#dev 2022-10-19

2022-10-19 UTC
#
[jgarber] I feel attacked.
jacky joined the channel
#
[tantek] lol the reply guys pointing out .dev is on the HSTS preload list. I literally ran into that ages ago when that switch was flipped (was using .dev for local development)
#
aaronpk sameee
#
aaronpk but also i already had local tls set up for it ;-)
geoffo and gRegorLove_ joined the channel
#
[snarfed] anyone know of expected/best practices for webmention discovery for targets that have client side meta http-equiv=refresh redirects?
#
[snarfed] I expect most senders don't follow them, but we're considering doing that in Bridgy: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/253
#
Loqi [snarfed] #253 support HTML meta http-equiv=refresh redirects
bterry, Seirdy, h4kor[m], lqdev[m], jacky_ and mro joined the channel
#
@ummjackson ↩️ Makes sense, but how do you ensure all federated data repos sync with one another if there isn't something akin to a Webmention taking place? Also, I'm guessing it'll be kinda impossible in this federated world to avoid faked like/retweet count counts? (twitter.com/_/status/1582615000958369792)
#
@ummjackson ↩️ > Then your PDS will notify the PDS of the recipient(s) of the content to sync up Makes sense, is the protocol for that in the docs somewhere? Feels like a Webmention. (twitter.com/_/status/1582615267464486914)
#
capjamesg [tantek] The @ syntax felt most intuitive for me.
#
capjamesg "i find that it usually involves writing @domain.com in source code and then replacing the @ and the domain name with the nick or known name of the identity causing it to lose some of the implicit UX of the raw domain name." - +1 on this
#
capjamesg I wrote about my implementation here: https://jamesg.blog/2021/12/17/indieweb-commitment-person-tags/
#
capjamesg But I didn't cover the point about why I chose the syntax.
#
Loqi [James] IndieWeb New Years' Eve Commitment: Expanding my person tags
#
[Jamie_Tanna] Tantek I want to say I followed seb's example, but can't remember if I went a step further to make it an FQDN. Since a few folks recently have changed URLs, however, I have been considering using a better nickname (ie `@jamie`) when I migrate to my new site
mro joined the channel
#
Zegnat I think some of the examples listed on https://indieweb.org/nicknames-cache#IndieWeb_Examples might support @-domain. sebsel specifically mentions that as a usecase of his implementation: https://seblog.nl/2017/06/14/6/at-mentioning-people
#
@kevinmarks ↩️ A combination of Webmention (for replies) and WebSub (for following) makes sense (twitter.com/_/status/1582656162649935878)
barnaby joined the channel
#
@juhaliikala ↩️ Testing webmentions. Does this show up in the blog? (twitter.com/_/status/1582679220395745281)
#
jeremycherfas Does anyone in here use aaronpk's Atlas for generating static maps of routes taken?
#
GWG jeremycherfas: I use a fork of his code I maintain
#
jeremycherfas It is open access?
#
jeremycherfas I don't mean the fork. I mean your instance.
#
jeremycherfas I'm not sure I would be able to host and maintain myself.
#
GWG jeremycherfas: It is, just not advertised
#
GWG I haven't gotten hammered yet
#
jeremycherfas May I test something with it?
geoffo joined the channel
#
GWG jeremycherfas: Of course...it uses most of the same arguments....
#
jeremycherfas URL?
