#dev 2017-01-21

2017-01-21 UTC
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@wpmudev Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for WordPress https://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/?p=153678 #wpmudev (twitter.com/_/status/822603376366120967)
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@muc_webdesigner Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for WordPress https://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/?p=153678 #wpmudev (twitter.com/_/status/822603741362880513)
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aaronpk uggghhhhh can't get emoji to work
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aaronpk there we go
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www.boffosocko.com edited /IndieNews (+435) "WordPress plugin; sending bookmarks" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (+110) "IndieNews Plugin" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieNews (-20) "update instructions. voting was removed some time ago." (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieNews (+72) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k_naming_convention (+9) (view diff)
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@jbjohansson @ChrisAldrich Haha. Just started implementing webmentions; peeked at your boffosocko html ;-) (twitter.com/_/status/822657765818634240)
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KartikPrabhu you can't just copy databases due to "migrations"
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KartikPrabhu baaah I hate this stuff
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KevinMarks That's the orm trap. Can you dump the dbs
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KevinMarks A
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KevinMarks As tsv and recreate from that
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KartikPrabhu I could but doing it constantly between my local site and the live site is annoying
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jonnybarnes.uk edited /pgp (+147) "/* Terminology */ mention GnuPG 2.1 releases" (view diff)
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@ChrisAldrich @jbjohansson Mine isn't as refined as @dshanske, @pfefferle, or @schnarfed. If you haven't come across it yet: https://webmention.io/ (twitter.com/_/status/822856864119619584)
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voxpelli aaronpk++ for enabling WebSub for IndieNews :)
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Loqi aaronpk has 26 karma in this channel (1181 overall)
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aaronpk \o/
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voxpelli aaronpk: though it looks like it may have broken something
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aaronpk uhoh what
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voxpelli https://news.indieweb.org/en is dead
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aaronpk oh dear
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aaronpk oh i forgot to update the config :)
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aaronpk fixed
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aaronpk i think that can count for my project for today right?
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aaronpk it's stretching the definition of "visible" ...
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tantek good morning #indieweb-dev
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voxpelli I think that certainly counts, will be very visible when it gets traction
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tantek what's the specific?
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aaronpk i just enabled WebSub for indienews
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aaronpk well that's odd. woodwind fails to subscribe to websub.rocks
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aaronpk oh i think woodwind is ignoring the rel=self
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tantek sounds like a good thing to test!
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tantek has to come up with something for 100DoPP before he can offer an opinion on "can count" or not for anyone else's daily project :)
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aaronpk is confused
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Zegnat will launch his 100Do thing today
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voxpelli just backdated his default publish dates by 15 seconds to avoid time sync issues with his build servers
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aaronpk ooh
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aaronpk woodwind++
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Loqi woodwind has 1 karma in this channel (3 overall)
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aaronpk caught a bug in websub.rocks!
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aaronpk huh where did the thing in woodwind go that showed you the websub debug stats
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Zegnat Isn’t that supposed to work the other way around, aaronpk? ;)
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aaronpk nobody's perfect Zegnat
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tantek aaronpk what's the type of map display called where there's a bunch of points just plotted on a map? perhaps as pins (e.g. Google Maps red pins)
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tantek what is Google Maps?
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Loqi Google Maps is a Google's web application for viewing a map, getting directions, and keeps track of your location history (opt out) https://indieweb.org/Google_Maps
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tantek Google Maps << https://developers.google.com/chart/interactive/docs/gallery/map
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loqi.me edited /Google_Maps (+67) "tantek added "https://developers.google.com/chart/interactive/docs/gallery/map" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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Loqi ok, I added "https://developers.google.com/chart/interactive/docs/gallery/map" to the "See Also" section of /Google Maps
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tantek seems like they call it Geocoded Locations
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tantek.com uploaded /File:2017-01-21-womensmarch-geocoded-locations-google-maps.png "Screenshot from https://www.womensmarch.com/sisters of a geocoded locations map chart"
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tantek.com edited /Special:Log/upload () "uploaded a new version of "[[File:2017-01-21-womensmarch-geocoded-locations-google-maps.png]]"" (view diff)
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tantek interesting I keep updating / adding to the Google Maps page on politically active days
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aaronpk in doing this indienews update and testing it with woodwind, I'm realizing the typical author+content model doesn't represent all the parts of things posted to aggregators
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tantek "parts of things" ? use-cases of things aggregators aggregate?
