#dev 2018-04-30

2018-04-30 UTC
eli_oat, EmreSokullu, snarfed, renem, KartikPrabhu, [miklb], AngeloGladding and maingo joined the channel
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wagle
any piwigo users in the house. I'm find tools to import to piwigo but not export. is "export" the wrong keyword?
barpthewire, cweiske and jjuran joined the channel
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Zegnat
wagle, I would expect export to be the right word for getting stuff out
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Zegnat
It is interesting how basically all search results I get for “piwigo” and “export” are about tools that help you take your photos from other software *into* piwigo
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Zegnat
What is piwigo?
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Loqi
Piwigo is open source photo gallery software for the web written in PHP https://indieweb.org/piwigo
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Zegnat
wagle, are you selfhosting Piwigo? Isn’t all the data already under your control then? What sort of “export” are you looking to create?
KartikPrabhu, barpthewire, swentel, [kevinmarks], jeremycherfas, EmreSokullu and [jgmac1106] joined the channel
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@girlziplocked
Can someone good at the internet bring back google reader but only for @DemSocialists
(twtr.io/1dJR9ttFS4o)
Loqi and kaushalmodi joined the channel
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kaushalmodi
Good morning all!
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kaushalmodi
Today I stumbled across an interesting brid.gy behavior.. can someone comment if that's expected?
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kaushalmodi
I got a mention tweet https://twitter.com/jxxf/status/990787587278295040. That tweet does not reference my domain scripter.co.. and yet it showed up as Webmention for https://scripter.co.
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@jxxf
Finding some really interesting static-site pipelines. My favorite so far is @kaushalmodi's: https://gitlab.com/kaushalmodi/kaushalmodi.gitlab.io/blob/master/build.sh I wish there was a more general effort to making pipelines agnostic of what they were running against.
(twtr.io/1dJtbXsCqqf)
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sknebel
yes, because its mentioning you, and you are https://scripter.co
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kaushalmodi
hmm, OK I understood that much.. :) But there's a second part.
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kaushalmodi
When I retweeted that tweet, the WM got exactly duplicated!
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kaushalmodi
I got 2 "mentions"
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kaushalmodi
You can see here what I mean: https://scripter.co/#webmentions
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kaushalmodi
To brid.gy the retweet looks the exact same as the first mention (same author, etc.)
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kaushalmodi
Used the wrong terms there.. so the activity types for the original tweet and my retweet both show up as "link".
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kaushalmodi
The activity type of the retweet should be "repost", right?
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sknebel
that seems like a bug, yes. it probably shouldn't report the retweet, since you are the author of it
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[snarfed]
[kaushal_modi] you didn't syndicate the original, so the retweet isn't a repost of a post of yours@@a
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[snarfed]
or, it shouldn't backfeed retweets of mentions, at least
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kaushalmodi
yeah, the second behavior would be expected especially if the mention is of the retweeter
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kaushalmodi
snarfed: The original was just an arbitrary mention of me, so I don't know how to syndicate that.
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[snarfed]
@sknebel most people actually do want their own tweets/qcomments backfed, in general
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[snarfed]
[kaushal_modi] you don't, it's not yours to syndicate :P
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kaushalmodi
Hmm, so is there any Twitter meta data that distinguishes between that original tweet with my mention and my retweet?
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[snarfed]
[kaushal_modi] yes, easy to distinguish qRTs
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[snarfed]
it's like if someone wrote a post on their site that linked to your site, and sent a webmention
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sknebel
[snarfed]: but the two webmentions kaushalmodi got only differ in the twitter-URL, the bridgy markup doesn't show anything about it being a retweet
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sknebel
or is the second one not for the RT, but some weird duplicate?
snarfed, wiobyrne, [unoabraham], EmreSokullu, [snarfed], singpolyma and renem joined the channel
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[snarfed]
nah, it's for the RT. you may be able to make it render differently if you replace post in the URL with repost
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sknebel
that makes it 404. And I don't get what the value of the second WM is then, if the receiver can't tell that it's a retweet?
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kaushalmodi
I am confused.. It's bridgy that sets post vs repost in the URL, right.. I am just receiving WM's from webmention.io which sets the activity type as "link" for both: original and retweet (in this particular case)
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wagle
Zegnat: just want to be able to freely move from one tech to another, and seeing how much of that I can do
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Loqi
[[snarfed]] or, it shouldn't backfeed retweets of mentions, at least
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wagle
Zegnat: ideally, the album lasts 50 years.. though I expecct its curators to die off and let it bitrot after 5-10 or so
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Zegnat
Interesting, wagle. I’d say a lot of people here are fans of pulling things out of databases and putting it in plain text files for long term storage of data.
