#dev 2021-05-01

2021-05-01 UTC
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sparseMatrix still getting that bad gateway from ngnix at login, even though I've fixed up the hcard
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sparseMatrix hcard is at www.code4peeps.life/hcard-plus.html
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jacky so the Wiki uses indielogin.com (IIRC) and from your site, you don't show any info to help kick off /Web_sign-in
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jacky https://indielogin.com/auth?me=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.code4peeps.life%2F&client_id=https%3A%2F%2Findielogin.com%2F&redirect_uri=https%3A%2F%2Findielogin.com%2Fdemo&state=8fca36b15efc86b515558637
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jacky what is Web sign-in
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Loqi Web sign-in is signing in to websites using your personal web address (without having to use your e-mail address) https://indieweb.org/Web_sign-in
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sparseMatrix @jackie I confess I'm uncertain what more I need to do, having met the requirements of the various guides on the wiki
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sparseMatrix I've carried on with indiewebify.me all the way through to the h-entry page
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aaronpk wait, where are you seeing the bad gateway error?
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aaronpk on indielogin.com?
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sparseMatrix sso.indielogin.com
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aaronpk weird, you shouldn’t really have been able to notice that domain
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aaronpk i just tried loggingg in to the wiki and it worked fine
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aaronpk what happens if you try logging in to the demo at indielogin.com?
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aaronpk the thing on the home page there
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sparseMatrix it takes me to another login page, slightly different format, same form contents, more or less
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aaronpk you should eventually see “successfully logged in” or something
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sparseMatrix whattya know, it worked that time
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sparseMatrix I must've had something stale in the browser
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jacky happens :)
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jacky my fault, also, for being a bit confusing there - probably just threw a bunch of jargon
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aaronpk if that works and the wiki login doesn’t work then something is really wrong on my side
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Loqi yea!
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sparseMatrix I can also report a successful login to the wiki
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sparseMatrix Thanks Y'all :)
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aaronpk excellent
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sparseMatrix I'm kinda set back on my bigger project though
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aaronpk must have been gremlins
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sparseMatrix I was leveraging the fact that my dinky python program saves everything as markdown
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sparseMatrix without github pages in the mix, there isn't a lot there to leverage
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sparseMatrix I'll need to do something about exporting as html I reckon.
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aaronpk you can still host on github pages, just point a real domain to it
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sparseMatrix Its still a quite usefull tool for anyone publishing on github pages I reckon
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sparseMatrix yeah there is that, I forgot about that
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sparseMatrix seems kinda meh, for me at least
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sparseMatrix I'll do something that makes me grin, curve balls are for hittin'
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sparseMatrix I just aint got to the 'what' part yet
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[KevinMarks] It is fairly straightforward to get a domain set up there, I've done that for a few random ones eg https://ceophie.com/
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sparseMatrix Yeah, no doubt - truth is, I'm not so on fire to use that myself, if I don't have to
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sparseMatrix and in any case, I still have to own a domain to do it
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sparseMatrix at least, to do it *properly*
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sparseMatrix but not everyone is so demanding
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sparseMatrix in fact I think there's a lot of people who would be served by easy publishing there
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sparseMatrix well served *
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sparseMatrix writing helps me work all this kinda stuff out, and I have some to do :)
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sparseMatrix I really appreciate y'alls support, thanks a heap and a stack
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[KevinMarks] The more tools people have to choose from the better
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sparseMatrix Yeah you are right
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sparseMatrix maybe I will modify what I've got so I can toggle it to export to html in a useful way
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sparseMatrix I gotta say I kinda like the look of publ though...
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sparseMatrix Idk; I actually do enjoy my own cooking :)
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[schmarty] so the tor .onion V2 system has been around for more than 15 years, and had a multi-year timeline for the switch to V3. i feel like there are plenty of folks who abandon or move domains on a vastly more frequent basis.
