#dev 2018-04-04
2018-04-04 UTC
# 
gRegorLove Weird 'criticism' here. Maybe don't publish things publicly if you're worried about it getting back to the author. https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/6074#issuecomment-378429901
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# gRegorLove That strawpoll is 50/50 currently, 125 votes.
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[kaushal_modi] May the good win (us) ;)
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@WorkingWriter WPMUDev: What Webmention and Annotation Mean for WordPress https://www.michaelmccallister.com/portfolio/wpmudev-webmention-annotation-wordpress/ (twitter.com/_/status/981335545187065856)
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mikestapp.com created /User:Mikestapp.com (+72) "Created page with "Using Hugo at the moment. Site ==> [http://mikestapp.com mikestapp.com]"" (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] It's also the "don't @ in the person I'm talking about" thing from twitter.
# [kevinmarks] Maybe the mastodon affordance would be not to webmention if its in a cw post
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# [kaushal_modi] What's a cw post?
# [kevinmarks] Content warning
# [kevinmarks] Well, that is a shame https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/6074#comment-378452136
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@nhoizey Here’s how #Webmentions lost an opportunity to gain a lot of traction… 😕
https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/6074#issuecomment-378452136
Webmentions could have been possible only on public toots, and only if the toot author checked an option.
It would have helped raise awareness for huge Webmentions potential. (twitter.com/_/status/981409244573560833)
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tantek.com edited /Mastodon (+1560) "/* IndieWeb Support */ Rejected webmention sending, some misunderstandings that could be improved with better explanations of webmention use-cases, how to handle rejections (might be useful in a more common area/page)" (view diff)
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# @nhoizey ↩️ Love #Webmentions and would be happy sending some from your toots?
Answer this poll:
https://www.strawpoll.me/15428538 (twitter.com/_/status/981415443016617988)
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@kReEsTaL ↩️ J’ai pas mal réfléchi aux webmentions et à ce que ça implique, notamment en matière de confidentialité. Pour moi, cela devrait être une option de confidentialité à disposition de chacun·e, quelle que soit la plateforme (« envoyer des webmentions : oui / non »). (twitter.com/_/status/981417077960527875)
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tantek !tell aaronpk please review: https://indieweb.org/Mastodon#Rejected and in particular, consider responding to the Gargron's thoughtful reasons for rejecting along the lines suggested in that section (thanking for the taking the time etc.)
# @kReEsTaL ↩️ @nhoizey D’autant qu’à mon avis, beaucoup de monde ignore ce que sont les webmentions, qu’elles sont envoyées par défaut. (twitter.com/_/status/981417937184665601)
# @kReEsTaL ↩️ Bref : power to the people, c’est aux plateformes type réseaux sociaux and co. de développer une option pour permettre aux utilisatrices et utilisateurs d’envoyer, ou pas, des webmentions. + Il y a un travail de sensibilisation sur le sujet à fournir. (twitter.com/_/status/981418069477265408)
# @nhoizey ↩️ Je comprendrais que certains s’émeuvent de voir leurs tweets en Webmentions sur mon blog, d’ailleurs.
Mais difficile de demander à chacun son autorisation, et dommage de se passer de l’intégralité… Choix difficile. (twitter.com/_/status/981418736900104192)
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# [kevinmarks] mastodon does implement WebSub, but it wants the other OStatus hoops jumped through to send updates iirc
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@sonniesedge _research into webmentions intensifies_ https://twitter.com/IrisClasson/status/981438214908141568 (twitter.com/_/status/981514154854019072)
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singpolyma aaronpk: nice!
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 31 minutes ago: please review: https://indieweb.org/Mastodon#Rejected and in particular, consider responding to the Gargron's thoughtful reasons for rejecting along the lines suggested in that section (thanking for the taking the time etc.)
# Loqi A reply context is the display of what a reply post is in reply to, including linking to that original post with in-reply-to markup, showing some amount of that original post like author name, icon, summary / ellipsed content, and datetime published https://indieweb.org/reply-context
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# kaushalmodi dgold: Would love a blog post on your nanopub + hugo setup. Micropub/sub/hub all goes over the top of my head at the moment.
# kaushalmodi skippy: Cool! Are you getting it?
# kaushalmodi dgold++ Thanks!
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# [kevinmarks] gah, blogger changes blogspot.com to blogspot.co.uk so brid.gy fails
# [kevinmarks] blogger--
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# [kevinmarks] you could send a url with a fragmention to show the quote, but I don't think anyone picked up that suggestion
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# [kevinmarks] ooh, is silo.pub back up?
