#dev 2020-01-24

2020-01-24 UTC
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@steveivy Finished #webmention discovery in #goldfrog, all 23 discovery tests on https://webmention.rocks pass. :) (monkinetic txt-45b17fa) (twitter.com/_/status/1220530389858414595)
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GWG Trying to think of how a site can delegate IndieAuth to a secondary site. Do I have to implement relmeauth?
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jacky hmm
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jacky I can see relmeauth being used
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GWG Trying to think of other ways. The scenario being one on the list I have of requests. Someone wants to have two WordPress sites, and use a single token and authentication endpoint. And I tie the endpoints into the install.
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jacky ooh that feels like a smell
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jacky like sharing _one_ token across two installs?
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GWG Token endpoint, not token
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@chrisbiscardi ↩️ Nothing, comments are awful and have a mostly negative impact. Sometimes I use Webmentions at most, which basically shows twitter discussion. I built gatsby-plugin-webmentions for this (twitter.com/_/status/1220570829622169601)
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@chrisbiscardi ↩️ pull off webmentions you mean? The great thing about it is that if there are none, you can just *not show the section*. (twitter.com/_/status/1220572015871975424)
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Ruxton GWG: what gets in the way of just setting the token endpoint to the other site? isn't that how people delegate to indieauth.com ?
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GWG Ruxton, it currently returns the URL of the user you logged in with, which is on a different domain.
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GWG So, I need to think about how it validates it is allowed to represent that URL
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Ruxton ahh yeah that makes sense, fun fun
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GWG I have to turn a local only endpoint into one that can be used remotely
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GWG This will also allow autoauth...
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GWG Wait...
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[tantek] Oh dear, Gandi.net criticism
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[tantek] what is gandi
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[tantek] https://twitter.com/andreaganduglia/status/1215199147701231616
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[tantek] (thread)
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "gandi" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "gandi is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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@andreaganduglia So you have lost out data and distrupt our services and now it's our job recover from backups? Are snapshots available? @gandi_net @gandibar @gandinoc https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EN1BKh2WkAI4Y4O.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1215199147701231616)
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GWG But in autoauth, the me parameter cannot change...hmmm..
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[tantek] personal-domain << More criticism (see whole reply-context thread up) of Gandi.net poor handling of snapshot backups and how they responded: https://twitter.com/andreaganduglia/status/1215290652742823936
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@andreaganduglia @StephanGandi @gandi_net @gandibar @gandinoc @champitoad You wrote in clear words that snapshots are backups. Today we find out that you keep backups on the same data filer (don't do that it's an industry wide knowledge). I have my data backups, but without snapshots I have to face the manually reinstall of all my VPS on that filer. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EN2UZ6TX4AAMe-H.png (twitter.com/_/status/1215290652742823936)
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Loqi ok, I added "More criticism (see whole reply-context thread up) of Gandi.net poor handling of snapshot backups and how they responded: https://twitter.com/andreaganduglia/status/1215290652742823936" to the "See Also" section of /personal-domain https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=68009&oldid=68008
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[tantek] TBH that's enough for me to not recommend them for any webhosting, and if that's how their customer service works, it makes me question sending anyone to them for DNS registration too
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[tantek] Anyone here using Gandi for their personal domain(s)?
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[Rose] I use them via Route53 for one domain.
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[Rose] But I do just mean the DNS part, hosting for that is done on Amazon S3.
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aaronpk I've registered some domains there but tbh I didn't even know they had hosting services
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wink I had one at gandi, until a few months ago. I loved their old DNS interface, the new one was meh.
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aaronpk Business opportunity? https://twitter.com/sarah_edo/status/1220570131178196994
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@sarah_edo All I want for Christmas is to see only the tweets from people I follow, and nothing more (twitter.com/_/status/1220570131178196994)
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/sarah_edo/status/1220592167971782656
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@sarah_edo @slsoftworks I would pay for a subscription service (twitter.com/_/status/1220592167971782656)
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jeremycherfas I used to have everything at Gandi, but over the past few years I moved away for just such reasons (except that they never lost my snapshots).
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[tantek] what is business model
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Loqi business models are ways to offer indieweb products and or services that users pay for both for their own benefit, and in support an open indie web https://indieweb.org/business-model
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[tantek] business model << https://twitter.com/sarah_edo/status/1220592167971782656 for https://twitter.com/sarah_edo/status/1220570131178196994
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@sarah_edo @slsoftworks I would pay for a subscription service (twitter.com/_/status/1220592167971782656)
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Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/sarah_edo/status/1220592167971782656 for https://twitter.com/sarah_edo/status/1220570131178196994" to the "See Also" section of /business-models https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=68028&oldid=63591
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jamietanna[m] Anyone got any thoughts on https://www.jvt.me/mf2/2020/01/ou75u/?
