#dev 2020-07-16

2020-07-16 UTC
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jacky I don't follow
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Frosti What I mean is that when you go to a specific URL, what you get is a wall of text with no noise or anything
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Frosti Like an image has an address
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Frosti So, stories and literature can be posted anonymously and freely, at a standard link you can put on your blog.
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jacky so you want to like strip any of the "extra" parts of a site to focus on the "content" that's provided?
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jacky something like the reader views in Safari or Firefox?
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Frosti Yes,
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Frosti Yep
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jacky Gotcha
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jacky Some tools in the IndieWeb do that when you use Microformats2 to define what _is_ the content - it's a thing you'd see in a social reader
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jacky what are social readers
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Loqi A social reader is a modern interactive reader that allows you to directly respond to posts (with a like, comment, etc) right there inline with posts as you read them (as people do in social media), in contrast to legacy feed readers which were one-way read-only experiences and provided no mechanisms to interact with or respond to posts https://indieweb.org/social_readers
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jacky although I think only Monocle provides a "logged out" view of that rendering
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Frosti I'd want to make a super-minimalist site for that kind of work, but that sounds like the idea
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jacky That sounds cool! I know there's a PHP library that might help with this if Microformats2 parsing isn't immediately a thing
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jacky I think it's called readability?
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Frosti I'd love it if anyone was willing to take up the project; I've yet to learn how to code (I'm in a class w/ greg)
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Frosti Gotta go, thanks!
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jacky Sure but like most of the work people do in here is solely passion based; building apps is hard and time consuming
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jacky it's a little unfair to just suggest things for people to build and to a degree, devalues the effort, care and time that's put into it
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jacky so with /content_warnings in mind, I've written so that people can specify multiple ones in posts for koype publish
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jacky if I can hack this together quickly enough, I might be able to demo it in time
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[jgmac1106] frosti thanks for sharing the idea and there are prior art idea like jacky said, you can upload a plain text file and have just plain text...but like we were talking about a plain website that works offline is just text with a url
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[jgmac1106] Suggest just throwing your idea together in a post on your micro.blog site
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[tantek] do you want to show authorship? (who wrote it)
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[tantek] do you want to show when you published it?
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[tantek] etc.
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[jgmac1106] ohh oops you left..sorry I didn't see it..notice the idea tantek is pointing out important consideration...everyone's definition of minimal is different sometimes
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[jgmac1106] What is anonymous?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "anonymous" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "anonymous is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[jgmac1106] What is Anonymous?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Anonymous" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Anonymous is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[jgmac1106] What is private?
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Loqi private posts refer to posts or portions of posts which are private to either the author or to a limited audience chosen or previously approved by the author https://indieweb.org/private
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[jgmac1106] What is anonymity?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/anonymity
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[jgmac1106] a page with no dfn......is that a meta joke?