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tantek it sounds like you're fixing a (new to you) bug in websub.rocks!
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aaronpk most of the posts on indienews are submitted by the author. that ends up looking fine in a reader. however if someone submits a bookmark of some other site, then what should the reader show as the author?
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aaronpk if the reader shows the bookmarked site as the author (which most closely matches what it looks like on indienews) then the submitter doesn't appear in the reader
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aaronpk if the reader shows the submitter as the author, then there isn't a place to link to the bookmarked post!
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tantek aaronpk - we see this problem in Loqi summaries of bookmark posts in #indieweb and #indieweb-dev!
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aaronpk ah true, same idea!
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tantek e.g. most commonly, we see posts that show Chris Aldrich as the author of an article, but it's actually just him as the author of the *bookmark* of the article, and Loqi does not show the actual author of the article
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tantek Loqi is already an aggregator with this problem :)
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aaronpk i had the same problem when I just added microformats to https://bulletin.p3k.io/aaronpk so that you can subscribe in woodwind. it's even more subtle here, because each post there may be "submitted" by a bunch of people because they tweeted it. and in this case, Bulletin is doing its own curating so really the "bookmarker" of those posts is Bulletin!
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tantek The way I would approach this is to first document screenshots of how "bookmark" posts are presented at all, both individuall (on a bookmark permalink page), and in a list / collection, both on personal site(s) and silo(s)
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tantek and then from those, I would brainstorm text-only design equivalents of how to "present" a bookmark post
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tantek (which, like most text-only design, would also work as a method of how to POSSE said posts to Twitter)
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tantek which reminds me, we have an example of *that* in particular to look at
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aaronpk well i don't feel so bad about this being my project for today because turns out enabling websub on indienews made all these other issues apparent
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tantek or at least a whole Twitter of it: https://twitter.com/adactioLinks
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tantek did you fix the bug in websub.rocks?
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aaronpk yeah
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voxpelli aaronpk: seems like indienews have no markup saying that it's a bookmark/repost/something of the posts? seeing no u-bookmark-of
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aaronpk voxpelli: yeah i wasn't sure that was correct
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tantek then yeah, news.indieweb WebSub support which then revealed a bug that you fixed in WebSub.rocks *definitely* counts as a good productive indieweb project for the day, the visible bit being the bug fix in websub.rocks
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aaronpk true
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voxpelli aaronpk: bookmark or repost sounds correct – and if a reader then could interpret the interaction type then it could present it as "<author> <interaction> <title>" rather than "<author> posted/wrote <title>"
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tantek probably would have counted with just the "adding websub" support, but the extra visible bit is really good to point out, plus advancing a test suite is a pretty big deal
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tantek websub is one of the things that IMO helps distinguish "IndieWeb" from just "Blogs & RSS" of the early 2000s
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tantek that is, Websub enables *real time* "social web" interactions, which is something silos have that typical "Blogs & RSS" do not.
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tantek and that aspect of, we are building UX that is leveling up (and beyond) what "social media" silos provide is a key distinguising aspect from just "Blogs & RSS"
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aaronpk voxpelli: look at the top post on indienews right now. it's submitted by boffosocko.com. that one makes sense to me as a bookmark, since it's clearly submitted by him and the thing being bookmarked is on a different domain. however it's less obvious to me that the next one is a bookmark.
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aaronpk i submitted my Day 31 post to indienews. I don't have a post on my site that's a bookmark of that post. does that mean the indienews post is a bookmark? if so, who is the author of the bookmark post?
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voxpelli I think you is the author of that bookmark post. Consider IndieNews a collection and posts added to the collection makes sense to name as bookmarks of that collection
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tantek aaronpk: I think IndieNews needs to conditionalize its display on whether the thing submitted was a /bookmark post or not
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aaronpk tantek: it does!
