#dev 2020-04-03

2020-04-03 UTC
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vilhalmer I heard the ooof in his voice also and it was excellent, would recommend
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jacky lol
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Zegnat jacky: yeah, ideally they are, but sadly almost none of the browsers implement the entire extensions spec. And Safari dropped out from it completely.
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[KevinMarks] That sounds like a good case for deleting the unimplemented parts of the spec.
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Zegnat [KevinMarks]: it is more like the vendors had a look at the spec, took inspiration, and then went their own way building :P
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Zegnat Hm, the spec only has a single editor left, from Microsoft, who never really implemented the whole thing in IE to start with IIRC
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[LewisCowles] I know that in firefox an entrypoint is a wonderful vendor agnostic `browser.` whereas in chrome it's branded `chrome.` A little annoying, but both quack the same way. Or is this different to the browser extension API I'm thinking of?
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[KevinMarks] That's my point though - making a spec up without implementations and demanding people impl it never goes well
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swentel building install packages for indigenous, fingers crossed .. :)
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[LewisCowles] Someone mentioned preferring composer installs for PHP projects. I've just found this https://composer.rarst.net/recipe/core-package/ and https://github.com/johnpbloch/wordpress/blob/master/composer.json, https://github.com/johnpbloch/wordpress-core/blob/master/composer.json, https://github.com/johnpbloch/wordpress-core-installer/blob/master/composer.json which use composer with WordPress
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[LewisCowles] the main complication is the need to overwrite config.php, which comes with wordpress core, so for other projects, like known. I'm hoping this won't be an issue
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[LewisCowles] One of todays goals is to have the ability to use known, without polluting it with too much of my heroku button work.
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[LewisCowles] all things I feel should be in core known are there. Things that are silo'ed can then live in a separate silo. Or at least this is the hope
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[LewisCowles] figured these links may help others
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jamietanna Hey xsteadfastx moving here from #indieweb
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jamietanna So I publish to my site using my Micropub server https://www.jvt.me/posts/2019/08/26/setting-up-micropub/ and for content that POSSEs to Twitter, I use https://brid.gy/ which requires me to send a Webmention after the post is updated, which I have another service I've written that sends webmentions when it knows the site has updated
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Loqi [Jamie Tanna] Setting Up a Micropub Server for www.jvt.me
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jamietanna I've not got the syndication link added to the Hugo data (yet) as my Micropub server doesn't support edit functionality, but once it does, it'll be able to do that, and yes it'd trigger a new rebuild + upload of my site
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@ryangjchandler ↩️ @sebdedeyne @themsaid @ericlbarnes I'm looking into sending the webmentions myself to http://webmentions.io for my own comments form. (twitter.com/_/status/1246057319600918528)
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[grantcodes] RE browser extensions: As far as I understand the spec was pretty much a copy of chrome extensions but slightly modernized, there is a polyfill by mozilla that I've had good results with though
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@dandevri ↩️ High on my list: - Dark mode toggle switcheroo - Webmention support - Webshare API support (twitter.com/_/status/1246064906807513089)
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@ryangjchandler Added webmentions to my blog during my lunch break today. Followed some of the logic from @sebdedeyne 's article on how he implemented them recently, check that out here: https://sebastiandedeyne.com/webmentions-on-a-static-site-with-github-actions/ Probably going to write my own article about doing it inside of Jigsaw too! (twitter.com/_/status/1246076131452715008)
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superkuh Hm. If webmentions.io is the only way to receive then you really don't "I'd rather have ownership over them".
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superkuh Seems more like dude has given github and webmentions.io ownership of his site.
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aaronpk depends on your definition of ownership
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aaronpk not everyone wants to self-host every part of the stack, and that's okay
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[snarfed] aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 59 karma in this channel over the last year (211 in all channels)
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[snarfed] also only a small fraction of indieweb sites use webmention.io. the vast majority of sites https://indiemap.org/ surveyed were on either wordpress or known, both of which handle webmentions themselves
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Loqi Indie Map is a public IndieWeb social graph and dataset. 2300 sites, 5.7M pages, 380GB HTML with microformats2. Social graph API and interac...
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@ryangjchandler ↩️ Ah, yeah I see. I'm using a pretty rough data transfer object for my webmentions so I don't have any inline PHP in the templates. https://github.com/ryangjchandler/ryangjchandler.co.uk/blob/master/app/DataObjects/Webmention.php (twitter.com/_/status/1246106667118481410)
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[jeremycherfas] I’ve been having a really strange problem, not IndieWeb except that my site tries to be indieweb. I make changes to CSS and to the HTML, and when I look at the source, the HTML includes the correct classes, but the Classes don’t seem to be there when I inspect in Firefox devtools. I’ve tried cachebusting by changing the version in the CSS link, as advised, and don’t know what else to try. Suggestions, please.
