#dev 2018-11-16
2018-11-16 UTC
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# 
GWG aaronpk: What do you think about the venue query that is listed as an example on the wiki?
# aaronpk i think it's promising, but i havent had a chance to play with it myself to have a good opinion yet
# GWG I am thinking of implementing a version of it
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# GWG Is it strange I am spending so much time trying to interpret tantek's h-card?
# GWG homepage.
# GWG Not just the h-card.
# aaronpk Tantek is always an edge case
# GWG I feel like if I crack it, I will have solved everything
# aaronpk heh that was not my takeaway
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# [tantek] I do tend to use a lot of aspects of various web technologies on my site and pages
# [tantek] Especially if I can use them to demonstrate browser bugs
# GWG [tantek]: Why is there an h-card of someone other than you as a child of your h-card when parsed?
# [tantek] is it an org?
# GWG Rebecca Daniels
# GWG Also, why the h-events?
# [tantek] oh yeah - the credit for the photo
# [tantek] I probably should put the h-events in their own feed
# [tantek] GWG, updated. the h-events are now in an h-feed with a p-name of their own
# GWG [tantek]: I thought there was a reason that was eluding me.
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# [tantek] Sometimes something odd is a novel use, sometimes it's a bug
# GWG Your main h-feed has no name either
# [tantek] as my primary stream it didn't seem to need one
# aaronpk how do I know it's the primary stream if it doesn't have a u-url or u-uid property?
# GWG That was what I was trying to figure out.
# [tantek] it is the first
# aaronpk it's the first h-feed in an otherwise pretty complex tree of objects
# aaronpk in general, "first in a list" has been a poor indicator of whether something is the primary thing of the page
# GWG Especially since we were just talking about how some people put their h-card first, some second.
# [tantek] aaronpk "first in a list" would be a fall back if there's no u-url / u-uid that matches the page
# aaronpk But there is, your h-card
# [tantek] in my case it would be imprecise to set the url / uid of any of the feeds to the page
# [tantek] yes aaronpk the h-card represents the page
# [tantek] but since you're looking for a feed specifically, and find a few, none of which has a url / uid that matches the page, then you can pick the first one
# aaronpk I don't like any of this
# mblaney I just parse the first h-feed found on a page, but I think I could improve that.
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# [eddie] Loqi, what do you think about multiple h-feeds on a page?
# [eddie] 🤷♂️ figured I’d try
# mblaney When subscribing to a feed I first do feed discovery, so in tantek's case I should be returning all the h-feeds on the page as individual subscribe options.
# GWG mblaney: I'm having trouble changing my code to do that.
# mblaney Then it would be ok if one didn't have a name or id, the only trouble would be if more than one didn't.
# mblaney Loqi single h-feed on a page or multiple?
# Loqi I think single h-feed on a page
# mblaney Loqi FTW
# mblaney GWG if you want to switch to SimplePie maybe I can add it for both of us ;-)
# GWG mblaney, I am using SimplePie for RSS.
# mblaney I now I'm biased, but doesn't having the same API to pull data from simplify things?
# GWG I go very granular on my mf2 properties
# mblaney yeah fair enough, mf2 does offer a lot more structure. I tend to leave it serialised and pull it out when required.
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# [kevinmarks] If you have more than one feed, naming them is a good idea.
# [jgmac1106] I am building my list of feeds now, debating where to put it, might add a follow me section somewhere
# GWG I want to explore moving my feed off my main page
# jgmac1106 I have alwyas used a static homepage
# GWG I have some ideas around it to implement
# jgmac1106 would you ad a rel=“me” or a rel=“author” to a link to your feeds?
# petermolnar whee, my silo.pasta, along with creating an opml, now syncs with miniflux for subscriptions
# GWG jgmac1106: rel="feed"
# jgmac1106 thx and can I do this? https://gist.github.com/jgmac1106/f04ecebfc65ee469ee9f28fa5f3ad893
# jgmac1106 put a list of feeds in my h-card
# GWG jgmac1106: I'm often wrong about mf2, but I think the u-url is wrong there.
# GWG You seem to be putting it on every url.
# GWG It applies to the url which is the subject of the containing object.
# jgmac1106 yeah now that I have rel="feed" I am thinking the same I just followed what people do when adding silos to h-cards
# GWG So, just the url for your h-card inside your h-card
# jgmac1106 or your social media
# jgmac1106 yes? though don’t see any exampel of links to networks here: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
# jgmac1106 [zegnat] has u-url on any network on his h-card
# sknebel don't put u-urls on them. and if they aren't html pages, add a type= parameter (although if it is user-visible links, I personally would link to html pages and have those link to Atom/RSS, so users can easily view the feed manually, and if at all put atom/rss feeds in <link> tags in <head>)
# Zegnat There is a bit of a discussion about whether u-url is right for external silos. Some people have them (I think tantek and I are examples) because those profile pages are other instances of me thus a url property of my h-card.
