#dev 2022-10-22

2022-10-22 UTC
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slyduda[m] snarfed, made that small change! :)
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[jgarber] barnaby++ for implementing app author information on Taproot’s consent UI. I’d forgotten about that line of conversation. Busy week. 😅
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[jgarber] Also, barnaby: Could you add that screen shot to https://indieweb.org/consent_screen ?
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Loqi barnaby has 23 karma in this channel over the last year (38 in all channels)
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IWDiscordGateway <slyduda> any place i can go to understand more about what micropub looks like? having a bit of trouble with the wiki description
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GWG Looks like?
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IWDiscordGateway <slyduda> apologies for being vague. to be a bit more specific i just was wondering if anyone had any resources that points to a live implementation
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IWDiscordGateway <slyduda> found the micropub/clients. idk how that flew over my head
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GWG Plenty.
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GWG But, to give you a simple example, Micropub is a POST to a Micropub endpoint, either form encoded properties or JSON encoded. Nothing too complicated there, hopefully.
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GWG Anything I can help with?
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[tantek] slyduda did you have a look at the spec?
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IWDiscordGateway <slyduda> GWG: i’ll do a bit more digging on how micropub endpoints work with indieauth before i ask any more questions. i was a bit tired after a long week and my brain had some trouble.
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IWDiscordGateway <slyduda> tantek: i didn’t look at the spec, just the indieweb page. i will take a look at the spec!
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IWDiscordGateway <slyduda> Thank you both! 🙂
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[tantek] https://micropub.spec.indieweb.org/
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GWG IndieAuth just is how you get a token to identify yourself to Micropub.
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[Jamie_Tanna] slyduda are you looking to build a client, server or both, or just interested to see what it's about? If so, what language?
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> Does Micropub require the usage of microformats objects?
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> Never mind. I found an answer in the spec.
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barnaby [jgarber]: thanks! I’ll add the screenshot as soon as I’m using this library on my site, those screenshots are from the internal testing tool
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> Is it worth requesting addition of other IndieWeb rel values like Micropub and indieauth metadata to the IANA Link registry?
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> https://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.xhtml
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> I’m happy to get the ball rolling and draft an issue for admission.
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IWDiscordGateway <slyduda> [Jamie_Tanna]: just learning right now! kinda both. python and javascript
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Saphire Urgh
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Saphire Kinda want to poke at making own indieauth endpoint but uhm
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Saphire Aaa
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barnaby it’s a somewhat involved process, especially if you’re not familiar with OAuth
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Saphire For it I would need, let's see... A web server, that's a given. User auth system, too. Storage, quite likely..
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Saphire Ephemeral auth server sounds rather silly, though I can think of a way to make that sorta work. Except it will still store stuff and so..
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sknebel the basic version only knows a single hardcoded user and uses signed tokens for everything to avoid storage (which has various downsides, e.g. cant actually enforce single-use only, not revoke individual ones, ...)
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sknebel storage can be simple, e.g. a folder full of files is usable storage
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Saphire I'm really tempted to just slap ASP.NET all over this and not worry about it >.> It's.. easier, hmph
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Saphire ...bonus points you get to use EF which is a really, really nice ORM
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barnaby easier++
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Loqi easier has 1 karma over the last year
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aaronpk i don't know why ASP.NET would be a bad option
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sknebel asp ecosystem might even have prexisting oauth identity server type stuff you can customize to support the indieauth bits
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sknebel but thats probably harder overall because it requires understanding more parts
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Saphire aaronpk: tbh mostly me being stubborn and wondering if I can use something else
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sknebel heh
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Saphire Except I'll have to implement (or find something that gives easy way to use): general web API endpoint stuff, an identity and auth system, structured-ish data storage...
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barnaby what programming language/platform would you be interested in other than asp.net? pretty much everything which is used for web development is going to have libraries for those features
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barnaby and potentially even existing indieauth server implementations to adapt/use/learn from
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KatherineMoss[m] <Saphire> "I'm really tempted to just..." <- Please tell me you mean asp.net core, not the old Windows-only Asp.net? (Not that I have a problem with using Windows servers for web hosting, unlike some individuals I know.)
