#dev 2021-05-24

2021-05-24 UTC
jeremycherfas, jeremych-, [chrisaldrich], [KevinMarks], jjuran and IWSlackGateway3 joined the channel
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Zegnat I missed IndieAuth chatter :o
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Zegnat But I am always up for an IndieAuth pop-up!
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GWG Zegnat: Up for facilitating?
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Zegnat GWG: eeh, maybe? Not something I can commit to today though, as my life schedule is a little in flux
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GWG Zegnat: I have had luck lately asking. Got two pop-ups on
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petermolnar I think the https://indieweb.org/Instagram page is quite outdata. I tried instaport.me and freedom.io <http://www.freedom.io/> that are linked from there, and both seem to have disappeared. If anyone wants to do some wiki weeding, please don't hesitate.
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jacky I guess 'defaulting' to https://indieauth.com is a no-no ;)
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jacky when attempting to resolve one's identity for self
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jacky s/self$/stuff$/
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aaronpk please don't :)
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jacky lol can't lie, I did initially but I'm thinking about making it a hard failure
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jacky the thing with lighthouse is that I want people to define the endpoints to handle that flow so it's constrained to what those services deemed permissible
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jacky but using that above would invite anyone who uses those services - no bueno
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[tantek] !tell oodani you mentioned "common pattern", when you see such things as "common", do you have example links to demonstrate the pattern?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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barnabywalters RE ^^^, I encourage anyone with a feed on their website to add themselves as an example to https://indieweb.org/feed (which bizarrely only has four indieweb examples on)
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barnabywalters I may need to finally implement asyncronous webmention sending for my articles. I’m currently editing an article with almost 2500 links in, and the first time around, it took a very long time to attempt sending all the webmentions
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barnabywalters (un?)fortunately my article editing process doesn’t re-send webmentions on a update. It totally should, but I’m happy leaving it “broken” for the moment
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[tantek] lazy webmention sending of updated posts sounds totally fine
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jacky re: examples, wouldn't it be best if we had some sort of a 'template' site that shows the examples rendered vs linking to live examples?
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jacky it'd be a bit easier to maintain and we could even run some tests against them over time
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[tantek] There's not enough of a pattern of examples to even create a template!
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[tantek] in general, I'm very skeptical of "common" absent actual links / crawls
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[tantek] I mean actually I'm very skeptical of a "pattern" absent actual links / crawls
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[tantek] jacky, there's also competing desires to make it super easy to add a "minimal" example, while also encouraging (incrementally) adding more detailed information about the example, including analysis, markup specific etc.
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[tantek] it's not something that "templates" very well (as compared to a freeform nested list item)
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barnabywalters anecdotally, I agree with oodani’s impression that it’s common for homepage feeds to present long-form articles as summaries or even only titles
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barnabywalters but I agree that it needs more documentation, hence encouraging people to add their examples
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jacky I say 'template' site like how every Wordpress theme has a 'test site' that you can see how things are rendered on it
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[tantek] oooh that makes a lot more sense jacky!
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[tantek] aaronpk, have you seen this? definitely curious of your opinion of it and what overlaps if any it has with IndieAuth https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Add-ons/WebExtensions/API/identity
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aaronpk this looks familiar...
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barnabywalters talking of feeds and updating, has anyone ever seen feeds where content is ordered by date updated rather than date published? I was thinking about making this possible on my website, so that I can have e.g. an old article which I’ve recently updated jump to to the top of the feed again
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barnabywalters I guess activitystream’s approach of treating verbs and objects separately is one way to achieve this, but the added indirection is too annoying for simple web publishing IMO
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[KevinMarks] feed readers tend to do that
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[tantek] barnabywalters agreed that "the added indirection is too annoying for simple web publishing"
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] by "ever seen feeds where", I think barnabywalters meant *feed files* not feed UX
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barnabywalters yeah, I briefly used the AS storage model for my site years ago. dropped it very quickly
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barnabywalters well I’m mostly talking about things like homepage feeds, so personal site UX, not reader UX
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barnabywalters although reader UX is interesting too, as readers could easily give users choices about how to order posts
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aaronpk the only interesting thing about my home page is the "conference mode" where i can switch it to show only posts with certain tags
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barnabywalters for my personal site, I’m thinking about defaulting to ordering by date published, but having a per-post option to instead order that post by it’s date updated, so I can decide on a post-by-post basis if I want that exception to apply
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aaronpk interesting
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[tantek] what is conference mode
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Loqi conference mode is when you make your home page temporarily show different content than normal during an event, such as showing only posts with the conference's hashtag https://indieweb.org/conference_mode
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aaronpk i feel like this discussion about how you notify subscribers of updated posts has come up several times in the past, but never with a conclusive answer
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[tantek] what is recently updated
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "recently updated" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "recently updated is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] hmm, I thought we did discuss how sometimes sites will show a sidebar module of "recently updated" articles for this very reason, but I don't know of a specific example offhand
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aaronpk a push-based delivery protocol like activitypub makes it very easy, but a feed-based one is not as straightforward
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aaronpk [tantek]: possibly! it's come up several times all with various solutions proposed/demonstrated, but I don't think any one in particular has "stuck"
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[chee] i think i would publish a little note post saying "i updated my old post about what rabbits eat to include new information" and a link to my old post
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[tantek] ^ that's a good practice too
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barnabywalters yeah I like [tantek]’s suggestion of a more declarative approach over ephemeral on-the-wire only push approaches
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[tantek] what chee said
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barnabywalters [chee]: yeah I’ve done similar things a few times in the past, it can definitely be a good approach
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[tantek] we have discussed it in the context of the Gardens & Streams stuff
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[tantek] e.g. wikis literally have a Recent Changes feed for this very reason
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[tantek] what is recent changes
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Loqi recent changes is a stream of updated posts or pages from a site, ordered by most recently updated first, commonly known from wikis like the IndieWeb https://indieweb.org/Special:RecentChanges page https://indieweb.org/recent_changes
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aaronpk depends on whether you want a UX more like slack and discourse where the posts update inline
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[tantek] there we go!
