#dev 2021-12-22
2021-12-22 UTC
darkkirb, gRegor, Tonny, [aciccarello], KartikPrabhu, KartikPrabhu1 and alex11 joined the channel
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@voxpelli ↩️ Also: @indiewebcamp which is just plain old semantic HTML progressively enhanced to facilitate social interactions (even real-time such, as I support in https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ which is long overdue to get some love from me) (twitter.com/_/status/1473597842505797633)
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edgeduchess[d] and also that it's going to stay long term and be the ultimate solution
# edgeduchess[d] if you have to define a standard for data portability, it should be as generic as possible
# edgeduchess[d] interesting
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[schmarty] looks like the main sqlite.c implementation (and, likely, the spec/standard) are maintained by one team
# [schmarty] but it's ported or linked to so many places it is ubiquitous.
# [schmarty] it serves many different purposes to HTML
# [schmarty] (for example, the HTML spec doesn't define behaviors for allowing relational database actions over HTML documents or data derived from them)
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# [schmarty] hahaha the governance of the project is _a little weird to me_, i will admit. https://www.sqlite.org/copyright.html
# [schmarty] my preference is to store most things in flat files. when you need to do stuff that touches a lot of those files, build an index. sqlite is great for that part.
# edgeduchess[d] forgive me if this is a newbie question, but is there any effort to standardize these formats so they can be imported by different platforms?
# edgeduchess[d] not just the format they're written in, but which information they contain
# [schmarty] edgeduchess[d]: which formats in particular?
# edgeduchess[d] > One of many reasons I find it hard to close my accounts in some old social media networks is: being scared to lose your chats, images, data etc. So, we need a de-centralised approach. Anyone can just “pack” their account(history included) and move somewhere else, through a “commune” framework
# edgeduchess[d] this was the original question people answered to with "interoperability between blockchains"
# edgeduchess[d] I'm curious what the best approximation of an answer to this is right now
# [schmarty] what is data portability?
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Loqi data portability is the ability for the user of a device, service, or site to move their data (anything they author or incidentally create like location tracking) to another device, service, or site (like their indie web site) of their choosing, preferably in an open standard format https://indieweb.org/data_portability
# edgeduchess[d] interesting
# [schmarty] a mix of stuff there in terms of goals and approach.
# [schmarty] what is the Data Transfer Project?
# Loqi Data Transfer Project is a collaboration of organizations committed to building a common framework with open-source code that can connect any two online service providers, enabling a seamless, direct, user initiated portability of data between the two platforms https://indieweb.org/Data_Transfer_Project
# [schmarty] ^^ that may fit more in line with what you asked - BigCos supposedly working together to standardize data transfer formats.
# edgeduchess[d] interesting, I will have to look into it more
# edgeduchess[d] does anyone have insights/opinions on how they're faring with it?
# edgeduchess[d] I might dump it into the bluesky chat just to see what their thoughts are, but i'd like to have a more complete opinion of it beforehand
# edgeduchess[d] (which is hard to get on my own right now since I can't dig in quite immediately)
# [schmarty] i found it tough to see through the marketing-bits on their main website. this seems to show some activity, though! https://github.com/google/data-transfer-project
# Loqi [google] data-transfer-project: The Data Transfer Project makes it easy for people to transfer their data between online service providers. We are establishing a common framework, including data models and protocols, to enable direct transfer of data both into and out of participating online service providers.
# edgeduchess[d] is there any effort here (or somewhere else) to use this standard to transfer into your own blog/service?
# [schmarty] what is ditchbook?
# Loqi ditchbook is a toolkit for moving your Facebook data to your own website using Micropub https://indieweb.org/ditchbook
# edgeduchess[d] ooh that's great, thanks
# [schmarty] there's one, fairly focused example. the facebook data dump format has likely changed so it probably isn't exactly turn-key.
# edgeduchess[d] yeah
# [schmarty] i've also seen folks using the WordPress import/export format to work from. i know micro.blog has support for that and... probably more?
# [schmarty] ah, yeah, there's also a tool to import instagram at least: https://help.micro.blog/t/import-from-instagram/77
# edgeduchess[d] tantek (who I don't think I can tag) was talking earlier about the blockchain being a byproduct of the "trend of complexity" and bro-culture, which I don't disagree with, but to me it also feels like part of the issue is how fragmented the existing ecosystem and efforts seem
# edgeduchess[d] I don't know how fair this description is, but I can imagine it does feel like this to most web3 people (which includes people that don't do their own research in the first place)
# [schmarty] blockchain-based efforts also feel pretty fragmented to me 😂
# edgeduchess[d] it's basically this again
# edgeduchess[d] oh absolutely, but they're basically building on the idea that *this time* they'll get it right, just wait and see
# edgeduchess[d] cause they have ~the money incentives~
# edgeduchess[d] IMO what they should be doing if they wanted to achieve their goal should be a consensus/vision-building effort also based on what's already there, but that is hard work that doesn't get people as excited as thinking they can redo the whole thing from scratch