# Zegnat Other people feel like rel-me signifies this and opt against putting u-url on there, e.g. aaronpk
# Zegnat The u-url is probably wrong for feed links though. Unless you feel like those feed links have something to do with your business card
# Zegnat Just catching up on the feed discovery chat. So for parsing tantek.com am I reading it right that the flow is something like:
# Zegnat * Can I subscribe to tantek.com?
# Zegnat * What is tantek.com? tantek.com is Tantek Çelik (h-card)
# Zegnat ** Is tantek.com a feed? No.
# Zegnat ** Does tantek.com advertise a rel-feed URL? No.
# Zegnat ** Does the main object on tantek.com (h-card) contain a feed? Yes!
# Zegnat *** Three feeds are found, ask user which one to follow.
# sknebel or "pick the first", since asking about multiple feeds on a page is kind of tricky, how do you express which one?
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# Zegnat h-feed name, or example list of “these items”. That feels like a UI thing readers may have to tackle anyway, pages with multiple feeds linked aren’t rare
# sknebel linked yes, but there you get a clean url for each of them
# jgmac1106 [zegnat] yeah if I drop a link into my reader it will just know all the feeds thare are
# sknebel that's a different scenario
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# jgmac1106 revised feeds in my h-card, not exposing the xml file nowhttps://gist.github.com/jgmac1106/f04ecebfc65ee469ee9f28fa5f3ad893
# [jgmac1106] A few of the feeds on [chrisaldrich]'s site
# jgmac1106 now the challenge comes figuring out how to build a firehose feed that connects all my sites…but that can wait
# [kevinmarks] So if you have multiple h-feed on a page should they have different html id so they can potentially be extracted independently? And put the id in the u-url link?
# GWG That would certainly help.
# [kevinmarks] That seems best practice (and aaronpk already wrote id support for xray)
# sknebel even xray is limited there though (e.g. in some cases it breaks authorship), and nothing else handles it yet as far as I know. so it's certainly a possible proposal, but nothing I'd recommend now as "do this"
# Zegnat I’d say preferably you also make those feeds available at their own URL, and point the u-url of the h-feed to that external place.
# sknebel yeah, that too
# Zegnat sknebel, yeah, I was thinking people would pick the feed and the reader would be subscribing to something like “the second h-feed on tantek.com”. That is of course very brittle
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# Zegnat just uid’s per h-feed could already help parsers out. Subscribed to the h-feed with uid = "events".
# sknebel true. although uids commonly seem to be expected to be urls, but I'm still not quite sure on the meaning of uid in all contexts
# sknebel should ask tantek to write something up clarifying that
# sknebel I guess it's mostly for url = uid checks, if something doesn't have a url the uid can be whatever?
# Zegnat That’s my understanding
# [kevinmarks] In microformats uid are urls. Some people will use non-URL things too, but that's them being unhelpful.
# [kevinmarks] Hm. The page for it does not say that though, it refers to the old vcard spec. We should revisit based on practice.
# Zegnat Where are uids defined as urls? That’s not how I remember them being described
# Zegnat Yeah, exactly
# Zegnat u-uid == u-url is a nice way of being able to say that specific mf object represents the URL (as it is the mf object whos unique id is the particular url), but unique ids can be whatever
# jgmac1106 I have never understood the difference between u-uid and u-url because def of u-uid says “canonical url” and u-url says “typically homepage” how often are those different?
# [kevinmarks] It's been 10 years, we can update these pages
# Zegnat [kevinmarks]: I sometimes feel like some of those pages just need to be marked as archival pages. It isn’t even always clear how and if they apply to mf2 pages
# jgmac1106 I alsways use this when editing my h-card: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
# [kevinmarks] We use u-url in a lot of places. It's legit to have multiple urls. The u-uid one is supposed to be definitive for the item, like rel=canonical is.
# jgmac1106 “u-uid - universally unique identifier, typically canonical URL “ and “u-url - home page “ but my homepage is canpnical so I get confused
# [kevinmarks] You have lots of urls though.
# jgmac1106 and confusion but should I use u-uid on the one pointing to my homepage?
# Zegnat No, u-uid is for the one pointing to the mf2 object, e.g. your h-card
# Zegnat If that happens to be your homepage, then the answer is yes
# Zegnat uid is the canonical URL for the mf2 object (i.e. the h-card or h-entry)
# jgmac1106 but then to get confusing my abiout me page is a way more expanded h-card
# jgmac1106 “: uid is the canonical URL for the mf2 object (i.e. the h-card or h-entry)” you should change the def on mf2 wiki to say that..so much more clear
# Zegnat If anyone currently on a machine with access to mf wiki wants to steal that ^^^
# Zegnat Else I can do that when home
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# sknebel aaronpk: since you'd been looking into Cloudflare apps at some point, they now integrated them with their FaaS stuff, making more things possible it seems: https://blog.cloudflare.com/introducing-apps-with-workers/
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# [manton] [aaronpk] I'm looking into an issue with M.b and Webmention.io, trying to figure out if I made a recent change to break things or if it's new behavior with h-card... Here's an example of a reply post on Micro.blog that isn't being recognized from Webmention.io: http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmicro.blog%2Fbsag%2F1059235&html=&pretty=on
# Loqi eli
# [manton] On first glance, it seems wrong that I have all those extra h-cards... But wondering if it's technically wrong or just noise.