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aaronpk it's subtle, but compare: https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2017-01-21-11-03-37.png
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tantek ooh nice!
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voxpelli in my reader I would love it to appear as "aaronpk saved <title>" or "aaronpk added <title>" just as I would love to see "boffosocko.com added <title>"
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tantek that's a great example to document
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tantek.com edited /bookmark (+634) "How to display (stub)" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk: would you consider uploading that screenshot to indieweb and adding it and a bit about it to https://indieweb.org/bookmark#How_to_display ?
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tantek (new section)
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KevinMarks Atom:source is supposed to deal with the repost issue
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aaronpk sure
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KevinMarks Though it hasn't been widely used AFAIK
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tantek KevinMarks: no one ever documented or did anything remotely resembling good "repost" design / UX with Atom so I have zero confidence in any plumbing that was designed / created abstractly
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tantek and yes, that's why it hasn't been widely used, they failed to first document / design / solve the UX problem of reposts
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KevinMarks Right, and rss was originally just for reposts so you get feeds that do that
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tantek and led with plumbing (markup) first, instead of documented use-cases / design / UX / first
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KevinMarks Eg daring fireball
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tantek rather I thought RSS was originally just for bookmarks
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tantek linkrolling as it were
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tantek not entire "reposts"
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tantek hence *summary*
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KevinMarks That's not quite fair, initially atom started with a use cases wiki, but it became a mess later
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KevinMarks Yes, true about rss
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tantek that's fair, I remember the Atom wiki before it was called Atom
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tantek pieenabled or something?
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KevinMarks But rss never did a job of distinguishing the 2 cases
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tantek yes, they at least tried to start with documenting use-cases, but never took the additional step of brainstorming design / UX before coming up with markup to represent the things in actual design / UX
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tantek anyway, we can now do a better job
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tantek by documenting things like https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2017-01-21-11-03-37.png
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tantek I'll leave it to aaronpk to upload since its his screenshot :)
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tantek (or hotlink if he prefers)
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KevinMarks That reminds me, have a look at the sharelink-examples page on the mf wiki
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tantek oh? did that finally happen?
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tantek.com edited /Google_Maps (+260) "Features: charts" (view diff)
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voxpelli it's a good thing we keep u-bookmark-of and u-url separate, in RSS/Atom it's often the u-url equivalent that gets set to the external link and the internal one is put elsewhere, like as rel-related in Daring Fireball
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KevinMarks Yes I made it yesterday
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tantek very cool. did you get a chance to show it to cramforce and ask him to contribute more if he likes?
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KevinMarks I tweeted him and he faved the tweet
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indienews-bookmark-posts.png]]""
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aaronparecki.com edited /bookmark (+712) "/* How to display */ add indienews example" (view diff)
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voxpelli aaronpk: actually not so sure about the bookmark thing, feels like we need development on the indiereader side to really figure this out – right now IndieNews is set up in such a way that the entries there are no real entries, but rather just points to external entries – and that's probably right
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aaronpk yeah that's kind of where i'm at
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voxpelli are there any indireaders that adopt some kind of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram like interface?
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aaronpk in what aspect?
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tantek presumably showing you more of the content
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tantek voxpelli: and those three are all different in how they do that!
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aaronpk showing a link preview?
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tantek T & F do that, I does not
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voxpelli and also often showing you interactions around the post, like if person X has liked it or retweeted it
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tantek Twitter shows 100% of the content of original posts in their "reader" view
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tantek FB shows only part of original post (ellipses at ??? chars) with a "More" link to view more.
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voxpelli many indiereaders seems to be be designed like a classic feed reader which in turn is designed like a classic email inbox rather than the more stream like interfaces of social medias
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tantek IG shows 100% of photo of original post, and maybe 2-3 lines of the original caption with a "... more" link for more of it
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tantek all in their "reader" modes/screens
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tantek what is a feed reader?
