#dev 2018-04-16
2018-04-16 UTC
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# 
dansup starting a new project is always fun
# dansup heh
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tantek, KartikPrabhu, renem, Mandrake, AngeloGladding, [cleverdevil], barpthewire, cweiske, Mandrake_, [kevinmarks], red-key, sebsel, iasai_, swentel, jeremycherfas, iasai, filippos1 and [jgmac1106] joined the channel
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# 
Loqi skippy: tantek_ left you a message 2 days, 11 hours ago: re: "*all* elements on an MF2 JSON object are *always* arrays, even single-element items" here: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#details_from_examples though it would be good to also be explicit in the parsing spec. Feel free to file an issue for that.
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# Loqi Progressive Web App (PWA) is a web site that a client can progressively enhance into a standalone app that's comparable with a native app https://indieweb.org/PWA
# 
aaronpk PWA << [https://adactio.com/notes/13743 Progressive web apps in the app switcher on iOS] (adactio.com)
# Loqi ok, I added "[https://adactio.com/notes/13743 Progressive web apps in the app switcher on iOS] (adactio.com)" to the "See Also" section of /Progressive_Web_App https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=46886&oldid=38949
# Loqi [Jeremy Keith] Progressive web apps in the app switcher on iOS. https://adactio.com/images/uploaded/13743/large.png
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# 
[kevinmarks] I think all properties are potentially plural, but de facto analysis is useful.
# Loqi jf2 is a working prototype of a simpler JSON serialization of microformats2 intended to be easier to consume than the standard Microformats JSON representation https://indieweb.org/jf2
# aaronpk this "potentially plural"/"theoretically plural" thing ends up just pushing the problem elsewhere in the stack, like even as far down as to clients rendering data. making every consumer have to decide these things on its own isn't a good plan, which is why this needs to be standardized somewhere
# 
Zegnat I like how mf2 doesn’t really depend on vocabularies at all, and things like h-entry are more or less just documentation of a microformat that has grown in use. So I would definitely like to see things like property plurality to be handled by something like jf2 rather than it getting merged into mf2
# aaronpk for example, at some point, something has to decide what to do with multiple published dates, even if that decision is to ignore all but the first date. since in practice pretty much all examples of this kind of content has one published date i just hardcoded that property as singular in XRay
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# 
kaushalmodi TIL about jf2.. so is it standard to have indieweb adopting sites to support both mf2 and jf2?
# kaushalmodi Or is one approach "winning" over another? i.e. recognized by more endpoints?
# kaushalmodi Ah OK, thanks.. I could have started working on a custom Hugo output format to do that otherwise :P
# kaushalmodi Cool! That's what I needed to know.
# Zegnat And note that “mf2 JSON” isn’t really strictly defined anywhere either. It is just that the microformats2 parsing specification results in a JSON object, so that is usually the *parser output* you will be seeing. Nobody is offering pre-parsed JSON from their websites as a way to support mf2, AFAIK.
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# 
@JeffreyKeefer @pfefferle Can I ask you a question about WebMentions, or is there a better way I can ask for support? I see comments in my WP admin comments so it appears to be connected, but they only appear as a number on the posts themselves. (twitter.com/_/status/985890617778692096)
# [kevinmarks] Granary returns mf2 json as an option
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# Zegnat Hmm, what’s a “JSON parse tree”? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-faq#checking_for_explicit_properties_before_implying
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# 
[eddie] I would say if you do add a fallback to m.b’s webmention endpoint if no endpoint is found for a reply you should be like 95% covered that all of your m.b replies should be good to go. There are a couple wordpress instances that can be tricky. They would see your reply but they might not be able to reply to your reply. But most cases you would no longer have to think about how or if you should reply
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# [kevinmarks] I was thinking of that with mention.tech as a fallback webmention endpoint, but I would need to make it a bit more useful.
