#dev 2021-10-13
2021-10-13 UTC
# 
angelo when i send a "content distribution request" from hub to subscriber it says it "MUST contain the full contents of the topic URL". say we're talking about a subscription to my homepage. what should i respond with? Content-Type: text/html and a full copy of my homepage? or just the h-feed from the homepage? could it be text/mf2+html and the mf2json of my homepage?
# angelo and should i file an issue for a typo? the "Section 3" in https://www.w3.org/TR/websub/#content-distribution should say "Section 4".
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[fluffy] Generally I think it’s fine to only include the items that have been updated since the last content distribution, and also there’s some situations where you might want to do a ‘thin ping’ (with no content attachment at all) instead (and I think subscribers are supposed to interpret an empty body as a ‘hey maybe go fetch the URL now’ indication).
# [fluffy] ah no WebSub doesn’t specify thin pings, which came up in this conversation: https://github.com/sknebel/AutoAuth/issues/8
# [fluffy] The main purported benefit to WebSub is that push can be more efficient than polling in high-traffic scenarios but IMO that’s overoptimizing the wrong parts of the stack. IMO it’s generally more universally beneficial to make the publishing end of things more efficient on the polls (via e.g. caching or static publishing) and to change the expectation around instancy of updates.
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capjamesg[d] That’s an interesting take fluffy.
# capjamesg[d] Thanks for sharing!
# capjamesg[d] I implemented WebSub in part for the challenge but also because I was already doing some WebSub work for IndieWeb search.
# capjamesg[d] I like the idea of receiving a notification when content is posted.
# capjamesg[d] But it’s not strictly necessary for IndieWeb search because as long as you support a feed type for the content to which one may want to subscribe there will be a fallback.
# capjamesg[d] Which could mean a h-feed, of course.
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# capjamesg[d] I like the idea of merging WebSub with feed readers for automatic updates. But it is not as relevant to me because I don’t usually mind about seeing posts from blogs immediately.
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doosboox Trying to login to the wiki I get this: "None of the rel=me URLs found on your page were recognized as a supported provider" which is entirely correct because I have no twitter or facebook and don't want to use google to login anywhere. So I don't have any rel=me elements
# doosboox As I mentioned in -chat I believe a simpler login solution would be to email a login link to the email provided in the u-email element of an h-card. But I guess we're pretty invested in the OAuth solution and are going for that?
# doosboox as it is now IndieAuth is pretty centralised, because the complexity of implementation makes many use an external provider.
# doosboox yup
# doosboox I don't want to use an external provider, since that's not really the idea behind IndieAuth, but I haven't come around to implementing it myself or running an existing service. I'd have to set up a web service, which means another process to keep track of on my server, and forwarding in my web server... It just doesn't seem worth it.
# doosboox As I said, I like the idea of it but the complexity of implementation is prohibitin
# doosboox +g
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# doosboox Oh! Sorry for whining! It looks like it already can do that!
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# capjamesg[d] Can you not add a rel me to your email link?
# capjamesg[d] So you can auth with an email rather than a social provider?
# capjamesg[d] That what I do for auth I think?
# capjamesg[d] I don’t know much about IndieLogin though.
# capjamesg[d] I am just starting to dip my toe into auth.
# doosboox capjamesg[d]: did it now and it works :)
# capjamesg[d] Yay!
# doosboox it wasn't a link before
# capjamesg[d] Ah, I see!
# capjamesg[d] Welcome to the wiki!
# doosboox I tried just adding the rel='me' but that didn't work. Making it a link worked :D
# doosboox thank you!
# doosboox haha, I guess this means I've implemented IndieAuth 😆
# doosboox I added my solution under "self-hacked engines" 😆 Not sure that's where it belongs
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# capjamesg[d] I added mine as its own subheading I think.
# capjamesg[d] To be honest I should document more of the IndieWeb search engine somewhere too.
# capjamesg[d] But when I code I struggle to write at the same time.
# capjamesg[d] Anyway…
# capjamesg[d] doosboox++
# capjamesg[d] For your first wiki contribution!
# capjamesg[d] I love your search solution. Very simple and elegant!
# capjamesg[d] And useful too!
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Ruxton this is my fav non-service based indiauth method https://indieauth.com/pgp
# capjamesg[d] That is so cool!
# doosboox :D ty!
# doosboox Ruxton: yeah, that's cool!
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# doosboox Removed the <a> tag now and made a <link> element in the head instead :) appears to work fine
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jeremycherfas is tearing his hair out
# jeremycherfas OK, here's my problem. For some reason, my Pi 4 stopped connecting to my wifi. After trying various things without success, I do what I often do in these circumstances, which is to start again. New image, followed all the steps to get it to connect to wifi on start, setup up `wpa_supplicant.conf` the whole thing.