# sknebel that might be the same xray issue discussed yesterday
# sknebel but ys
# sknebel having all those extra h-card is odd too
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# [manton] I'm updating this now to not include the extra h-cards. Hopefully that fixes it.
# [manton] And it'll be cleaner either way.
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# petermolnar https://github.com/csstools/css-prefers-color-scheme - I think I've found a tool to test that prefers-color-scheme media query
# [manton] Sounds like that fixed it. Thanks [sknebel].
# Loqi [csstools] css-prefers-color-scheme: Use light or dark color themes in CSS
# petermolnar or not
# petermolnar because it doesn't seem to be working :/
# petermolnar ok, that's not what I though it is, ignore me
# aaronpk [manton]: good idea removing the extra h-cards. i did just launch some changes to xray a few days ago so some things have changed slightly
# aaronpk [manton]: i'm noticing i am now getting webmentions from pages like https://micro.blog/aaronpk, is that intentional?
# sknebel xray should still have found it via the url IMHO, but that's the same as last night
# aaronpk yeah
# [manton] [aaronpk] No, not intentional... Maybe a side effect of now sending Webmentions when someone @-mentions a domain name. Hmm. Do you have an example post, or is it all posts?
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# aaronpk it's happened a lot over the last couple days
# aaronpk here's the last one, look at the "other mentions" https://aaronparecki.com/2018/11/15/30/
# Loqi [Aaron Parecki] TIL my iPhone's FaceID doesn't recognize me when my mouth is full of food
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# [manton] Ah, I see. That's weird.
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# [manton] Just looking at the code, M.b should never sent a source URL that isn't a conversation.
# aaronpk hm maybe it's superfeedr triggering it then
# sknebel aaronpk: are you getting them from micro.blog, or your superfeedr thing?
# sknebel jinx
# [manton] I assume you're getting target = aaronparecki.com/2018/11/15/30/ and source = micro.blog/aaronpk?
# aaronpk yeah
# aaronpk just weird that it seems to be suddenly happening
# sknebel (hm, maybe a "this page is not supposed to send webmentions" flag would be helpful)
# sknebel superfeedr found the feed, and now is following it?
# sknebel it not happening at all and then suddenly starting sounds exactly like how I thought superfeedr works
# aaronpk good point haha
# aaronpk i have some cleanup to do on webmention.io/xray this weekend
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# [eddie] Yeah I DON'T think I've seen any webmentions like that
# [eddie] So might be something weird like superfeedr found your profile, aaronpk so it's doing it for you but no one else
# [manton] Sounds like a reasonable explanation. If y'all think M.b is doing anything wrong, let me know.
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# [schmarty] anyone who wants to try an iOS shortcut / workflow to post Live Photos to their site as looping videos via micropub, you'll need:
# [schmarty] micropub media endpoint that returns the URL of the uploaded file in the body. micropub endpoint that accepts `video[]`. also since it's workflow you have to type in your micropub and media endpoint URLs and get a token from *somewhere* that'll work with both.
# [schmarty] if that works for you, you can try the shortcut: https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/dbe7377a63424ebe982991495ec73a8c
# 
@12velectronics I liked a @YouTube video http://youtu.be/l7a4aM4YJE0?a JL Audio W3v3 MicroSub™ Product Spotlight (twitter.com/_/status/1063483487045455872)
# GWG Hi all
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# [eddie] schmarty++
# Loqi schmarty has 12 karma in this channel over the last year (63 in all channels)
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# jacky I was curious if anyone had any notion/ideas on "migration" solutions from a indieweb site to another
# jacky like if I was on Known and wanted to move to Wordpress or what not
# [tantek] what is migration
# Loqi migration in the context of the indieweb refers to the process of moving your indieweb site from any one or more of one CMS / web host / DNS provider / URL design / domain name to another https://indieweb.org/migration
# jacky ah okay
# jacky :)
# [tantek] jacky ^^^ start there 🙂
# [tantek] Hey all - anyone run into the problem/challenge of (hash)tags cannot have spaces but category (e.g. WordPress) and labels (e.g. GitHub)? I *think* have a brainstormed an answer that I plan to implement but wanted to first check if anyone else has had this problem, has solved it etc.
# jgmac1106 look at how [cleverdevil] also took the json from facebook and then somehow microppubbed it to his wife’s Known site
# jacky ah yeah this is it https://indieweb.org/data_portability
# [tantek] (Use-case: I use hashtags in my authoring for convenience which get auto-marked up as p-category, and then I depend on those to POSSE as Labels to GitHub when I POSSE issues or tag-of replies)
# [cleverdevil] I have done tons of migrations from different apps/services to my website.
# [cleverdevil] The process that has worked the best for me is an export/transform/import workflow.
# [cleverdevil] First, export data into some structured format, then write a script to transform the exported content to MF2 JSON, then publish via Micropub.