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Loqi A feed reader is an application (local or on the web, like the defunkt Google Reader) that subscribes to feeds (typically legacy Atom & RSS) and presents them in an interface for reading https://indieweb.org/feed_reader
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aaronpk is looking forward to getting back to work on Monocle hopefully soon
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tantek voxpelli: that's a valid criticism (re: classic email inbox) and you should add that as a new subsection on https://indieweb.org/feed_reader#Criticism
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KevinMarks Unread counts are bad in feed readers
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KevinMarks Woodwind has the collapse arrows, but I should have made the bigger
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sknebel unread-tracking (I don't insist on actual numbers displayed) is incredibly important for some types of feeds for me. The ability to turn it of on a per feed(group) basis would be nice though
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aaronpk podcasts are a great example of where you sometimes absolutely want unread tracking and sometimes really don't
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aaronpk some podcasts I listen to every episode. others like news podcasts I only care about the latest one since I don't care about last week's news anymore.
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KevinMarks True. It's hard to do read tracking in a scrolling view like woodwind, easier with the expanding single line model
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aaronpk is there a tool for previewing how an Atom/RSS feed will appear in readers?
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tantek lol
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aaronpk I can't believe this is such a terrible experience
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tantek why not? that's what happens when you put plumbing first, UX second
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aaronpk https://granary-demo.appspot.com/url?input=html&output=atom&url=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.indieweb.org%2Fen
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KevinMarks Unmung.com kind of does that
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tantek also note that RSS is a lowest common denominator approach, so there's only so much you can do. rocks to rock soup as it were
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kodfabrik.se edited /feed_reader (+1072) "/* Criticism */ Trying to formulate an inbox criticism of classic feed readers" (view diff)
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aaronpk h-entry -> atom via granary -> html via unmung
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aaronpk http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=https%3A%2F%2Fgranary-demo.appspot.com%2Furl%3Finput%3Dhtml%26output%3Datom%26url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fnews.indieweb.org%252Fen
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aaronpk good enough for me
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voxpelli ^ I'm done, please modify and change if you find anything unclear with that criticism
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aaronpk ooh feedbucket
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aaronpk http://www.feedbucket.com/?src=https%3A%2F%2Fgranary-demo.appspot.com%2Furl%3Finput%3Dhtml%26output%3Datom%26url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fnews.indieweb.org%252Fen
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voxpelli KevinMarks: I added the unread count into that criticism as well
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=https%3A%2F%2Fgranary-demo.appspot.com%2Furl%3Finput%3Dhtml%26output%3Datom%26url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fnews.indieweb.org%252Fen
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KevinMarks I should make the dates show nicer
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aaronpk okay there are a couple tools
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Loqi yea!
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KevinMarks There's also the validator
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voxpelli Flipboard had a validator once, but it seems to be broken now
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voxpelli wanted to make a validator/debug tool when at Bloglovin, but never got around to it before he quit
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KevinMarks http://validator.w3.org/feed/check.cgi?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgranary-demo.appspot.com%2Furl%3Finput%3Dhtml%26output%3Datom%26url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fnews.indieweb.org%252Fen
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petermolnar .
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tantek.com edited /100DaysOfIndieWeb (+146) "/* How to */ Optional: start post with "Day N: " where" (view diff)
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voxpelli aaronpk: just wanted to fav/like your post – if you want a project for another day, then webactions would be neat ;) Because you have none, right?
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aaronpk hm that is true
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voxpelli there's always https://voxpelli.com/demo/indie-config/ if you want to configure your browser for indie-config to get you started
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aaronpk i still can't quite wrap my head around how that all ties together
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voxpelli both me and tantek at least have it on our sites – so they can be used as a reference – would love to help if I can
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aaronpk there's some part of it that still seems like a "hack" to me, like it's taking advantage of a browser feature in a way it wasn't intended and might be removed from browsers because of that
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tantek yes it's a bit of a hack, but that's common with such "working prototypes"
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tantek the point is to show how a UI like that can / does work, in the hopes of building better ones
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aaronpk i will have to take a look at it again
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voxpelli the UI should be possible for a browser add-on to extend as well, so one can attack it from both ends
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tantek agreed - voxpelli I think there is work to be done there as Barnaby's add-on hasn't been updated in ages - and modern browsers require add-ons to be submitted etc. for better installation flow / security
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aaronparecki.com edited /feed (+189) "/* How To Test */ add test tools" (view diff)
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aaronpk not sure if that should go on /RSS and /Atom specifically or...
