#indieweb 2022-04-19

2022-04-19 UTC
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Kongpc KAMPANAT THUMWONG
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[aciccarello] !kick KONGPC
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Loqi KONGPC joined 17 minutes ago and can no longer be kicked this way
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petermolnar though this is much less subtle that how indieweb usually communicates, it might be what the people need to hear: https://paintkiller.neocities.org/imgs/yesterwebputmatPAINTKILLER.jpg
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petermolnar ah, this is where it came from: https://yesterweb.org/graphics/pubmats.html
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sknebel also not entirely compatible with the subset of indieweb activity that you could describe as "enable scrolling for the independent web"? ;)
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sknebel (well, still is if you read it more in the consumption vs creating angle I guess)
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petermolnar I'm aware it's not "compatible"
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petermolnar but given the indieweb approach to plurality I also don't really agree that we should make every and all social media invention possible
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[jamesg483] I like this one: https://yesterweb.org/img/graphics/softannalee.png
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sknebel petermolnar: which is why I said "subset of" - its only one part of what some people do
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sknebel not a overall-defining thing
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[tantek] yesterweb feels nostalgic in framing
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petermolnar I believe it serves a purpose
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petermolnar there are multiple generations who don't know you can have customizable interfaces, or a website you completely design yourself
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petermolnar the yesterweb framing is basically "this used to be a thing, use to be possible, and it still is, why not revisit it and bring it to 2022"
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[Sam_Butler] Regarding conversations on Twitter x Elon x public ownership, I wonder if we can take a step back and wonder — what would a type of public infrastructure for microblogging, that we desire, really look like?
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[Sam_Butler] It seems like the Indieweb / POSSE approach is much more aligned and resonant with where we're going (in terms of network topology, how data is stewarded, p2p, etc). The only issue is, the barrier to entry for everyday people without technical backgrounds being able to set up their own Indieweb presence with POSSE, webmentions, etc
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[Sam_Butler] A sort of CMS (hosted for non-devs, or one you can self-host) comes to mind — something that abstracts the complexity of getting a domain name and setting it up, writing code, managing a website, webmentions, deployments, etc. Basically, what would it take to lower the barrier to entry for Indieweb/POSSE, and make it as accessible and empowering and simple for people as Twitter is?
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Loqi [Sam_Butler]: we try to keep dev talk (deployments, P2P) out of this channel, can you move to #indieweb-dev?
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[snarfed] [Sam_Butler] yes! micro.blog is basically that, even including registering a domain name and hooking up DNS automatically, behind the scenes. it's basically a turnkey indieweb host, [manton] et al have done amazing work. (Manton, correct me if I'm wrong on anything here!)
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[snarfed] also, critically, it's a paid host with a reasonable pricing, $5/mo, which gives at least a chance at a sustainable business model that's not based on ads (with all of their downsides)
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[tw2113_Slack_] oh yeah, i have a micro.blog that i forget to use
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[snarfed] chat here obviously leans toward power users, so not as many of us use micro.blog for our primary sites, but it's still a critical and awesome piece of indieweb infrastructure
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[Sam_Butler] Thanks for the pointer [snarfed]! Yes, micro.blog looks very relevant. In terms of pricing, I'd be glad to pay like $5/month — but rather as a user-owner/steward in a cooperative structure? The lack of open-source (apparently) is also something that would hold me back from adopting. In line with "the medium is the message", for this type of infrastructure to be closed/proprietary underneath (if the intention is for it to serve
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[Sam_Butler] large audience) just seems like a repetition of the same patterns that have gotten us here
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[snarfed] I think parts of it are open source, but not all. beyond that, the key difference is the primacy of using your own domain name and having usable data export. those are key indieweb starting points, and key differentiators from current silos
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aaronpk i really don't think these tools need to be open source to be useful, in practice most people do not read or modify the source code of open source tools they use
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Loqi hey [snarfed], aaronpk, would you mind moving this conversation (open source) to #indieweb-dev? thanks!