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aaronpk Sure but an individual choosing to abandon their domain is very different from the entire domain system being ripped out from under everyone
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[schmarty] lots of folks also _lose_ domains for reasons they didn't choose
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aaronpk even IPv4 vs IPv6 recognized it would be impossible to just do a cutover
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aaronpk again "lots" is different from literally everyone
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[schmarty] "literally everyone" running a V2 onion service is probably smaller than "lots" imo
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aaronpk even if that's true it doesn't build confidence in the system or the maintainers of the system
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[schmarty] 15 years is a lot longer than many donuts TLDs have been around
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[schmarty] my point is that, for an individual, this isn't more complicated than any /migration
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[schmarty] it's something we don't shame individuals for, and i don't see a need to doomsay about it
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[schmarty] which is a long defensive way of saying i'm gonna update my .onion site mirror to V3 this weekend 😂
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aaronpk there's no doomsaying here, my only point is that a system that omits okay with abandoning all its identifiers shouldn't be relied on as a form of identity
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aaronpk s/omits/is
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aaronpk aggressive autocorrect fail
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[schmarty] afaik we don't have an #indieweb-philosophy this has me thinking in that direction 😂
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[schmarty] *but this
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sparseMatrix DNS worries me; it's an old technology with a lot of attack surface that only scales well with more hardware
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[schmarty] i've had different domains over time and likely will someday change again. it's not practical to treat a domain name as a single unchanging exclusive identity.
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sparseMatrix I've been trying to come up with something better for a good 25 years
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sparseMatrix schmarty: +1
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aaronpk [schmarty]: Emphasis on *system*, I'm not expressing any opinions about individuals' choices
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sparseMatrix my average period of domain ownership is about 18 months
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[schmarty] so i consider likely longevity of a domain to be a trade-off that an individual has to balance against other costs and benefits
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sparseMatrix I had middleware.systems; it was great while I was doing middleware
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aaronpk I'm saying if the system decides to get rid of all past identifiers then it shouldn't be relied on as an identifier
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[schmarty] "shouldn't" as in SHOULD NOT? 😂
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aaronpk There's plenty of other perfectly fine uses of a system like that, but identity isn't one of them
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[schmarty] i feel like you and i are weighing different things with the word "identity" in this case.
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aaronpk maybe. It's a big space
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sparseMatrix I like to think identity is immutable
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sparseMatrix the alternative is that identity is necessarily non-unique and impermanent
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[schmarty] i like to think identity is necessarily non-unique and impermanent 😜
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sparseMatrix that said, you guys don't so much use the domain as the identity; it's more of a partial tag to some identity information that is more or less immutable
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sparseMatrix e.g., I could ditch the domain I just bought, get a different one, and rehost my h-card content on the new one - my identity would not change
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sparseMatrix only the hosting arrangements thereto
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aaronpk sort of
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jjuran I thought the main selling point of .onion addresses is anonymity
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aaronpk anyone consuming your identity info would have no reason to believe that the same h-card data at one domain is from the same as another domain
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aaronpk in other words you’re impersonating yourself
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sparseMatrix well it's clearly illustrated that if I use only my domain name, I don't get authenticated; but if I use the URL domainname/hcard-plus.html, then I get authenticated
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aaronpk so a consumer has to draw a line somewhere of where they trust
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aaronpk and that line is the domain
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sparseMatrix that's policy though, not technology
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aaronpk so if you put an h-card at domain1 and the same h-card at domain2, consumers will see those as two different identities
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aaronpk because there’s no reason or way to believe they are the same
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sparseMatrix that's a bug, not a feature
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aaronpk it’s neither
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sparseMatrix do tell :D
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aaronpk if you want to get around that problem, you can add more layers
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aaronpk e.g. sign something with a key and host it at both URLs
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sparseMatrix right - suppose they match byte for byte, bit for bit, right down to the photo and the compressed CV stored in a url
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aaronpk byte for byte matching doesn’t work unless there’s a signature
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aaronpk and you can make up whatever spec you want to make that happen
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sparseMatrix sure
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aaronpk but that’s now a layer up from the domain
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sparseMatrix the compressed CV would work as a signature
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sparseMatrix https://tinyurl.com/f6aww8we
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sparseMatrix that's my resume
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sparseMatrix it is truly serverless
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sparseMatrix stored in it's own link :)
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sparseMatrix the tiny url is merely a convenience
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jjuran clever :-)
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sparseMatrix the third party decompression acts almost like an unconscious notary
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sparseMatrix yeah I wish I'd thought of it lol
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sparseMatrix anyway guys I don't mean to hijack your discussion, it just happened to fall right along lines which I was already thinking
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sparseMatrix on a different note
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sparseMatrix I think probably what I need to do is to write a new program, complimentary to my current one, which is 'single user'
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sparseMatrix it will share the same set of folders of markown and media files
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sparseMatrix it will listen for requests on the public interface, as opposed to localhost; and render requested markdown as html on the fly, more or less as the current program does, except the client will be 'offsite', and the content will be wrapped in a different html prologue/epilogue, and have no provisions for editing.