# [cleverdevil] I've done this with Day One, Instagram, Facebook, and my old websites to get everything onto my current site.
# Zegnat [tantek]: I think both sknebel and I use categories / “tags” with spaces in them on our blogs. But I for one do not syndicate so never run into limitations about it
# sknebel yeah, I don't use hashtag syntax for those, so haven't encountered that specific issue
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# chrisaldrich tantek, I want to say I've seen something along those lines hiding in the WordPress repository before. Search there, though maybe use hashtag and category without "Twitter" in your search.
# chrisaldrich I want to say maybe Colin Walker did something like that once for WordPress too???
# chrisaldrich Perhaps I'm thinking of this: https://github.com/colin-walker/hashtags/blob/master/hashtags.php
# chrisaldrich And here's a post from his site that serves as an example: https://colinwalker.blog/honesty/ though he's not using *-category markup
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# [tantek] [chrisaldrich] I'm not seeing any categories/tags with spaces in them in those references?
# [tantek] Zegnat, indeed the question is POSSEing to destinations that either allow or don't allow spaces, and thus designing for that
# [tantek] ok here's my rough brainstorm to poke holes in:
# [tantek] Inspired by MediaWiki's use of _ as space in page names
# aaronpk I wouldn't base anything on mediawiki's underscores
# [tantek] why not? good enough for Wikipedia 😄
# Zegnat I wonder if Google’s official stance is still that hyphens are spaces in URLs, and underscores are kept as underscores
# [tantek] summary: if you have a hashtag UI (e.g. enter hashtags directly in text in your post like you would on Twitter, IG, etc.), then use _ when you mean a space. If you actually mean _ then use __. Then in your markup, use abbr to markup the p-category explicitly with a space, which is what will be picked up by anything syndicating
# aaronpk trying to find citations, but ive seen a lot of discussion about preferring hyphens but underscores being too baked in to MW to change it
# [tantek] Zegnat - maybe 5-10 years ago. I believe they have ditched that
# [tantek] aaronpk, yes, *tons* of citations of preferring hyphens from 10-15 years ago
# [tantek] but sometime in the past 5-10 years, Google started treating underscores in URLs as "spaces" just as much as hyphens, likely due to MediaWiki URLs
# [tantek] also what do WordPress category page URLs look like for categories with spaces
# [tantek] ?
# [tantek] sample markup BTW: <abbr class="p-category" title="Commenter Satisfied">#Commenter_Satisfied</abbr>>
# [tantek] without that last > 😂
# Zegnat Why would that not be <span class="p-category">Commenter Satisfied</span>? Then have the syndication code make it a “hashtag” if needed?
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# [tantek] Zegnat because that's more work for plain text syndication
# [tantek] e.g. to Twitter
# [tantek] instead of just "getting the text" to syndicate, now you have to process the whole thing and change all the things
# [tantek] also re: hyphens - they don't work in hashtags
# [tantek] (they break them)
# [tantek] looks like WordPress uses a hyphen in their Category pages URLs: e.g. https://onecoolsoul.wordpress.com/category/global-news/
# [chrisaldrich] For wordpress, here's an example of a hyphenated first/middle name followed by a space for the last name. They simply add a hyphen for the space. https://boffosocko.com/tag/albert-laszlo-barabasi/
# Zegnat I was assuming you were doing processing anyway, for generating that ABBR. Or were you going to manually author the ABBR element?
# [tantek] nope I was going to autogenerate the ABBR! but that's easy processing on my end to turn plain text -> marked up text, e.g. autolinker, autoembedding etc.
# [tantek] turning marked up text into some weird form of plain text that is *not* just "get the plain text contents" is a lot more work
# [tantek] they are very different processing
# [tantek] hah - yet the WordPress codex uses _ for space e.g. https://codex.wordpress.org/Separating_Categories 😄
# aaronpk that's cause it's mediawiki
# Zegnat Yes, that’s mediawiki
# [tantek] (thought it looks like a customized mediawiki so that's likely why e.g. https://codex.wordpress.org/Special:RecentChanges)
# Zegnat woops, sniped by aaron
# [tantek] it's mediawiki *and* they didn't care enough to change it from _ to -
# [tantek] so that's another datapoint
# aaronpk i've looked into changing it before, it's... a lot of work
# aaronpk and of course will break on the next upgrade
# aaronpk so not really practical
# [tantek] hence "care enough" 🙂
# Zegnat They didn’t care enough to hard fork mediawiki, I guess :P
# [tantek] so basically I will type #Commenter_Satisfied into my text authoring and then my code will turn that into the abbr example I shared
# Zegnat Beauty of the indieweb: your website, your authoring flow :D If you see that work well, go for it!
# [tantek] going to grandfather "NP_*" to leave the "NP_" in place but that's the only hashtag pattern that I think I've personally used with "_"
# [tantek] Zegnat obv. I'm brainstorming it here to hear concerns / see folks poke holes (i.e. why won't this work)
# aaronpk i'm confused about the intention here
# aaronpk you want bridgy publish to syndicate the category with a space? what do you want to show up in readers? the space version or the underscore version?