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# [kevinmarks] I filed a bug
# [kevinmarks] aha, there is a rel-canonical
# [kevinmarks] so it may not need blogger-specific tweaking
# [kevinmarks] but woodwind.xyz is expired and in pendingDelete
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# [kevinmarks] I get the offline page for woodwind
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skippy many folks in my neighborhood use one or more FB groups to organize things like babysitters, for sale, etc. I'd like to offer a community-run alternative, and am curious about the pros and cons of using different tools. Self-hosted Known, Discourse, or Mastodon are all options. Each offer different things, so there's no perfect solution.
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# kaushalmodi skippy: My neighborhood uses nextdoor.com. Granted that that's also a silo, but it's spamfree, secure, and does pretty much everything I'd need from such a service.
# [kevinmarks] a slack instance might make sense
# [kevinmarks] it is meant for small groups to chat in around specific topics, and it works pretty well
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# [tantek] [aaronpk] pretty sure I wrote up the Github url reply patterns in /reply-context#Brainstorming
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# kaushalmodi kevinmarks: Would you be the point of contact to request switching to https for http://microformats.org/ ? :)
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iambismark.net created /User:Iambismark.net (+66) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">[https://iambismark.net/ Ryan Johnson]</span>"" (view diff)
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# tantek chrisaldrich: now that you're back - did you have any more thoughts about relevance of /credential
# tantek ah it's here /credentialing
# Loqi credentialing is the issuance of a verified claim by an issuer about a subject https://indieweb.org/credentialing
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schmarty tantek: /credentialing ?
# schmarty seems related to /2016/NYC2/indorsements but i am not aware of any implementations that followed.
# schmarty which is to say that i am aware of discussions at IndieWebCamp that revolve around similar problems to /credentialing but the tech mentioned on that page did not come up.
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# [kevinmarks] kraushalmodi: tantek does more of the sysadmin work there
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# kaushalmodi Thanks! tantek: Here's the reference: https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-04-04/1522862142018700
# Loqi [kaushalmodi] kevinmarks: Would you be the point of contact to request switching to https for http://microformats.org/ ? :)
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[jgmac1106] [tantek] and [schmarty] I have been involved with credentialing since Mozilla launched the open badges initiative. and I just started the article stub yesterday. I would have switched the verb to a noun but somebody already asked Loqi the question... Disagree there is a lot of nonsense...a lot of noise yes, but not nonsense.
# [jgmac1106] Biggest threat now is both Salesforce and Pearson have filed competing patents around badging and a ton of money flowing around. Degreed got like 17 million or something.
# [jgmac1106] I think the ethos in the open badges community (not the verified credential community overall) shares much of the indieweb ethos
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# [tantek] Passion and valuing independence yes. But not sure about ethos if by that you mean /principles
# [jgmac1106] For research see Dan Hickey's work has probably the most comprehensive work. Also remember this stuff is only ten years old at best, the OBI specification just hit 2.0 and now is trying to play nice with verified credentials
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# [jgmac1106] Credly owns a poorly supported WP plug-in that is OBI compliant, BadgeFactory, ConcentricSky my fav providers
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# [jgmac1106] [tantek] for me..third party...on Wordpress I use the Credly plug-in, for my own site...well there is no RoR issuing platform yet....yeah I didn't realize I was starting a page. I just do what bots tell me
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KartikPrabhu what is credentialing?
# Loqi credentialing is the issuance of a verified claim by an issuer about a subject https://indieweb.org/credentialing
# KartikPrabhu hmmm no ide what credentialing means even after that page
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chrisaldrich I added some bits to the page as the underlying ideas are of potential interest to the /Indieweb_for_Education crowd
# Loqi chrisaldrich: tantek left you a message 1 day ago: the /credentialing pages reads like vapor and has zero connection to the indieweb. there's is some bad history in this space, so unless you have real world indieweb examples, I'd like to delete that page until they exist.
# chrisaldrich those could be potential "welcoming" pages, but tantek is right in that they need clearer examples
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# [jgmac1106] well there is an interesting philosophical debate going on between the two groups on where credibility lies. Verifiable Claims are treating it much like paper based diplomas, where open badge folks want to put emphasis on learner and evidence. It is so fun watching this debate play out in design and commits
# chrisaldrich GWG had an idea related to it all, but I couldn't remember the bit of jargon he used. It was something LinkedIn related that was discussed at an IWC a few years back.
