#dev 2021-01-13

2021-01-13 UTC
jeremycherfas, [KevinMarks], [fluffy] and strugee joined the channel
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jacky ^ I feel like most people are talking about a library for webmention.io versus a library for interacting with a Webmention endpoint
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jacky which makes sense because the spec gives us 'half' of what one would need (a means of retrieval as well)
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jacky I've been thinking about if it'd be worth it to have endpoints also spit back out information about Webmentions tho
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jacky I feel like this might be a minority thought tho
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jacky yeah nothing on /Webmention or /Webmention-brainstorming
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aaronpk this sounds familiar
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jacky I might not be using the right words
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[KevinMarks] you mean like fluffy's client script?
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aaronpk if webmention endpoint services all used the same api for retrieving them it would be convenient
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jacky aaronpk: right
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aaronpk and now that we have a reader spec, i'd probably recommend using the same syntax
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jacky [KevinMarks]: no - like if the endpoint had a uniform way of retrieval, similar to how Micropub has `q=source` (in one way)
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jacky wait there's a spec for readers?
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jacky I have missed quite a bit
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jacky what are readers
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Loqi A reader in the context of the indieweb is the portion/feature integrated into an indieweb site that provides a way to read content from other indieweb sites and respond (like, comment, repost, etc) inline on the site itself directly while reading posts https://indieweb.org/readers
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aaronpk microsub?
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jacky oooh ofc
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jacky peeks again at /Microsub-spec
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jacky yeah tbh
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jacky actually
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jacky I'll write out some thoughts on the wiki
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aaronpk plus webmention.io's API already is jf2 like microsub
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jacky I forget the mime type for jf2
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jacky probably (application/json+jf2)
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aaronpk https://jf2.spec.indieweb.org/#iana
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jacky oh that's official,officla
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aaronpk well i don't think it's ever been submitted to iana
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jacky oh okay
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jacky eh screw them lol
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jacky okay boom https://indieweb.org/Webmention-brainstorming#fetching_stored_Webmentions
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aaronpk jacky++
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Loqi jacky has 29 karma in this channel over the last year (101 in all channels)
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jacky I hope that's an okay-ish approach
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jacky I didn't want to add _too_ much to it
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[Raphael_Luckom] when you say "a case where a site returns a specific feed for a particular reader (or a set of them)" -- are you referring to like, me returning HTML when I see a user-agent that wants to consume HTML, or does "reader" mean "permission set" like "all the mentions raph is allowed to see"?
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[tantek] oof I'm still trying to figure out how/what to store of the different aspects of a received webmention, since there's so many different kinds of data there (data received via the webmention, data *retrieved* via getting the source URL (including redirects), resources in that data like images, etc.)
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[tantek] having flashbacks to 2019 IWS conversations with [schmarty] and then with jacky near the middle/end of demo day
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[tantek] point being some of this data can be purged (it's "just" a cache) and some can't, so it lends itself to different storage policies
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aaronpk a lot of that is documented on post type discovery and h-entry now though
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[tantek] uh not really
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aaronpk and i already went through the exercise of storing the raw HTML to be able to re-parse them if i want, and it's just not practical, it ate up 1gb of storage real quick
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[Raphael_Luckom] interesting, I had considered going that way, now I probably won't
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[tantek] like the URL of the source vs redirected URL (at the time of first verification) vs raw HTML vs mf2json vs images
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aaronpk my approach is "store enough to show the response"
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[tantek] which feels more like a cache
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aaronpk which is better than not storing anything *ahem*
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[tantek] 🙈
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aaronpk considers turning off tantek's webmention.io account to light a certain fire
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[tantek] gets a glass to pour one out
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jacky I'm very open to ideas on this
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[tantek] I'm guessing it's still mostly Bridgy, Bridgy from Twitter, Bridgy from Twitter @-mentions (not replies)
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[tantek] jacky, the conclusion I came to was a layered approach, driven by what aaronpk said, enough to display
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[snarfed] actually no bridgy stopped seeing and sending @t spam mentions a while ago
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[snarfed] no clue why