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sknebel [jeremycherfas]: do you have an example online?
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[jeremycherfas] Not yet. Maybe Sunday.
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sknebel hm, then it's hard to help
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sknebel sounds to me like a syntax error of some kind, givne that you probably don't have anything in the way of JS that would mess with classes
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swentel anyone wants to test indigenous desktop on iOS? :D created a mac build, which at least worked here on my partner's laptop (but older version of mac), Let me know :)
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swentel I'd like to have a confirmation of at least one more mac laptop which works ;)
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aaronpk oo
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swentel here's the link: https://realize.be/Indigenous-mac.tar.gz ;) (will be removed in a couple of hours)
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swentel going to figure out now if github can build those for me when I tag a release
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swentel (also, warning, might crash haha - and very rough of course)
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swentel although I already use it more than my phone atm, especially for reading
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[LewisCowles] superkuh RE: webmentions.io giving webmentions away, there is also no requirement to use that specific service. It's an example that doesn't require you to build a server-side service before getting started. Someone here shared how they combine that service with GitHub Actions to backup their webmentions, which allows them to use a third-party service and keep their data
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aaronpk it opens!
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swentel good start :)
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swentel ok, now trying to build one on windows (glad my partner has two laptops hehe)
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swentel but a bit annoying I can't build on linux for mac
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aaronpk hm i can't paste into the token field
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aaronpk right click is disabled, as is command+v
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aaronpk types it out by hand
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swentel aaah damn
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swentel yeah, changed something yesterday in the default menu's
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swentel good to know!
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swentel hmm, I can copy/paste here (linux though)
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swentel weird
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aaronpk hm it looks like it didn't save the token 😭
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aaronpk all that typin
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swentel damn, sorry :/
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superkuh [LewisCowles], I read the page before commenting. I'm aware of all those things. I still think it is an example of *not* having ownership rather than an example of having ownership.
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swentel but, thanks for testing already, will open the laptop of my partner and debug a bit on it
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aaronpk superkuh: that's because your definition of ownership is different than theirs
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superkuh Yep. Like some people call it "my discord server" or "my facebook page".
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aaronpk for some, ownership means portability
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[LewisCowles] I'd question this implication of permanence in ownership / control anyway. If it's on the internet, you have a rather substantial impermanent and insecure relationship with an ISP anyway
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[LewisCowles] I'm unsure given that, what barrier webmention.io is not meeting for superkuh
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swentel aaronpk, https://github.com/electron/electron/issues/18365 (djeez)
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Loqi [MatthewB19] #18365 Copy/Paste text with CMD+C/CMD+V
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swentel oh well, will implement some code ;)
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swentel all other platforms work fine pfff
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aaronpk whaaat
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aaronpk how is this okay
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swentel don't know either, this is basic functionality imho
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aaronpk copy paste is a basic function of keyboard entry, why is breaking that acceptable??
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aaronpk also like what...they had to go out of the way to make that not work
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swentel ok, by default there's a menu with 'Edit', I removed that (because it contained copy/paste etc)
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swentel didn't know it would affect this .. ;)
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swentel adding back
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aaronpk so if the menu is there then copy paste works?
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swentel yep
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aaronpk weird!
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swentel kind of lame
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swentel aaronpk, new version: https://realize.be/Indigenous-iOS-1.0.0.zip copy/paste works now (at least here)
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aaronpk yay
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Loqi giggles
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swentel ok, video done too, next up, testing on windows
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[jgmac1106] jermeycherfas is anything minifying your CSS? You are making changes to your stylesheet but these aren't getting translated to the mini?
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[jeremycherfas] !tell sknebel Yeah, that’s the sort of thing I’ve been thinking of, but I think I’ve tested everything.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[jeremycherfas] No, wait, it could at a stretch be invisibles in the CSS. But I’m done for the day. Going to make a note and check tomorrow. I’ll kick myself if that is it.
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[jgmac1106] swentel I can test the micropub side but my tokens do not work with microsub on Known
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[jeremycherfas] No minification that I’m aware of. Again, will take another look tomorrow. No, actually, that’s the wrong understanding. The CSS is being loaded, the classes are present in the HTML, but the CSS is not being applied to those classes. That’s why I think sknebel may be onto something being wrong with the syntax.
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GWG Curious. What is the best way to mark up multiple versions of the same photo at different resolutions? Same question for video/audio?
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[snarfed] GWG: srcset, probably for all three
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[snarfed] https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/7
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Loqi [tantek] #7 Should u-* parsing special case img srcset?