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jacky if that's the case
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jacky write.as is _perfect_ for this
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jacky IIRC they have microformat markup so it'd be indieweb-friendly
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[jgmac1106] yes...jacky perfect example will share with frosti at camp tomorrow...exactly what he was describing
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[jgmac1106] IIRC though paid account for write.as you can't make changes to the header and footer required for some stuff on the free account...though to be fair long time sense I took it for a spin
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jacky I mean if you want control in these spaces, you're going to have to hand roll
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[jgmac1106] yeah I have a lot of poet friends and writers using write.as they enjoy it especially the community aspect similar to micro.blog
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[jgmac1106] I can't remember what the key feature between paid and unpaid...had to do with editing a footer and header can't remember....ohh now I know....it wasn't anything at all indieweb related...adding a web ring
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[jgmac1106] couldn't edit the footer on the free account
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jacky lol so I was looking for a way to detect if a string might have HTML
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jacky this answer made me happy https://stackoverflow.com/a/15458987/602588
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[schmarty] Haha I like that
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[schmarty] What is html reflex?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "html reflex" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "html reflex is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[schmarty] Argh autocorrect
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[schmarty] What is html regex?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/html_regex
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[schmarty] Haha, yess, one of my favorite wiki entries, added when I was still doing the podcast: https://martymcgui.re/2017/04/21/184150/#t=380,407
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[schmarty] Oh hmmm. I wonder if I broke my media fragment thing
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[schmarty] 6:19 is the timestamp of interest
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Zegnat html_regex << [https://stackoverflow.com/a/1732454 Source]
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Loqi ok, I added "[https://stackoverflow.com/a/1732454 Source]" to the "See Also" section of /html_regex https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=71427&oldid=36183
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Zegnat html_regex << [https://stackoverflow.com/a/15458987 Check if a string is HTML]
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Loqi ok, I added "[https://stackoverflow.com/a/15458987 Check if a string is HTML]" to the "See Also" section of /html_regex https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=71428&oldid=71427
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Zegnat That was a great regex, jacky :D
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[manton] As some of y’all know, I’ve been writing a book called Indie Microblogging for forever. With the upcoming Micropub pop-up session on my mind, I’ve been updating the draft of the Micropub chapter with various requests that Micro.blog supports. If anyone wants to check it out, I welcome any feedback. https://github.com/microdotblog/indie-microblogging/blob/master/part2/micropub.md
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@lobsters What we talk about when we're talking about "Webmentions" via @jackyalcine https://lobste.rs/s/2kb9qt #api #culture https://martymcgui.re/2020/07/15/what-we-talk-about-when-were-talking-about-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/1283782257946157056)
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[snarfed] more confirmation that the new Twitter API, with the stricter approval process, is expected to entirely replace the existing API: https://blog.twitter.com/developer/en_us/topics/tools/2020/introducing_new_twitter_api.html#launching
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[snarfed] > Eventually, the new API will fully replace the v1.1 standard, premium, and enterprise APIs. Before that can happen though, we have more to build, which is why we are referring to this phase as Early Access.
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@fluffy New post: Plaidophile: Stuff about webmention https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/1529-Stuff-about-webmention Marty wrote a great, thoughtful essay about some of the problems with webmention right now, and I agree with it. One of the many problems that’s emerging with webmention is it’s turned into a sort of Swiss … (twitter.com/_/status/1283827842065760257)
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[snarfed] my account's API approval was rejected, so either bridgy's twitter days are numbered, or i (we?) figure out a way to appeal and get approved, or something more drastic
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[snarfed] 🤷‍♂️
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aaronpk oh no
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aaronpk you couldn't get in under "Tools that help make Twitter better for the people who use it, like: BlockParty, TweetDelete, and Tokimeki Unfollow."
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[snarfed] good question, i applied a long time ago, when it wasn't yet clear that the process would be eventually required for everyone. i may not have tried hard enough
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[snarfed] from my twitter API dashboard: "We don’t currently allow you to appeal this decision. We are investigating options to allow people who feel they’ve been inappropriately rejected to appeal. Please stay informed for future updates."
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aaronpk huh
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lahacker awful
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[snarfed] i expect they'll open appeals before turning off API v1.1
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sknebel would think so. otherwise time to propose the completely new yg-bird with a suspiciously similar purpose
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[fluffy] Oh dear, I hope the legacy API sticks around for a while. A LOT of stuff is gonna break.
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[fluffy] I also hope that part of v2 is making “login with twitter” a thing that’s not just “establish a client connection with unfettered permissions.” I really would rather Authl NOT need to be a full “twitter app” for what it does.
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[fluffy] ... I wonder if twitter could be convinced to implement IndieAuth.
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[snarfed] eh it's not quite that bad. read vs write vs DM access is definitely a coarse set buckets, but still very useful, and definitely not unfettered
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[manton] On my first reading of the Twitter API v2.0 announcement… I’m guessing that “Basic” access will be a downgrade from what they offer currently in v1.1. More rate limits and less suitable for large apps. And then “Elevated” access probably requires extra approval and a paid subscription.