# [tantek] Zegnat how do you enter categories on your posts if not by just typing a hashtag? Do you have a separate UI you have to click through to explicitly add categories?
# [tantek] Q: "you want bridgy publish to syndicate the category with a space?", A: yes
# Zegnat field called tags: https://licit.li/edit/5ae99cc52af2b
# [tantek] so separate UI
# Zegnat yep
# Zegnat And from my micropub-client-to-be there is simply no support for it at all
# [tantek] right, the convenience of just typing hashtags in-flow in the text to me far outweighs the hassle of clicking and managing a separate field. fewer UI elements, less cognitive load etc.
# aaronpk I end up doing both. sometimes in hte post text, sometimes in the separate UI element in quill
# [tantek] Q: "what do you want to show up in readers?", A: preferably the HTML of my e-content from my post.
# [tantek] building a separate UI for categories/tags is sooooo far down on even an itching list for me as compared to other things
# [tantek] actually likely never, since I'll likely implement Micropub support long before that, and just use Quill if I somehow have an actual use-case that needs that separate UI
# aaronpk monocle shows tags above the date permalink
# aaronpk so my question is what you want the value of that to be?
# aaronpk see examples on https://stream.indieweb.org/
# aaronpk (same UI as monocle)
# [tantek] value: as noted, POSSE via Bridgy, typically to GitHub, for labels with spaces
# Zegnat I think the different in interpertations of tags just comes to the use-case. E.g. I am a big fan of using them to mindmap stuff, kinda like how you can discover cool stuff on kottke by clicking through tags. Those tags are more like labels, aren’t always in the actual content.
# [tantek] for both issue posts, and tag-of posts (repeating myself now)
# Zegnat sknebel again has a whole different thing, where he even adds language data to tags (or was planning to?)
# sknebel that's not yet implemented
# sknebel and will not be in my normal editing UI
# sknebel (which is Quill :D)
# sknebel I technically have a way of adding tags through the main content of my posts, but I almost never use it
# [tantek] aaronpk - interesting examples on stream.iw - e.g. eddie's post at top has a hashtag with a dash in it - which no platform supports AFAIK
# sebsel I have it both: the post has a comma separated list of all the categories, but then on render I regex for #[a-z]+ (but better) and add all those to the list as well
# [tantek] Eddie, aside, markup or data bug, this markup <a class="no-underline u-syndication syndication-box" href="https://twitter.com/eddiehinkle"> doesn't make sense on this post: https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/11/16/1/note/ - your Twitter profile is not a syndication of your post, so u-syndication doesn't make sense there, or rather, the href should be https://twitter.com/EddieHinkle/status/1063314573250449408 presumably
# [tantek] [sebsel] interested in your "regex for #@a-z+ (but better)" as I have found that challenging (I'm using a coarse approximation right now that's not great)
# aaronpk > which no platform supports
# aaronpk not true, my site supports tags with hyphens!
# sebsel yeah, the @ is a Slack-bridge translation error ;)
# aaronpk oops hahaha it changed [a-z] to @a-z like a username
# Loqi rofl
# [tantek] a-z wat
# [tantek] #a-z
# aaronpk for when people mention names with square brackets in IRC it translates it to a slack @-mention like [tantek]
# [tantek] ^^^ just typed those from Slack and didn't get an errant @ so ?
# [tantek] lol
# [tantek] aaronpk show me an example of a note you have with a hashtag with a hyphen
# [tantek] URL
# [tantek] (I want to see how you POSSEd it to Twitter >:D )
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# [eddie] aaronpk tantek: My site also supports tags with hyphens
# [eddie] tantek: yeah that u-syndication is an error and a reminder to fill that in with the actual status url
# aaronpk hah a bunch of tags in my database are actually from [eddie]'s posts that i've favorited
# [eddie] I find it better to at least know that there is a syndication on my twitter than now
# [eddie] s/now/not
# sebsel [tantek] I am using this one right now, I believe Zegnat helped me with it: '/(?<=^|(?<=[^\w\.]))\\\\?(@|\+|#)([a-z][\w\.\-\/]+[\w\-\/])(?:\[(.+?)\])?/i'
# sebsel I might have to post that somewhere else too :P
# [tantek] [eddie] but the UI on your permalinks is then confusing because I click the twitter icon next to the syndication and tags and it just takes me to your twitter profile. similar with the others next to it (not the ones in the footer)
# [tantek] what is a hashtag
# Loqi hashtags are the use of the hash "#" symbol followed immediately by a word/phrase/abbreviation to explicitly denote a topic inline in a post https://indieweb.org/hashtag
# [eddie] Correct, but if you look on those pages, you WILL find my syndicated content
# [eddie] lol
# [tantek] sebsel , please add to https://indieweb.org/hashtags#Regex 🙂
# [eddie] there is no permalink to IndieNews but I want to show it's syndicated there
# [eddie] and currently there is no automated way to retrieve permalinks to micro.blog so I just link to the profile
# [tantek] I thought a permalink to IndieNews was *how* you syndicated it there
# [eddie] That u-syndication link is how I syndicated it there
# [eddie] I mean there is no permalink of my content
# [eddie] because it's just citing external content
# [eddie] so I can't say link to https://news.indieweb.org/en/eddies-post which is fine, because I don't think that needs to exist
# sknebel there are links for submissions, but they don't add much since there's nothing else https://news.indieweb.org/en/eddiehinkle.com/2018/11/16/1/note/
# Loqi [eddiehinkle.com] I just added support for the Micropub Category List query to my website. Looking forward to adding support to Indigenous for iOS in the near future as well. This is the first of many goals completed for #newwwyear 2019.