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Loqi [Jamie Tanna] #IndieWeb folks using Indigenous for Android (https://indigenous.realize.be/) or at least allowing a Geo URI (geo:51.501476,-0.140634) on their #Micropub endpoint - do you attempt to remap that longitude / latitude ref to a place, or do you currently...
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swentel jamietanna[m], I currently don't do much it yet, I just store it. I do use the q=geo query option to get suggestions for places though
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aaronpk jamietanna[m]: i have, i would say, a lot of experience with this, and trying to do any sort of automatic venue detection is going to be mildly successful at best, and only in the most ideal circumstances
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swentel jamietanna[m], but in the future, the idea is to have a map with all checkins/geocaches/other post kinds and put markers on them
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jamietanna[m] Swentel thanks, good to know 🙃
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aaronpk if you live in a low-density area where venues are spaced out 50-100 meters, then it's pretty straightforward to map a lat/lng to a place. but as soon as you get into cities, it falls apart very quickly
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aaronpk the location reported by phones isn't always super accurate, so the dot might show you across the street. not to mention buildings with multiple floors.
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jamietanna[m] That makes sense. I seem to remember Quill allows checking into an actual place for that reason?
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aaronpk no i dont have any checkin interface in quill
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aaronpk but other micropub apps do!
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swentel it makes me wonder if should keep looking for ways to render markers on a map or not
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swentel (for the tracker in indigenous)
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swentel tried using atlas, but usually don't see an actual map
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swentel but even then, if the map would render, it probably won't really render nicely say, following the streets I walked :)
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aaronpk what do you mean you don't see a map?
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swentel aaronpk, e.g. http://atlas.p3k.io/assets/sample-map.png you see the marker and then the streets here. Why I try, I often see nothing.
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swentel not sure because that's I'm located in belgium hehe
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swentel *if that's
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swentel *if that's because
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swentel djee, my typing is horrible today
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aaronpk you could try a different base map
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aaronpk I know that one works in some places outside the US but map data is one of those things that varies wildly due to licensing and stuff
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aaronpk If by "nothing" you mean like not even a blank image of the size requested, that might be a bug, so file an issue with a sample url that causes it
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swentel aaronpk, oh, no, so, I see the marker (or the path when passing multiple markers), and an image, just no streets etc
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swentel but I'm going to experiment with the Here SDK for android
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swentel it allows for quite some requests in the free tier
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aaronpk Cool
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swentel and I'm guessing not many people actually use the tracker at the moment :)
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aaronpk probably better to use either the built in maps on android or a real SDK for it anyway
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swentel yeah
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swentel I should update /trip as Indigenous can post that now
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swentel and drupal understands it
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aaronpk Oh wow
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swentel aaronpk, see https://twitter.com/swentel/status/1211734731391406081 (it has a screenshot of the path too coming from atlas) :)
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@swentel First experiment using a minimal GPS tracker in Indigenous: track your itinerary and post it as a trip to your micropub endpoint. Next up is adding better default intervals depending on type and a nicer preview of the trip itself (tips welcome). #indieweb #location https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENDyTzrXkAAxD4I.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1211734731391406081)
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aaronpk Nice
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aaronpk oh "map data not available"
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aaronpk Yeah if you try different tiles it'll probably work. There's a handful of them defined with short url parameters in atlas
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swentel I'll try
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swentel it's been fun writing this part already
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swentel added screenshot on the indigenous page too
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swentel I've been thinking to maybe contact Eddie too to get the iOS version going again, but I first need to get my hands on a Mac ;)
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[jgmac1106] swentel my goal would be if I have tracker active I could pin a post or photo (syndicate) to the tracker, I know trackbook wants to stay so simple and will never allow pinning
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[jgmac1106] So currently I have to do this manually after the fact by finding time and/or gps coordinates of a post and picture and then add to gpx after.....only did it once...too much
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[snarfed] is finally adding a "closed to new users" warning to https://twitter-atom.appspot.com/ due to twitter now requiring review for API keys
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[snarfed] has been waiting for them to announce that they're turning off old unapproved API keys, including bridgy and granary. head in the sand, mostly. no clue what to do about that yet 😐
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jacky ugh I hate that part so much
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[snarfed] from https://developer.twitter.com/en/application/rejected : "Thank you for your interest in the Twitter developer platform. Based on our review of your use case, we are unable to approve your developer application at this time...We don’t currently allow you to appeal this decision."
