#dev 2017-01-23

2017-01-23 UTC
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miklb
GWG do you know of anyone using the templates as they are? Would love to see an example
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aaronparecki.com
edited /recipe (+190) "update my recipes!"
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GWG
miklb: No one. That is why I thought I was safe to enhance the features
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: your instagram link to the photo in http://tantek.com/2017/022/t3/dream-in-rain seems to be broken
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] a jpg. #Dream! #nofilter Stopped in the rain to take this photo. Water on the glass unintentionally took a burst of photos and this one happened to be better than the carefully cropped shot I took afterwards. #NYC #Brooklyn #LIC #LongIslandCity #ML... https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/16111071_183305332149338_924432916656685056_n.jpg
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aaronpk
works for me
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: bad text copy in their UI when you're not logged in and try to view a private post
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tantek
what is a private post
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Loqi
private posts refer to posts or portions of posts which are private to either the author or to a limited audience chosen by the author https://indieweb.org/private_post
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KartikPrabhu
oh! ok got it
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tantek
I'll document
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aaronpk
oh funny, when I visit that link, it actually redirects me to an even longer URL
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tantek
aaronpk: yes I figured out the relevant part of the URL (Same between public/private modes) and my bookmarklet cleans that up
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tantek
it's like 11 chars or something
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tantek
(of "ID")
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tantek.com
edited /private_posts (+928) "/* Silo Examples */ Instagram, private posts really side-effect of private accounts, confusing error when logged out"
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: is this the error message you saw: https://indieweb.org/private_posts#Instagram
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aaronpk
this paprika app is really good
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aaronpk
it doesn't force you to enter things in specific fields, and does a good job of figuring out what you mean
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aaronpk
you just type "1/2 cup lentils" and then when you scale the recipe up it knows how to multiply it
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aaronpk
pretty much everything is stored as freeform text, just in a couple of text boxes for the different hRecipe properties
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miklb
aaronpk the parsing engine to grab recipes off a web page is pretty good in Paprika too.
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KartikPrabhu
what is paprika?
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Loqi
Paprika is an application (MacOSX) for creating an organizing recipes for making food https://indieweb.org/Paprika
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Paprika (+43) "use uploaded screenshot, mention importing"
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aaronpk
it parses hRecipe too!
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aaronparecki.com
edited /recipe (+14) "/* See Also */"
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aaronpk
what is hRecipe
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "hRecipe" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk
hRecipe is a Microformats 1 vocabulary for marking up [[recipes]].
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loqi.me
created /hRecipe (+98) "prompted by aaronpk and dfn added by aaronpk"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /recipe (+47) "/* Aaron Parecki */"
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KartikPrabhu
should p-* properties not have any unicode characters?
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Zegnat
HTML5 classes can contain full unicode, I believe, so theoretically you could use them. Not sure about portability for that though.
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KartikPrabhu
yeah not worried about HTML but about microformats consumers
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voxpelli
microformat-node can at least parse p-* properties with åäö as well as emojis in it
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Zegnat
voxpelli, you have done p-??
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voxpelli
for testing purposes purely ?
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Zegnat
of course
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tantek
hmm - I think we have an issue on limiting chars for mf class names, because of avoiding collisions with various other frameworks and stuff
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tantek
ah yes: "The "*" for root (and property) class names consists only of lowercase a-z and '-' characters. " bottom of http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parse_an_element_for_class_microformats
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] microformats2 parsing specification
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voxpelli
tantek: perhaps a test case should be added for that, which ensures that libraries does not accept such names? because people will probably more often do trial and error than read actual docs
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tantek
huh maybe
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tantek
perhaps even for specific cases that caused the issue
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voxpelli
probably more a case of parsers wondering whether they should support it or not, so parsers may accidentally support an unnecessarily wide range of chars
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Zegnat
Is there any documentation on what frameworks were blocking non-a-z chars?