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[tantek] recently updated is /recent_changes
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Loqi ok
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barnabywalters I actually have something similar in my post editing UI, but for syndication rather than making update notification posts on my own site
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[tantek] barnabywalters take a look ^ and maybe add a brainstorming section there with your thoughts
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barnabywalters although I’m not sure whether it still works or not since I switched to using bridgy for posse…
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[chee] yeah, it definitely needs to be an explicit user action when it happens
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[chee] if i notice a typo in some post from 2 years ago, i do not want it hitting the top of my feed ^_^
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[chee] i say definitely, i mean: if you're bringing them to the top of the feed. a "recent changes" sidebar could contain that kind of info
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barnabywalters yeah maybe I’ll just make a little recent changes sidebar feed on my site
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barnabywalters hmm I wonder if something like a u-recent-changes property for h-feed would be justified, which could either be a URL or an embedded h-feed
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barnabywalters which would allow readers to auto-discover and follow recent changes to a given feed
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[tantek] re: "typo in some post" — I think that's what the "minor edit" feature in Wikipedia edits is for
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[tantek] which makes me wonder, would that be useful as a Micropub extension?
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barnabywalters yeah, a minor edit like that is something which I wouldn’t do the manual ordering override for, but would probably show in a recent changes feed
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[tantek] ^ curious aaronpk if you've ever come across that proposal, because now that's a use-case (avoiding updated posts coming up in a "Recent Changes" feed)
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barnabywalters oh yeah that’s a good idea
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[tantek] or being able to filter them in/out
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[tantek] which also makes me wonder how to store that in the entry
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[tantek] do we need two updated dates?
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[tantek] or rather a separate "minorly updated" date
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barnabywalters something like last update and last minor update?
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[tantek] sure, I mean we have dt-updated now
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[tantek] which would literally have to keep meaning "any update"
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[tantek] so maybe the other way around "nontrivial-updated" or some variant
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barnabywalters I wonder if this is something which justifies a new mf property though. are these different datetimes really data which is likely to reach or be meaningful to a user?
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barnabywalters I see them more as being internal properties which determine how and where a site displays content
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barnabywalters at least, that’s how I’d forsee using them
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aaronpk hmm a "minor edit" flag in the micropub edit request could be handy for that
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aaronpk I think I agree a new mf2 property isn't necessary tho since it probably wouldn't make sense to show people two updated dates
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[tantek] yeah I'm unsure too
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barnabywalters I don’t remember ever having seen user-facing “last notable update” data
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aaronpk That said, I would say I have seen posts get minor updates and not show an updated date, whereas a major update would then show the updated date
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[tantek] barnabywalters, check the same place I suggested, Wikipedia pages
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[tantek] ^ that's the "non-trivial-updated" date I'm talking about, and yes, if it's visible content that only changes for a "major update" then that's proof of the semantic for such a property
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aaronpk I'm thinking blog posts that get minor fixes shortly after they're published vs a few months later get updated with more substantial changes
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GWG barnabywalters: Re updated, I have a /updated off my root that shows a feed ordered by last updated date
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barnabywalters looking at a WP page where the last update was a minor edit, the Last Updated date on the WP page itself shows the date of the minor edit
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barnabywalters specifically, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurorack “This page was last edited on 5 April 2021, at 18:33 (UTC).” which was a minor edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eurorack&action=history)
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GWG barnabywalters: This thread inspired me to make a note... https://github.com/dshanske/tempus-fugit/issues/3
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Loqi [dshanske] #3 Add Minor Update flag
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aaronpk <3 Eurorack
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barnabywalters heh, it’s the one substantial WP page I wrote which is still around, and typically the first place I look for examples like this
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barnabywalters GWG: cool! can you add your /updated feed as an example to /recent_changes? and maybe note it on /feed too?
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GWG I thought I'd put it somewhere in the wiki
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GWG I also have /oldest, /random, and such
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barnabywalters oh cool!
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barnabywalters those are fun
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GWG barnabywalters: I meant to add /popular for posts that have the most comments.
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barnabywalters those are all really fun examples for /feed! it shows off some of the diversity of feed possibilities outside regular reverse-chronological homepage feeds
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GWG barnabywalters: All my date based archive feeds are in chronological order
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GWG Like /2021
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GWG I also support /onthisday and /thisweek, which are in reverse chronological order, I believe
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[KevinMarks] One I have seen quite often is a recently commented on feed or sidebar
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[Murray] barnabywalters: my review feeds all work by date updated, because quite a few of the items in them are collections themselves. For example, the current first card has a post date back in April, but that was for season one; I've since finished season two, so that bumped it back up the feed (see: https://theadhocracy.co.uk/reviews/) Not sure how relevant that is to what you were looking for, but it fits 😄
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barnabywalters ooh nice looking site [Murray]!
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[Murray] thanks 😊
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[tantek] block << Difference between [[mute]] and block: Hiding abuse doesn't make it stop. Thread: https://twitter.com/mathcolorstrees/status/1396271456393175041
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@mathcolorstrees Got a story for you. Years ago when I was a new PhD grad working at Twitter, there was a director of product who had strong ideas about how to solve the abuse and harassment problem on Twitter. (twitter.com/_/status/1396271456393175041)
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Loqi ok, I added "Difference between [[mute]] and block: Hiding abuse doesn't make it stop. Thread: https://twitter.com/mathcolorstrees/status/1396271456393175041" to the "See Also" section of /block https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=75867&oldid=74136
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