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[snarfed] meh
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aaronpk also that ^^
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aaronpk open source is not a user feature
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[tantek] yup
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[tantek] Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 6 karma in this channel over the last year (29 in all channels)
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[tantek] [Sam_Butler] you went from "what we desire" to "would hold me back from adopting". Great to discuss either (how to build something that's more accessible to more folks) or (making what I want to use), but don't conflate them.
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[tantek] what is make what you want
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Loqi Make what you need is an IndieWeb principle that helps creators focus on creating & publishing things prioritized by what they need & want for their own personal site https://indieweb.org/make_what_you_want
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jacky re: petermolnar's point about yesterweb; my siblings would most def not know they could do this
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jacky like I was on the tail end of myspace (which IMO was the last massive and publicy place to customize a site for social purposes online - in the US, at least)
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jacky now everything is extremely sterile and optimized for the engagement
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aaronpk it should be possible to encourage people to do fun stuff like this in the current web without needing to turn it into a nostalgia trip
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[Sam_Butler] [tantek] Indeed. I suppose the logical thought is, micro.blog is similar to something I would desire, and yet the lack of open-source and proprietary structure is something that would hold me back from adopting. It's not quite the same as this blog post, but something I often think about along those lines (https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/06/03/strategy-letter-iii-let-me-go-back/)
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jacky aaronpk: true!
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jacky I don't know if we've (like the industry) groomed people to be less curious about things like this though
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jacky it feels like it at times
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jacky but in a way, it doesn't?
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jacky because of the proliferation of things people tend to create (Lens on Snapchat, Stickers on Instagram, videos on TikTok/YT/etc)
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jacky maybe the medium that the creativity has once existed at has moved?
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jacky could be thinking about this too hard lol
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[Sam_Butler] [jacky] related to people being less curious, it reminds of Ivan Illich's "Tools for Conviviality"
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[Sam_Butler] In general, we've become less used to producing things, and more used to being passive consumers — across any industry or institution. Tools for Conviviality was written in the 70s by the way, so there has been something like a "grooming," although I'd argue that it has origins much earlier than the tech industry and is a part of a larger pattern. So basically, "yes and" to your questions!
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[Sam_Butler] https://arl.human.cornell.edu/linked%20docs/Illich_Tools_for_Conviviality.pdf
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[Sam_Butler] *than the modern tech / Internet industry
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[tantek] aaronpk exactly. no need to resort to nostalgia for advocacy
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[tantek] [Sam_Butler] I agree with your user-need premise of /migration but STRONGLY disagree that requires (or even implies) "open source".
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jacky don't tell Disney that lol (but I understand tho)
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[tantek] The Joel article is a great example. open formats are what matter for migration, not OSS
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Loqi hey [tantek]: it looks like this conversation is getting pretty technical (open source, OSS), can you take it to #indieweb-dev?
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[tantek] yep, sorry, hard to thread that line with debunking dev requirements
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[tantek] jacky lol
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[manton] [Sam_Butler] Good feedback. For the “cooperative structure”… This is actually something I’ve thought a lot about recently. I want Micro.blog to stick around for a long time. (We have a bunch of open source at github/microdotblog, but not the core part of the platform yet because it’s really too much trouble to host yourself. Openness with domain names, APIs, and data formats is a bigger win right now for more people, as [snarfe
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[Sam_Butler] Glad to hear it, [manton]! If you'd like to chat about that (e.g. coop structure), let me know any time!
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[manton] Thanks!
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[tantek] coopstructure++
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Loqi coopstructure has 1 karma over the last year
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jacky though not immediately related, [manton], have you seen https://comradery.co/? It's a bit like Patreon but in a cooperative setup
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jacky I've been very curious to see if something like this could be applied to a hosting context
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[manton] Thanks, I hadn’t seen that… Checking it out.
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jacky how it works page: https://comradery.co/p/howcomraderyworks
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jacky yeah I try to keep my eye out for things like this (that are working too)
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[tantek] ooh this looks very cool jacky++
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Loqi jacky has 8 karma in this channel over the last year (71 in all channels)
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[tantek] I like the statement of values / rough structure on that how it works page. And especially that they’re upfront with who is involved / bios etc., in stark contrast to so many dweb/web3 hype projects
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jacky they use it themselves! https://comradery.co/development
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[tantek] eating their own cooking!