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GWG What about <video><source>? Does anyone use that?
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swentel I use it on my site, but is there something that allows you to tell a source is for a different resolution?
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[jgmac1106] <--gets to that point, and says "F it" and thows in some inline styling, I run into issues sometimes when I try to style semantic html tags nested in another selector... .long article ....I find (probably my ignorance) that article gets all the rules not just those nested in long
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[snarfed] srcset is an attribute of source
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swentel oh, didn't know that
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[jgmac1106] gwg https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/HTML/Multimedia_and_embedding/Responsive_images
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[snarfed] ie srcset=... is a multi-resolution alternative to src=... in the img, video, and audio tags
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[snarfed] having said that, mf2 parsers still may not support it yet (?) details in the github issue ^
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GWG I was looking at video/audio, not images though
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[jgmac1106] see what snarfed said, it is the same
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[jgmac1106] and don't forget about the file then for your captions
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sknebel [snarfed]: request for a consumer to say what format they want still stands ;)
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Loqi sknebel: [jeremycherfas] left you a message 35 minutes ago: Yeah, that’s the sort of thing I’ve been thinking of, but I think I’ve tested everything.
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[snarfed] sknebel: hah. guess i could propose something, but i'm not a spec or parser author, i'd rather defer to them
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GWG I'm just trying to solve the problem of my Parse This library getting multiple video or audio formats and deciding how to return them, so I suppose I could adopt the proposal and cite it there
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[snarfed] GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (139 in all channels)
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GWG I figured out how to find Youtube's multiple formats of video in a URL
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swentel ok, indigenous windows on desktop seems to work too :)
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swentel last one now for linux
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Zegnat GWG, probably nothing helpful, but here is some documentation on how I did it in my XRay branch: https://indieweb.org/User:Vanderven.se_martijn/feed-entries-with-post-type-video
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GWG That looks great, Zegnat
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[tantek] do we have anyone actually using / depending on srcset for their existing website design at all?
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[tantek] before we talk about microformats usage/challenges of srcset, I'd like to see real world examples documented (of existing uses of srcset)
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Zegnat GWG: maybe a bit more text on my specific reasoning and usecase than would be usual for the wiki. But there is some of the format. And at the bottom you’ll find some links to other formats and ideas
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GWG Zegnat: I wonder if that might work better as references in a Microsub context
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Zegnat Possibly. jf2 there, which may make it more microsub indeed. But if any of those links help/inspire you, mission accomplished, haha
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GWG swentel: What does Indigenous do with refs?
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GWG Zegnat: I parse a lot more than I consume right now
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GWG I call it 'aspirational' parsing
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swentel GWG, it uses it for reposts/quotations for instance
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swentel to render the original content/reply/tweet and author
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GWG Replies? Bookmarks?
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swentel let me check
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GWG I also wonder if captions and alt text should be a ref
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GWG If I start parsing those...there's an issue for PHP-MF2 for that, I think
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swentel GWG: reply, follow, repost, quotation, like, bookmark, checkin (for geting lat and lon)
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swentel wait, no
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swentel I'm lying
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swentel checkin is the checkin property
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[jgmac1106] gwg why I use my figcaption as p-summary often, parsewrs seem to handle it fine
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[jgmac1106] ohh captions in the video...there are examples on the video page
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GWG For now, I'm just thinking about doing alt, captioning, and format parsing for various sites.
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[jgmac1106] there isn't any special mf2 for that just markup for screen readers for default and language
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GWG [jgmac1106]: Zegnat cited some ideas
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[jgmac1106] but why do you need any? if someone is using captions in a video file, they already have the tools to parse and get what they need
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[jgmac1106] I know of no microformats enabled screen reader, beyond idea that POSH just works..and that doesn't require mf2
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GWG You are talking about captions in the video...I'm talking about image captions and alt text, and the equivalent for video/audio.
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[jgmac1106] isn't figcaption an HTML element? <figure><img><figcaption></figcaption><figure> I can put what ver mf2 (and do) on the figcaptions
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[snarfed] tantek, agreed, srcset adoption is probably low, but there is some on https://indieweb.org/srcset#IndieWeb_Examples . i'll add more
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[snarfed] also i've had multiple requests for srcset support in bridgy and bridgy fed
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[jgmac1106] not in terms of WP themes, many themes take an img upload and then render a bunch of images in srcset
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[tantek] yes, capturing those examples would be helpful
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GWG I likely will capture some as I figure out how to improve it
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] citations helpful
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[jgmac1106] I think it is core: v
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[jgmac1106] https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2015/12/responsive-images-in-wordpress-core/
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GWG [tantek] gave me the idea of improving this when he commented on it a week or two ago, about how PHP-MF2 is picking up his alt text as content
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[jgmac1106] so a large chunk of the web uses srcset
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[grantcodes] Yeah think wp defaults to using srcset now
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[tantek] that's not been my experience with random view sources
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[tantek] hence why I'm kinda dismissing vague anecdotes like that without citations, at least for prioritization purposes
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[jgmac1106] I don't know how to get a better citation then it is in WordPress Core
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[jgmac1106] than*
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[tantek] just because some tech is in WP Core doesn't mean it is actually in use on the web. depends on the feature etc.
