#dev 2016-10-30

2016-10-30 UTC
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@linux_everyday https://indieauth.com - Sign in with your domain name (using the rel-me-auth https://t.co/2jrZUPnNgN protocol. #linux_everyday (twitter.com/_/status/791366536221093888)
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ben_thatmustbeme so, I'm starting to get my thoughts down on messaging platforms. Any thoughts on where XMPP went wrong?
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plindner I'll start. Too many XEPs meant that you had an inconsistent user experience. There are many more. Also XMPP is still successful in its niche, so I wouldn't say it went wrong...
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ben_thatmustbeme its certainly still used, but the idea of having one messaging protocol to cover them all didn't really work
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sknebel my impression is that there were 2 major things: took to long for good mobile solutions (with the de-facto requirement for push notifications) & history sync, large players didn't care about/opposed federation
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sknebel I'm sure bear has well-informed thoughts as well
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KevinMarks Google, Twitter and Facebook were all using xmpp initially
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KevinMarks See https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/kellan/beyond-rest for a discussion of xmpp vs feed polling
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KartikPrabhu what's the relation between XMPP and feeds?
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KartikPrabhu I thought XMPP was for "chat"
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KevinMarks And here's Joshua casually suggesting pubsubhubbub http://joshua.schachter.org/2008/07/beyond-rest
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KevinMarks The problem of feeds was polling and latency. Xmpp as an intermittent message system fits in between and was used as infrastructure for this for a while
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KartikPrabhu oh didn't know that
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KevinMarks Which meant you could get your tweets in gtalk
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bear reads scroll back
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bear xmpp is for chat, but it's also a persistent server connection and extensible (the very thing most web chat devs complain about) so it has many other uses
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bear one of the biggest slow downs for xmpp adoption this generation (it was very well adopted for the previous two generations of the "internet" is that this generation (and I'm being a bit grumpy here) was all about NIH and web - both of which the xmpp community avoids
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bear but now that has radically changed - you can get xmpp on the backend and frontend and never leave the warm embrace of the js/json world
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bear hipchat uses xmpp on the backside, and slack uses something similar - anyone who builds a chat app soon finds out two things - scale and security are hard
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bear guess which two things xmpp world has tons of experience in :)
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bear gets off of his sunday soapbox
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bear so I would love to talk to ben_thatmustbeme about xmpp :)
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bear checks on micropub.rocks for anything new
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bear no new tests, I wonder if I have the brain cycles to start making a python helper lib for some of the mf2/micropub idioms that were cumbersome
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ben_thatmustbeme Bear. My thinking is less along chat lines, I feel like xmpp became too much associated with persistent chat connections and not about basic connection
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bear it's always been perceived as that by others, by far the most visible of use cases for any xmpp library or app is chat
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bear the core protocols for xmpp changed a lot when mobile hit the scene because it was not an always on connection - so things were added onto it to all for session restore, throttling and the like
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed. so my thinking has been more along the way of standardizing direct messaging more than trying to be a catch all for everything
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bear I may not be understanding all of your point then - you can't get more direct in messaging (chat or otherwise) than with a federated xmpp id (aka a JID)
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm just trying to get thoughts out, i'm not really making any points right now
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bear ohh
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ben_thatmustbeme trying to elicit people's thoughts too
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bear cool - then i'm not hopelessly lost :)
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ben_thatmustbeme lol
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bear what I love about xmpp is also what folks don't like about it; because the organization and documenation of xeps is wanting
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bear what your talking about in your thoughts is *exactly* what google, facebook, twitter and others were trying to solve with using xmpp on the backed -- but then it devolved into a silo mess and the use of xmpp failed because of blocks around identity - not the protocol itself
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ben_thatmustbeme So Im hoping to look at it is identity management is really only in one place, and that becomes a point of competition
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bear i've always wanted to have xmpp just be one of many delivery mechanisms for someone's identity
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bear have a contact manager that lists xmpp, irc, email, sms ... and then delivery based on online status, priority, and so on
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bear using indieweb for discovery - my methods of contact would be in my bear@bear.im profile and then it's up to the sender's client to figure out the best method
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KevinMarks The identity issue in xmpp is that it is email-like, hence another rabbit hole mapping into urls
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bear yep, but i've always considered that a feature - it means that any indieauth id (aka your domain) can be used to discover the xmpp jid by SRV discovery
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bear plus it can also be hidden if it's a real issue
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