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[snarfed] see https://brid.gy/twitter/t
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jacky [Raphael_Luckom]: I'll expand on that case but this is like if, in the flow of authorization to one's social reader of choice, that they can set a particular 'permission' so that when it uses that same token to talk to your Webmention endpoint, it'd give it a particular feed
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[tantek] uh, snarfed, that first tweet result doesn't mention me at all. what's going on
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jacky my thinking around this was making a difference for something like indiebook to only get notifications about books
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jacky but not anything else
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jacky it's a very specialized case, now that I think about it
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[tantek] https://twitter.com/lavigi/status/1349083737007546380
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@lavigi @trishankkarthik The Indie Web concept of a few years ago. "IndieWeb" https://indieweb.org (twitter.com/_/status/1349083737007546380)
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[snarfed] [tantek] it mentions indeweb.org, which is in your twitter profile
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[tantek] oh boy
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[tantek] now actually 🙈
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[snarfed] but doesn’t matter, that only makes it try to send to indieweb.org
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[tantek] more like a double 🤦‍♂️
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[snarfed] still follows basic mention rules etc. the goal really is to make silos do a bit of normal indieweb, not forward wms blindly
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[tantek] gets distracted rewriting his twitter profile
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jacky tbh one could just return a list of URLs (not even having to do all of the work on their server)
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jacky because then the client can handle the work of parsing the mf2 needed (and can even pass in extra data if things like authorization is needed)
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jacky [tantek]: re: presentation, your comments are making me think on it more and I think it'd be the above (like either Microsub timeline response: https://indieweb.org/Microsub-spec#Retrieve_Entries_in_a_Channel or just a list of URLs)
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jacky oh actually using the Microsub timeline flow, we can get free pagination
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jacky my ultimate goal with this is to 1: encourage more implementations to provide what people get from webmentions so that 2: we can normalize client libraries and make it easier to provide a feedback-centric interface
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jacky like it would be _amazing_ if we could have a community-backed implementation of a near-drop-in replacement for something like Disqus and it'd work regardless of the backend you use because it's the same interface
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aaronpk yeah i like that idea
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jacky haha
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aaronpk also i want fewer people relying on webmention.io
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jacky yup
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aaronpk in 2020 i worked on getting the indiewebcamp finances moved out of my LLC, time to de-aaronpk more things around here
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jacky plurality++
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Loqi plurality has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (8 in all channels)
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jacky soon come tbh
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jacky I really think that this would make it easier to pull away from wm.io
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jacky _and_ convince more JAMstack-y folks to try it out with their own systems (like actually attempting to implement Webmention all of the way through)
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aaronpk the fact that so many people have been writing posts about how to get webmentions on their websites means that's definitely a good next place to start
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aaronpk those posts should start out with "find (or build) something to receive webmentions" instead of "go sign up at webmention.io"
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jacky yup!
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[tantek] jacky, you're connecting the retrieval of webmention information with the reader use-case is exactly the same connection I made when for the "aggregation" axis of IndieMark when I last thought that through many years ago, note brainstormed "Levels" 5-6,6 (I'm not sure if those were two options for 6 or a typo for 6,7) https://indieweb.org/IndieMark#aggregation
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[tantek] it's all part of "getting & storing other people's stuff"
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[tantek] which I summarized as "aggregating" as an umbrella term
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[tantek] note this is written from a developer perspective, and the levels are supposed to be increasing in both relative difficulty, and you're supposed to be able to use at least some of what you built for earlier levels as building blocks to build the higher levels
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[tantek] though the *result* of supporting each consecutive level of an axis is a user-visible benefit on your site
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[tantek] retrieving, storing, and *displaying* other people's stuff
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[tantek] I still think that "area" is one of the biggest challenges to get "right" both in terms of protocols, and more importantly social policies
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[KevinMarks] I tried to make mention.tech match webmention.io by returning jf2 and got fluffy's script to work with it, but we could iterate on that to make it more formal
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[KevinMarks] https://tumblelog.xyz/ uses it
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Loqi Tumble log like it’s 2005
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[KevinMarks] http://mention.tech/listmentions?target=https%3A%2F%2Ftumblelog.xyz&json=on
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[Raphael_Luckom] thanks jacky, that makes sense
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jacky [tantek]: aggregation is a good term!