# [eddie] ohhh
# [eddie] thats cool I didn't realize that, I could do that in the future then
# aaronpk used to show a comment thread there
# Zegnat sees his name used alongside a regex <3
# Zegnat sebsel wasn’t that regex specifically because you wanted to be able to supply multiple things in one go? URL and display name or something?
# sebsel yeah, it's in my codebase as Nickcache::$regex
# [tantek] [sknebel]++ yes that's what I meant. That should be pretty prominent in the "How To" on /IndieNews is it not?
# Loqi [sknebel] has 29 karma in this channel over the last year (83 in all channels)
# [eddie] Ahh under send a webmention it does return the url of your permalink. It's been awhile since I looked at that page
# [eddie] The good news is that means when I fix my code to work properly with bridgy for saving my syndicated url into my post, the same thing will work with IndieNews
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# [schmarty] may be getting obsessed with Shortcuts for iOS + micropub
# aaronpk Maybe rose can interview you about that for her podcast :-)
# [schmarty] trying to figure out a way to kludge indieauth support in here to at least help pre-configure some workflows.
# [schmarty] or simplify the process of getting a token.
# [schmarty] might need a reflection service for it. unless your authorization endpoint will accept a workflow:// callback url 😅
# sknebel what is gimme a token?
# Loqi gimme a token is a helper to obtain an access token from your IndieAuth endpoint: https://gimme-a-token.5eb.nl/ https://indieweb.org/gimme_a_token
# sebsel That's exactly where I build it for: getting auth tokens for Workflow/Shortcuts :P
# [schmarty] sebsel: i found it difficult to step through on my mobile. the tricky points were all the manual entry for my endpoints, copying the code out of the redirected URL, and then getting the *contents* of the final token, which my phone presented as a file that it in no way wanted to open or preview.
# sebsel ohh, yeah that's no good.
# sebsel I wanted to do it all in your local browser, no server involved
# sebsel but that has downsides
# [schmarty] a pair of workflows could clean that up. first, a workflow (probably using a a proxy service) parses your "me" URL for your endpoints, then sends you off to auth. after the "failed" redirect, send that URL to a second workflow which can pull the code and finish the fetch.
# sebsel I see now that you can actually call workflows from another workflow.
# [schmarty] the result would be an auth token on the clipboard. in theory.
# [schmarty] haha i haven't been able to figure that out yet.
# sebsel I also see I can open an SSH session
# sebsel this thing is really powerful now :o
# [schmarty] have you found a list of actions on the web? i am finding it tough to get detailed docs on workflow.
# sebsel I'm just scrolling through the list
# sebsel whoa, now that it's in iOS itself, even my banking app has an integration into it.
# [schmarty] ah
# [tantek] what is workflow
# Loqi Shortcuts is an iOS app formerly known as Workflow used to automate various actions https://indieweb.org/Workflow
# [eddie] Yeah, it’s pretty incredible now
# sebsel It's so weird tho, they translated everything into Dutch for me. So 'dictonary' becomes 'woordenboek', which is what we call it, but still... it feels like a literal book with words :P
# sebsel (trying to parse the authorization endpoint with XRay's rels-function now)
# jacky working on micropub introduced me to 204
# aaronpk An indieAuth client in shortcuts would be amazing
# jacky such a useful code and so many times I've felt "forced" to return _something_
# sebsel progress https://seblog.nl/temp/media-endpoint/60d0e1-img_33756f116d64-1.jpg
# sebsel this might even work
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# sebsel lol, refactoring is hard tho
# sebsel I get so far :( I even get myself redirected to the workflow with the callback url
# sebsel I'm just not able to parse any query params out of it
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# 
@til_mb ↩️ Combining fixes, a new username feature, and disclosure of back-end reply processing from the past few months, the first release covered Webmention improvements: https://www.manton.org/2018/10/09/webmention-improvements-on.html (twitter.com/_/status/1063554263526375424)
# jacky who runs https://micropublish.net/?
# jacky I'm returning 204 and it doesn't seem to like that
# jacky is going to revert to plain ol' 200 :(
# sknebel That's odd
# sebsel jacky it should be 201 or 202 :) https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/#h-response
# jacky sebsel: ahhh
# jacky updates his tests
# sknebel Reading the source it should accept 204 where it is allowed
# jacky E_DEV_ERROR
# sebsel hah, my phone is too old, so no support from Apple re reading out the x-callback-url params
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# [tantek] Zegnat++ delayed props for a good sketch a person->feed(s) discovery algorithm which really ought to be captured on the wiki!