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jacky [tantek]: exactly! human-centric
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[tantek] have to admit I particularly took notice that two of the organizers/founders had "labor organizer" in their bio
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[tantek] this is exactly the kind of thing I've been hoping to see in contrast to the eager yet misguided eVerYThinG ShOuLD bE a DAO! crowd
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[tantek] just read through there twitter a bit to see about updates and thoughts and yup, they're web3 skeptics as well: https://twitter.com/comraderycoop/status/1508891816585617409
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@comraderycoop these hacks sure do keep happening 🧐 https://twitter.com/JohnReedStark/status/1508890651072647179 (twitter.com/_/status/1508891816585617409)
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[tantek] jacky, I added Comradery here (closest place I could find that made sense as a place to list them) https://indieweb.org/pledge#Community_Examples
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[tantek] feel free to expand/update (or move if you think there's a better place to document them)
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[KevinMarks] That does look good. One of the challenges of building these kind of support organisations has been the mismatch with venture Worldview
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[manton] While it’s not a co-op, I also like the Automattic + WordPress Foundation model where there’s a non-profit that can think about the long term outside of any one company.
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[tantek] [manton] you mean like the Mozilla Foundation + Corporation model? 😉
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[tantek] (admittedly, having them explicitly named quite differently was something Automattic + WP did better IMO)
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petermolnar aaronpk: "it should be possible to encourage people to do fun stuff like this in the current web without needing to turn it into a nostalgia trip" I disagree, for two reasons: 1) modern design is either boring & sterile or ridiculously overcomplicated to look good 2) nostalgia is NOT a negative thing
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petermolnar besides, if nobody is showing that possibility, the reason could be that it's not that simple or possible
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petermolnar we are not doing it for sure; anyone and everyone picking indieweb up fairly quickly realises that we're overwhelmingly about the tech aspect
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petermolnar I'd much rather drown in positively presented nostalgia than criticism and copy of social media
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[tantek] it's ok if we have different folks pursuing each
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[tantek] petermolnar, if appealing to a nostaligic web resonates with you, great, more power to you with that on your personal site, and building momentum behind it
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[tantek] for some folks, if the need they have to meet is escaping / replacing social media, and they’re doing it with their personal site, more power to them too!
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[tantek] at least we know what to name our different teams if we have a capture the flag community-building event or something: The Retro Nostalgics vs The Anti Social Medians
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russ_bain Hi guys! I just discovered indieweb
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GWG Welcome...
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russ_bain Thanks!
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russ_bain First question: which domain registrars do you recommend using?
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[tw2113_Slack_] welcome to the cool kids club that everyone forgets 😛
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[tw2113_Slack_] I’ve used dreamhost for as long as i can remember, and have zero complaints when it comes to domain registering
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GWG I use Namecheap...switched to them from another company.
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GWG I only get annoyed when they offer me something on discount for the first year...not a .com, but some of the newer ones, I have to remember to check the renewal price before I commit
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GWG .blog is one I really thought would be cheaper
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GWG Sorry.. I'm rambling
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russ_bain Okay, so be diligent about checking extension costs... got it.
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russ_bain You guys got any referral and or discount codes for domain registry? Happy to kick down some pennies when the time comes.
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[snarfed] https://gandi.net/ is also well regarded. and if you're looking for a host too, check out https://micro.blog/ , they have domain registration built in
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russ_bain Thanks for the tips! gtg bbl
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[tantek] russ_bain, you can also ask "what is" for nearly anything indieweb related, e.g.
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[tantek] what is a domain registrar
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Loqi A personal domain is a domain name that you personally own, control, and use to represent yourself on the internet https://indieweb.org/domain_registrar
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[tantek] ^ click that link for a bunch more suggestions with reasons/links
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[tantek] Has anyone tried joining the Yesterweb webring? https://webring.yesterweb.org/submit/
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[tantek] https://yesterweb.org/webring/
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