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@SiegfriedEhret ↩️ Maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webmention ? (twitter.com/_/status/1349245564676935680)
[jeremycherfas], jeremycherfas, [chrisaldrich], [fluffy], hoschi, nickodd, KartikPrabhu, schmudde, swentel, sebbu, jeremych_, jeremy, [KevinMarks], ShadowKyogre, [schmarty], [Raphael_Luckom], jolvera and [tantek] joined the channel; ShadowKyogre left the channel
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] you may have opinions on this issue regarding how to make it explicit that hidden content (like in summary/details) should still be found via Fragmentions (and find in browser UI etc.) https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5595
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[tantek] (FWIW I don't think CSS is the right way to do it, but it is a problem worth solving IMO)
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[KevinMarks] I will have a look. Its an issue with regular fragment id's inside details too
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[tantek] that's a good point
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[KevinMarks] If we do want to expand details to a tabbed ui model, we need to think about these kinds of state
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[tantek] agreed
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KartikPrabhu I have a fragmention-aware expandable element on my site
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KartikPrabhu [tantek], [KevinMarks] see: https://www.kartikprabhu.com/papers#the%20angular%20momentum
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KartikPrabhu I think the scrolling seems to be a bit broken so it over scrolls, but the expandable element does expand if you link to something inside it with fragmention
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[tantek] wow KartikPrabhu! can you add that as an example to that issue ^ ? and feel free to be explicit that you are supporting Fragmentions (link to spec) which predate ScrollToTextFragment
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[tantek] because too many people have now *only* heard of ScrollToTextFragment
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KartikPrabhu that issue is discussing something about "search" no?
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jacky grumbles against fragmentions
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KartikPrabhu fragmentions are nice jacky
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jacky grumbles louder
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jacky lol
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jacky I feel like it clutters the heck out of a URL
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aaronpk the url is just the mechanism for sending the webmention
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jacky ah I should be more clear - the whole hash-y thing in the URL is what throws me off
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jacky ah I should be more clear - the whole hash-y thing in the URL is what throws me off
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jacky but I think I also don't use it a lot so it's not stuck on me
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jacky chrome-only stuff
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KartikPrabhu it works on firefox too which is what I use
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KartikPrabhu it does need an external JS on the page though
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@bmann I'm slowly having more Protocols > Products discussions, which needs to turn into a blog post at some point. Some of the pieces are there, and "defacto" standards like a markdown file with simple YAML front matter. But at a meta layer, Webmentions or Web Annotations link across (twitter.com/_/status/1349434667334725633)
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@ochtendgrijs ↩️ (Eigen website, die dankzij Webmention sowieso gewoon met andere sites kan communiceren. Kan andere[n hun compatibele] blogposts liken, beantwoorden en reposten dat het een lieve lust is, en omgekeerd, zonder dat daar een centrale partij aan te pas komt.) (twitter.com/_/status/1349436805683281920)
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@bhumi1102 Testing webmentions to this article http://ow.ly/3cPq50D7Q9L (twitter.com/_/status/1349452764775129093)
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lahacker aaronpk snarfed https://github.com/angelogladding/WebExtension-IndieAuth works for me (custom server) and maxwelljoslyn (indieauth.com)
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lahacker https://github.com/canopy/liana shows it in a working extension
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[snarfed] lahacker++ thanks!
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Loqi lahacker has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (7 in all channels)
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[snarfed] any chance you could extend it to expose the auth code? i need to verify on the server side
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lahacker yeah it grabs an access token in the end
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lahacker https://github.com/angelogladding/WebExtension-IndieAuth#user-data
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[snarfed] …
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Loqi [angelogladding] WebExtension-IndieAuth: WebExtension support for IndieAuth sign in
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[snarfed] right, but i’d need the auth code, not the access token
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lahacker oh.. for what?
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[snarfed] like i said, i need to verify the auth code on the server side
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[snarfed] my backend needs to verify that its client is authed for a given domain
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lahacker is that part of the spec?
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[snarfed] got me
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[snarfed] totally ok if it’s beyond what you plan to do
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lahacker so you want this code in the local storage? https://github.com/angelogladding/WebExtension-IndieAuth/blob/main/IndieAuth.js#L96
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[snarfed] yup
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lahacker i'd just like to know if i should be doing something with it in my server code
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[snarfed] oh no not necessarily. use case dependent