# jeremycherfas But when the Pi boots, it does not and will not connect to the wifi. One message is wlan0 not associated.
# jeremycherfas I search and search further and try various things that turns up. One offers a clue. `ifconfig` reports that wlan0 has (Ethernet) in its information.
# jeremycherfas Seazrch for that, and nothing seems to fit my need to at least try and get that to be wifi or ssid or something else.
# jeremycherfas So, before I go back to square one again, with another fresh image, does anyone have any suggestions or links to somewhare that might help me connect via wifi?
# jeremycherfas The frustration is partly that every tutorial ends with something like "W#hen you reboot you will now be connected to your wifi". None of them that I have found says "If you are not connected to the wifi, here are some things to troubleshoot".
# jeremycherfas Apologies for fat fingers.
# capjamesg[d] Wi-Fi has been a problem for me with the Pi in the past.
# capjamesg[d] I use a method where I provide my credentials directly onto the SD card before setup and first boot.
# capjamesg[d] This has been easiest for me.
# capjamesg[d] I know that doesn’t help but I wanted to share that it is an option.
# capjamesg[d] Oh, maybe you are already doing this actually z
# capjamesg[d] Never mind.
# capjamesg[d] Maybe this will be helpful though ^
# capjamesg[d] There are a few troubleshooting recommendations on that support page.
# capjamesg[d] Although the last few recommendations seem a bit niche.
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# jeremycherfas Thanks capjamesg[d] The suggestion to update the chip software is a bit moot as I can't get online. All the rest, I've done, at least once. Recognising that my response is essentially voodoo magic, I'll probably just start again from scratch.
# capjamesg[d] I wish I could help more 😦
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[KevinMarks] can you make a wifi network with no password to get it going?
# [KevinMarks] do Pi's do zeroconf? will it make a 169.254 address?
# jeremycherfas Beyond me [KevinMarks] I have a router that has a password. Not sure I can bypass that.
# [KevinMarks] you might be able to use hotspot on your phone to test, I've done that before
# jeremycherfas Good suggestion, but I think I would rather just begin again if I have to.
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# jeremycherfas Morning gwg
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# capjamesg[d] Morning GWG!
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[schmarty] jeremycherfas: I think you mentioned the Pi was connecting to WiFi before and has stopped. If nothing about the WiFi config has changed, there is a chance of a hardware issue on the Pi itself. If you have a spare usb WiFi dongle you could try that with the Pi. If it works you could stick with that or replace the Pi.
# jeremycherfas Alas, no dongle. I'm going to give it one more try from the very beginning.
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aaronpk one potential thing to note w.r.t indieauth https://github.com/aaronpk/oauth-v2-1/issues/46
# [jeremycherfas] Progress. Starting from scratch with a fresh image has allowed my pi to connect via wifi.
# aaronpk the actual draft is here https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-oauth-iss-auth-resp-02.html
# capjamesg[d] Good to hear [jeremycherfas]!
# [jeremycherfas] Now doing the update upgrade slow waltz
# capjamesg[d] Yeah. That can take some time.
# capjamesg[d] But soon you’ll have a Pi ready to work with!
# capjamesg[d] What are you planning to build / deploy?
# [jeremycherfas] Right. And then I can have fun getting Syncthing up and running again to the USB SSD.
# [jeremycherfas] but first I need to get VNC connecting from my desktop so I am not squinting at a 7-inch screen.
# capjamesg[d] Good call. Luckily it’s pretty easy to set up VNC on a Pi.
# capjamesg[d] I think it is in the System Settings now.
# aaronpk we could for example say that the `iss` needs to be the base URL of the authorization endpoint, e.g. if the authorization endpoint is https://example.com/auth then the iss value would be https://example.com/
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Loqi WebSub (previously known as PubSubHubbub or PuSH, and briefly PubSub) is a notification-based protocol for web publishing and subscribing to streams and legacy feed files in real time https://indieweb.org/WebSub
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[tantek] [fluffy] & capjamesg[d], per the dfn ^ (and /WebSub#Why), "efficiency" is NOT the "main purported benefit" of WebSub, but rather, enabling a completely different UX, which is *real time*
# [tantek] An obvious example of how real time is a different UX is what you're seeing right here in chat, within seconds (or less than a second) after I press enter after typing this, you see it appear. That's real time. Contrast that with *every single "Feed Reader"* out there which you might see something eventually, depending on polling etc.