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sparseMatrix if you're curious, the current program is called 'writer' (https://github.com/JamesStallings/writer.git)
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sparseMatrix it's about 20% CSS heh
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sparseMatrix there is a html export method there, but it is a relic and is nonfunctional
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Poorchop is there a list of server software out there like webmention.io for running locally
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Poorchop something that does the heavy lifting of asynchronously parsing incoming mentions and providing an RSS feed and an API for me to use to retrieve my mentions
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jacky there's some options listed on https://indieweb.org/Webmention as services
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jacky for example https://indieweb.org/stapibas
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sparseMatrix Almost have the public facing piece coded. I just need to prop it up against a wsgi service so I don't have to listen to flask howl about security. I'm out for a sleep y'all, I be back bright and early in the morning.
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sparseMatrix o/
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Poorchop thanks
[chrisaldrich], jacky, sknebel, Zegnat, jjuran, rhiaro, oenone, kiero, tinfoil-hat_, blueyed, raucao, [tw2113_Slack_] and tomlarkworthy joined the channel
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tomlarkworthy DNS is worse for identity hosting, if you don't pay the *rent*, someone takes it from you and gives it to someone else who can then impersonate you. At least the onion migration is a 1 way street for *everyone*
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tomlarkworthy that is equivalently a systemic issue of the way DNS is designed and governed.
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[KevinMarks] Careful what you wish for http://epeus.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-antifragility-of-web.html
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@edent It's annoying that big sites like @techcrunch don't support pingbacks / WebMentions. But all the spam sites which rip off their content do! So I've now got a lot of spam to clean up on my blog. (twitter.com/_/status/1388392551430950918)
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[tantek] ^ looks like it came from the WordPress plugin (not certain). GWG can you confirm if the examples shown there are Pingbacks or Webmentions by visual inspection? Looks like a few pingbacks and one webmention from my cursory review.
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petermolnar The aspect of a domain is rented has always bothered me: there are systems and people who could take it away from me, either by mistake, force, lawsuit, etc. or simply because my credit card has expired and I forgot about it. How can anyone treat that has a hard identity?
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petermolnar re .onion: just to put things in place: TLDs can disappear, and break things: with custom TLDs, this is not even _that_ rare; with country TLDs is has happened, and it will happen The .onion v2 is essentially the same as a TLD deprecation.
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[KevinMarks] Well, it's the worst identity we have, apart from the alternatives.
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[tantek] it's kinda the best / most robust practical system to date. even better than phone numbers (which can be simjacked)
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[tantek] what is design
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Loqi Design is a catchall term used to refer to everything that affects users about a page/site including: Graphic design (including site icon) User interface design (UI design) User experience (UX) Information architecture (IA) URL design https://indieweb.org/design
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[tantek] design << Opportunities for IndieWeb designs to be better than silos, even better than Apple these days: 2019-05-08 Fast Company: [https://www.fastcompany.com/90338379/i-wrote-the-book-on-user-friendly-design-what-i-see-today-horrifies-me I wrote the book on user-friendly design. What I see today horrifies me]
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Loqi ok, I added "Opportunities for IndieWeb designs to be better than silos, even better than Apple these days: 2019-05-08 Fast Company: [https://www.fastcompany.com/90338379/i-wrote-the-book-on-user-friendly-design-what-i-see-today-horrifies-me I wrote the book on user-friendly design. What I see today horrifies me]" to the "See Also" section of /design https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=75545&oldid=74688
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petermolnar > it's kinda the best / most robust practical system to date - I was not challenging that; I agree. However, from the robustness and identity perspective, I'm failing to see why an ordinary, plain web TLD is so much better, than a .onion.
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petermolnar in a comparison of historical gTLDs vs [ ccTLD (political issues) or custom TLD (random issues) or .onion (v2 vs v3) ] I'd be on the historical gTLD side even with all the rental problems
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petermolnar but when domain covers country level TLDs which has disappeared/changed in the past, .eu which has the whole brexit issue, or .myuniqueTLD which lived 3 months, it feels like pointing fingers at .onion for a change like v2 to v3 is invalid.
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petermolnar plus there's price fluctuation of custom TLDs
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petermolnar (sorry for my semi-broken English, my brain is not ready yet :( )
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sparseMatrix o/
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sparseMatrix question: on the wiki, is their a list of user/developers and their projects?