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wagle
Zegnat: that too
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Zegnat
But yeah, I am not seeing a lot of export options for Piwigo. Maybe if you look for other open-source photo tools that they will have made “import from Piwigo” tools. Otherwise it looks pretty locked up
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wagle
is currently curating four (4) photos to see what info he shou;d collect while scanning in a few hundred
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wagle
well crud
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wagle
we'll see how I feel in a few hours
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Zegnat
Or, well, locked-up with a bit of a footnote. If you are selfhosting the Piwigo, you would have direct access to the database etc.
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skippy
i wish twitter had a sandbox API endpoint I could test my codre against. dev in prod is no bueno.
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Zegnat
schmarty, jmac, [jgmac1106]: I use u-sound linked to an audio file of my first name.
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Zegnat
the sound property was taken from the old hCard, which took it from VCard
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Zegnat
I should probably document that on the mf wiki
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schmarty
zegnat++ very nice! docs on the mf wiki and maybe /homepage or /h-card could be great.
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Loqi
zegnat has 57 karma in this channel (202 overall)
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Zegnat
The phonetics that are displayed below my name are never carried over to mf2. Maybe they should?
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Loqi
Martijn van der Ven
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jmac
neat
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schmarty
i notice that your text pronunciation guide is not marked as an mf2 property
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Zegnat
Note that I am in the annoying position of not being able to pronounce my own name very well, else I would have recorded a clip of my entire name.
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Zegnat
Yeah, I am not sure if it makes sense to do that schmarty, because of the phonetic symbols, it doesn’t seem very useful?
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wagle
google is NOT cooperating.. "from" != "to"
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jmac
I love the idea of an ad-hoc phonetic-pronounciation property tag, but it opens the door to how to render it
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jmac
I'd wanna use "baby talk" like (for my name) "MAC-in-tosh" but I realize that also assumed English reading / pronounciation.
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jmac
And i see you use IPA, Zegnat, but the only people who can read & grok IPA symbols are nerds. (Begging your pardon.)
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Zegnat
I do not disagree jmac. I consulted with sebsel (who studied Dutch) to get the correct glyphs.
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jmac
By "nerds" I mean "people smarter and more sophisticated than myself" of course
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aaronpk
At one point I could read IPA
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Zegnat
The problem with “baby talk” is that it isn’t helpful on foreign pronunciation at all.
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aaronpk
Back when I was studying linguistics :-)
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Zegnat
/MAR-tajn/ ? Something like that? Not sure if that will actually help people pronounce my name
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schmarty
i definitely cannot read IPA and i think that is super interesting.
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schmarty
because in the sense that tons of human effort to get a universal textual representation of mouth sounds, it feels like the "right way to do it"
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jmac
<span class="p-phonetic-name-babytalk-en">lol</span>
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Zegnat
Better to link to sound. And wikipedia/wiktionary actually has a lot of pronounciations of names stored.
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aaronpk
I think an audio file is the best option, since it removes the need to find common written symbols to represent different sounds from different languages
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wagle
Zegnat: sure is looking like a trap
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schmarty
but in the sense that the indieweb is about making things usable by humans, i can't get much out of IPA representations
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Zegnat
I think people have told me to add a symbol to the page so people realise they can click it for the audio representation
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schmarty
i prefer audio files, for sure, because i can practice to match them.
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jmac
Yeah, linking to a sound clip sounds better the more I think of it. It's the internet, 2018, all that.
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aaronpk
Cross language "baby talk" spelling doesn't work very well either cause there are many sounds in other languages that don't exist in English and can't be spelled with English words
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schmarty
wikipedia/wiktionary are good places to check. my previous strategies have involved trying to find videos where a person is mentioned or says their name, or appearances on podcasts.
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Zegnat
The only problem with that is people who cannot pronounce their own names in their own language very well, haha
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jmac
remembers that early (and current?) Linux distros often included a clip of Linux pronouncing his name, and the operating system's
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jmac
(er, Linus)
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aaronpk
Zegnat: in that case I would say the more important thing is that people are pronouncing your name the way you want them to whether or not it's "technically correct"
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schmarty
my current strategy is usually to check their site's about info to figure out where they live (or if they say where they are "from"), or the primary non-english language that they post in on their site
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schmarty
then i'll put their name into google translate and set it to the "nearest" language that google translate will speak aloud.