#
@brob ↩️ I can't wait to see your implementation on this. I ended up removing webmentions from mine due to some spam issues and the management of the spam, but I feel like it was more of an implementation issue there! (twitter.com/_/status/1582729347689222149)
geoffo joined the channel
#
@whitep4nth3r ↩️ @brob It was a little tricky given you can no longer auth with IndieAuth via Twitter... and the UX for signing with… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582729774216384512 (twitter.com/_/status/1582729774216384512)
#
Zegnat Ideas why IndieAuth login is a blocker for implementing Webmentions? ^
#
barnaby they’re using webmention.io, which requires indieauth to sign up
#
barnaby wow that page is full of svg and picture elements! cool
#
barnaby very nice presentation of the like and repost reponses, too
geoffo joined the channel
#
Zegnat barnaby: ah, that would do it
[Murray] joined the channel
#
[Murray] whitep4nth3r++ they've been doing some really cool stuff on their site recently 🙂
#
Loqi whitep4nth3r has 1 karma over the last year
#
[Murray] saw them doing some fun stuff the other day with Edge functions and headers to show custom messages to people coming from HN or Reddit etc: https://twitter.com/whitep4nth3r/status/1581975426032730112?s=20&t=YUar9L4MYAXLGMMikrhiew
#
@whitep4nth3r Using @Netlify Edge Functions to show banners based on the HTTP referer request header 👀 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FfROQbNXwAA-CDZ.png (twitter.com/_/status/1581975426032730112)
#
barnaby heh not sure what to think about that
#
barnaby but presumably it’s a result of bad experiences with people coming from those sites
#
[Murray] I think it's partially that, partially just a fun demo for Edge functions (which likely get a lot of traffic from this types of aggregator sites)
jacky joined the channel
#
sknebel barnaby: jwz redirects HN referrers to a not really NSFW image... compared to that a small header is quite fine :P
#
barnaby I mostly find it hard to believe that reddit is much worse than twitter in terms of harrassment and abuse
#
barnaby but I suppose it varies depending on the individual
#
jacky yeah
#
jacky esp on direction, popular content promotion, etc
#
barnaby the only tech-related subreddit I spend any time on is r/rust, which seems pretty reasonable. I have no idea where reddit abuse directed at web design blogs would even come from
#
sknebel yeah, really depends. (and I'd agree in the specific example, r/rust is doing a reasonable job at not amplifiying the bad parts)
geoffo, jacky, miklb, EncryptedGiraffe and barnaby joined the channel
#
@person72443 ↩️ Oh and webmentions. Webmentions are the COOLEST thing, imo. It's basically globally-compatible @ notifications, replies, bookmarks, etc. I have it set up for replies on my blog. (twitter.com/_/status/1582775498584645636)
#
[KevinMarks] webmention << https://twitter.com/_/status/1582775498584645636
#
Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/_/status/1582775498584645636" to the "See Also" section of /Webmention https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83894&oldid=82753
miklb and jacky joined the channel
#
jacky been working on /Sele; this is the in-progress consent screen https://i.imgur.com/ybNQ2pL.png
#
jacky obviously overloaded (I have a minimal one in the works esp since a lot of this is "auto" stuff)
#
jacky downside is that it's def /js;dr right now, thinking about how to undo that without also sacrifing functionality (as feasibly possible)
jacky joined the channel
#
@Frank01682191 wl Outstanding @CryptoID1706 @FortisFederico @Greenroom99 @yemolala02 @Kameshk97757630 @MzMady2 @w23815 @agatton_ai @kindy_10 @gtsb_webmention @Bhrth_ @Yeraykokis @devchaliha @Rishikrishna34 @vicdetermined (twitter.com/_/status/1582788533579751424)
#
jacky thinking to think about how I'd want to 'group' scopes visually
#
jacky like what kind of factors would help indicate that
#
[schmarty] jacky++ some interesting ideas in here!!!
#
Loqi jacky has 31 karma in this channel over the last year (68 in all channels)
#
[aciccarello] jacky have you demoed where sele is at recently? I'm impressed by how many pieces you've included.
#
jacky quickly updates wiki
jacky joined the channel
#
jacky okay so it has an older version at https://a.jacky.wtf/web/
#
jacky the newer version will be up when it's ready (god knows when I learn to cut scope, lol)
#
jacky that above version really is only useful for me (as public registration isn't a thing yet - it's built to be invite-centric)
#
jacky I hope (HOPE) that I can finish the alpha before the end of the year
mro joined the channel
#
jacky side-note: how do people manage their side projects/site manangmeent?
