#dev 2021-10-21

2021-10-21 UTC
[chrisbergr], sebbu3, akevinhuang2, [tw2113_Slack_], jonnybarnes, grantcodes[d], hendursa1, KartikPrabhu, kogepan, omz13, tetov-irc, akevinhuang, schmudde, hs0ucy and hendursaga joined the channel
#
capjamesg[d] What is the right way to get responses to show in a Microsub reader?
#
aaronpk right now they don't
#
capjamesg[d] Has there been a discussion around this behaviour?
#
capjamesg[d] Just like how, say, Twitter shows replies below Tweets.
#
aaronpk https://github.com/indieweb/microsub/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Abrainstorming
#
aaronpk there's this one which is similar https://github.com/indieweb/microsub/issues/3
#
Loqi [aaronpk] #3 Indicating whether posts have already been responded to
#
aaronpk but one challenge in particular is dealing with whether to trust the display of responses from a website
#
aaronpk for example if i made a fake comment on my post that said it was by you, there's no way to tell that it's fake unless you try to click through to the original post and it's not there
#
capjamesg[d] That makes sense. Verifying each comment would add a bit of overhead to any implementation too.
justHaunt joined the channel
#
[KevinMarks] Also, that's one of the big harassment vectors in twitter
schmudde joined the channel
#
aaronpk i thought that was surfacing replies from people you follow
#
aaronpk from people you follow replying to people who you don't follow
#
[tantek] indeed I thought this was a reader-side thing, when it sees reply posts in the collection of feeds being followed, it can display those when it displays the original posts in the collection of feeds being followed
#
[tantek] the point is to display replies from feeds you already follow, rather than displaying "all replies"
#
aaronpk ah i like that
#
aaronpk so sort of collapsing the view of posts that the reader already knows about because you're following them
#
[tantek] exactly
#
[tantek] and it's a natural filter too, re-using your followings as your filter
#
[tantek] replies << Brainstorm: How to display replies in a [[reader]]: When a reader sees [[reply]] posts in the collection of feeds being followed, it can display those (as comments) when it displays the original posts in the collection of feeds being followed. The point (deliberate design) is to display replies from feeds you already follow, in the context of the original post, rather than displaying "all replies".
#
Loqi ok, I added "Brainstorm: How to display replies in a [[reader]]: When a reader sees [[reply]] posts in the collection of feeds being followed, it can display those (as comments) when it displays the original posts in the collection of feeds being followed. The point (deliberate design) is to display replies from feeds you already follow, in the context of the original post, rather than displaying "all replies"." to the "See Also" section of /comments https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=77558&oldid=77208
#
[tantek] aaronpk, this way you also don't have to "trust the display of responses from a website"
#
aaronpk yep
#
aaronpk good way to avoid that issue entirely
maxwelljoslyn[d] joined the channel
#
[tantek] also builds on existing reader / Microsub building blocks which I think is a good methodology in general
#
GWG I missed an interesting chat, apparently about Microsub.
#
GWG But it gives me some ideas when I get back to Microsub work
#
[snarfed]1 out of curiosity, have we seen a spoofed/fake response in the wild yet?
#
capjamesg[d] [tantek]++
#
Loqi [tantek] has 20 karma in this channel over the last year (66 in all channels)
#
capjamesg[d] I love that idea.
#
[tantek] snarfed, you mean where the page as a whole isn't spam / spoofed?
#
[tantek] because there are plenty of those!
#
[tantek] sockpuppeting etc.
#
[snarfed]1 right, I specifically mean a spoofed/fake response, like Aaron mentioned
#
aaronpk whether or not we have yet, i'm not comfortable building stuff that is going to rely on the assumption that it won't happen
#
[snarfed]1 we've known about the possibility for a long time, I'm just curious when we'll see the first real one in the wild
#
[snarfed]1 oh of course. I'm just curious to see when it will first happen, and how frequently after that, since that informs the priority of preventing/mitigating it
#
aaronpk a slightly less bad version that has almost certainly already happened is if someone deletes a response but the site still shows it
#
aaronpk either because they didn't send the webmention delete properly or because the receiving site didn't handle the delete properly
#
[snarfed]1 definitely less bad, but sure
#
[snarfed]1 that one I bet has happened in the wild, since 410 support (both sending and receiving) seems so limited
#
[tantek] similarly for updates
stevestreza, amcorrigal and gRegor joined the channel
#
capjamesg[d] aaronpk why does the spec specify sending a 410 Gone code vs. a 404?
#
capjamesg[d] That is easy to do if you have a server-side application that you control but is difficult in other scenarios.