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schmarty
and i'll practice on that.
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schmarty
which is how i butchered klex's name 😩
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Zegnat
aaronpk, problem comes from not being able to say that. I wonder for instance how Jonathan Ross pronounces his own surname. And if that becomes “Woss”, does he actually want people to call him that?
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wagle
/nick WAYgull
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singpolyma
jmac: "nerds" and "people from languages who use IPA as their alphabet"
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Zegnat
I too sometimes struggle with Rs, and hearing people try to parrot the way I pronounce my own given name, with them trying to mimic my R, just sounds wrong.
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schmarty
jmac: that clip wasn't just included! it was the test sound for alsa configuration, if i remember correctly. :}
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jmac
singpolyma: I duly slow my Anglocentric roll.
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schmarty
pronunciation audio files as a service
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jmac
schmarty: Excellent. You can tell that I got my friends to set up sound in Linux because I was hopeless at it.
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[jgmac1106]
This will happen often with different languages, especially if moving from a phonetic based reading language to one that isn't but even then there are simply some phonemes (a human invention) that are used in Hindi and English vice versa that our mouths are not trained to make
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skippy
"My name in Linus Torvalds, and I pronounce Linux Linux."
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Zegnat
Even non-native English speakers tend towards anglocentric views on the internet, in my experience, jmac :)
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[jgmac1106]
An English only web will never truly be an open web
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skippy
Esperanto for everyone1
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[kevinmarks]
IPA is better than pseudo-English, but you can show both.
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[jgmac1106]
and then I can certify everyone to teach pre school
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jmac
I am warming to the idea of showing IPA and "dictionary pronounciation" (in whatever language) and so on, but encouraging audio clips as canon.
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jmac
Especially in these benighted times when so many can't read IPA offhand
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[kevinmarks]
each dictionary has their own arbitrary transcription
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Loqi
h-card
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[snarfed]
@skippy many of us use separate test silo accounts for that reason
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Zegnat
h-card << [https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-04-30#t1525100824911600 Discussion about adding pronunciation guides to h-card.]
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jmac
And working all these together as a little IPA teaching-nudge, hmm? e.g. <p class="p-phonetic-name"><a href="http://example.com/me-pronouncing-my-name.mp3" class="p-ipa u-sound">[My name in IPA characters]</a></p> (Just spitballing here)
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Loqi
[Zegnat] schmarty, jmac, [jgmac1106]: I use u-sound linked to an audio file of my first name.
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Loqi
ok, I added "[https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-04-30#t1525100824911600 Discussion about adding pronunciation guides to h-card.]" to the "See Also" section of /h-card https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=47278&oldid=45223
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Zegnat
The outer p-phonetic-name is going to be the same as the inner p-ipa in that example, jmac
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Zegnat
p-* says “take the plain text value of this element”. Which is the same for the P and A.
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jmac
OK. I'm still learning this stuff. :)
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jmac
But the gist is the same i hope
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Zegnat
Yes, I just wanted to point that out :)
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Zegnat
p-ipa might be a good idea. Would set it aside from other pronunciation guides, and as a mf2 consumer you know you only have to look in there if you are able to use IPA in the first place
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jmac
Would it be kosher to make an ad-hoc rule of "And if it contains a u-sound URL, understand that as a spoken sound clip of the IPA text content" ?
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Zegnat
Oh. Hmmm.
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schmarty
jmac: i think u-sound, being derived from hCard's "sound" and vCard's "sound" before that, would be understood to be a spoken sound clip of the person or organization or place's name
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jmac
I mean, maybe there is already an MF2 proposed standard for "Here is a link to an audio version of this text" that's re-usable here, I don't know
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Zegnat
You could document that. But the raw microformats aren’t going to show a relationship between properties. All properties are descriptors of the upper object. So all mf2 shows is that `sound` and `ipa` are descriptors of `h-card`.
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jmac
schmarty: That sounds apt, then
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jmac
heh heh "sounds", good one jmac
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Zegnat
You’d need something like ... h-text? With a p-written and u-spoken? Which may be interesting, or overly convoluted.