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[jgmac1106] Kirby used it to by default I think when I was playing around with that
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[tantek] that's why a general announcement citation like that is interesting, and a good heads-up, but pretty much inactionable
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[tantek] also, getting phpmf2 updated to actually support the existing img src+alt is like 10000% more important than spending any time talking about srcset
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[tantek] kinda why I'm unsympathetic to the discussion currently
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[tantek] (any change to srcset parsing will need a spec update, eventually an experimental implementation, then actual implementation including in phpmf2 with a flag, then eventually in top of tree by default, then eventually a release)
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[jgmac1106] yeah I am not sure what it has to do with parsers beyond gwg own goals with Parse this
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[tantek] point is, the img src+alt code has been in phpmf2 by default for ages (has it been a year yet?) and anything else (like srcset or any other fixes/features) will get stuck at that exact same point
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[snarfed] updated https://indieweb.org/srcset with more examples in the wild and feature requests
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[tantek] so spending any energy talking about new stuff like that is nearly futile until you can figure out how to get phpmf2 actually updated regularly
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[jgmac1106] https://resilientwebdesign.com/ uses srcset
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GWG [tantek]: I will look through the php-mf2 issue list. Maybe I'll see if I'm up to knocking any off.
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[snarfed] php-mf2 is one of the most important parsers, true, but if it's poorly maintained, that ideally shouldn't block mf2 parser/spec progress, right? those should be orthogonal
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GWG I think gRegorLove is an approved reviewer.
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[snarfed] other parsers have led the way with new features before. img alt is a great example
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[snarfed] (in mf2py)
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[tantek] snarfed, no, in the specific case people are bringing up with WordPress, phpmf2 is the only parser that matters
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[tantek] so if WordPress matters (as a source of examples etc.), then phpmf2 matters, and that must be handled first
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[snarfed] sure! but no, wp was just one example, not the overall point. lots of other in-the-wild examples and feature requests
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[snarfed] anyway. i don't feel strongly. i'll back away slowly
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[tantek] don't get me wrong, I like srcset. this is a prioritization pushback
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[snarfed] prioritizing++
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Loqi prioritizing has 1 karma over the last year
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GWG It's the same reason I would consume something and maybe push conversations along on it
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GWG I want to get some movement on things that may be stuck
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[tantek] GWG, it's a good reason to push on img src+alt
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gRegorLove reads scrollback
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GWG gRegorLove: If I decide to try working on PHP-MF2...will you be my guide?
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[jacky] re: the bit about srcset, on implementing a reader, stuff like that would be amazing
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gRegorLove Sure, I'm always happy to help and review PRs. We have quite a good set of updates in master branch currently that I'd like to get released.
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[schmarty] gRegorLove: is there a blocker in the release process?
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[jacky] could allow readers to be more network performance (one could also proxy images by default but this would be a general patch with more things browsers do nowadays)
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gRegorLove Mainly need someone to review some of my PRs and merge them, then decide if there's anything else to get in the release.
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[schmarty] are they here? https://github.com/microformats/php-mf2/pulls
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[schmarty] lol the top one is mine >_<
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gRegorLove I need to check #microformats logs
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gRegorLove Yes, those PRs
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gRegorLove -> #microformats
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sknebel [jacky]: mind leaving a comment on the GH issue above then? :)
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[jacky] will do
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swentel so, anyone who wants to quickly test the indigenous linux build? ;)
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[jacky] swentel: yo@jacky.wtf 🙂
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GWG swentel: I'll do it.
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GWG How?
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swentel [jacky], you have mail
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swentel but I can just paste the url here too of course heh
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swentel https://realize.be/Indigenous-for-desktop-linux-x64-1.0.0.zip
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swentel unzip
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swentel then enter the dir and run ./Indigenous
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GWG I can handle that
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swentel I'm going to build better packages for next releases and a snap too
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swentel start screen connects to default reader, but you configure your own endpoints too, but manually
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swentel no indieauth flow yet
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GWG How do you add a token then?