# [kevinmarks] Well webmention.herokuapp.com and webmention.io are a bit like that already
# aaronpk Zegnat: right now there are a bunch of wordpress and static sites pulled into micro.blog, and when I see those posts in a reader, only the canonical URL is reported, so when I want to reply, my code checks the site for a webmention endpoint and doesn't find one. when in reality, if I were to send the webmention to micro.blog's endpoint, my reply would be sent and the author would see it
# [kevinmarks] That feels like a case for more than one url in an h-entry
# [kevinmarks] The other half of that is people replying on micro.blog to the copy there, and it not pinging the webmention on the source post.
# [kevinmarks] Oh, odd. They don't seem to make it back to known
# 
jeremycherfas That is correct.
# jeremycherfas If you post from Known and it is picked up by MB, replies on MB come back to Known.
# [kevinmarks] Ah, that may be it
# 
grantcodes With all the mf2 json / jf2 talk, I was thinking of converting my database all to jf2 but the spec doesn't seem quite ready yet
# [kevinmarks] Yes, that's the other issue of forked conversation
# [kevinmarks] This feels a bit like the salmention problem
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# kaushalmodi Being devil's advocate here, but doesn't mf2 json/jf2 look like JSON-LD? Just with different keys?
# grantcodes Yeah it feels like jf2 is done in theory, just some errors in the spec doc
# grantcodes Like I'm pretty sure `photo` should be allowed to be an array but says in
# grantcodes *it shouldnt
# kaushalmodi Sorry, I shouldn't have used "Just" in my last comment.. my view is very much from the surface level, so I am missing out the low level details
# [kevinmarks] No, because json-LD can have multiple equivalent forms, whereas mf2 json is more uniform. Jf2 was an attempt to be closer to the activity Streams 2 json format which is a constrained json-LD.
# grantcodes kaushalmodi: I understand that though, it's a bit of a hurdle that the indieweb seems to use specs/formats that are not currently the most popular options
# [kevinmarks] Mf2 json is expressing properties with nesting, json-LD is expressing a graph of connections, so you can't do a simple equivalence test. You need to treat it as a graph.
# [kevinmarks] Json is the most popular option.
# [kevinmarks] Json-LD is a specialist tool.
# [kevinmarks] Html is an even more popular option.
# grantcodes As someone who doesn't really understand it in depth, it seems like a way of writing machine readable stuctured data, so sort of the same goal as microformats
# [kevinmarks] We could do csv I suppose, that's fairly popular
# grantcodes Zegnat: Well JSON-LD seems to be taking over quite a bit to me, mainly just because google is pushing it for search results.
# aaronpk grantcodes: see this for some trends: https://aaronparecki.com/2016/12/17/8/owning-my-reviews
# grantcodes Yeah sorry, my bad terminology
# grantcodes But for sure you don't see so much about microformats outside of the indieweb world
# grantcodes (not that I'm saying it's a bad thing)
# grantcodes Haha true, but the google world will always be much larger than the indieweb world for the forseeable future
# grantcodes I think the other thing that json-ld/schema/open graph has over microformats is the docs are much more accessible
# grantcodes That is true. I would like to help as well, but not sure I know enough about it to actually write stuff up
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# 
[cleverdevil] All of it makes my head spin. 😄
# grantcodes Well maybe choosing what markup to use is more difficult, but I find it way easier to figure out how to actually implement specific stuff vs microformats
# [cleverdevil] In many ways, I'd just prefer a huge spec filled with vocabularies.
# [cleverdevil] All strictly defined.
# [cleverdevil] But, I know why it isn't that way 🙂
# Zegnat I mean, sure, vocabularies schema.org has for you [cleverdevil]. If you understand their docs. http://schema.org/BlogPosting
# [cleverdevil] This is part of why I've worked on the JSON Schemas for the vocabularies.
# [cleverdevil] So I can have a place that reminds me of all of the attributes that exist in the wild, and what they look like.
