#dev 2019-07-15

2019-07-15 UTC
KartikPrabhu, BenLubar, [fluffy], [tantek], [xavierroy], kanej[m]2, Lilz|BetaMe[m], lyon[m], cameronbrown[m], phynite[m], myfreeweb, plindner[m], JeffMaherVegas[m, pierreboc[m], vasa[m], Tianyi[m], M[AXEL]Darr[m], Nebulous[m], iiogama[m], mattl, Kongaloosh, jgmac1106[m], swedneckpermaweb, eddy[m], grantcodes[m], Swedneck_, carsonfarmer[m], fozzie[m], jenncloud[m], drshamoon[m], omz13[m], jee[m], Keegen[m], romaric[m], mikeal[m], drbh[m], Lolicon[m], andrewxhill[m], npfoss[m], discord[m], freethinkingaway and skippy joined the channel
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@kazuhito IndieWeb and Webmentions | CSS-Tricks https://ift.tt/2xFXWoi (twitter.com/_/status/1150673698925367296)
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[tonz] In WordPress all webmentions end up in the same moderation queue as local comments, so maybe tying it into your comment flow is an option.
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[grantcodes] !tell jacky updating replies should already be technically possible with micropub updates on the `comment` property. But I think it would be much more complicated - both UI and tech wise - than editing most other micropub properties.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@janboddez ‘Adding webmentions to my blog’ https://sebastiandedeyne.com/adding-webmentions-to-my-blog/ (twitter.com/_/status/1150684441687285760)
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@RebelDevNews "Adding web mentions in a PHP project" https://freek.dev/1406-how-to-add-webmentions-to-a-laravel-powered-blog (twitter.com/_/status/1150685249396989953)
discord[m], swedneckpermaweb, Kongaloosh, freethinkingaway, drbh[m], jenncloud[m], eddy[m], fozzie[m], Keegen[m], romaric[m], Lolicon[m], grantcodes[m], jgmac1106[m], drshamoon[m], npfoss[m], andrewxhill[m], Swedneck_, mattl, jee[m], omz13[m], mikeal[m], carsonfarmer[m], Nebulous[m], lyon[m], iiogama[m], phynite[m], Tianyi[m], M[AXEL]Darr[m], plindner[m], vasa[m], JeffMaherVegas[m, Lilz|BetaMe[m], kanej[m]2, pierreboc[m], cameronbrown[m], myfreeweb, [tantek] and [jgmac1106] joined the channel
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@janboddez ↩️ 'Adding Webmentions to my personal site' https://andy-bell.design/wrote/adding-webmentions-to-my-personal-site/ (twitter.com/_/status/1150702039380504577)
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@petermolnar ↩️ @Tautvilas @Tautvilas #indieweb also has non-clumsy login-with-domain solution: https://indieweb.org/IndieAuth (twitter.com/_/status/1150725473158205446)
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sknebel !tell [Rose] some mentions of a Reddit setup here: https://danq.me/2019/07/15/danq-ecosystem/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [Dan Q] DanQ.me Ecosystem
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[Rose] Hello.
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[schmarty] o/ hello!
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@LaravelDepot http://murze.be: ★ How to add webmentions to a Laravel powered blog https://t.co/1cXADI2hcX (twitter.com/_/status/1150781218612482048)
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sknebel hi [Rose]! just wondered that I hadn't seen you in a while :D
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@phpdeveloper http://murze.be: ★ How to add webmentions to a Laravel powered blog: The comment section of this blog used to b...: https://fdlr.io/bv6 (twitter.com/_/status/1150782074896494592)
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[schmarty] unicode 😬
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[Rose] Hehe, broken ankle, parents visiting, hospital trips, not a lot of time has been available for writing code sadly.
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[Rose] (Plus the wrist muscles didn't like typing for quite some time. Now it's just my thumbs which dislike typing, and who needs spaces?)