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[manton] In other words, just kind of seems like a continuation of the path they were already going down rather than a complete reinvention. But hard to say.
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[snarfed] huh, interesting. [manton] what makes you think the new approval process won't apply to all tiers? since they've already rolled it out, and require it for all new apps, it seems like it's here to stay, across the board
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[manton] [snarfed] Maybe so, I really don’t know. At the very least, “Elevated” will be a way to charge extra for fewer limits on API access. Maybe approval is the same across the board.
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[tantek] snarfed, do you have contacts there that you've asked? Or are you trying to deliberately avoid trying to get Bridgy special-cased?
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[snarfed] [tantek] neither, really. haven't really tried anything yet beyond just applying naively, years ago. happy to try contacts, just haven't yet
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[tantek] snarfed, cool. we can defer until you feel it is "necessary"
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[snarfed] if only i controlled the timeline ☹
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[tantek] that could be interpreted in a few ways lol
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[tantek] in my unending quest of brainstorming webmention filtering / ordering, since so much of the backlog is from Twitter, I'm considering another algorithm/heuristic of a "positive" signal. if a tweet reply is from an account that rel=me validates with an IndieWeb site, then that's more "real" than other twitter accounts
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aaronpk "verified" :D
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[tantek] exactly. rel=me verified
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[tantek] not sure what if any weight I should give a blue check
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aaronpk i like this definition of verified
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[tantek] I mean that's what mastodon used
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[tantek] green check == rel-me verified
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[tantek] wait does micro.blog also do that?
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[jgmac1106] Dark Clouds over Blue Skoes
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[jgmac1106] Skies*
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[tantek] are those new IndieWeb products / projects?
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[tantek] oblique comment on Twitter's BlueSky venture?
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[tantek] [manton], want pull requests for minor-ish improvements to your Micropub chapter?
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jacky2 hmm
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jacky2 I like that idea of verification
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jacky2 wonder if I could surface it on my site tho
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jacky2 to kind of encourage people to do it (how did their post get bumped to the top?)
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[manton] [tantek] Sure, thanks!
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[manton] Pull requests, email, chat, whatever works.
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[tantek] awesome!
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[chrisaldrich] [manton]++ for a lot more comprehensive book than I though you were going to be producing.
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Loqi [manton] has 20 karma in this channel over the last year (57 in all channels)
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[manton] [chrisaldrich] I originally was going to write a very short book, like a quick-start guide to microblogging, but it has turned into this huge thing.
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[tantek] oh boy, read-of and read-status are about to leak to print!
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aaronpk o.O
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[tantek] gRegorLove, [chrisaldrich] perhaps we need to do a popup on "read of" microformats properties to get this properly figured out / settled as compared to media in general, /watch /listen etc.?
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[tantek] is reading Manton's Micropub chapter
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[chrisaldrich] is reading it right now too...
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[tantek] [manton]++ overall this is a GREAT chapter. Excellent summary of "how did we get here" and all the examples help with the understanding A LOT.
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Loqi [manton] has 21 karma in this channel over the last year (58 in all channels)
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rebelle @jacky thanks for helping @Frosti last night with his idea, he is my kid! :)
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gRegorLove needs to catch up, been away from indieweb this last week
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GWG [tantek]: Propose it? We've had a few read sessions, but nothing has come ultimately
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GWG I am up for any session
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rebelle (ooo Twitter is not what I meant to link to) still have so much to learn :)
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gRegorLove I don't think I came out of the last /read session with much more clarity on https://gregorlove.com/2020/06/i-am-proposing-a-session/
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] I am proposing a session for IndieWebCamp West Coast: “Keeping Track of Books and Reading Progress.” I would like to discuss the use-cases and experiences of using our websites to: track books we want to read categorize (or “shelve”) books...
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gRegorLove I think read-of makes sense to identify the post type, similar to bookmark-of.
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gRegorLove I'm still leaning towards read-status probably not being necessary. If the post is "want to read..." that's a /want.