# Loqi Zegnat has 59 karma in this channel over the last year (170 in all channels)
# Loqi [Zegnat] Just catching up on the feed discovery chat. So for parsing tantek.com am I reading it right that the flow is something like:
# [tantek] this kind of person-centric thinking and algorithm/design is *exactly* what we need more of in the IndieWeb.
# [tantek] it's exactly what was *missing* from the old feed-centric thinking of all the "RSS Readers" and RSS/Atom wars etc. which allowed social media to sweep in and win users by designing with person-centric thinking instead
# KartikPrabhu if the objective is to follow feeds that flow can be simplified: * Can I subscribe to tantek.com? ** Does tantek.com advertise a rel-feed URL? No. # ** Does tantek.com contain a feed? Yes! *** Three feeds are found, ask user which one to follow.
# KartikPrabhu not quite sure why it is relevant whether the h-feed is nested inside a h-card
# [tantek] the objective should not be primarily to "follow feeds", rather it should be to "follow people". rando feeds that are not associated with people (or orgs) should an edge case, not a driving design
# KartikPrabhu sure. but I am not understanding why the nesting is an issue
# [tantek] the issue is tree traversal work and who should do it
# [tantek] the consuming use-case dev wants a call like gimmeAnHFeed(params) that I can parse and do stuff with
# [tantek] while they get a JSON tree of objects which may or may not have an h-feed at any particular level, so they need to tree traverse to find them
# KartikPrabhu oh I see. the issue is whether you traverse the HTML tree or the mf2 one
# petermolnar different cases, [tantek], both are useful. following a feed might be a subset of a person's full presence, you may not want to follow a complete life
# KartikPrabhu also that ^
# petermolnar personally I never liked the sound of "following someone"
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# [chrisaldrich] Julien Genestoux has a pretty solid discovery too in SubToMe, but sadly it finds nothing to allow me to follow at tantek.com. Of course, not all of the feed readers in its system may be able to deal with h-feed either.
# [chrisaldrich] what is SubToMe
# Loqi SubToMe is a button that content publishers can put on their sites which enables users to subscribe to their feed in whatever reader they choose — sort of a universal follow button https://indieweb.org/SubToMe
# sebsel [smarty] there you go: https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/26e8f4b39b134bae8b722fc0ffdb2afb
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# [sebsel] oh, missed the auto-complete [schmarty]
# sebsel it's really neat. You can actually embed this workflow into another workflow
# sebsel So I made it so the thing starts with a text field, where you can store your token
# sebsel and if it's empty, it will go through and do the flow.
# sebsel I only had to use the same domain.example hack + copy paste to get the auth code out, which is sad, but it works.
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# [schmarty] Wow! sebsel++!
# [tantek] petermolnar I never said both are not useful in fact I took care to word in terms of "primary" etc.
# [tantek] re: "following a feed might be a subset of a person's full presence, you may not want to follow a complete life" that is only half correct. Good use-case identification but wrong abstraction IMO
# sebsel and I also have to be careful only to edit the 'IndieAuth private' workflow on my phone now, because the other one is now public :P
# [tantek] if a person clicked to follow a subset of a person's presence, then capture *that* knowledge, both that there was an attempt to follow a person and that there was a preference to follow a subset. NOT "following this feed" disconnected from any notion of person
# [schmarty] You might be able to replace the text with a "customize this workflow" thing in the settings of it? I think those values stay private?
# [tantek] once your UI/code assumes "just follow this one feed" you have completely lost the context of what the user was asking for, which was for a *person*'s particular *subset*
# [schmarty] Hahaha this is much better than the two workflows I was hacking on this afternoon.
# Loqi nice
# [tantek] model subscriptions as "person / aspect, URL details", not "feed: URL"
# sebsel [schmarty] yeah also big thanks to aaronpk for Xray, because parsing the HTML to get the rel's for the endpoints out would be a real pain otherwise ;)
# [tantek] use-case you just met someone at a conference so just want to follow their quick real-time updates (notes, maybe photos), but later decide you want to follow their articles too. if your reader is person-centric, you can easily see what other aspects you can follow. if your reader is feed-centric, you have lost that context and have to go research what to go follow