# [jgmac1106] in terms of the badgechain folks...yes they drank the kool-aid. I think it only make sense in high stakes credentialing.
# [jgmac1106] and like I was saying yesterday in many ways an hCard is a type of verified claim. Please feel free to delete the page again I only answered question when I was asked by Loqi
# KartikPrabhu [jgmac1106]: hCard does not need some thrid party verification though
# chrisaldrich For posting on one's own website, writing out essays or putting one's coursework up provides a clear chain that one was working on a project, and these underlying pages could potentially be used to back up a badge.
# chrisaldrich /read posts could also be used for this in some sense as well.
# [jgmac1106] @kartikPrabhu true, so it isn't issued to somebody from me but from me to me. [chrisaldrich] that is what I do for my classes I think most of it should be done by a machine and not me eventually
# chrisaldrich GitHub in some sense creates "badges" of work accomplished via their color gradations in changes and ultimately the final code is a product that can be tested.
# [jgmac1106] this data is four years old: Open Badges Statistics (December 2014):
# [jgmac1106] - 303,900 total badges issued through OBI
# [jgmac1106] - 14,000 total issuers
# [jgmac1106] - 81,715 total Backpacks
# chrisaldrich in some cases an instructor could send webmentions to/create comments on these types of pages as an indicator that some actual work was done...
# [jgmac1106] [chrisaldrich] I was just meeting with folks as we try to use some of GitHub's APIs to play nice with badge issuing platforms...
# chrisaldrich many employers of CS grads don't care as much about the degree/credential now as they do someone having a portfolio of work they can see... this however is tough to replicate in other areas
# [jgmac1106] ...in terms of indieweb tools I think I would take me multiple semesters to get students that up to par. We start on wordpress.com, been trying to get university to buy into DOOs
# [jgmac1106] I havent found any employer that cares about badges yet
# chrisaldrich jgmac1106 and there's a big part of the problem...
# [jgmac1106] yes thinking all learning is about gainful employment is a huge problem.
# [jgmac1106] I think there is a ton of space in Open Source Communities to create credentialed pathways, badges or no badges. Credibility exists in the community.
# KartikPrabhu slowly back away and goes back to physics
# chrisaldrich I think building it in some sort of IndieWeb philosophical way could be interesting, but some of the "experimenting" thus far turns me off of it having some true value at the end...
# [jgmac1106] I still struggle with indieweb tools on my site (as you know from numerous Twitter pings) on my website and I have been doing it for years. One plug in update, one theme change and something could go wrong
# chrisaldrich wants to go back to physics too (or at least some algebraic geometry this morning).
# [jgmac1106] I think the philosophy is already there, beyond building it yourself, the technical challenges of spinning up a server to issue badges too hard for most
# chrisaldrich jgmac1106, I think we're getting to an inflection point such that some of the moving pieces are becoming much easier than they were 3 years ago.
# [jgmac1106] that is true, stuff breaks less often
# [jgmac1106] and more and more theme authors building in webmentions
# chrisaldrich Theme authors really just need to have better microformats support, and the WordPress pieces added after that for webmentions should "just work".
# KartikPrabhu chrisaldrich: coincidentally, I am doing algebraic geometry for a physics problem ;)
# [jgmac1106] [tantek] been fighting fake news since we created a fake internet a decadeto have kids answer the question, "Can Chihuahuas Cure Asthma?" but that is on the learner side. In terms of credentialing as way to fight fake news...not sure...what do you mean
# chrisaldrich I think at the end of the month I'm going to look more seriously into building a multi-site WordPRess install meant to be a DoOO project, but for the general public.
# chrisaldrich KartikPrabhu :)
# chrisaldrich tantek, how much work would it take to add /read /listen to post type discovery?
# [jgmac1106] this is what I thought I should do as well. Instead of having everyone use wordpress.com I should spin up a multipage site. I have been begging Alan to build a DoOO based theme and to charge me for it. The only real LMS theme is from WooCommerce and it is soooo heavy
# chrisaldrich People posting that they've actively read something could be a huge boon to journalism versus the "sharing" (bookmarking) that's happening in the social space now.
