Loqi[nightpool] I really like the idea of webmentions in theory, but I feel like in practice people link to blogs for negative reasons as much as positive ones, and would be really surprised/upset if they found out we were telling the author that they were shitting ...
aaronpkthe way that mastodon has ended up working, there's a big difference between talking about something on your instance vs talking about it on twitter
aaronpki think people are thinking about the old pingback model of "blog posts" more than they are thinking about webmention as enabling the equivalent reply-to-toots function
snarfedthe concern is that webmentions are kind of a form of sea lioning. which is kind of true in this case, if a multi user server starts sending them and unpleasantly surprises its users.
aaronpkso the middle ground is mastodon should always send webmentions to in-reply-to URLs, but there is no UI in mastodon to reply to things outside its own universe
skippyi sympathize with wanting to be able to post a link to something, such that your community can easily click that link, but simultaneously not wanting that link to get a "HEY SKIPPY LINKED THIS OVER HERE!" notification.
aaronpki've seen that on internal corporate wikis. people will include a link explicitly not hyperlinked, *with additional text* saying "don't make this a link, we don't want this to show up in their google analytics"
tantek.comedited /Mastodon (+1560) "/* IndieWeb Support */ Rejected webmention sending, some misunderstandings that could be improved with better explanations of webmention use-cases, how to handle rejections (might be useful in a more common area/page)" (view diff)
@kReEsTaL↩️ J’ai pas mal réfléchi aux webmentions et à ce que ça implique, notamment en matière de confidentialité. Pour moi, cela devrait être une option de confidentialité à disposition de chacun·e, quelle que soit la plateforme (« envoyer des webmentions : oui / non »). (twitter.com/_/status/981417077960527875)
tantek!tell aaronpk please review: https://indieweb.org/Mastodon#Rejected and in particular, consider responding to the Gargron's thoughtful reasons for rejecting along the lines suggested in that section (thanking for the taking the time etc.)
@kReEsTaL↩️ Bref : power to the people, c’est aux plateformes type réseaux sociaux and co. de développer une option pour permettre aux utilisatrices et utilisateurs d’envoyer, ou pas, des webmentions. + Il y a un travail de sensibilisation sur le sujet à fournir. (twitter.com/_/status/981418069477265408)
tantek!tell aaronpk also if Mastodon were to implement WebSub, then presumably individual Mastodon account holders could sign up to use Telegraph to automatically follow the and send webmentions on their behalf?
@nhoizey↩️ Je comprendrais que certains s’émeuvent de voir leurs tweets en Webmentions sur mon blog, d’ailleurs.
Mais difficile de demander à chacun son autorisation, et dommage de se passer de l’intégralité… Choix difficile. (twitter.com/_/status/981418736900104192)
skippywhen using micropub to post a reply-to, how do folks handle the representation of the quoted text? do you mark it up in the editor before submitting? does yoru server handle it for you? micropub just sends a long the URL you're referencing, right?
Loqiaaronpk: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 31 minutes ago: please review: https://indieweb.org/Mastodon#Rejected and in particular, consider responding to the Gargron's thoughtful reasons for rejecting along the lines suggested in that section (thanking for the taking the time etc.)
Loqiaaronpk: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 30 minutes ago: also if Mastodon were to implement WebSub, then presumably individual Mastodon account holders could sign up to use Telegraph to automatically follow the and send webmentions on their behalf?
LoqiA reply context is the display of what a reply post is in reply to, including linking to that original post with in-reply-to markup, showing some amount of that original post like author name, icon, summary / ellipsed content, and datetime published https://indieweb.org/reply-context
skippymany folks in my neighborhood use one or more FB groups to organize things like babysitters, for sale, etc. I'd like to offer a community-run alternative, and am curious about the pros and cons of using different tools. Self-hosted Known, Discourse, or Mastodon are all options. Each offer different things, so there's no perfect solution.
kaushalmodiskippy: My neighborhood uses nextdoor.com. Granted that that's also a silo, but it's spamfree, secure, and does pretty much everything I'd need from such a service.
skippyi tend to agree on Mastodon/Twitter, sknebel; but i'm trying to avoid too many assumptions. it might unlock some unexpected social benefits if we had a more casual, personal space for the neighborhood.
skippysuppose i should more clearly define possible use cases. forum-like would be ideal for "i have..." and "i need...", but be slightly less "interactive" at first.
schmartywhich is to say that i am aware of discussions at IndieWebCamp that revolve around similar problems to /credentialing but the tech mentioned on that page did not come up.
tantekschmarty - there is a lot of nonsense in the credentialing "space" - stark absence of selfdogfooding, that is, lack of so-called credentialing experts / proponents actually *using* the credentialing tech the advocate.
[miklb]skippy I’ve only played around with it, and not in a few years, but I know Boone B Gorges did a lot with it. For a small community, I think it could be a FB replacement.
[jgmac1106][tantek] and [schmarty] I have been involved with credentialing since Mozilla launched the open badges initiative. and I just started the article stub yesterday. I would have switched the verb to a noun but somebody already asked Loqi the question... Disagree there is a lot of nonsense...a lot of noise yes, but not nonsense.
[jgmac1106]Biggest threat now is both Salesforce and Pearson have filed competing patents around badging and a ton of money flowing around. Degreed got like 17 million or something.