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tantek what is a Progressive Web App?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Progressive Web App" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek Loqi?
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tantek voxpelli: ^^^ since you did https://twitter.com/voxpelli/status/822874059537076224 :)
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@voxpelli Want to install my blog as an app? Of course you want to! After today's testing https://voxpelli.com/ is 100% PWA https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2tvmGNXUAERAMT.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/822874059537076224)
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tantek what is a PWA?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "PWA" yet. Would you like to create it?
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voxpelli a Progressive Web App is a web site that a client can progressively enhance into a standalone app that's comparable with a native app
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loqi.me created /Progressive_Web_App (+163) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by voxpelli" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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voxpelli a PWA is [[Progressive Web App]]
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /PWA (+32) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by voxpelli" (view diff)
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tantek and clearly that needs an IndieWeb Examples section voxpelli :)
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voxpelli oh dear ;) I did also post: https://twitter.com/voxpelli/status/822874254991564800
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@voxpelli @voxpelli Which of course is silly of it to be, but I want to test out a full 100% PWA so my blog will have to do as a test for that (twitter.com/_/status/822874254991564800)
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voxpelli a good example would be something like Quill, but my blog doesn't (yet) have any app like features that it makes sense for it to have
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aaronpk has anyone made an XSLT file to make Atom/RSS feeds look nicer when viewed in a browser?
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aaronpk why isn't that more common of a thing to do?
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tantek aaronpk: re: where to document it, I think we could move more of /feed (esp legacy RSS/Atom parts) to /feed_file
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aaronpk ah good idea
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voxpelli feeds shouldn't be viewed in the browser? an XSLT that just shows "open this in a feed reader" would be somewhat neat though
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KartikPrabhu i doubt many people consume Atom/RSS by viewing in the browser
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aaronpk "feeds shouldn't be viewed in the browser" lol
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tantek to answer that "why" - because 1) XSLT is a pain, and 2) people into feed files usually don't care as much about making things look nicer (since if they did, they'd likely focus more on the HTML+CSS of their website than the feed files)
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aaronpk but people *link* to their feeds and then people click those links
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tantek yes it's an odd habit
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tantek I think julien's subtome and the "follow" button work are specifically there to supersede those "link to their feeds" behaviors
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aaronpk true
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KartikPrabhu FF shows feeds nicely by default though
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voxpelli and there should be a follow webaction as well
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aaronpk ah right firefox does. chrome does not tho
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voxpelli (there was someone who actually prototyped and built a webaction follow button with indie-config that could show follow status)
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aaronpk wow what the heck did safari just do
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KartikPrabhu right, it is more strange that browser's don't have a default UA styling for Atom/RSS
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voxpelli aaronpk: open the podcast app?
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voxpelli that's what it does in iOS I think
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aaronpk i opened an xml feed in safari, it popped up a message asking if i wanted to add links from that domain to "shared links" (what is that?!) and when i clicked cancel it launched chrome with the URL of the feed prepended with feed//
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tantek lol
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voxpelli ah, right, Safari has a built in feed reader nowadays
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aaronpk wtf safari https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2017-01-21-12-32-17.png
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tantek what is Safari?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Safari" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk apparently safari has something called "shared links" which is a sidebar
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tantek hilarious dialog there
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aaronpk i don't understand what it is
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tantek well, RSS is for link sharing right?
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tantek per previous convo with Kevin
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aaronpk i can add "accounts" and "feeds" https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2017-01-21-12-33-30.png
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aaronpk clicking "add feed" opens this dialog https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2017-01-21-12-34-09.png
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aaronpk the dropdown doesnt work and i can't click "add"
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voxpelli It's on iOS as well https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/B0GHXB6c/sharedlinks.PNG
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tantek weird given the previous shutdown history
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aaronpk aha that is dependent on what page i am viewing
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aaronpk when i am on my home page then click 'add feed' it looks liek this https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2017-01-21-12-35-21.png
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aaronpk apparently safari has a built-in feed reader as a sidebar?!