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[schmarty] "we are unable"
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[schmarty] must be hard for them
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[schmarty] haha let me not play that off with sarcasm. that kind of language is infuriating and dismissive.
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jacky [schmarty]: _extremely_ so
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jacky like no pointers on how to improve
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jacky just "gtfo"
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[snarfed] easy there, that was just a snippet, there's lots more detail and links to the policies
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[jgmac1106] Just poke fun at projectbluesky at that point snarfed...
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[jgmac1106] We could document successful wording that has worked for people
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[jgmac1106] I assume end is near as well..the review is automated need to learn trigger words
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[snarfed] i'm not saying twitter is bad or wrong here. i just expect granary/bridgy aren't the kind of apps they want, and don't comply with their policies, and i don't know if i'll be able to get around that
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jacky nah like
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jacky if they reject something
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jacky there's _def_ a reason
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jacky they can include it in on that page since they use js;dr everywhere else
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jacky tbh I hope the issue is just the display requirements lol
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[snarfed] eh we'll see. twitter is not the most...effective company, and they added these req'ts literally a year and a half ago, https://blog.twitter.com/developer/en_us/topics/tools/2018/new-developer-requirements-to-protect-our-platform.html , and haven't turned off grandfathered-in apps yet, so who knows
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[jgmac1106] You don't think the bots do any kind of language analysis? Also adds difficulty to non native speakers
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jacky yeah like I still got some apps whose creds work
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jacky just hoping for better
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[jgmac1106] I know it took couple tries to get Sadiks app approved for Known... We would get rejected, write different app and apply again
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[snarfed] yeah, the API use case for POSSE is very different, and more ok w/them, than backfeed
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[jgmac1106] Ohh yeah pulling out and displaying content people shared on Twitter without using their embeds... Privacy... I gave Twitter not snarfed permission...
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[jgmac1106] I think with threaderapp it was displaying @ usernames and linking to profiles
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[KevinMarks] Right, if you built the thing Sarah Edo was asking for upstream they'd block your api key.
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jamietanna[m] Re the longitude / latitude convo earlier - looks like Jeremy Keith stores it but let's OpenStreetMap translate it https://adactio.com/notes/16345
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Loqi [Jeremy Keith] Every day!
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jamietanna[m] Anyone got any thoughts on https://www.jvt.me/mf2/2020/01/dezyy/?
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Loqi [Jamie Tanna] What are folks using for free/low cost notifications for personal projects? I know https://indigenous.realize.be uses https://pushy.me and until now I've used https://pushbullet.com, but given https://www.jvt.me/mf2/2020/01/yelaf/ I may need to repla...
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jacky jamietanna[m]: I've been tempted to set this up by hand using my server's current resources
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GWG I use Pushover
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sivy ahoy
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[schmarty] o/
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[schmarty] woohoo, thanks!
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sivy /nod
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[schmarty] sivy: my incoming webmention handler stores posts in the filesystem as Jekyll- and Hugo- compatible JSON files
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sivy json?
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sivy this is new to me
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sivy I only know markdown+yaml frontmatter
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sivy do tell
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[schmarty] both Jekyll and Hugo support much more general "data" folder layouts.
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[schmarty] in Jekyll under _data/ and Hugo under data/
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sivy ie https://jekyllrb.com/docs/datafiles/ ?
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[schmarty] that's the one!
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sivy would love to hear more about your implmentation
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sivy did you write your own software, or build on jekyll/hugo?
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sivy i like the json idea
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[schmarty] i may have gone a liiiittle bit overboard in how i built it, but essentially i store a data file per incoming webmention. the filename is a hash of the URL that sent the webmention, so that also becomes the lookup key under site.data.webmentions.mentions[HASH].
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[schmarty] the receiver makes note of the target on my end and i have an index that maps my posts's path to a list of hashes
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sivy interesting
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sivy do you mix comments/webmentions?
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sivy or pure WM
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[schmarty] i have some template logic that then renders those by looking up any entries in the webmention index for the current page's path and loading and rendering each one.
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[schmarty] i keep them fairly separate as i haven't had native comments on my site in a while.
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sivy i’m thinking one mentions file per post
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[schmarty] oh and to answer your earlier question - my webmention-catching service is separate from Hugo. the service manages the entries in data/webmention_io/
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sivy yeah i don’t have much use for comments
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[schmarty] and whenever my site rebuilds, Hugo finds them there as needed.