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gRegorLove If it's "Currently reading... on page x" that's a reading progress
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gRegorLove If it's "Finished reading..." that's also a progress post
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gRegorLove My / indiebookclub's current use of read-status blurs the lines between /want and progress
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[tantek] interesting, right now we don't record /watch or /listen posts until the person has finished consuming the media
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[manton] [tantek] Thanks!
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[tantek] I do like re-using some notion of progress, maybe taking inspiration from VTODO status
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gRegorLove Happy to have a session. Maybe next week?
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[tantek] that sounds good!
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[tantek] I suppose my contribution is that I've posted a variety of proto-read-of posts
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[tantek] and a few /watch posts
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[manton] I’ll try to join a read-of session too if I can… I was improving some book-related stuff this morning and also going down the rabbit hole of wondering if I need to use something like the ISBNdb API to get more book metadata.
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[manton] It’s simple for now, but Micro.blog now has a special page for books to link to. https://micro.blog/books/9780689845369
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gRegorLove ooh, nice
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[manton] So if you use IndieBookClub to post to Micro.blog, it automatically adds a link to that.
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sknebel book CSS: https://twitter.com/lynnandtonic/status/1283787866049376257
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@lynnandtonic Ok, one more of these! 📙 CSS coffee table book effect. Add a containing div around an image to turn it into a coffee table book. @CodePen: https://codepen.io/lynnandtonic/pen/JjGmrBz https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdDt-m2U0AEQwHy.png (twitter.com/_/status/1283787866049376257)
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sknebel (just popped up on twitter after I had seen "book" being mentioned here)
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aaronpk whoa
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aaronpk also that show is hilarious
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GWG Someone put it on the calendar?
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[tantek] that show?
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jacky lol the books thing I believe
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aaronpk the one on the "book"
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[tantek] alright, put that on the books
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jacky badum tiss
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jacky (or however that goes lol)
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gRegorLove instantrimshot.com
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jacky what's the "safest" way to stop publishing a feed?
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jacky I'm going to personally stop handling the rendering of ATOM and JSON feeds on my site (in favor of letting something else convert my hfeeds into those formats so it's less code for me to maintain)
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jacky the way a feed's currently requested is with a format modifier so I was thinking that doing a 422 / 400 might work
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aaronpk probably 404 or 410 are better since those indicate permanent errors
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jacky hmm bet
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[snarfed] hah, i got a 422 the other day and had to look up what it meant
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aaronpk a feed fetcher might see the 400 and treat it as a temporary error
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aaronpk does not remember 422
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jacky unprocessable entity
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jacky or something like that
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jacky thinks he'll lean towards a 404
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jacky this'll break things for those who aren't using my hfeed for now
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vilhalmer 410 might be more semantically correcy but I don't know that any feed reader would actually distinguish between the two
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vilhalmer since it acknowledges previous presence
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jacky _right_ - I want to avoid that tbh
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jacky to make it seem like it never existed (even though it did, I want it to be a hard failure to encourage rediscovery)
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vilhalmer fair enough
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jacky I will write about that though if it happens to come up and why
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jacky (largely because feed code is more work than I'd like to maintain for my site)
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jacky actually lemme write that _now_, lol
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jacky wow yeah that's like ~30% of my codebase lol
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vilhalmer wowee
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jacky tbh I think I might write something that I can have my site be subscribed to via websub and let _that_ do the feed building in a static-y way
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jacky eh
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jacky yikes this might shatter my websub setup lol
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jacky oh well (for now)
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jacky hm while I'm at it, I might as well remove this stuff for Twitter, with the intent page breaking and rel=me gone, this doesn't work
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[Jose_Leiva] What is FOSS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "FOSS" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "FOSS is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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jacky is avoiding triggering a auto-dfn
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jacky [Jose_Leiva]: it's a short way of saying Free and Open Source Software
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[Jose_Leiva] thanks, I just google it 😛
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jacky :)