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tantek
Zegnat yes it is in an issue
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tantek
let's see if we can trace it back
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tantek
from http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&action=history we can find "2016-02-29T00:55:19 Tantek (Talk | contribs | block) (15,017 bytes) (→parse an element for class microformats: a-z\- only)"
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tantek
so apparently not, I didn't link to the issue from the change
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tantek
so looking at http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues instead (since it was an older issue)
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Loqi
microformats2-parsing-issues
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Loqi
microformats2-parsing-issues
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tantek
Zegnat, from that fragment link: Suit CSS and more frameworks mentioned in http://davidtheclark.com/on-utility-classes/
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Zegnat
Yeah, was reading
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tantek
test cases to check some of those would be welcome! along with issues filed on parsers that erroneously permit them
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Zegnat
surprises me, for some I reason I thought all unicode characters would have been permitted for property names.
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tantek
Zegnat, nah, it's typical for standards and voculary to limit such things
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tantek
s/voculary/vocabulary
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aaronpk
klicks
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loqi.me
created /iceberg_post (+177) "prompted by Zegnat and dfn added by sebsel"
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loqi.me
edited /iceberg_post (+89) "/* See Also */ new section"
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loqi.me
edited /private_posts (+19) "sebsel added "[[iceberg post]]" to "See Also""
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tantek
first time I have heard that term in that way! is there an earlier reference in the wild?
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tantek
or did this just get made up?
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sebsel
surry :(
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sebsel
Zegnat made me do it
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sebsel
see #indieweb
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sebsel
I can delete it, no prob
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tantek
no I wasn't asking to delete, just asking to understand
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tantek
there are other posting / writing styles that we don't explicitly document per se, and wondering if this was related
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tantek
e.g. inverted pyramic
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tantek
pyramid*
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sebsel
what's that?
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aaronpk
i like iceberg post! basically partial post privacy right?
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sebsel
it's just another name for it
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sebsel
yeah so it's not really a writing style like inverted pyramid, but an actual way of presenting a post
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sebsel
that is: only it's public part, and a private part after login
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tantek
aaronpk: the challenge with that specific use for iceberg post is that it's kind of a weird twist on inverted pyramid, and I'm not sure why / how it's different?
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sebsel
(I don't have a way to access the private part at the moment though)
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tantek
similarly, public "summary" in RSS feed, full content in HTML
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sebsel
yeah, but I don't show my text anymore.
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tantek
not having anything to do with private posts, but rather, syndication feed / summary
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aaronpk
iceberg post is nothing to do with a writing style tho
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Loqi
[Sebastiaan Andeweg] Seb heeft 501 woorden geschreven.
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tantek
similarly for home page *summary* of an article in an h-feed composite stream, vs. full content on article permalink
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sebsel
there is actually text in that post, but I don't publicly show it
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tantek
whether or not you make the permalink private is different from (orthogonal to) whether or not you provide a public summary in a feed or home page
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aaronpk
sebsel: i didn't expect to see the first part of the text you wrote on that link, i thought it was all private?
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sebsel
Oh no that's misleading
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sebsel
That's a webmention :)
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sebsel
I should get a 'reacties' head there.
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aaronpk
the webmention apparently was received before the post was written ;-)
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aaronpk
9:36 vs 9:38
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tantek
another similar example is paywall stuff
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tantek
public summary, paywalled full content
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tantek
is that really private if anyone can pay for access to it?
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tantek
what is a paywall
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "paywall" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek
wow thought we had that
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tantek
what is paid content
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "paid content" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek
alright nevermind, for another day
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tantek
what is business models?
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Loqi
business models are ways to offer indieweb products and or services that users pay for both for their own benefit, and in support an open indie web https://indieweb.org/business-models
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sebsel
aaronpk oops. yeah, that's weird. I actually already knew that my next post would be /3, so I just mentioned it. And I send it again after posting /3. But it's not really correct indeed
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tantek
lol mention before written
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sebsel
tantek I believe I don't. at least not intentionally
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sebsel
I had written the post :) I didn't publish it yet.
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aaronpk
haha k
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Loqi
hehe
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sebsel
better way to do it would indeed be to first post /3 (as /2) and then post the post mentioning it.