# jacky do we need more libraries to do that parsing work?
# [tantek] jacky it's a combination of specifying what algorithm to do that traversal (it's not really parsing, you have already built a data structure from all the text), and then a library to implement the algorithm
# [tantek] parsing implies you're looking at a text string and turning it into a bunch of objects
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# [jgmac1106] Part of my thinking that my preferred feeds should be in my h-card. You meet me at conference and check out which feeds you want.....but Love idea of arranging readers around people
# [tantek] [jgmac1106] it's not a new idea. This is a big reason why "Social Media" crushed RSS
# [tantek] "Social Media" understood designing for/about *people* ("arranging ... around people"), while all the plumbing-centric devs kept arguing about *feed*-readers
# jacky hmmm
# [jgmac1106] Wow great insight in terms of the design
# sebsel [schmarty] The question works! And it seems like I need to share a new link once I altered this one, so that's fine too. This one has Instructions: https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/6b70abc373ae4a03add1f9fd8c862e2d
# [tantek] people like interacting with people directly. not nerdy abstractions like "feeds"
# [tantek] Google Reader was unable to pivot from "feeds" to "people" so naturally it got abandoned by people for social media, and died of neglect
# [jgmac1106] .... But Twitter shows if you follow the too many people a network gets useless and you look for topical feeds
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# [tantek] and yes I know you could make categories for each person and put all their feeds in their category but that was *work*
# [tantek] [jgmac1106] Twitter shows lots of things. the "following too many people" problem goes beyond Twitter. note that "following too many *feeds*" was *worse* than following too many people
# [tantek] (people have multiple feeds etc.)
# [jgmac1106] Yeah I threw out my decades old feeds bc I couldn't curate any more
# [tantek] so it was a relief to switch from "too many feeds to read, never caught up in my RSS Reader that looks like a bad email client" to - wow, breath of fresh air, I can follow only the *people* I want to and have fewer "things" to manage than I did before!
# [tantek] bingo
# [tantek] curating feeds was MUCH harder/worse than curating followings
# [jgmac1106] But I love following specific hashtags in Twitter similar I guess to subreddits, communities
# [tantek] hashtag is following "Topic". again, higherlevel concept, not the plumbing of "feed"
# [jgmac1106] Maybe that's difference not really following a hashtag but joining a community
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# [tantek] [jgmac1106] I don't know where/how to write up this insight about people vs feeds, how social media crushed RSS
# [tantek] maybe that should just be the title of the blog post
# [tantek] which you're welcome to steal 😄
# [jgmac1106] Yeah you are onto a major difference in design paradigms
# [tantek] This is a big reason why IndieWeb has a chance of being even better
# [tantek] by being focused on everyone with their own site/domain - we're back to people-centric
# KartikPrabhu actually, that is a big problem I have with twitter. I follow people but sometimes I am inundated with tweets on topics that I don't find very interesting
# [tantek] people-focused alternative to the corporate web - just like the home page says
# [tantek] kartikprabhu yes you should be able to mute particular topics (hashtags)
# [jgmac1106] @kartikPrabhu at any given time I have 30-40 hashtags in Tweetdexk
# [tantek] but IMO the default (follow a whole *person*) is correct. then fine tune from there, but always as details about how you follow someone
# [tantek] not as "here's a rando collection of feeds that happen to have the same author"
# KartikPrabhu also the "follow a person" view does not include posts on not-personal-website like css-tricks.com for instance
# [tantek] sure it could also be follow an org, follow a brand, follow a topic
# [tantek] point being, in *none* of those cases is it ever "follow a feed(plumbing)"
# [jgmac1106] So here is my UI dream, person has a follow button. I click it. I then get to select which feeds to follow and then which channels to put them in. I publish a following post, their h-card gets syndicated to my following page
# KartikPrabhu fair enough
# [tantek] "follow a feed(plumbing)" is a lazy developer abstraction that neglects user-centric focus
# [tantek] [jgmac1106] skip the "select which feeds to follow and then which channels to put them in." - that's "work" as I mentioned above. Instead, list the people you've followed, and (much later if you wish!) be able to "triangle open" each of them to view the different aspects/topics/posttypes they share, and be able to uncheck (mute) them as you wish. later you may "triangle open" them and unmute aspects.
# KartikPrabhu [tantek]: the "triangle open" could also happen in the follow UI. by default everything is followed but if you wish you could curate
# [tantek] agreed
# [tantek] (maybe even a summary for each aspect of how often they post)
# KartikPrabhu reminds me of adactio's post frequency charts
# KartikPrabhu https://adactio.com/
# [jgmac1106] Makes sense... I also want to connect this to ethics and display as well... Two way follow, 1st , one way follow, friend of friend, have webmention endpoint, everyone else
# Loqi Jeremy Keith
# [tantek] > Tantek
# [tantek] v Tantek
# [tantek] [x] photos (3/week)
# [tantek] [x] notes (1/day)
# [tantek] [x] events (2/month)
# [tantek] [x] articles (1/year)
# [tantek] there's your ASCII UI sketch 🙂
# [jgmac1106] Thought about something like this http://webmentionavatar.glitch.me/
# [jgmac1106] For people on my site... Guess I could theoretically display the same for how many times I interact with them