# [tantek] I mean sure, there's a lot of design aspects of Twitter that likely contribute to its problematic nature. I'm not sure that "realtime" is essentially the cause of those problems though maybe it may amplify some of them? In other contexts (e.g. chat like here, or GitHub comments showing up on an issue while you're looking at it), real time is quite positive
# [fluffy]1 But anyway. I feel like Twitter-style interactions try to do a mix-and-match of blogging and chat and it brings out the worst tendencies in how people interact as a result. The realtime nature isn’t the *only* problem of course, and the algorithmic timeline is pretty good proof that immediacy isn’t even the root cause of that.
# [fluffy]1 They’re all like… interrelated issues. Like if you’re going to be doing tiny microblog updates, people are going to want to consume them as they come in, rather than reading a long scroll of mixed content. Those two aspects enable each other, and lead to an effect of people basically shouting past each other.
# [tantek] As a longtime reader of Twitter, the two worst parts of it are the mixing of too many especially non-personal threads (like I really wish I could put all non-personal-domain linked tweets AKA "comments on other post" in a completely different "feed", or only see them as a list of articles that my followings are commenting on)
# [tantek] btw, somewhat relevant to realtime: https://hackaday.com/2019/03/22/faster-computers-lead-to-slower-experiences/
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# capjamesg[d] [tantek] yep! That’s why I use it for IndieWeb search. Real-time notifications for content is very useful.
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "wildcard certificate" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "wildcard certificate is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [tantek] hmmm, for those of you that use wildcard certificates (not worth if this is worth creating a page for) https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/nsa-warns-of-wildcard-certificate-risks-provides-mitigations/
# capjamesg[d] Markup is not really necessary.
# capjamesg[d] I can just use domains as attribution.
# capjamesg[d] Usage stats is doable.
# capjamesg[d] I already run a link calculation program to finish building the index.
# capjamesg[d] I would probably store that info in a DB.
# capjamesg[d] Along with the apps actually.
# capjamesg[d] Elastic search would be too much for this I think.
# capjamesg[d] Well, maybe not.
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# [KevinMarks] I've written about the twitter problem at length before, but I think that they originally did very well at semi-overlapping publics, then iteratively broke the model with notifications and reply transclusion. Which is a warning for webmentions.
# Loqi publics are the combined set of people who make up the readership or audience of a post https://indieweb.org/publics
# [KevinMarks] No, it's making the @ reply the primary UI interaction that is the problem, and webmentions are @replies by default
# [KevinMarks] It was both those things, yes. Giving them an unread count and appending them to posts without honouring following combined the worst of mailing lists and blog comments.
# [KevinMarks] Hm I also need to extract this one from the ads between every paragraph state it is in https://www.fastcompany.com/3063060/a-brief-history-of-the-angry-social-network
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# micahrl[m] In light of all this Twitter talk I think it’s interesting that y’all pull in tweets that mention IndieWeb topics. Was thinking that it would be cool to do this on my own Matrix server for other topics I’m interested in - but for a great many topics the result would be awful
# micahrl[m] These topics have a low enough volume of tweets to make it manageable and even useful
# micahrl[m] Oh nice
# micahrl[m] I follow some accounts via feedbin.com (my rss reader)
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# [snarfed] capjamesg just fyi, re app store, indiemap only has 25 pages with h-x-app (out of 5.7M total), across 10 sites, https://console.cloud.google.com/bigquery?sq=464705913036:ca3269233d534e9ca5548de493b260c0 , and we haven't heard much work or discussion of it here in the years since the indiemap crawl
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GWG We discussed it in https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth/issues/23 back in 2018
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# [snarfed] capjamesg et al, here are the complete indiemap h-x-app results. 121 pages, 25 canonical. (beware, 29MB!) https://snarfed.org/h-x-app.csv