# Zegnat I also doubt it is actually easier to implement than microformats. This HTML is not for the faint of heart: http://schema.org/BlogPosting#social-media-2
# grantcodes Zegnat: Personally I don't like the schema html, but json-ld is usually easier for me to add
# grantcodes I like the separation between machine readable data and the human readable html
# kaushalmodi grantcodes++ about separating meta-data from content
# grantcodes Yeah, the other one I run into is when I have a bunch of data that I am fine with making available to be parsed but is of no use to people reading the site. Like geo coordinates, my author data on every post etc
# kaushalmodi at least for Hugo themes, supporting a separate JSON-based metadata file generation is really easy
# kaushalmodi that would even result in faster proliferation of that format
# kaushalmodi Currently, one needs to manually tweak the template files for single pages, list pages, etc. to embed the mf2 classes
# kaushalmodi Zegnat: Yes, the templates for list vs single views are different
# kaushalmodi single view would have h-feed > h-entry > p-summary
# kaushalmodi s/single/list/
# kaushalmodi single view ould have h-entry > e-content,e tc
# kaushalmodi as for the json-based indieweb standard, users will need to just add a line or two to their site config to enable that
# Loqi The sidefile-antipattern is a violation of the DRY principle by the use of secondary files (typically in some one-off XML format) to provide information that is a duplicate of information available in primary files on a website (in HTML), and is an antipattern due to typical DRY violation problems such as out-of-date, missing, corrupted, or outright false data https://indieweb.org/side_file
# kaushalmodi About "out of date", how would it be so? Do people manually create those?
# kaushalmodi Zegnat: I like to have list pages with only summaries. People can click on the permalink to read the full article if interested after reading the summary.
# kaushalmodi So that list page directly translates to h-feed
# kaushalmodi aaronpk: Understood, but with static site generators, I seems to be a non-issue.
# kaushalmodi *that seems
# [eddie] Interestingly this post (http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/broken-plain-sight.htm) points out how microformats can be as bad as a side file
# kaushalmodi The side file's purpose would be to just nest the key/value pairs in the output JSON
# kaushalmodi So that would be highly decoupled from the HTML
# kaushalmodi in the JSON template, it would look like: "title":
{{ .Title }}, "author" : {{ .Author }}, "content": {{ .Content }}, and so on# kaushalmodi haha, it's not so bad in Hugo at least
# kaushalmodi that's the template to create a JSON for my whole site
# [cleverdevil] The web framework that I created years ago works by having controllers return JSON-like native Python data structures, and if the client requests JSON, it sends it, if it requests HTML, then the JSON data structure is passed to a template, which then creates HTML
# [cleverdevil] Best of both worlds 🙂
# kaushalmodi this is what those few lines create: https://scripter.co/search/index.json
# [cleverdevil] thinks side files are totally fine... in spite of the fact that they're a violation of DRY, they're oftentimes a lot easier to generate than HTML.
# kaushalmodi aaronpk: about "using JSON encoder".. yes.. I gave a raw example earlier.. I use the Hugo jsonify function to convert dict/map to json
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# [cleverdevil] They're pretty much the definition of "repeating yourself" 😉
# [cleverdevil] I just don't know if I care in this context...
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# [cleverdevil] One thing I've noticed about microformats is that the notion is you can simply sprinkle some classes onto your existing markup, and viola, you're good to go. But, in practice, you often have to restructure your markup for that to work, or add new markup.
# [cleverdevil] With a side file, you're sort of starting from scratch, and can create precisely what you need to create. Sometimes those side files are even well documented 🙂
# kaushalmodi cleverdevil: I can vouch for that.. had to add few wrapper divs just for mf2
# [kevinmarks] the biggets change I've seen in this realm in the last few years is GraphQL, which has actual adoption unlike previous attempts at JSON minimising
# kaushalmodi Not sure where this discussion is going, but I can see a wider adoption of the side-files approach than people having to hand-edit their html/templates to add mf2
# [kevinmarks] except that "With a side file, you're sort of starting from scratch" is a bit of a trap, and you end up with a side file for each consumer