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sparseMatrix *is there
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sparseMatrix needs additional caffiene units
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sparseMatrix ignore that last question, I found something similar
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sparseMatrix awesome stuff
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sparseMatrix https://indieweb.org/User:Jamesstallings.code4peeps.life
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sparseMatrix question: must a website be static to be a part of the indieweb? I'm kinda getting that feeling, as in a python script that output HTML programatically on-the-fly is probably not acceptable
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sparseMatrix I think I read somewhere 'if you cant 'curl' it, it doesn't count'
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aaronpk The can you curl it issue is about whether the site is rendered in the browser with JS vs on the server
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aaronpk Thinking back to the layer idea, there's a line drawn which is HTML over HTTP. Whatever it takes to create and deliver that HTML doesn't matter because HTML over HTTP is the interop layer
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aaronpk but if you send JS over HTTP and make the client render the HTML by executing javascript you've violated that layer and broken interop
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sparseMatrix so the main thing is that the browser needs to do the rendering. If I ship some javascript that fetches something and hands it off to the browser, then that should be fine, so long as it's just doing something fetchy and curl-like
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[KevinMarks] No, it's more that your site should deliver primarily html, with js to decorate it, so if the js fails there's still something there.
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[KevinMarks] Especially if you are expecting to send webmentions and have receivers understand the post, as they aren't likely to be able to run a full headless browser to get your page
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sparseMatrix Ok I'll have to learn more about the webmentions and the like
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sparseMatrix this is a weird question, and this may not be the place for it - but I presently have lighttpd running, serving static files using a couple vhosts. is there a way to hand off the request for a specific vhost to a service other than lighttpd? it sounds like I'm trying to awkwardly do wsgi almost
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sparseMatrix maybe I just need to forgo lighttpd and let my custom service own it all
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aaronpk sounds like a reverse proxy is what you're loooking for
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sknebel afaik "mod_proxy" for lighthttpd
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sknebel ah yeah https://redmine.lighttpd.net/projects/1/wiki/Docs_ModProxy
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sknebel I also do python (using nginx, but same principle applies) with the webserver proxying to a uwsgi server that runs my website code
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[fluffy] @sparsematrix there’s plenty of accepted stuff in indieweb that uses client-side rendering, such as webmention.js. The main consideration is that any interop needs to be rendered server-side. And server-side rendering is just better practice anyway for a bunch of reasons.
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[fluffy] So like. Feeds, cards, entries: should all be server side.
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[fluffy] Definitely avoid building things like a “single-page application.” If you want SPA features you can add that incrementally using JavaScript additions.
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[fluffy] But if you can’t read the site in lynx or w3m then neither can people’s social readers or webmention endpoints.
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paul3 micropub.rocks is broken
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paul3 oh it works again
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aaronpk how so?
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paul3 It's my fault.
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sparseMatrix thsnks for the legwork sknebel :)
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sparseMatrix hey, cool
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sparseMatrix I got stumped, took a nap, got up and fixed the problem (whatever it was) lol
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sparseMatrix in any case vhosts and reverse proxy up and a cookin'
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sparseMatrix ...on lighttpd
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sparseMatrix see if you can hit http://reader.code4peeps.life/reader/index.md and share my hootage
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sparseMatrix the reader code is basically a stripped-down version of the writer code I used to compose the blog last year, but made such that it is read+render only
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sparseMatrix once I get the reader component documented and pushed to a github repository, I'll have a complimentary pair of those 'cook what you like to eat' projects I can post up on the wiki
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sparseMatrix fun and good times 4 all
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[schmarty] whewww okay! i leaned into my weekend project of updating my tor site to a V3 onion! with only an hour or two of unrelated fussing ("oh wow is this server really on ubuntu 14.04? i should really upgrade. oh no what i have i broken.")
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[schmarty] it is now here: http://martymcgfuraocsgy2a25btl5srhifcdud6m4eiphz2mq6fafttwh7qd.onion/
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sknebel Marty McGee Furao ;)
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[schmarty] 8 letters of vanity URL in there thanks to https://github.com/cathugger/mkp224o
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[schmarty] skenebel: i like to read it as "Marty McG fur AOC" 😂
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[schmarty] the generator found another matching one but this one made me laugh so it won.
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[schmarty] oh heck yeah furão is Portuguese for ferret? that rules.
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[schmarty] gonna take a break and then blog this up.
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sparseMatrix dig it: https://indieweb.org/projects#read.2Fwrite_web:_web_for_humans
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sparseMatrix how do ya like me now :p
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Poorchop isn't tor a NSA honeypot
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sparseMatrix makes a fresh tinfoil hat
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sparseMatrix @Poorchop is a clawhammer used for driving nails, or pulling them?
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sparseMatrix is tommorris around? author of mf2py?
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