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swentel via 'Settings', there's a token textarea field
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swentel it's saved in ./config/Indigenous/config.json in your /home/user
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swentel (at least here that's the location)
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Zegnat config or .config (dot-config)?
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swentel euh yeah
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swentel in /home/user/.config
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Zegnat Sounds good :) I like apps that stick to my .config
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[jacky] swentel: a flatpak might be easier and that’ll get across more Linuxes tbh
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[jacky] $XDG_USER_CONFIG ftw lol
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swentel [jacky], oh, good to know
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swentel and there's an electron add-on to create, so should work
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swentel figuring out how to automate all this is really going to be the hardest part of this hehe
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sknebel resists starting an AppImage vs flatpak discussion :D
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swentel I secretly hope GitHub can automate this for me
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sknebel building those on CI should be doable. I don't have experience with Electron specifically, but happy to take a look and try and help if you have issues
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swentel sknebel, the most annoying thing atm really is that I had to create the mac build on my partner's laptop :)
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swentel unless I did something wrong on my machine, doing this for the first time, so it's all new
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swentel windows build did work though thanks to wine
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Zegnat I think GitHub Actions/Workflows have macOS these days. So if you can find an electron building one that should be able to run cross-platform
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GWG swentel: I'll wait for the RPM
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swentel GWG, fedora?
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GWG swentel: Yes.
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GWG I'm a red hat person from way back
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swentel ok, been a while, used to run that until 12 or 13 or so
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sknebel ah yeah, Apple and it's effective ban of cross-platform builds is seriously annoying
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swentel yeah me too
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sknebel despite my note above - if it's easier to generate, AppImage is also pretty good to for basic universal Linux distribution
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GWG If there is an automatic github packaging tool, I would ask you add it. Otherwise I'll deal myself
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Zegnat srcset << 2020-04-02: Scott Vandehey, [https://cloudfour.com/thinks/responsive-images-the-simple-way/ Responsive Images the Simple Way]
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Loqi ok, I added "2020-04-02: Scott Vandehey, [https://cloudfour.com/thinks/responsive-images-the-simple-way/ Responsive Images the Simple Way]" to a new "See Also" section of /srcset https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=69388&oldid=69386
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swentel GWG, there's a whole bunch of electron packages to generate those (including deb, flatpack), so I'll def add it
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swentel just hoping that tagging would automagically do it for me :)
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swentel and otherwise some custom bash scripting
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Zegnat I think GitHub can trigger a workflow on tag creation. There is definitely a webhook for it (`create`, check `ref_type` for `tag`)
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swentel yep, reading https://github.com/samuelmeuli/action-electron-builder now
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Loqi [samuelmeuli] action-electron-builder: :electron: GitHub Action for building and releasing Electron apps
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jamietanna swentel the Linux client is looking good so far!
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swentel cool :)
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swentel there's a ton of things to add of course - including dark mode ;)
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[Joe_Masilotti] If anyone needs help or wants to chat about testing in Swift or RoR shoot me a message! I ran a live session last week with 8 developers where we went through dependency injection and mocking in Swift without any libraries.
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[jacky] GitHub ~acquired a package management company~ has a tool for packaging but it’s not tailored for standalone things https://github.com/features/packages
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[grantcodes] Working on a rebuild of the postrchild browser extension over the weekend, any feature requests for a browser extension micropub client?
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aaronpk oh nice
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[snarfed] [moving here from #indieweb] aaronpk are youtube comments in the "community" section the same as "about/associated with a channel?" if so maybe this is the API: https://developers.google.com/youtube/v3/guides/implementation/comments#comments-list-channel
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aaronpk oh maybe!
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swentel hmm [snarfed] do you see something weird with sending webmentions to my site from brid.gy? asking because I upgraded my site, and entries on my page keep saying 'Sending' ..
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swentel otoh, it was able to publish and crawl, so maybe I just need to have some patience :)
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[snarfed] lol yeah background tasks like polling and sending wms have a fixed capacity. looks like the wm sending queue has 197 tasks in it right now. they'll get through eventually!
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swentel aah ok :)
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swentel thanks!
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jacky !tell swentel it works nicely!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
lahacker, AngeloGladding and leg joined the channel
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jacky yo aaronpk
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jacky what's https://quill.p3k.io/docs/channels about?
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aaronpk oops! i forgot to write that
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jacky :)
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jacky I just fixed my site so post types are shown properly
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jacky and I noticed it
[fluffy] joined the channel
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@sonicrocketman @Aaronpk, do you know why my webmention replies aren't reaching you? Likes work fine, and normal mentions seem to work. (twitter.com/_/status/1246213958077280257)