# [kevinmarks] a side file for every silo
# [kevinmarks] er
# [cleverdevil] That's true.
# [kevinmarks] GraphQL puts a bit more onus on the consumer to say what they are actually using
# [cleverdevil] Yeah, I think the key takeaway for me is: side files aren't all bad. They're also not all good.
# [kevinmarks] rather than "here's an endpoint with deeply nested JSON, spelunk away"
# [kevinmarks] Google seems particularly prone to recreating this every few years as another generation of coders moves through
# [cleverdevil] I'd really like my CMS to just return the data in whatever format the client asks for in the `Accept` header 😛
# [cleverdevil] Same URLs for everything.
# [cleverdevil] (Puny will do this, by the way... it already does for most things).
# [kevinmarks] except that making the machines parse the human readable part is a good constraint on the spammers
# [cleverdevil] [aaronpk] it can.
# [cleverdevil] Its just that no static site CMSes do that *now*.
# [cleverdevil] A simple web server configuration.
# [cleverdevil] I disagree 🙂
# [cleverdevil] You're conflating the files on the disk with how the web server decides to serve them.
# [kevinmarks] we are getting more embedded json, except that is all we getting and it is hydrated by client side js
# [cleverdevil] muses on that for a moment.
# [cleverdevil] I think that's *one* of the points.
# [kevinmarks] even a local file:
# [cleverdevil] Not necessarily the *whole* point 🙂
# [kevinmarks] there are nuances about relative links
# [cleverdevil] I can see your point, [aaronpk].
# [cleverdevil] Either way, I think this is a small burden.
# [kevinmarks] which can still be a good practice - eg tantek's bim archives are still viewable even if his php dies
# [cleverdevil] It doesn't work for static sites, but static sites could simply have a `.html` and a `.mf2json` file for each URL.
# [cleverdevil] (For example)
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# [kevinmarks] "simply"
# [cleverdevil] True.
# kaushalmodi what is conneg?
# Loqi conneg is short for HTTP Content Negotiation, a method by which a browser or other web client can request content of various types from a web server, and depending on what is requested, and what the server supports, it tries to provide the best it can https://indieweb.org/conneg
# [cleverdevil] Hehe
# [kevinmarks] s/simply/complicatedly/
# [cleverdevil] Busted, [kevinmarks]
# kaushalmodi kevinmarks: It really is "simply"
# [kevinmarks] not if the themes have mf in too
# Loqi [tantek]: sebsel left you a message 2 days, 8 hours ago: re your reacji brainstorming: sounds like what I've doing with mine https://seblog.nl/2017/02/20/4/day-36-reacji (I just don't post them that often, unfortunately)
# [kevinmarks] then you do get 2 copies
# [cleverdevil] Its a nice shim that could be done in a plugin.
# [cleverdevil] Rather than depending on WP.org core to solve the actual problem, which I doubt they will anytime soon.
# [cleverdevil] Pragmatic solution, IMO.
# [cleverdevil] In an ideal world, [tantek], but WordPress isn't an ideal world. 🙂
# [kevinmarks] the counterpoint to that is that making things accessible helps everyone, not just visually impaired users
# [cleverdevil] I think the chances of WordPress themes doing "the right thing" in the future is pretty much zero.
# [cleverdevil] I hope I'm wrong, though!
# [cleverdevil] WordPress is dominant, so it'd be great if it were out front leading in this space.
# [cleverdevil] But... they're mostly obsessed with market share and other concerns, not with microformats or IndieWeb.
# [cleverdevil] The good news is that there is a direct path to changing that: convincing Matt Mullenweg.
# [cleverdevil] But, good luck with that 🙂
# [cleverdevil] Indeed.
# [cleverdevil] I don't blame them, really, I understand it.
# [cleverdevil] I'd much prefer a pragmatic, non-ideal solution that doesn't depend on WP.org, than no solution at all.
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# [cleverdevil] (In the meantime, I mean).
# [cleverdevil] The best chance at that may be Micro.blog, IMO.
# 
skippy this is, to me, the most telling sign on WP's motivations: https://wordpress.org/plugins/disable-emojis/ the fact that you need a plugin to disable this feauture that was added to core is sad.