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sknebel [Rose]: assumed something like this. Hope you're feeling better now overall
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[schmarty] !tell [mJordan] looks like your h-feed is working now! aaronpk's new "feed preview" feature on monocle has been really helpful to me when debugging html+mf2 feeds. https://monocle.p3k.io/preview?url=https://mjordan.codes/blog/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[mJordan] [schmarty] sweet! I'm slowly figuring it out. Thanks for the tips 🙂
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@luiscbrenes http://murze.be: ★ How to add webmentions to a Laravel powered blog http://dlvr.it/R8S70D (twitter.com/_/status/1150800966934904832)
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[snarfed] holy crap, that is quite a diagram. https://danq.me/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/DanQ.me-ecosystem-selected-2019-07-14.png
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[schmarty] danq++ wowzers
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Loqi danq has 1 karma over the last year
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[snarfed] reminds me of tantek's from ages ago, https://farm6.static.flickr.com/5250/5301870765_80a1e06212.jpg
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jacky !tell [grantcodes] wait do you mean using MY micropub server to modify the visibility of a reply I've replied? If so, that's interesting - my server wouldn't be able to handle that
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi jacky: [grantcodes] left you a message 8 hours, 33 minutes ago: updating replies should already be technically possible with micropub updates on the `comment` property. But I think it would be much more complicated - both UI and tech wise - than editing most other micropub properties.
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[grantcodes] Well I think you should be able to update your content and moderate comments using the existing API.
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[grantcodes] But it would probably be difficult. Especially if you're not storing everything in pure mf2
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[grantcodes] *mf2 json
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gRegorLove Some Bridgy URLs (likes, it appears) are redirecting to the twitter.com URL, e.g. https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/1148751489394851840/37519892
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[snarfed] gRegorLove yes! all ideally. i added that a bit ago, intentionally. is it causing a problem?
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[snarfed] https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/commit/78446e91bed1b0f783b7efb7a4cf538e548d6577
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gRegorLove Ah, I follow meta redirects I think
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aaronpk oh no lol
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gRegorLove Hm, maybe not.
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[snarfed] "I" meaning your wm receiver?
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gRegorLove Yeah. I think I spoke too soon though. I'll dig into it more.
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[snarfed] lots of discussion on whether this is ok, and whether wm receivers should follow meta redirects, in the IRC log links in that commit. https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2019-04-11#t1555004634348000 , and esp https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2019-04-16#t1555440757959400
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Loqi [snarfed] i have a narrow niche use case for the proxy html+mf2 pages that bridge services like bridgy and bridgy fed render for silo posts
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gRegorLove Thanks!
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[snarfed] specifically, aaronpk said "i'm not sure about the meta redirect question," "but a JS redirect seems like a safe alternative," which i foolishly ignored
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[tantek] Lolwut (out of context reaction)
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[snarfed] 🤡
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[tantek] let's not make WM receivers follow meta redirects please
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aaronpk oh boy, bets on whether google even looked at all the fragmention work? https://github.com/bokand/ScrollToTextFragment
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Loqi [bokand] ScrollToTextFragment: Proposal to allow specifying a text snippet in a URL fragment
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aaronpk ooh hey they did link to it in the "related work" section!
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[snarfed] tantek: how about WM discovery? https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/253
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Loqi [snarfed] #253 support HTML meta http-equiv=refresh redirects
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[tantek] snarfed, I'd say no, because it's required by the spec: https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#sender-discovers-receiver-webmention-endpoint
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[snarfed] hmm. the language there is "MUST fetch the target URL (and follow redirects [FETCH])"
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[snarfed] and the language for receiving is "MUST perform an HTTP GET request on source, following any HTTP redirects"
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[snarfed] so "HTTP" is the distinction btw discovery and receivers, and is meant to be deliberate?
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[snarfed] might be worth elaborating, but you and aaronpk know that balance in specs better than me
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[tantek] snarfed, short answer, if you follow the [FETCH] ref, it provides more precision around how to handle HTTP redirects
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[tantek] I believe the language for receiving should have also said "follow redirects [FETCH])
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[tantek] which both end up being "handle HTTP redirects as defined more precisely by Fetch"
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[tantek] either way, no mention of any meta tags
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[tantek] probably worth adding to an FAQ
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[tantek] what is webmention FAQ
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Loqi The Webmention FAQ is for documenting frequently asked questions about Webmention and their answers https://indieweb.org/Webmention-faq
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[snarfed] thanks! sounds good
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[tantek] aaronpk, do you think https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/253 is worth opening an issue on the Webmention spec for? Just to clarify or at least put in the FAQ (which doesn't currently mention the meta tag)
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Loqi [snarfed] #253 support HTML meta http-equiv=refresh redirects
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gRegorLove ended up being a cron issue, not following meta redirects
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[snarfed] gRegorLove++
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Loqi gRegorLove has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (83 in all channels)
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@mentallion How to add webmentions to a Laravel powered blog #News http://dlvr.it/R8T54N #php #laravel https://t.co/YOh5eYzzYM (twitter.com/_/status/1150896605337227264)
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GWG I have many things to think about.