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sebsel
yeah I guess the problem with 'iceberg post' is that it's unrelated to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceberg_Theory
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sebsel
what is iceberg post?
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Loqi
iceberg post is a post that has both a public and a private part, thus an example of Partial Page Privacy https://indieweb.org/iceberg_post
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tantek
reads
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sebsel
yeah, Iceberg Theory seems to be a writing style
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tantek
that's a good wikipedia page
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sebsel
just found it after a duckduckgo on 'iceberg writing'. should've done that earlier :)
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sebsel
searching for pictures also reveals a lot of strange metaphores.
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sebsel
but that's offtopic.
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tantek
sebsel - perhaps consider updating /iceberg_post to be more about the writing style since that's prior art
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tantek
maybe keep the new addition as another possible interpretation
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sebsel
But it's not about writing styles! :(
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tantek
what it?
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tantek
it's confusing to have two things meaning iceberg that are very different
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aaronpk
iceberg
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aaronpk
is already a thing
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aaronpk
that is not writing
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tantek
metaphor
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tantek
rather two iceberg metaphors that mean different things in the same context of writing is confusing
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aaronpk
iceberg post is only related to writing in that it also involves words. it's not *about* writing, or even in the context of writing
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aaronpk
you could have an iceberg post that doesn't even have words!
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sebsel
in a way, my deleted posts are iceberg in that way too: they still have their content, but since I marked them as 'deleted', they only show a tombstone in the feed.
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sebsel
maybe making it worse with this, but that's an example.
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sebsel
I might also fully delete the content from my server, but then they would not be iceberg anymore
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sebsel
and aaronpk's 'no words': it can be a public 'Aaron made a payment' with the actual amount as a private property.
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sebsel
don't know if that's valid.
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tantek
does it need a special term? aren't all these just uses / examples of "summary" vs. "content"?
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tantek
like a summary post?
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sebsel
what is summary post?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "summary post" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek
what is a summary?
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Loqi
A summary is short text that conveys a post's main point(s), or a plain text equivalent for kinds of posts like likes and RSVPs that use other properties to convey their meaning https://indieweb.org/summary
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tantek
sebsel it sounds like you've identified more use-cases for using "summary" - perhaps add them there?
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sebsel
it might be
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tantek
at least to the Brainstorming section?
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sebsel
So that would make my iceberg post a private post with p-summary
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tantek
because you can have a post with just a "summary" property and no "content"
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sebsel
and I would then choose that all my private posts have a public summary
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sebsel
and no private summary
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tantek
yes that makes sense, unless their very existence is private
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sebsel
then you would not publish a summary.
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sebsel
I actually hide all my private posts from my feed now though.
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tantek
that's different than deleted posts then
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sebsel
what is deleted?
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Loqi
A deleted is a post that has been removed https://indieweb.org/deleted
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sebsel
But that's a different thing then.
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tantek.com
edited /Planning (+145) "/* NYC */ interested in co-organizing an IWC Brooklyn in particular. cc GWG"
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seblog.nl
edited /summary (+273) "/* Brainstorming */ + private posts"
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seblog.nl
edited /iceberg_post (+107) "added tanteks criticism"
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tantek joined the channel
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loqi.me
created /Social_API (+31) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek"
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Zegnat
Just reading. But sebsel’s current iceberg post implementation does not in any way remind me of a summary. It sounds like a private post type that you want to give an alternative public representation. But that alternative representation does not necessarily work as a summary of the actual private thing. E.g. he makes a private writing post (maybe
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Zegnat
it’s a chapter of his next book) and he stores that on his server, but obviously does not want to show that. He still wants to have a post in his feed expressing he did some writing though. So he adds an alternative public part to his private post. He would not post an actual summary of the private thing.