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aaronpk and the subscriptions are synced between ios and osx
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aaronpk voxpelli: the URL of your "like-of" posts should actually be set to the permalink of your own post, not of the post you liked
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aaronpk oh i see the problem... you don't have a u-url property at all, so it's using the implied rules
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voxpelli aaronpk: I just fixed that
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aaronpk i don't see it yet. is it cached?
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voxpelli maybe in your browser? I see it here: https://voxpelli.com/social/2017/01/72441/
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Loqi [Pelle Wessman] Liked: https://aaronparecki.com/2017/01/21/4/day-32-indienews 21 January 2017 by Pelle Wessman
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voxpelli thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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aaronpk oh i was looking at https://voxpelli.com/social/
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voxpelli aaronpk: yeah, there I collapse them all into the very same post and skip the u-url part
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aaronpk well that's a problem :)
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aaronpk cause now you've got the implied rules thinking that my URL is the permalink of your post
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voxpelli right, um, because it makes so sense to link to a like so I have to insert it with some trick then
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aaronpk well how did you get the URL to your like that you just pasted here?
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aaronpk what if i wanted to share the URL to your like? I would have no way of finding it from your feed page
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voxpelli I got it because Quill gave me the link ;)
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voxpelli but I'm fixing it now
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aaronpk and you don't want to show the date that you posted the like?
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aaronpk i think tantek had some clever collapsing for that that also showed the time
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tantek yes I documented it but I haven't been doing a lot of like posts lately
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tantek ah I did mock it up too: https://indieweb.org/like#inline_hypertext_design (scroll to the bottom of that section)
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voxpelli I added the time now, pretty good thing to have anyway
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voxpelli (now I just need to setup a service that can give me some reply contexts so that I can stop showing raw URL:s in there and get it to actually look nice)
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tantek great, now you have a presentational hook for dt-published and u-url permalink of each post on that page!
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tantek what is a composite stream?
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Loqi A composite stream is a stream that interleaves multiple types of posts, such as notes and articles https://indieweb.org/composite_stream
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tantek voxpelli: add yourself to https://indieweb.org/composite_stream#IndieWeb_Examples :)
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voxpelli tantek: I didn't add myself there previously as it says "on their home pages" – but I guess I can solve that
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kodfabrik.se edited /composite_stream (+321) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Adding myself" (view diff)
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aaronpk voxpelli: yay now your likes look right in my reader
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Loqi woot
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voxpelli yay :)
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tantek voxpelli: yes!
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tantek definitely was the intent to document composite streams wherever people put them on their sites
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tantek I think that was just the pattern (homepage) so far
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KartikPrabhu yay! tags restored
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Loqi ?
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KartikPrabhu made them simple text objects in new DB
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aaronpk woo congrats
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Zegnat aaronpk, after sending a webmention through webmention.io I get a nice status page. But I can’t refresh that page to check its status?
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Zegnat I get “Incomplete response received from application” when I visit https://webmention.io/indiewebcamp/webmention/-I5XJx-VWy6zWwgddWHU
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vanderven.se martijn edited /100DaysOfIndieWeb (+193) "/* Other 100 Days Projects */ Add 100 Days of Shaving" (view diff)
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aaronpk uhoh
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aaronpk :sigh: "Encoding::InvalidByteSequenceError - "\xE2" on US-ASCII"
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aaronpk fixed!
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Zegnat ?
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Zegnat aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 27 karma in this channel (1182 overall)
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@keithjgrant @jensimmons I was surprised to find how much webmentions are gaining traction. Several libs available, including a… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/822948295299440643 (twitter.com/_/status/822948295299440643)
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KartikPrabhu wow! I had so much unnecessary junk in my database
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KartikPrabhu all cleaned up now