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schmarty
jmac: oh, good question. i don't believe there is, but i'd be interested in using it to link podcast episodes to their transcriptions, or link the this week in the indieweb newsletters with their audio editions.
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jmac
Zegnat: But if a u-sound in an h-card is already understood to mean "This is the 'name' of this h-card read out loud", then that's all we need; the fact that you can represent that as a hyperlink from IPA text is a happy accident.
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schmarty
zegnat: did you mean to write "not (yet) part of the official h-review spec" on the mf2 wiki regarding u-sound? seems like that should be h-card, but i get easily confused about the mf2 wiki content. ;}
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Zegnat
Yes, on an h-card, I would say it always means the spoken name
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Zegnat
Woops
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Zegnat
I copied that sentence over from h-review (where I copied it over from h-entry) so the same text is use everywhere
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Zegnat
busted
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Zegnat
Fixed it
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[kevinmarks]
I'd say avoid nesting properties - we flattened h-card to make it easier. If you want pronunciations of other things (organisatiosn etc) then embed an h-card for them wiht it's own u-sound
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Zegnat
I agree with [kevinmarks]
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jmac
no prob
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Zegnat
But sound property on an h-entry? Would that be “entire entry read”? Because I could see that being used for schmarty’s podcast transcript case
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schmarty
likewise. i am a big fan of u-sound.
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schmarty
(being part of the h-card)
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[kevinmarks]
yes, for an h-entry I would assume audio version. You could use rel="alternate" for it too
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[kevinmarks]
If we left out u-sound it was because we didn't see examples, so adding examples is the right way to go
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Zegnat
hmm, is rel="alternate" scoped like rel="author"?
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schmarty
aaronpk: any interest in adding an h-card to okta.com with a u-sound property linking to an audio file of the pronunciation? ;}
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Zegnat
Looks like rel="alternate" is page scoped. So can only use that for the audio version links on permalink pages and not within feeds. Am I right in that reading of the HTML spec, [kevinmarks]?
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jeremycherfas
Can I just link to the first 10 seconds of every one of my podcasts?
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[kevinmarks]
why would you do that?
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[kevinmarks]
rel+"alternate" is page scoped, yes
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[kevinmarks]
rel-enclosure is also appropriate for podcasts
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Zegnat
The question is what people will understand the sound property to be ... if they expect to find the full post in audio format, 10 seconds may be a let down. More a [.u-summary .u-sound] then, maybe?
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[kevinmarks]
that's still not good
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[kevinmarks]
Why would you have a 10 second audio summary?
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[kevinmarks]
I can kind of see having a trail, like Leo does, but that's more of a hook to keep you listening past the opening ads I think/
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jeremycherfas
A lame joke; I introduce myslef by saying my own name, the way I pronounce it, every time.
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wagle
Zegnat: it says explicit;y that there isi no vendor lockin, despite still NOT saying how exactly to export everything
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[kevinmarks]
ah, gotcha
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wagle
Zegnat: i'm half amused
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Zegnat
wagle, probably because you are free to take all your data. As all the data is indeed stored by you on hosting you pay for. They just aren’t telling you exactly you can access that data ;)
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wagle
i was fooled by the "free software" label
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jmac
On the topic of hyperlinked and h-carded IPA, I put an example on http://jmac.org.
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Loqi
Jason McIntosh
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jmac
In the first graf under the header
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Zegnat
I noticed when I was looking up your URL
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Zegnat
You are credited for coining the ipa property in the source of https://vanderven.se/martijn/ now ;)
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Loqi
Martijn van der Ven
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Zegnat
(and my h-card grows ever stronger.)
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jmac
Your IPA looks like your name, mine looks like horrible shoggoth-speak. I'm trusting that my language-nerd friends in another chatroom aren't playing a joke on me.
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Zegnat
Looks about right, from what I remember of IPA
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jmac
Every time someone actually pronounces /ˈdʒeɪsən ˈmækɪnˌtɒʃ/ another sun winks out and cthulhu stirs in his slumber. sorry everyone
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skippy
iA! iA!
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Zegnat
jmac, your contact link is dead?
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wagle
found a backup script written in german.. heh
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Zegnat
several people here might be able to translate that for you ;)
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jmac
Zegnat: zounds!