# chrisaldrich jgmac1106, I've got a multi user Known site at http://known.boffosocko.com/ and it's quite nice
# chrisaldrich Though generally it's meant more as a sandbox instead of an actual useable platform.
# [jgmac1106] All of my classes ran on Known until this year...I switched to Slack and use RSS bots to pull in student stuff
# chrisaldrich skippy, to be sure one must tell the "truth", but I find anecdotally that few people like to "lie" about what they've read when they're doing it on their own site.
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# [jgmac1106] Open Annotation
# chrisaldrich skippy, there's vouch as a start
# chrisaldrich skippy, there's also the current lack of webmention spam in the wild right now, though perhaps it's as a result of most of us taking more pride of ownership in our sites and not sending it...
# chrisaldrich jgmac1106 could we add those examples to /Indieweb_for_Education or related pages or do you prefer them to remain "private"?
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# chrisaldrich I can certainly see fake content becoming a problem in larger "managed" situations when a company is providing indieweb as a service
# [jgmac1106] they aren't private, best part of Known my students are in charge of their privacy
# chrisaldrich But because webmention is bi-directional, if a news site is displaying reads, bookmarks, reposts, and webmentions, there's an audit-able trail for others to call out news sources for gaming the system too.
# [jgmac1106] so anything that is private you can't see, wish they wer examples of better open pedagogy but these are folks who could not define a link or url when class started
# [jgmac1106] [chrisaldrich] and @skippy the now defunct Open Science team was working on this: https://github.com/mozillascience/PaperBadger
# [jgmac1106] it was for academic pages but I wonder if a version could be used in journalism
# chrisaldrich With private posts, one could do all their newsgathering, notes, back up details in private and then synthesize it into their story. This could then be more easily fact-checked by third parties who might have access to the underlying documents.
# chrisaldrich This is very similar to how many researchers work and similar to how I use my site as a /commonplace_book
# chrisaldrich I think there's a lot of overlap in the edu and journalism community use cases
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# chrisaldrich the research community could do a lot more to better credit researchers for actual work done on papers, particularly in the cases where Principal Investigators are leveraging only their reputations and positions of power to put their names on papers for which they did little, if any, work.
# [jgmac1106] was our goal with PaperBadger
# chrisaldrich I also think that using webmentions on journal articles is a much richer way for handling citations
# chrisaldrich I remember sketching out a diagram when I added Altmetric to https://indieweb.org/backfeed#Altmetric
# [jgmac1106] this is where the DOI number on articles changes everything
# [jgmac1106] Wow [chrisaldrich] didn't know you were working on that. You mind if I share with the ProjectMoodelNet team?
# [jgmac1106] it is a really cool idea
# chrisaldrich Definitely. I need to finish cleaning up some diagrams and writing a very lengthy article about indieweb and academia sometime soon.
# chrisaldrich What are indorsements?
# Loqi indorsements is a portmanteau of "IndieWeb Endorsements," coined by David Shanske at the IndieWebCamp NYC 2016 session of the same name https://indieweb.org/indorsements
# chrisaldrich Thanks GWG! I knew it would come to me sooner or later....
# dansup Oh no, Instagram Platform API is deprecated :(
# chrisaldrich What is "Going full silo?" ^^
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Going full silo" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Going full silo is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# chrisaldrich jgmac1106 good to see you here in chat! I've got to run out for some work, but hope to see you around again in the future!
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# [kevinmarks] Dansup you still have granary
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# gRegorLove Annoyncing new endpoints to send data directly to CA? ;)
# gRegorLove Annoyncing, that's an ironic typo.
# KartikPrabhu what is article
# Loqi An article is a kind of post that typically has more structure than a simple note https://indieweb.org/article
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# [kevinmarks] I had just copied that sentence too
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loqi.me created /Indieweb_for_business (+286) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
# loqi.me edited /Indieweb_for_business (+120) "tantek added "Example: Yoga (suggested donation) event posting: http://tantek.com/2017/197/e1/sunday-yoga-presidio" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Indieweb_for_business (+307) "move all examples under "indieweb examples" with names" (view diff)
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# loqi.me edited /robots (+129) "tantek added "2018-04-03 CJR: [https://www.cjr.org/tow_center/bots-manipulate-trends.php The bots beat: How not to get punked by automation]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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# www.boffosocko.com edited /Indieweb_for_Education (+188) "/* Indieweb Examples */ Greg McVerry Known instances for individual classes" (view diff)