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tantek
Zegnat, that example in particular, chapter of a book, I feel I have seen with actual content in the summary in practice
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tantek
so I'm not sure I agree
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tantek
also from that perspective, the visible tip of the iceberg *is* part of the *actual* iceberg
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tantek
it's not just a "warning about the iceberg"
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tantek
so it really is a summary
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tantek
whereas if you're posting something that has no summary at all, then the term iceberg makes even less sense
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voxpelli
"He still wants to have a post in his feed expressing he did some writing" - well the _activity_ and the _output_ of that activity is two distinctly different things
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voxpelli
So then just make two posts – one representing that an activity happened and then a decoupled other representing the output of said activity
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voxpelli
The summary of a post doesn't represent the activity of creating that post – it represents a summary of the content of that post, which is a distinctly different thing
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Zegnat
voxpelli, that seems to be what he has implemented right now. He wrote a thing using his web engine, and instead of showing the thing he wrote, he showed something that is indicative of the thing (in this case, the amount of words he wrote).
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aaronpk
i experimented with that some last year when i was rebuilding p3k. it didn't make it into the final cut.
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Zegnat
Yes, voxpelli, which is why I was saying this isn’t a summary ;)
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voxpelli
Zegnat: ok, and how does that relate to this "iceberg post" thingie? which sounds like it's just a different word for public page upgrading
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Zegnat
I am looking at what sebsel built: a post type where he writes text, and instead of showing that text, he only publicly shows the word count and the fact he has done writing.
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Zegnat
That is the implementation he called “iceberg post”.
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Zegnat
Maybe the term “iceberg post” is still not right, but I would not call what he implemented a summary.
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tantek
Zegnat, sure, it's more meta, like a diff
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tantek
but certainly not an iceberg in any meaning. maybe a photo of the tip of an iceberg on the horizon :P
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voxpelli
Seems like "iceberg post" is just public page upgrading, and then sebsel has decided he want the summary of a piece of content to be coupled with the activity of creating that content rather than have the two be decoupled from each other
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tantek
sounds like just "activity"
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tantek
in the classic "activity streams" way of thinking
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voxpelli
I'm a bit suprised in a way there's no generic way to mark up activities – seems like each activity so far has gotten its own top level h-*
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voxpelli
nope, not top level h-*, but top level p-*
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aaronpk
we haven't really seen examples of publishing activities at all yet. mostly we publish posts/actual content. i think the closest to activites we see are the posts such as "liked this post"
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voxpelli
Something like: <div>Pelle <abbr class="p-activity" title="sell">sold</span> something</div>
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voxpelli
with extra data etc of course
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tantek
what is Firefox Activations
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tantek
voxpelli: there's no generic way to markup activities because there's never been good enough use-cases documented for actually bothering to *consume* and *display* them!
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tantek
and in general, "activity" is an unnecessary level of "meta"
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tantek
x posted y
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tantek
is meta
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tantek
instead of just author:x, post-content:y
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tantek
similar with likes, etc.
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tantek
this was a long big debate back in the early days of AS2 at W3C
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tantek
and we pretty much proved all the "real" use-cases that the AS folks could come up with could be massively simplified by dropping the unnecessary "activity" abstraction
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voxpelli
tantek: that can totally be true, but rather than risking having all such activities as "p-<verb>" I would much rather have any such experimentations as "p-activity=<verb>" or similar :)
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tantek
when we researched real world examples of these "activities", in enough cases they themselves had permalinks so we didn't need the meta activity post
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tantek
so we have a /like post, not a /like activity
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tantek
for Zegnat :
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tantek
what is Firefox Activations?
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tantek
fixed
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voxpelli
If I wanted to mark up an h-feed with activities where I have sold things, updated things, wrote things, been lifting some weights, been cooking some food etc and just want to categorize them all like segnat now wanted to express his "write" activity – then it would be good not to create a thousands "u-<activity>-of" properties
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Zegnat
That doesn’t actually seem to implement Micropub in a WebExtension though
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tantek
Zegnat, no, it's a browser extension of a sort
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voxpelli
tantek: have you seen that the Social API seems to be deprecated in the next Firefox version? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1289549
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tantek
that's my point, it's something that works and you can add to your browser
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tantek
voxpelli: that's inaccurate. it's being simplified, not deprecated
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Zegnat
I was mostly focussed on getting an actual MicroPub going in WebExtension. Which would make it compatible with Opera/Chromium/Chrome/Firefox. So I skipped past things like Social API.