# [cleverdevil] Needs to be a commercial service
# aaronpk well this is a good example of the state of h-feed https://stream.indieweb.org/
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# [kevinmarks] on the accessibility front, this is still worth reading, despite some of the advice being a bit dated, in terms of how to think about this https://web.archive.org/web/20090225235405/http://diveintoaccessibility.org:80/introduction.html
# aaronpk Khurt's is an RSS feed which has HTML in the author element https://islandinthenet.com/feed/
# kaushalmodi to demonstrate the simplicity, this is all it took to implement jf2
# jeremycherfas Which one do you mean, skippy?
# kaushalmodi commit in theme: https://gitlab.com/kaushalmodi/hugo-theme-refined/commit/1de793dc31e8878b86ed29482f886d2c809f8925 (2 lines, top portion is comment)
# kaushalmodi commit in hugo site config: https://gitlab.com/kaushalmodi/kaushalmodi.gitlab.io/commit/8c2efa6e3bc086f5b7cec13f413c5d45048f0d67
# [kevinmarks] [kaushal_modi] can you make your json have utf8 rather than \u003f stuff in?
# kaushalmodi Now I have the jf2feed.json file for all the single pages
# jeremycherfas The Change for a time post got picked up from my /posts page, not sure why the h-card doesn't come though for that.
# [kevinmarks] 'cos that is nassty json
# kaushalmodi kevinmarks: hmm, need to figure that out..
# jeremycherfas https://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jeremycherfas.net%2Fblog%2Fchange-for-a-time shows my author. Need to check the other one.
# aaronpk it's looking at https://www.jeremycherfas.net/blog
# jeremycherfas But inside h-entry
# kaushalmodi skippy: yes, you can check that on my home page too
# kaushalmodi kevinmarks: May be that code-block heavy page uncovers a bug in Hugo
# kaushalmodi here's a more regular page: http://www.unmung.com/jsontoxoxo?url=https://scripter.co/fragmentions/jf2feed.json
# kaushalmodi interesting.. Loqi reports the reply-to Permalink
# jeremycherfas There is an h-card on https://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jeremycherfas.net%2F
# jeremycherfas I'm thoroughly lost now
# [kevinmarks] unmung can confuse escaped html with generated html, true
# aaronpk jeremycherfas: it's because https://www.jeremycherfas.net/blog doesn't have the full h-card, and Aperture doesn't actually go follow the link and fetch your home page
# jeremycherfas I actually gave up on indiewebify because it kept telling me to things that I did not in fact need to do.
# jeremycherfas Thanks for the explanation, sknebel. But aaronpk is this something that is likely to change in Aperture?
# jeremycherfas OK. NP.
# kaushalmodi tantek: I reported one.. indiewebifyme doesn't recognized the u-author in h-entry, but pin13 does: https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues/72
# jeremycherfas I could indeed tantek, but it looks like the repo has not received a lot of love lately.
# kaushalmodi kevinmarks: Looking at the unmung output for the plantuml link you posted earlier, I don't see what's wrong..
# kaushalmodi Is it the svg text representation showing up in "text".. that page is mainly svg files
# jeremycherfas OK.
# [kevinmarks] do I need to login to ownyourgram with the full profile url of my known site?
# [kevinmarks] oh yes
# [kevinmarks] what is linkrot?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "linkrot" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "linkrot is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [kevinmarks] o_O
# [kevinmarks] "eventually every URL ends up as a porn site" - Tim Berners-Lee
# [kevinmarks] this was failing at the redirect stage
# 
tantek linkrot is /site-death
# [kevinmarks] that did help http://known.kevinmarks.com/profile/kevinmarks worked when http://known.kevinmarks.com didn't
# aaronpk is it in the HTML of https://miklb.com/ though?
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# kaushalmodi aaronpk, kevinmarks: Just following up on the jf2 discussion.. is this jf2 feed getting parsed correctly? Here's an example: https://scripter.co/fragmentions/jf2feed.json, but any single post page on my site has that jf2 format json.
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# [kaushal_modi] Yes, I just implemented an enter type jf2 for a quick demo
# [kaushal_modi] I'll fix the summary
# [kaushal_modi] Thanks
# [kaushal_modi] *entry
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# aaronpk yeah, it's pretty minimal https://github.com/aaronpk/Watchtower
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# aaronpk right now you pass the /authorship algorithm, but aperture doesn't follow it exactly
# 
tantek.com edited /plurality (-223) "Conway's law nothing to do with plurality, cited podcast incorrectly overgeneralizes Conway's law to being about self-design. Undo revision 46912 by [[Special:Contributions/Www.boffosocko.com|Www.boffosocko.com]] ([[User talk:Www.boffosocko.com|talk]])" (view diff)
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# [kevinmarks] could you do a quick check for possible emoji first?