[jgmac1106]For research see Dan Hickey's work has probably the most comprehensive work. Also remember this stuff is only ten years old at best, the OBI specification just hit 2.0 and now is trying to play nice with verified credentials
[tantek]But with the SPOF of the Moz “backpack” and more, I’m still looking for evidence that remotely backs up the claims of 100 of thousands of badges or however high it is now
[tantek](That question and the implication, is what motivated my suggestion to delete the page from indieweb wiki until there’s something actually indieweb to point to)
[jgmac1106][tantek] for me..third party...on Wordpress I use the Credly plug-in, for my own site...well there is no RoR issuing platform yet....yeah I didn't realize I was starting a page. I just do what bots tell me
Loqichrisaldrich: tantek left you a message 1 day ago: the /credentialing pages reads like vapor and has zero connection to the indieweb. there's is some bad history in this space, so unless you have real world indieweb examples, I'd like to delete that page until they exist.
[jgmac1106]well there is an interesting philosophical debate going on between the two groups on where credibility lies. Verifiable Claims are treating it much like paper based diplomas, where open badge folks want to put emphasis on learner and evidence. It is so fun watching this debate play out in design and commits
chrisaldrichGWG had an idea related to it all, but I couldn't remember the bit of jargon he used. It was something LinkedIn related that was discussed at an IWC a few years back.
[jgmac1106]and like I was saying yesterday in many ways an hCard is a type of verified claim. Please feel free to delete the page again I only answered question when I was asked by Loqi
chrisaldrichFor posting on one's own website, writing out essays or putting one's coursework up provides a clear chain that one was working on a project, and these underlying pages could potentially be used to back up a badge.
[jgmac1106]@kartikPrabhu true, so it isn't issued to somebody from me but from me to me. [chrisaldrich] that is what I do for my classes I think most of it should be done by a machine and not me eventually
chrisaldrichGitHub in some sense creates "badges" of work accomplished via their color gradations in changes and ultimately the final code is a product that can be tested.
chrisaldrichin some cases an instructor could send webmentions to/create comments on these types of pages as an indicator that some actual work was done...
chrisaldrichmany employers of CS grads don't care as much about the degree/credential now as they do someone having a portfolio of work they can see... this however is tough to replicate in other areas
[jgmac1106]...in terms of indieweb tools I think I would take me multiple semesters to get students that up to par. We start on wordpress.com, been trying to get university to buy into DOOs
[jgmac1106]I think there is a ton of space in Open Source Communities to create credentialed pathways, badges or no badges. Credibility exists in the community.
chrisaldrichI think building it in some sort of IndieWeb philosophical way could be interesting, but some of the "experimenting" thus far turns me off of it having some true value at the end...
[jgmac1106]I still struggle with indieweb tools on my site (as you know from numerous Twitter pings) on my website and I have been doing it for years. One plug in update, one theme change and something could go wrong
[jgmac1106]I think the philosophy is already there, beyond building it yourself, the technical challenges of spinning up a server to issue badges too hard for most
chrisaldrichjgmac1106, I think we're getting to an inflection point such that some of the moving pieces are becoming much easier than they were 3 years ago.
chrisaldrichTheme authors really just need to have better microformats support, and the WordPress pieces added after that for webmentions should "just work".
[jgmac1106][tantek] been fighting fake news since we created a fake internet a decadeto have kids answer the question, "Can Chihuahuas Cure Asthma?" but that is on the learner side. In terms of credentialing as way to fight fake news...not sure...what do you mean
chrisaldrichI think at the end of the month I'm going to look more seriously into building a multi-site WordPRess install meant to be a DoOO project, but for the general public.
[jgmac1106]this is what I thought I should do as well. Instead of having everyone use wordpress.com I should spin up a multipage site. I have been begging Alan to build a DoOO based theme and to charge me for it. The only real LMS theme is from WooCommerce and it is soooo heavy
chrisaldrichPeople posting that they've actively read something could be a huge boon to journalism versus the "sharing" (bookmarking) that's happening in the social space now.
chrisaldrichskippy, to be sure one must tell the "truth", but I find anecdotally that few people like to "lie" about what they've read when they're doing it on their own site.
skippychrisaldrich: sure; but if the goal post moves from "register fake account(s) on silo" to "spin up fake sites to polllute indieweb comm channels" , what defenses can be built in?
chrisaldrichskippy, there's also the current lack of webmention spam in the wild right now, though perhaps it's as a result of most of us taking more pride of ownership in our sites and not sending it...
chrisaldrichBut because webmention is bi-directional, if a news site is displaying reads, bookmarks, reposts, and webmentions, there's an audit-able trail for others to call out news sources for gaming the system too.
[jgmac1106]so anything that is private you can't see, wish they wer examples of better open pedagogy but these are folks who could not define a link or url when class started
chrisaldrichWith private posts, one could do all their newsgathering, notes, back up details in private and then synthesize it into their story. This could then be more easily fact-checked by third parties who might have access to the underlying documents.
chrisaldrichthe research community could do a lot more to better credit researchers for actual work done on papers, particularly in the cases where Principal Investigators are leveraging only their reputations and positions of power to put their names on papers for which they did little, if any, work.
Loqiindorsements is a portmanteau of "IndieWeb Endorsements," coined by David Shanske at the IndieWebCamp NYC 2016 session of the same name https://indieweb.org/indorsements
LoqiIt looks like we don't have a page for "Going full silo" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Going full silo is ____", a sentence describing the term)
snarfedpretty much all programmatic indieweb instagram use switched to scraping a long time ago when instagram effectively closed their api to non-business use
snarfedthe language in that post isn't entirely clear, and some parts conflict, so i need to go try all the API endpoints, with various permissions, and see what it's doing now in practice