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jmac
What the... I have no idea how that happened, nice catch
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sknebel
"from what I remember of IPA" is a good phrase, yes. one of those things they teached us in school that I just don't need enough
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wagle
actually more like dutch, I think
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wagle
translate.google.com seems to handle it
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Zegnat
That doesn’t change the translatability, wagle ;)
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snarfed
!tell kaushalmodi,sknebel here's the bridgy url for that RT that includes u-repost-of. https://brid.gy/repost/twitter/kaushalmodi/990787587278295040/990803136448253952 (and yes, bridgy still shouldn't backfeed RTs of mentions. this is just in case you were curious.)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
[Kaushal] Finding some really interesting static-site pipelines. My favorite so far is @kaushalmodi's: gitlab.com/kaushalmodi/ka… I wish there was a mor
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sknebel
snarfed: ah, I overlooked that both IDs are needed
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Zegnat
jmac, hmm, can I convince you to also include pronouns in the h-card. Now that pronunciation of your name has been solved? 😇
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wagle
is IPA an encryption? (/me runs)
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jeremycherfas
It is really easy to reverse engineer given a familiar corpus.
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jeremycherfas
Typing the stuff is the difficult part.
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jmac
Zegnat: A valid question, and for the time being I would rather stay respectfully mum on this topic! (Which is an entirely separate crate of potatoes I intend to write up later.)
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Zegnat
jmac, ha, noted. If you do a write up about pronouns “later”, here are my notes on marking them up: https://wiki.zegnat.net/microformats/pronoun
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jmac
v good
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kaushalmodi
!tell snarfed Thanks! Does it mean it was something that you just fixed?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
kaushalmodi: snarfed left you a message 24 minutes ago: here's the bridgy url for that RT that includes u-repost-of. https://brid.gy/repost/twitter/kaushalmodi/990787587278295040/990803136448253952 (and yes, bridgy still shouldn't backfeed RTs of mentions. this is just in case you were curious.)
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kaushalmodi
Here's the bridgy URL that last got generated for that retweet: https://brid-gy.appspot.com/post/twitter/kaushalmodi/990803136448253952
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Loqi
[John Feminella ⌬] Finding some really interesting static-site pipelines. My favorite so far is @kaushalmodi's: gitlab.com/kaushalmodi/ka… I wish there was a more general effort to making pipelines agnostic of what they were running against.
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wagle
mygawditsfulloftables!
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snarfed
kaushalmodi: no, i haven't changed any code. bridgy just renders a retweet to html a bit differently depending on whether you explicitly tell it it's a retweet or not
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Loqi
snarfed: kaushalmodi left you a message 1 minute ago: Thanks! Does it mean it was something that you just fixed?
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snarfed
(granary's a bit better)
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[kevinmarks]
iᴾA! iᴾA!
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kaushalmodi
snarfed: I didn't yet understand the root cause of the problem..
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kaushalmodi
I shouldn't retweet the tweets that contain my mentions?
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snarfed
kaushalmodi: no, bridgy shouldn't backfeed you retweets of mentions
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snarfed
it's arguably just a bug
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kaushalmodi
OK. I will just manually delete the WM for now from wm.io. Should I open an issue for this on bridgy?
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snarfed
sure, if you want!
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snarfed
[kevinmarks]++ hugs
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Loqi
kevinmarks has 10 karma in this channel (307 overall)
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[kevinmarks]
that thing where none of your folders have spaces in because python install tools fail unpredictably when they do, and every python programmer has already done this so it never gets fixed…
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www.svenknebel.de
edited /Medium (+28) "move custo mdomain link to existing criticism section about it"
(view diff)
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[cleverdevil]
LOL, that XKCD is so on point.
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[cleverdevil]
Python packaging is actually at a better place than its ever been in many respects, but its still a pain in the ass due to other issues.
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[cleverdevil]
(Much of it, for me, actually has to do with Homebrew...)
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tantek
packaging in general is often a PITA
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tantek
I'm a big believer in single-file libraries and single-file software
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tantek
with forward/backward compat
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[cleverdevil]
Packaging problems are one of the primary reasons that containerization and serverless are popular these days.
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[cleverdevil]
Docker is pretty much "works on my machine as a service."
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tantek
except I remember Docker containers having problems with enough network access to make Webmention work
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[cleverdevil]
Yeah, they're definitely not a silver bullet.