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tantek
like dumping the sidebar stuff that the Known add-on doesn't use anyway
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tantek
Zegnat, yes, while WebExtension would be nicer, as you point out, there are currently challenges there to be overcome
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voxpelli
Speaking of sharing stuff through browsers, this looks very similar to webactions: https://twitter.com/Paul_Kinlan/status/823466675718733825
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@Paul_Kinlan
I made a <share-button> web component. + stylable + native share + copy url + configurable share buttons test ? https://output.jsbin.com/lefoqo/3 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C22KKOMW8AAwrki.png
(twitter.com/_/status/823466675718733825)
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tantek
while my point is - Known add-on for Social API is a *working* example
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tantek
so you can use that as a starting point and iterate
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tantek
rather than banging your head against WebExtension up front
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Zegnat
The way the Social API works I belief it is impossible to ever make the endpoint configurable, except on installation. Which instantly makes me throw Social API out of the window. WebExtensions I can query for the endpoint to use and everything, only authentication is a not-yet solved issue.
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tantek
interesting criticism
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tantek
could you add that to /Social_API#Issues ?
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Zegnat
Yes, I could. Will be later tonight after I get my dailies done!
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voxpelli
looks at https://indieweb.org/posts and finds some brainstorming around post types like "p-<verb>" and "u-<verb>-of" that could just as well fit into a more generic "p-activity=<verb>" rather than have the activity verb be hidden away like that
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voxpelli
ate, read, workedout
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Zegnat
I actually discussed tracking activities like that with sebsel yesterday over burgers. Though I wasn’t sure what a feed like that would look like yet.
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voxpelli
in a lifestreaming indie-reader all of that info could be neat, but in a Twitter-style indie-reader one would probably want to strip out all such noisy activity-level items and just keep the more substantial items
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Zegnat
Well, that’s again where feed splitting comes in, voxpelli. I.e. offering a feed of only posts. That seems pretty common, even with RSS
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KevinMarks
A post tracking words written is common for professional writers too. Jo Walton and Cory Doctorow both do them
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voxpelli
would also be neat to be able to use new activity types without it having any effect on any readers, like suddenly the lifestreaming noise getting through into Twitter-level indie-readers that haven't yet added support for filtering it out
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tantek
maybe the counterpart of a /read post?
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tantek
voxpelli: the counter-example is also true - of wanting some summary to show up in existing readers without having to update them
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tantek
anybody extract videos from Twitter posts?
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voxpelli
tantek: wanting some summary of what?
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tantek
the post
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voxpelli
sure, put not a summary of eg. my new cool Runkeeper-inspired elliptical exercise logging that you probably don't care about at all unless you're my training buddy :)
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aaronpk
tantek: XRay parses videos from tweets
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tantek
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3U - great: "There is no formal specification for the M3U format; it is a de facto standard." :(
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tantek
into mp4?!?
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aaronpk
so if I repost a tweet, my post will include the video
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aaronpk
yeah twitter includes an mp4 link
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tantek
how did you extract it?
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aaronpk
there's a handful of formats linked in a tweet, i just pick out the mp4 one
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voxpelli
Zegnat: feed splitting is good, but indie-readers should be able to support filtering as well when giving a full on firehose-style composite stream
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tantek
then I'll just ask, what's the mp4 link for https://twitter.com/bubbaprog/status/822495850899374080 ?
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tantek
voxpelli, Zegnat given that *any* reader "filtering" is yet to be figured out, I'd say that's designing a bit too a priori to have a chance at getting it right
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KevinMarks
Otoh there is a formal standard for xspf but noöne uses it
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tantek
KevinMarks: because XML--
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tantek
XML_-
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tantek
XML--
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Loqi
xml has -1 karma in this channel (-12 overall)
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KevinMarks
There are formal standards that use m3u
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tantek
a whole site just for this
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Loqi
tantek: lol
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tantek
aaronpk++ thanks!