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GWG I feel the desire to talk about some Indieweb concept right now
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GWG I am still thinking about h-feed
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GWG Reading tantek's commentary on determining the primary h-feed
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GWG https://indieweb.org/feed#How_to_Publish
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GWG Is there any grounds to change it from you can optionally use h-feed to we recommend you use h-feed?
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GWG I am just wondering what the criteria is for recommending people make my consumption easier
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[snarfed] it's a wiki, just go ahead and edit
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GWG I know
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GWG I was just asking for feedback
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GWG Should it be a recommendation? I think optional suggests it isn't widely adopted as a thing
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GWG I would like to improve h-feed
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GWG When did Firefox remove native RSS support? Probably should be on that page too
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GWG December.
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[tantek] "easier for consumers" is problematic wording
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[tantek] "consumer" usually means a person *consuming* some capitalist good or service / experience
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GWG To make your intent more explicit?
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[tantek] in that regard, the statement is inaccurate and doesn't convey what you intend
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GWG The opposite of a publisher is?
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[tantek] try to use "consuming applications" instead as that should be sufficiently precise to convey the meaning you want
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[tantek] GWG, yes opposite of a publisher is a reader
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[tantek] which can refer to software or people, and in typical meaning (non-jargon), is interpreted as a human
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[tantek] so if you want the more obscure (tech jargon) meaning, you should use a more precise term / phrase
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[tantek] that's the first problem
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GWG Is the feed page a good page to discuss my issues or brainstorms on h-feed or elsewhere?
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GWG I always wonder if I should write on my site first
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[tantek] sure! /feed#Brainstorming subsections, go for it
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[tantek] I mean yes if you feel like it
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[tantek] either is ok, don't feel obligated either way
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[tantek] even if we fix that phrase to: "easier for consuming applications" it still has a problem
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GWG I am still contemplating what we discussed at IWS about better feeds
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GWG Yes?
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[tantek] which is that it fails to actually provide a self-interest appeal to the person you want to take the action
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[tantek] why should a publisher care one second about making things "easier" for someone/something else?
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GWG I assume a publisher wants me to read their work
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[tantek] that's better than "easier"
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[tantek] there is benefit to the publisher, it's just that "easier for the consuming application" fails to convey that benefit
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GWG So the motivated self interest is better display in readers
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[tantek] yes, that's better than "easier"
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[tantek] "better display" is better than "easier for [the other guy]"
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[tantek] even better would be something more specific than "better display" because the next question is better display how?
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GWG Also, look at tantek.com...if i was less intent on consuming your site, I might have given up, for example
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[tantek] GWG, my site is not the best example for documentation because it is 1) a special case, 2) likely an edge case since I'm potentially experimenting with stuff, 3) very likely to change as I iterate given the feedback loop(s) in the community
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GWG On the other hand...if I really want to read different sites, I should be prepared for different publishing
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[tantek] GWG, one example specific advantage could be, give your feed a specific name by marking it up explicitly as an h-feed with its own p-name
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GWG And explicit author as opposed to individual ones
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[tantek] I don't think we have h-feed p-author worked out anywhere so no I wouldn't pitch that
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[tantek] or do we?
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[tantek] nevermind http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed#Core_Properties
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[tantek] a-ha another one, give your feed a representative icon with the photo
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GWG The danger of implied over explicit is that I will misunderstand your intent
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[tantek] those are all good specific reasons to use explicit markup
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GWG I am not advocating for mandatory.
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[tantek] there is no implied feed name or icon for example
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GWG Yes
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[tantek] it's not mandatory and that's clear
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GWG And a feed doesn't need to be a set of posts
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[tantek] you can say, you should markup your feed explicitly with h-feed so that you can explicitly express at least a name and icon for the feed, and the author for the feed as a whole
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[tantek] something like that
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GWG I think we established recently that people have feeds of h-cards and h-events
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GWG So I probably should note that while it is traditionally posts, it doesn't have to be
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GWG We have enough publishers of that I should document
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GWG Also should add an example of a marked up h-feed
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GWG With all those properties on the h-feed page
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[tantek] while it may make sense to try to note exceptions in a definition or summary, it tends to be both confusing and counterproductive to understanding
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[tantek] it's better for a definition to capture typical meaning / use, and then further description to broaden that as necessary