# edgeduchess[d] getting a vision like this to be effective is much more politics than it is technology
# [schmarty] edgeduchess[d]++ yes indeed these are people problems and not software problems.
# [schmarty] (i tried to keep in the snark but failed: i also think a lot of these projects don't care about reaching their _stated_ goals so much as they hope to make a buck or grab some power)
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[tantek] as someone who has directly participated in Data Transfer Project meetings (on behalf of Mozilla), I don't hold out much hope for that effort, or frankly any portability effort that is dominated by big companies who are each somewhat distrusting of each other, even when they have the best of intentions
# edgeduchess[d] I'm also skeptical about anything led by big companies having seen how they operate from the inside and what their incentives are
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[KevinMarks] the old Data Liberation Front at Google was pretty good faith about this, but I'm not sure how that has held up since Fitz left
# edgeduchess[d] but then what's the alternative?
# [KevinMarks] OK, that's good.
# Loqi export (specifically, How to export your data) in the context of the indieweb refers to the ability to download some or all of your data from a site, typically from a silo, though also for CMS or site migration https://indieweb.org/export
# Loqi backfill is the action of importing all your past posts, typically from a social media silo, into your own site https://indieweb.org/backfill
# [tantek] edgeduchess[d] if you don't see the silos you want/need to export things from in this list https://indieweb.org/export#Any_time — feel free to add a new toplevel "Brainstorming" section with requests for additional silo export tips / "how to" etc.
# edgeduchess[d] I'm trying to think about how a tool to less-technical help people export/import into another service would work, and whether it would be a worthwhile effort
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# edgeduchess[d] or what preconditions should be there to make it a worthwhile effort
# edgeduchess[d] cause you have a bit of a chicken and egg problem, right? it's hard for new platforms to grow because people don't want to move, and people don't want to move because they're locked in
# edgeduchess[d] if each new platform has to reimplement this from scratch then it's a really high upfront cost
# edgeduchess[d] very fair point
# edgeduchess[d] I mean, I guess i'm the first person that thinks this isn't a pre-requisite
# edgeduchess[d] but I guess it does make me sad that it's not easier
# edgeduchess[d] no, I agree with that
# edgeduchess[d] though I did talk with some of the people that were there for the LiveJournal=>DreamWidth migration, and they did mention data portability as something that helped
# edgeduchess[d] I think do not care and begrudgingly do it is not exactly the same thing
# edgeduchess[d] the amount of resources people need to bootstrap a social company without data portability favors those that make it with VC money
# edgeduchess[d] the fact that with enough amount of throwing away cash you can get people to do it doesn't mean it wouldn't be easier for smaller platforms to grow if that were easy
# edgeduchess[d] but I agree with you in general, and I don't think this is an absolute pre-requisite
# edgeduchess[d] still, I think a lot more people would have migrated from Tumblr to other blogging services if they could have had a similar experience without losing their data, instead of them moving to Twitter en-masse when the porn ban happened
# [KevinMarks] the Google+ export was pretty well done as HTML and formats like vcf for events
# edgeduchess[d] with wordpress being open source I wonder if one could push for packaging that flow in a tool that can be reused
# [KevinMarks] I just looked it up now and I'm browsing it in firefox as html
# edgeduchess[d] (not saying this is something that should be done as an effort right now, btw, just chatting about what could be possible)
# edgeduchess[d] I'll keep it in mind for when I think my own projects might benefit from that (and as I make more connections with others leading projects that might benefit)
# edgeduchess[d] I do think modularization and shared efforts is the way forward for a sustainable, "bootstrapped platforms" ecosystem in the social space
# [tantek] you're also welcome to add it to something like /WordPress#Brainstorming as a oneliner list item in the hopes that someone might eventually discover it and pick it up
# edgeduchess[d] how do I do that?
# edgeduchess[d] oh i guess i can do it from the wiki itself yeah
# edgeduchess[d] i see you all doing commands stuff to add things and was wondering whether there was a way to do it from chat
# edgeduchess[d] but also i do not see a brainstorming section there
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "brainstorming" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "brainstorming is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [tantek] to-do << Create a [[brainstorming]] page describing what it is, and how to create a Brainstorming section as part of [[wikifying]]
# Loqi ok, I added "Create a [[brainstorming]] page describing what it is, and how to create a Brainstorming section as part of [[wikifying]]" to the "See Also" section of /to-do https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=78544&oldid=78440
# [KevinMarks] I found where I accidentally invited 120 people to a microformats dinner in G+ and they were so polite about it https://where.kevin-marks.com/20121218%20-%20Microformats%20Dinner%20_%20Drinks/20121218%20-%20Microformats%20Dinner%20_%20Drinks.html
# [KevinMarks] er not 120, 655