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[cleverdevil]
But, they're certainly marked as one 🙂
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tantek
so many things are
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tantek
I feel like that's what's driven the crazy complexity of modern cargo-cult JS "environments"
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tantek
Vouch << 2018-04-27 Fast Company: [https://www.fastcompany.com/40565050/say-goodbye-to-the-information-age-its-all-about-reputation-now Say Goodbye To The Information Age: It’s All About Reputation Now]
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Loqi
ok, I added "2018-04-27 Fast Company: [https://www.fastcompany.com/40565050/say-goodbye-to-the-information-age-its-all-about-reputation-now Say Goodbye To The Information Age: It’s All About Reputation Now]" to the "See Also" section of /Vouch https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=47286&oldid=45118
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bdesham
Question about the URL returned when you upload a file to a Micropub media endpoint. Is the intention that this be a *resolvable* URL?
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bdesham
Or could I return something like urn:uuid:f81d4fae-7dec-11d0-a765-00a0c91e6bf6 and only "promote" the file to a "real" URL once a post was created that actually referenced the file?
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grantcodes
bdesham: it's meant to return the url
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grantcodes
but I don't suppose the file needs to be publicly accessible at that url
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Zegnat
Good question. From spec as written, any valid URL pointing “to the file” should be a valid response. Though I think the intent was for it to be resolvable.
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bdesham
Yeah, I figured that was the case. It seems preferable to me, though, to make the uploaded file publicly-accessible only when the relevant post is published, instead of making it accessible immediately and then expiring it at some point in the future
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aaronpk
advantage of it being accessible immediately: see the quill UI for adding a photo to a post. it shows the post as a preview before the note is created
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Zegnat
I guess some editors may have issue with it if they try to display an uploaded image inline? Does the Quill article editor not do something like that?
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bdesham
aaronpk: I haven't uploaded a photo with Quill yet (although I have used it for several text posts--thank you very much for making it!). Does Quill upload the file and then download it again to create the preview?
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aaronpk
it uploads the file then renders an <img> tag with that URL
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Zegnat
(I didn’t see aaronpk’s chat, my IRC client got out of sync :( Going to be quiet.)
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singpolyma
the media endpoint is still optional, right? Because it wouldn't work for my use case at all :P
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aaronpk
what use case?
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aaronpk
and yes the fallback is that clients will upload the file to the micropub as a multipart request
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singpolyma
I put media in the same folder as the post. so it can't exist anywhere until the whole post exists
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aaronpk
i do that as well
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aaronpk
i treat my media endpoint as a temporary location, and my site moves the file to the post's folder after it's created
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singpolyma
I guess I could do that, but a multipart request sounds easier to handle
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bdesham
I was thinking that since the URL returned from the media endpoint is (potentially) temporary anyway, returning a non-resolvable URI wouldn't be too bad. But it sounds like that would break some clients
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loqi.me
edited /urn (+41) "bear added "Uniform Resource Name" to "See Also""
(view diff)
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bear.im
edited /urn (+121)
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KartikPrabhu
what is urn?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: bear is fixing it
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yeah I just wanted to see what it is
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bear
what is a urn
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Loqi
urn is a Uniform Resource Name that comes from the original design of Internet resources but is often now a source of dead links https://indieweb.org/urn
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bear
with a follow up paragraph about how IndieWeb should use URLs
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tantek
pretty sure it's been obsoleted in the URL spec also
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KartikPrabhu
yeah urn looked complicated
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bear
i'm tracing the URL RFCs now to get the last one and to double check
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tantek
yes, URI and IRI are abandoned in the URL spec, thus eliminating any need for URN
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bear
well, URN and URL are not abandonded per the RFC
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tantek.com
edited /urn (+232) "include prior dfn, abbr for URN, note relation to URI, abandoned by URL spec, now dead links"
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tantek
what is an URN
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Loqi
An urn is used to store the ashes of cremated people, however URN is an abbreviation for Uniform Resource Name, specified as a kind of URI, yet later abandoned by the URL Standard, and historically often a source of dead links, ironically aligned with the original common noun.</span> https://indieweb.org/urn
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bear
that's not accurate tantek
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tantek
which part?