#
jacky I've been dumping into text files (TDDs and PRDs are eternal) and then using issues to plan out work
#
jacky bluesky << https://atproto.com/
#
Loqi ok, I added "https://atproto.com/" to the "See Also" section of /bluesky https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83897&oldid=81918
#
[tantek] jacky, if by "site management" you mean coding on my own "CMS" (yes, deliberate scare quotes), I keep a private text file for specific bugs to fix (seems like prudent security), and the rest sometimes go into a private text file, though eventually I try to dump them into https://indieweb.org/Falcon#Working_On, inserting them into a rough priority order, or if it's a far-off thing I can't even try to prioritize, I may put it on the
#
[tantek] end of https://indieweb.org/Falcon#Brainstorms
#
jacky bet bet
#
jacky want to see if I can mimic something to keep updates in the open
#
jacky but tbh, blogging :) lol
#
[tantek] My hope is that those async additions to the wiki may serendipitously show up in someone else's search of the wiki when they're looking to work on something similar, and then that can be a source of conversation in chat to perhaps try to collaboratively solve a problem space (rather than attempting to solve problems purely on my own)
#
[tantek] I think that's in general a good feature of such public "to do" lists
jacky, mro and jacky_ joined the channel
#
barnaby having a sqlite explorer built into my editor is so convenient. being able to treat an sqlite db as a big file which I can easily poke around in gets close to the convenience of flat files, with the added convenience of SQL functionality
[chrisaldrich] joined the channel
#
Zegnat barnaby: are you doing the custom differ trick in git for sqlite too? I did that for a while, was very interesting. Something like https://gist.github.com/peteristhegreat/a028bc3b588baaea09ff67f405af2909
#
barnaby ooh no I’m not Zegnat, didn’t know that was possible. very cool
#
barnaby not sure I’ll use it for taproot as part of using sqlite for storage is getting my data and code separate, so the plan is for the db not to be in git
#
Zegnat It is not generally a good idea to store sqlite files in git because it makes your repo size grow (stores full binary blobs for each commit), but if you just have a small or empty db for setup purposes in a repo the quick diffing thing is nice to visualise schema changes and what not
#
barnaby #indieweb -> #dev
#
barnaby taking the simple approach of storing rejected responses allows me to have basic moderation immediately but lets me procrastinate on developing a more comprehensive moderation rule system
#
barnaby so it seems like a good place to start
#
[snarfed] barnaby++
#
Loqi barnaby has 19 karma in this channel over the last year (33 in all channels)
#
barnaby I just wish sqlite could automatically compress text data xD my HTML archive is 233MB already
#
barnaby but only 77MB compressed
#
[snarfed] does that matter much? disk is cheap, right? how fast is it growing?
#
barnaby #dev continuation of vouch discussion: I note that rel nofollow isn’t mentioned on /vouch
#
barnaby [snarfed]: not extremely fast, it’s probably not a big deal
#
capjamesg Can rel=search and rel=manifest be specified in HTTP headers?
#
capjamesg Is that going to cause any issues?
#
capjamesg Here are my meta tags: https://gist.github.com/capjamesg/9723c877c084be89feefda2d02ab512e
jacky joined the channel
#
[tantek] capjamesg, before shifting them to headers, you should ask what are the consuming use-cases
#
[aciccarello] https://indieweb.org/The-Open-Graph-protocol has some good recommendations for OGP meta tags that can be dropped
#
[tantek] does anyone support rel=search any more
#
[tantek] and what user functionality does rel=manifest add to your website?
putierre joined the channel
#
[tantek] aciccarello++ indeed. We should write-up similar recommendations for Twitter meta tags that can be dropped
#
Loqi aciccarello has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (8 in all channels)
#
Zegnat From what I can see, capjamesg, the rel-manifest spec only mentions <link> elements and nothing about HTTP headers. So consumers might not parse headers for it. Could be worth testing.
#
[aciccarello] Twitter cards also fall back to og: tags so you shouldn't need to duplicate them.