# [kevinmarks] like "is this short but has astral plane chars" ?
# aaronpk tantek: mine takes a different approach, but might also be too much for you https://github.com/aaronpk/emoji-detector-php
# [kevinmarks] though welsh flags might not trigger it
# [kevinmarks] or combined families
# aaronpk which does a few checks to abort early in some easy cases https://github.com/aaronpk/emoji-detector-php/blob/master/src/Emoji.php#L66
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# [kevinmarks] try ":flag-wales:".length
# [kevinmarks] 14 in JS
# tantek.com edited /antipatterns (+430) "/* design for silos or enterprise */ enterprise design antipatterns, a place for chrisaldrich's Conway's law links" (view diff)
# [kevinmarks] mobile got it first
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# [eddie] Slack for iOS Upload https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T03QR2B2T-FA771G2P3/image_uploaded_from_ios.png?pub_secret=6a91bdd9fe&name=Image uploaded from iOS.png
# [eddie] In relation to: https://aaronparecki.com/2018/04/16/3/
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# 
pstuifzand the account thing on Android was quite a bit of work
# pstuifzand the micropub-android repo has a "complete" implementation
# pstuifzand it's not really "multi-" though
# pstuifzand it will always pick the first one
# pstuifzand :)
# pstuifzand I guess the hardest part was keeping all the callbacks straight
# pstuifzand swentel: I'm already amazed that you kept the code as clean as you did.
# pstuifzand All the callbacks, intents and activities completely took over the code
# pstuifzand what part ?
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# pstuifzand I see, the onResponse method in the timeline, is quite a bit of that
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# [kevinmarks] @pstuifzand can I get on the android seed list please?
# pstuifzand [kevinmarks], sure I have send you an email many weeks ago, did you not receive it?
# pstuifzand I will find the links perhaps it already works
# pstuifzand that's the optin url for people that are added to the alpha testers list
# pstuifzand swentel, I found the gson library for JSON, maybe that will help cleanup the timeline
# pstuifzand you can specify classes, and the library will serialize/deserialize the JSON accordingly
# [kevinmarks] Oh, I have forgotten my known password because chrome always autocompletea it
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# 
@chrisdmacrae ↩️ Do you have any resources for this @miklb? I really want to learn about webmentions in relation to platforms like Twitter. (twitter.com/_/status/985988215952871429)
# 
loqi.me created /social_network (+25) "prompted by tantek and redirect added by tantek" (view diff)
# 
@miklb ↩️ @chrisdmacrae @zachleat @robweychert I would start with https://indieweb.org/Webmention (twitter.com/_/status/985988800932392961)
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# 
@perlnews PrePAN: Web::Mention - An implementation of the Webmention protocol, as defined by the W3C and the IndieWeb community. (jmacdotorg@github) - http://prepan.org/module/nYhnPU5b9c1 (twitter.com/_/status/985990395686371328)
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# 
@daniellecrobins Deadline approaching! ✨ @FordFoundation - @mozilla Fellowship✨ with @codeforsociety to work on #p2p web with @dat_project DUE FRIDAY! Get writing y'all! https://twitter.com/auremoser/status/984081956018315264 (twitter.com/_/status/985934793094254594)
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# aaronpk you can use a database if you want instaeed https://laravel.com/docs/5.6/queues#driver-prerequisites
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# 
GWG That is /wp-json/indieauth/1.0/auth
# skippy i get a query string on /wp-json/indieauth, as evidenced above.
# aaronpk mine was like /?rest_route=indieauth....
# skippy oh, i was wrong. the /wp-json/indieauth/ link redirects to wp-login.php?blahblahblah
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# dansup Thoughts on a federated instagram?
# dansup Using ActivityPub ofc
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