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tantek.com
edited /urn (+6) "/dfn"
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singpolyma
How can a urn be a "dead link"? Most of them are stuff like urn:isbn:... ISBNs don't expire or anything, and in terms of resolution are never "live links" to begin with
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bear
URN is not abandoned - it's use is listed as not being suggested for use in favour of URI
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aaronpk
"unresolvable link" is more accurate
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bear
and it's only unresolvable by browsers normally
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tantek
singpolyma not true - URN advocates claim ways of binding resolvers to various urn: subschema
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bear
RFC 3986 is where URI is considered to be the "proper" term as that folds in both URLs and URNs
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tantek
such ways which themselves are in practice far more fragile than how browsers resolve URLs
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tantek
thus "dead links" is a reasonable lay person summary
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singpolyma
I wasn't aware anyone had ever tried to do resolution for urn subschema, so I stand corrected :)
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tantek
bear, URN was abandoned by the URL Standard as it is not even mentioned in it
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tantek
whereas URI and IRI were/are
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tantek
those are verfiable from the links in the page / dfn
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bear
you keep saying "URL Standard" and then point to whatwg ... which is not where URI, URN or URL are defined as a standard
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tantek
singpolyma: the very example you gave of ISBNs is one that is often given as a something has many "resolvers"
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tantek
bear, the URL Standard is the latest definition of URL, and explicit abandonment of URI and IRI (and implicit abandonment of URN)
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singpolyma
nothing from whatwg is a standard :P
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tantek
there were older RFCs sure
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tantek
but no one is implementing to them any more
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bear
I don't see that in the current RFC
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tantek
singpolyma: why do you say that?
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tantek
interoperable specs with test suites, IP policies etc.
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singpolyma
tantek: whatwg is an industry group, not a standards body
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tantek
singpolyma: it produces standards that are interoperably implemented
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tantek
= standards body
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tantek
singpolyma: you're going to have a hard time arguing that on merits / evidence
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tantek
"in practice" that is - which is frankly a core common cultural assumption even here in #indieweb
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tantek
we're not so much into theoretical proclamations
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singpolyma
I mean, we could deband what "standards body" mean all day I suppose :P I'm probably just too used to open stardards, but arguably ISO and everyone are just as closed as whatwg so maybe none of it means anything :P
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tantek
bear, does that "current RFC" have test suites with implementation reports?
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tantek
singpolyma: also inaccurate
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bear
where did the requirement that test suites and implementation reports become part of what a standards body definition is?
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tantek
pretty sure I wrote a blog post about this ages ago that delineated important differences
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tantek
(e.g. how ISO isn't as open as compared to others)
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tantek
bear, in the past 15 years
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tantek
the bar has been raised for what is a "standard" and how to determine "interoperability"
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singpolyma
I don't think either of those are standard practise for IETF
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tantek
mere vendor claims and or "interop parties" are no longer sufficient
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tantek
singpolyma: yeah, in practice IETF is a bit behind culturally in that way
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tantek
some groups are trying to fix that
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bear
this smells of history rewriting
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singpolyma
tantek: behind who? is there anyone else even worth looking at?
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singpolyma
bear: no kidding
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aaronpk
This sounds like a great debate for not this channel
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tantek
bear, singpolyma, nope, again, blog post with examples, citations: http://tantek.com/2011/168/b1/practices-good-open-web-standards-development
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] 10 Practices for Good Open Web Standards Development
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bear
but we are not talking about *web* standards but internet standards
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tantek
this is indieweb not indieinternet
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tantek
so yeah, we are talking about web standards
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tantek
bear, and read the post, I call out specifically the historical problems of IETF / iCalendar testing etc.
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tantek
I am citing history. no rewriting going on here.
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singpolyma
This list of 10 things is good, but except for indieweb/microformats does anyone operate like this? IETF is close, except for 8,9,10. Other groups tend to fail much earlier (due to not being open in at lest of of develop/iterate/discuss)
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tantek
singpolyma: right, 9 & 10 are what has evolved to be *expected* of current standards development
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tantek
there's efforts to upgrade IETF culture to do so, beyond "running code"
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tantek
I am optimistic about that
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aaronpk
W3C are to some extent
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bear
my original point, before the rabbit holes and such, was that defining URN purely from a web standard view isn't going to give the proper depth of a definition - but i'm going to stop because i'm tired of being told to not worry about anything that isn't a pure web experience
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tantek
right, much of that (explicit open test suites, impl reports) was pioneered at W3C
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singpolyma
aaronpk: W3C... I don't event want to touch that discussion anymore. It's 2018
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aaronpk
I don't even know what that means but okay
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tantek
bear, part of the point of defining something on the indieweb wiki *is* to not only give a "web experience" but an *indieweb* experience at that
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tantek
Wikipedia is already there to "give the proper depth of a definition"
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bear
then we will be removing anything that is implementation details below the line of web/html
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aaronpk
Right indieweb wiki is where you go to understand what something is relative to your personal website
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loqi.me
created /uri (+71) "prompted by gRegorLove and dfn added by [kevinmarks]"
(view diff)
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tantek
bear we have removed plenty of stuff that had nothing in particular to do with indieweb
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aaronpk
Wikipedia can take the scope of defining everything outside of any context
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tantek
it's not about "below the line of web/html"
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tantek
it's about about what do you actually use setup, maintain, develop an indieweb site
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singpolyma
even wikipedia has "notability" requirements (though, no idea why)
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tantek
wherever that goes
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tantek
singpolyma: if you want to drop "It's 2018" type statements, then yes, it's 2018 and no standards group/body that calls itself that has any excuse for not doing open (*free*) test suite and open implementation reports - it was a common best practice 7 years ago as I blogged it
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tantek
bear where are you seeing URC?