#
capjamesg[d] I don’t think I can send 410s from Netlify.
doosboox joined the channel
#
nekr0z capjamesg[d]: because there's a difference between "does not exist" and "used to be here, but intentionally no longer is"
#
nekr0z 404 may be a sign of some kind of failure. 410 always shows intention
#
nekr0z capjamesg[d]: You could do the next best thing: create a tombstone in place of the original page with `<meta http-equiv="Status" content="410 Gone"/>` in the `<head>`.
#
capjamesg[d] Oh, that’s interesting. I had no idea you could do that!
#
capjamesg[d] I agree there is a difference. I was more thinking about the extent to which 410 can be easily adopted. But if there is a meta tag that can be used, my point is moot.
#
capjamesg[d] nekr0z++
#
Loqi nekr0z has 7 karma in this channel over the last year (8 in all channels)
kogepan joined the channel
#
capjamesg[d] https://evertpot.com/http/410-gone
#
Loqi 410 Gone is a status code that can be used in cases where a resource is gone and never coming back. It’s a more specific version of 404 Not Found. A good example for using 410 instead of 404 is when a resource was intentionally removed. Using 410...
#
capjamesg[d] I like that post ^
#
capjamesg[d] nekr0z could you add that meta tag to the wiki?
#
capjamesg[d] What is 410?
#
Loqi 410 is the HTTP status code for GONE, meaning whatever URL was requested is not there any more, and used in webmention CRUD to indicate that a source has been deleted https://indieweb.org/410
#
nekr0z capjamesg[d]: BTW, since you're online, I wanted to point out a little glitch in indieweb-search ;)
#
nekr0z "evgenykuznetsov.org inspect feed" returns nothing, though the site is obviously indexed
#
nekr0z and "toby3d.me inspect feed" returns nonsense
#
nekr0z <capjamesg[d]> "Evgeny Kuznetsov could you add..." <- Will do.
#
capjamesg[d] Thanks! I’ll fix those issues tomorrow 🙂
#
capjamesg[d] I haven’t indexed toby3d.me. I think it might appear on the HTTPS page which is why that page shows up.
#
capjamesg[d] Which is not right.
perro joined the channel
#
nekr0z capjamesg[d]: oh, and grishka.me was a little bit offended when indieweb-search suggested he was a geisha! :-D
#
nekr0z (just try searching for "grishka" and see what comes up ;)
#
capjamesg[d] The autocorrect?
#
capjamesg[d] It tries its best. I don’t have an advanced algorithm for that purpose. I don’t know what I could do to expand it other than improve the index.
#
capjamesg[d] If sites should be in there I’ll add them 🙂
#
capjamesg[d] I wonder whether the feature is necessary.
#
gRegor I wonder how many webmention receivers process <meta> for HTTP status, though. I'm pretty sure I don't
#
gRegor files an issue to remind myself
#
gRegor Trying Bridgy Github for the first time. That asks for a lot of permissions.
#
gRegor Guessing they don't have granular permissions for just read/write issues
#
nekr0z <capjamesg[d]> "I wonder whether the feature..." <- I'm not sure it's necessary, but it will definitely be welcome. Of course, it will have to test that the suggested site is indeed at least somewhat IndieWeb (i.e. has a representative h-card or an h-feed or something), else it will be a source of spam...
[chrisaldrich] and jamietanna joined the channel
#
jamietanna Capjamesg[d] I've done 410s from Netlify before, I think, I'll dig up the code tomorrow
#
nekr0z <gRegor> "I wonder how many webmention..." <- https://indieweb.org/meta_http-equiv_status may hold some answers ;)
#
nekr0z Also, the spec explicitly requires that a Webmention receiver MUST honor the http-equiv 410 ;-)
#
gRegor only two looks like, one which is lost
#
gRegor Interesting, it's on that meta-http-equiv page but not the Webmention spec (yet?)
#
gRegor First Bridgy Publish to Github worked pretty smoothly, woo!
#
nekr0z <gRegor> "Interesting, it's on that meta-..." <- Webmention spec is clever that way. It says that if you support deletes at all (which you SHOULD), and get an updated webmention with source that is a 200, but no longer links to the target, you MUST treat it as a delete.
#
nekr0z Since a tombstone with http-equiv 410 is not supposed to have any meaningful h-entry content anyway, this case is basically covered ;)
#
gRegor Sure, which I handle
#
gRegor Interesting reply format... what chat interface is that from?
#
nekr0z The Matrix bridge.
#
nekr0z I keep forgetting that the channel is actually IRC :)
#
[snarfed]1 sorry about the permissions gRegor! details: https://brid.gy/about#GitHub%20has
tetov-irc, hendursaga and akevinhuang2 joined the channel