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sivy interesting
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sivy how do you sync the data from the FS to github or?
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[schmarty] there's more info about my webmention catcher here: https://indieweb.org/Morris
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superkuh [schmarty], do you limit file size or aggregate space used any way?
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superkuh I also store webmentions to disk but limit each to <8KB and <1GB per day using logrotate and nginx config for message body size.
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[schmarty] haha, so, i don't sync or save the incoming webmentions to git at this point. 😅
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[schmarty] they just live in the filesystem of the server that my site builder runs on.
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superkuh Right, so anyone spamming POST could DoS that box?
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sivy ah!
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jamietanna[m] Schmarty I'm also using JSON format for my files in `content/` in Hugo - makes it easier to publish indie post types from something automated
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[schmarty] superkuh: i only store one copy of any webmention per source URL. so i can get notified about it as many times as they want, but it won't save any new data.
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sivy [schmarty]: do you ahve the json file format documented somewhere?
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jamietanna[m] GWG interesting, looks OK for pricing - $5/device and 7500 requests a month. Much better than the 100 I get currently with PushBullef
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superkuh Ah, okay. That probably mitigates most situations.
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[schmarty] superkuh: it could still definitely be abused with do-nothing URL changes.
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sivy (happy that Go has nice struct <-> json mappings :)
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[schmarty] oh another wrinkle is that i did not want to handle all the webmention verification, so Morris is actually a webhook receiver for webmention.io 😬
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[schmarty] that bit could be swapped out if you were doing your own handling.
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sivy i think I’m going to write my own receiver/verifier
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sivy but I like the json contant idea
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sivy got a sample?
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[schmarty] sivy: webmention.io sends a "jf2" format payload with some details it was able to intuit about the webmention. aaronpk has a doc'd example somewhere on the site that i'm trying to find now.
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[schmarty] heh this is a bit roundabout, but the payload looks like this: https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/blob/master/views/webhooks.erb#L37
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sivy https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io#find-links-to-a-specific-page
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Loqi [aaronpk] webmention.io: Easily enable webmentions and pingbacks on any web page
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[schmarty] ooh, yes! that .jf2 is the same format.
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sivy i wonder if i could use that to find any old webmentions from when i was using wm.io
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sivy could be useful
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sivy like that format though
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[schmarty] sivy: yep! i wrote a script to grab all the mentions that webmention.io knows about my site: https://github.com/martymcguire/morris/blob/master/refresh.php
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sivy nice
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[schmarty] if i had to do this over again, i've been thinking of ways to make it work in hosted-but-politely-cached build environments like netlify.
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[schmarty] i'd probably have the build script run some version of that refresh script, paging back through all mentions until it finds that it's overwriting cached ones. that way a fresh build will get them all, but it won't abuse wm.io by pulling them all every build (😱)
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jamietanna[m] <[schmarty] "i'd probably have the build scri"> I gave up doing it statically as I wanted the webmentions to appear as soon as they were received, and my site didn't rebuild that often back then https://www.jvt.me/posts/2019/06/30/client-side-webmentions/
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Loqi [Jamie Tanna] Rendering Webmentions using Client Side JavaScript
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[KevinMarks] I made mention.tech return the same format - that's in python so may be a little closer to Go if you want code to look at
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jamietanna[m] !tell aaronpk is there anything I can do to help https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/issues/94 get verified and merged? Would be awesome to start Microsub'ing to all the Meetup.com events I'm part of
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [jamietanna] #94 Add support for parsing MF2 JSON
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aaronpk ooh
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aaronpk i forgot about that sorry
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aaronpk jamietanna[m]: what's the difference between your two test files there? the names don't give me any indication
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jamietanna[m] Hey good point, I think it's a bug in the impl, one of them should have a different content-type
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aaronpk ah. they both have: application/mf2+json;charset=UTF-8
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jamietanna[m] I won't have my laptop until tomorrow evening to fix it if that's OK? Otherwise can edit in GitHub UI
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aaronpk what should it be?
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jamietanna[m] Also do you have any preference for what to name the files? (happy to move to the PR if preferred)
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jamietanna[m] One should be that, the other `application/microformats2+json`
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aaronpk ah k. i don't see code that would recognize that one tho
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jamietanna[m] Agreed, looks like I need to expand the `if` statement I've added, as tests will then start to fail as it won't match it
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jamietanna[m] Cool I'll correct them tomorrow then give you a shout - sorry I didn't spot them before now
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aaronpk ok cool!