#
[aciccarello] https://developer.twitter.com/en/docs/twitter-for-websites/cards/guides/getting-started#opengraph
#
jacky I wish they dropped their custom form and extended OGP tbh
#
jacky at least, then, they'd be a hope for silos playing along
#
Zegnat link-preview << [https://meiert.com/en/blog/minimal-social-markup/ Minimal Social Markup] (2022-10-19) for Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Signal, WhatsApp, in 4 meta elements
#
Loqi ok, I added "[https://meiert.com/en/blog/minimal-social-markup/ Minimal Social Markup] (2022-10-19) for Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Signal, WhatsApp, in 4 meta elements" to the "See Also" section of /link-preview https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83911&oldid=74789
#
[aciccarello] They do support OGP, but they have their own tags if you want to override the property just for twitter
#
Zegnat There you go, tested by someone who takes minimal HTML very-very serious, get link previews cross-silo in 4 elements thanks to fallbacks all around
#
jacky oh yeah sure - I'm saying more that I wish the extra functionality was done as part as an OGP extension :)
#
barnaby nice find Zegnat++
#
Loqi Zegnat has 8 karma in this channel over the last year (16 in all channels)
#
jacky dang lol even the validator for twitter cards is a little off (according to https://meiert.com/en/blog/minimal-social-markup/#comment-243526)
#
[KevinMarks] they broke it recntly
#
Zegnat jacky: have you ever seen any ogp extensions? They even added namespace support, but I think I have never seen anyone do ogp stuff outside of the handful of link preview elements
#
jacky I haven't (hence my hope - it's overly optimistic)
#
sknebel I technically have encountered ogp for business information (like opening times) in the wild. I have not encountered such information that actually was correct though
#
jacky this reminds me of doctorow's "metacrap" concept lol
#
[aciccarello] TIL: "Note that Open Graph recommends specifying the “og” RDFa Core 1.1 CURIE prefix mapping via <html prefix="og: http://ogp.me/ns#">"
#
jacky xml can't be avoided :)
#
[tantek] “Recommends” but makes no difference in practice to any consuming application
#
[aciccarello] That's what I figured
#
Zegnat Atleast you hope it makes no difference, you never know, in a world where it matters whether you put quotes around your HTML attribute values or not ;)
#
jacky lol
#
gRegor Twitter's card validator caches aggressively in my experience, so I've had to add a unique query string between tests
#
jacky I'd cache aggressively too if I knew that I'd get 1,000 views a second lol
#
[snarfed] caching++
#
Loqi caching has 1 karma over the last year
#
[KevinMarks] etag++
#
Loqi etag has 1 karma over the last year
#
gRegor On a card validator tool? heh
#
[snarfed] yeah it'd be nice for the validator to skip the cache. eg granary's web UI does that
#
gRegor FB at least has a "fetch fresh" option
#
[KevinMarks] the card validator used to be good at cache busting the main cache, guess they broke that
#
[snarfed] (unrelated, Bridgy has blithely disobeyed the webmention spec and cached endpoints per domain for pretty much its entire life. not recommended for the usual indieweb site sender, but 😎 )
#
Zegnat I have had mixed results with the FB validator too, especially with images ...
#
barnaby [snarfed]: huh I’m pretty sure my webmention endpoint URLs have an expiring token in which prevent them from being reused after five minutes or so
#
[snarfed] yes that is true 🤷
#
gRegor That's one way to not get spam tweet replies from Bridgy XD
#
barnaby but I do get responses from bridgy
#
barnaby so either my tokens don’t work (entirely possible) or bridgy re-fetches them occasionally, or on errors or something
#
[snarfed] I looked through your last 3 mos or so of Bridgy wms, they've been too sparse for this to become a problem. averaged maybe 1 a week or so, and no bursts of more than one in 2h (Bridgy's cache expiration)
#
barnaby ah okay, yeah if the cache expires every 2h then that’s unlikely to be a problem
#
barnaby and I already have to write a bunch of exceptions for bridgy, I’m happy to add another ;)
#
[snarfed] aww sorry
#
barnaby oh no worries, it’s worth it for all the benefits bridgy brings!
#
barnaby bridgy++ [snarfed]++
#
Loqi bridgy has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (13 in all channels)
#
Loqi [snarfed] has 20 karma in this channel over the last year (48 in all channels)
jacky and Seirdy joined the channel