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sknebel
https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/tag/url/ for more details on the IETF vs WHATWG URL chaos
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sknebel
(from a non-browser perspective)
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tantek
when I spoke with TimBL about URL origins, he mentioned UDI: http://tantek.com/2014/304/b1/url-started-as-udi-conversation-w3c-tpac
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] How URL started as UDI — a brief conversation with @timberners_lee @W3C #TPAC
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singpolyma
I'm in the awkward situation where I need to go for unrelated reasons, but if I disconnect it'll look like I'm leaving a semi-heated discussion in a huff. So this is just to say I have no ill feelings and am leaving for unrelated reasons :) Big respect for you tantek and aaronpk as always
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tantek
singpolyma: same, keep up the good work on your own site!
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aaronpk
Wait what is URC??
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tantek
IDK bear put it in /urn
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bear
that's a typo most likely
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gRegorLove
I think they're creatures from Lord of the Rings
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bear
URN, URI and URL is what I was referring to - URC is a typo
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tantek
bear I am objecting to "original" as per the conversation I had with TimBL, UDI was more "original" that URI
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tantek
*than URL
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tantek
or URI
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aaronpk
is getting on a plane... ttyl! Donuts en route!
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bear
oh wait - URC is accurate, but it's part of the original design - Uniform Resource Characteric
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tantek
bear - WHOSE original design? not Tim's
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bear
but it's even more hand-wavy-from-the-before-time than URNs
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bear
one of a handful of URC references
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bear
from my understanding - URC never made it out of draft - but that was a long time ago
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tantek.com
edited /urn (+305) "note historical context of URI URL URN URC UDI"
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tantek
There I shoved everything into rough historical order with links
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bear
thanks
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tantek
sknebel: that daniel haxx se link also notes: "The only somewhat modern "spec" for URLs is the WHATWG URL specification. The other major, but now somewhat aged, URL spec is RFC 3986, made by the IETF and published in 2005." (with links)
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@rombulow
You know how HTTP GET requests are meant to be idempotent? Well, do I have the story for you ... a while back I added WiFi control to our garage doors with little Wemos D1s.
(twtr.io/1dJGm1H1JiC)
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tantek
that's more #indieweb-chat right?
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aaronpk
Classic
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[kevinmarks]
With the url resolution conversation it seems to fit
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aaronpk
checks to make sure his BarBot URLs require a post request
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loqi.me
created /WEF (+156) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by [kevinmarks]"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
That's actually why I made the Touch Bar button just queue the drink and not actually start pouring it
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[kevinmarks]
So if you leave them open, a browser restart will queue you up some drinks to console you for the crash
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wagle
oh wow.. Lychee is now trivial to install
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tantek
what is Lychee?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Lychee" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Lychee is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Loqi
[electerious] Lychee: A great looking and easy-to-use photo-management-system you can run on your server, to manage and share photos.
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aaronpk
That looks potentially like a good replacement for Flickr for me
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aaronpk
Does it support videos?
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aaronparecki.com
moved /piwigo to /Piwigo "Proper noun"
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aaronpk
Piwigo also looks nice and it does handle videos
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tantek
is it like Mediagoblin?
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aaronpk
I guess so?
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aaronpk
Piwigo and Lychee are php tho so they're way easier for me to install :-P
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tantek.com
edited /silo-quits (-105) "--utm_*"
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tantek
what is a multirsvp
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Loqi
An RSVP is a reply to an event post that says whether the sender is or is not attending, might attend, or is just interested in the event https://indieweb.org/multirsvp
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