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Loqi
aaronpk has 28 karma in this channel (1183 overall)
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aaronpk
i don't think i had actually tested reposting a tweet with video yet, so i'm glad that worked :)
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tantek
what is repost with comment
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "repost with comment" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek
what is a quote
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Loqi
A quotation is a type of post that is primarily a subset of the contents of another post, and often has a citation of that other post https://indieweb.org/quote
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voxpelli
tantek: Zegnat: most large social medias filter different kinds of posts and shows them in different places though, so any reader mimicking them would have to do the same
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KevinMarks
Which cites Wikipedia for m3u
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tantek
sure, but no one has built any non-social-media alternatives to such readers
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Loqi
[Webmention Rocks!] Discovery Test #22
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aaronpk
i'm hopefully going to focus on webmention.rocks this week
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loqi.me
created /repost_with_comment (+49) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek"
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Zegnat
I think most readers currently built mirror either Twitter or RSS. So whether someone like Facebook is doing fancy splitting doesn’t really matter as nobody is mimicking them yet ;) voxpelli
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tantek
there, we've had that asked too many times
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tantek
Zegnat, readers that mirror RSS will be deadends that only a few geeks use, the world has moved on
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Zegnat
aaronpk, just seen your new webmention.rocks test come in, nice!
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voxpelli
Zegnat: well, eg. Twitter filters out likes and shows only a couple of them, so there's some filtering already – and just by having the full types of posts of Facebook, and even wider, we're past what Twitter has to deal with. Eg. how would Twitter handle bookmarks? We don't know, because they don't have to deal with it
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tantek
readers that mimick Twitter or FB have a better chance, especially if they're integrated
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Zegnat
Ah, Twitter filters likes? I don’t think they were doing that the 3+ or so years ago I was actually still using Twitter
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Zegnat
uses an RSS reader for every-little-thing
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voxpelli
Zegnat: well, typically Twitter has never shown you the likes of others unless you used eg. Tweetdeck or some other client. Only recently has they started showing you some few selected likes in your feed every now and then
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Zegnat
Interesting. Good to know!
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voxpelli
Twitter also supports turning off retweets from any user that one follows
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Zegnat
Now I should really get to doing to hashtag-100-days-of’s. Will be back later :)
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tantek.com
edited /quotation (+371) "Quote entirety with commentary, specifically, POSSE tweet implications, quoted tweet"
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tantek
just wrote down some thoughts for now
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tantek
considering implementing it for things like reposting someone's photo or video but adding my own commentary
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tantek
I find it interesting that Twitter calls it "quoted tweet" rather than "retweet with comment" for example
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tantek
that makes me think that thinking of those as "quotation" posts rather than "reposts" makes sense
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loqi.me
created /lifestreaming (+119) "prompted by voxpelli and dfn added by voxpelli"
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voxpelli
the overlap of bookmark, repost and quotation is interesting
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tantek
voxpelli: it's taken a lot of real world examples to attempt to sort those out
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voxpelli
all three could make sense for eg. shared links like https://voxpelli.com/links/
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tantek
it's nearly a useless conversation without real world examples
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tantek
because people can argue things so many ways theoretically
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tantek
does anyone POSSE quotations as quoted tweets?
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tantek
does anyone know if Bridgy Publish supports POSSEing a quotation post of a tweet to Twitter as a quoted tweet?
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voxpelli
(one could btw POSSE any quotation nowadays by using the feature that allows a text-representation of an uploaded image –> generate image of quote + add quote as text-representation)
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voxpelli
on Twitter that is
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tantek
that's probably worth adding to /quotation#Brainstorming
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tantek.com
edited /quote_tweet (+8) "see also quotation"
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tantek.com
edited /quotation (+18) "/* Quote entirety with commentary */ linky quote tweet"
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tantek.com
edited /quotation (+82) "/* Quote entirety with commentary */ Bridgy Publish feature request"
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KevinMarks
That's like what medium does to post quotes to twitter
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