for #dev though. Maybe Loqi is a mind reader 😂
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kinduff lmao loqi++ love that edge-case
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aaronpk gives loqi a tune-up
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Loqi gives back the tune-up
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[schmarty] lol
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capjamesg[d] I smell a robot uprising coming 😂
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e-snail I'll be sure to share the link once I have something to share. Is there a list of other public indieweb sites? (at the risk of upsetting the bot, I plan to use pelican for site gen)
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barnaby https://indieweb.org/people has some links
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barnaby and you can ask loqi about any particular person here who’s signed up to the wiki
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barnaby e.g.
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barnaby who is barnaby?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/User:Waterpigs.co.uk
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barnaby ha ha talking of which I should update that
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e-snail nice
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aaronpk also https://indieweb.org/chat-names
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e-snail also, sorry my nick breaks the bot :(
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aaronpk i have hopefully fixed the bot
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aaronpk as long as nobody joins the chat as e-content
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[tw2113_Slack_] must…resist
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e-snail is now known as h-card
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aaronpk oh no
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capjamesg[d] 😂
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capjamesg[d] e-snail My domain name is jamesg.blog 🙂
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capjamesg[d] Also check out https://indieweb-search.jamesg.blog to search sites by keywords. Please note the engine is *highly* experimental and has just undergone a migration.
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capjamesg[d] [edit] Also check out https://indieweb-search.jamesg.blog to search sites by keywords. Please note the engine is *highly* experimental and has just undergone a migration.
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capjamesg[d] Feedback is appreciated if you want to give any.
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e-snail capjamesg[d]: nice design
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aaronpk hm do we have a wiki page to collect all these links for how to find community members sites?
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aaronpk what is discovery?
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Loqi Discovery is a variety of methods for finding content, websites, communities, or people to follow on the web including search, directories, recommendation engines, tags, or other serendipitous methods https://indieweb.org/discovery
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aaronpk that works
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barnaby it clearly doesn’t know much about my site xD https://indieweb-search.jamesg.blog/results?query=hurdy+gurdy
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barnaby although there are some results for just “gurdy” by itself, where my site comes up
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capjamesg[d] 😂
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capjamesg[d] barnaby That's a query I would have never have thought of searching. Thank you!
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capjamesg[d] Can I get some credit for getting your name search page right? https://indieweb-search.jamesg.blog/results?query=barnaby+walters 😂
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barnaby I like that it implies that “Another breakthrough in the increasingly relevant field of linguistic cryptozoology” is a description of me
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sknebel :D
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capjamesg[d] I will need to check how that happened but I have a hunch.
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barnaby and very interesting that it ranks so many things from my old Places so highly. I never use it as I don’t really do checkins, and have been meaning to remove the link from the main navigation for ages
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capjamesg[d] The crawler works better when meta descriptions are available.
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capjamesg[d] Let me see why they rank so highly.
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[aciccarello] Should indiewebring be on /discovery?
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aaronpk yea!
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[aciccarello] ⌨ ...
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capjamesg[d] Hm that is actually strange barnaby.
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capjamesg[d] (I noticed the results page JSON API is broken otherwise I would share a link!)
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barnaby I was going to mention indiewebring too, but the website isn’t very friendly to outsiders. there’s no list of sites, and no way to start navigating the webring from https://🕸💍.ws
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barnaby the wiki page is good though
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capjamesg[d] It seems none of those URLs have any incoming links from different sites which is what I thought might have boosted them.
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capjamesg[d] Let me share the ranking weights.
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[aciccarello] I might combine it with the microcast club as a list of relevant webrings 🤔
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barnaby oh there is https://xn--sr8hvo.ws/directory but it’s not very obvious
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capjamesg[d] I think I get it now.
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capjamesg[d] This interests me quite a bit.
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capjamesg[d] https://github.com/capjamesg/indieweb-search/blob/main/elasticsearch_server/constants.py#L21
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capjamesg[d] So your name isn't in any field other than page content and title.
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capjamesg[d] Title gets a boost because titles are likely to indicate the topic of a page.
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sknebel ... posting source code links is the point where -> -dev please :D
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jacky :)
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capjamesg[d] Ah sorry...
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capjamesg[d] Loqi really is a mind reader.
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capjamesg[d] I get carried away.
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sknebel no problem :)
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capjamesg[d] Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 6 karma in this channel over the last year (23 in all channels)
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aaronpk in other news, discord is down, good thing we have bridges elsewhere
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jacky plurality++
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Loqi plurality has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (3 in all channels)
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jacky bridging++
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Loqi bridging has 1 karma over the last year
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jacky what are donations
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Loqi donation is a rare type of post, often just a note, indicating an act of giving items or money to another person, or organization https://indieweb.org/donations
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jacky ah I was looking for https://indieweb.org/pledge
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jacky I don't know why (outside of remembering and having a place to link, lol) but I wanna list out the things I donate money to (EFF et all) and maybe even give reasoning as to why
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e-snail jacky: (RE: I don't know why) cuz there is an ever-growing list of entities accepting donations, and it's helpful to others in figuring out where to give :)
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[schmarty] jacky: i've really enjoyed the Fairness Friday series that benwerd has been doing: https://werd.io/content/all/?q=fairness+friday
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kinduff @barnaby just added my profile!
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Loqi e-snail has 1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] e-snail++ for the h-card joke and welcome! 🙂
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e-snail [tantek]: thanks :)