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KatherineMoss[m] For my webmention project, I'm just going to port the existing PHP implementation over to C# line of code by line of code. I can imagine it won't be fun,but it's one of the ways in which I can learn. PHP is object oriented,and so is C#... so.
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Saphire KatherineMoss[m]:absolutely
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Saphire I am on linux, I /can't/ use anything other than dotnet core
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Saphire ...and no I am not liking Mono that much
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Saphire Don't think they do aspnet either tho
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Saphire barnaby: low key tempted by Rust, but uhm
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Saphire ...I have no clue what to pick
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Saphire There's so.. so much
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KatherineMoss[m] Saphire: I'm just happy I'm not the only one supporting dotnet with Indieweb specs and sees it as an ill-represented technology. Look for netmention onGitHub; it's just a dinky little read me file at the moment with the beginnings of a PowerShell script,but then somebody on the C# community suggested that I use C# for it instead, so need to backtrack a bit.
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Saphire Ooh
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Saphire Hm
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Saphire ASP.NET Identity stuff is pretty nice... Entity Framework is outright spoiling me with how easy to use it is
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KatherineMoss[m] Saphire: I'm https://github.com/cambridgeport90, if you want to follow.
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Saphire ...like, I straight up feel painful about seeing how SQL is worked with without EF now >.>
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barnaby my usage of PHP is mostly motivated by the availability of cheap, easy hosting for it
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Saphire It's all so just.. bizzarely fragile?
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Saphire barnaby: meh, I have a 5$/mo VPS I can throw at whatever, plus another one..
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Saphire (and one of them has 4GB of ram so relatively "high" memory usage of ASP.NET at ~100-150MB is not too critical)
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barnaby I had a similarly cheap VPS for a while and got tired of the admin tax. I’d much rather have managed shared hosting for the vast majority of my web projects
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KatherineMoss[m] Note my coding skills suck; I'm still learning both C# and PowerShell, but I'm trying to learn by porting over implementations of stuff from other languages rather than using stupid "foo" examples. In fact, I hate the term foo used in programming; I don't think it really teaches the student real-world concepts; I also think that many programming examples focus way too much on business logic rather than fun either gaming or
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KatherineMoss[m] enthusiast concepts.
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KatherineMoss[m] Maybe I'm sounding too much like a scholar.
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Saphire barnaby: I am bumping into issues of "how do I deploy and update my custom apps" x.x
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GWG Making progress with my simple version 1 venue UI.... it will search for venues near coordinates and update a pulldown list. However, only local venues... haven't figured out how to integrate remote api venue search in
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Saphire Venue UI?
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GWG What is a venue?
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Loqi A venue is a named location or address/geo that is typically used for checkins https://indieweb.org/venue
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GWG I already have a system that when I post, it looks up my location and saves it in the post...this new functionality adds in naming repeat locations
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GWG I think I may have to tweak it over several revisions
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GWG I just want to get something I can use before November 8th, when I will be on the move
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vikanezrimaya what is ipfs
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Loqi IPFS is short for InterPlanetary File System, potentially a static site storage method using content based addressing https://indieweb.org/IPFS
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Saphire I have spent a few hours on this and done nothing so far x'D
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Saphire Also do many indieauth resolvers support the metadata thing?
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barnaby choice paralysis?
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sknebel I know that way to well
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barnaby I don‘t know which clients support it off the top of my head, I think support was recently added to the php client, which various projects use
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sknebel if I've used all the time I spent thinking about writing something on writing something, I'd be pretty far
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sknebel *if I'd used
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barnaby but it’s definitely the way to go for the future, it enables a lot of additional functionality and compatibility with other oauth systems, especially if you put the metadata endpoint at the oauth .well-known path
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barnaby there are plenty of criticisms to make about framework bloat, but one big advantage of them is shortcutting through choice paralysis. once you’ve chosen x framework, a lot of the decisions are made for you
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Saphire barnaby: more like juggling everything and being unsure of where to start
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Saphire I guess I could just slap it out as an SPA-ish thing...
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Saphire Even though "properly" you would be doing server side templating
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Saphire ...issue is that THAT makes it a nightmare to just, blah, integrate the stuff with Vue and aa
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Saphire Like yeah it would be easier to do server stuff also in JS just like my frontend generation stuff, but uhmmmm
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Saphire I am utterly unfamiliar with THAT
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Saphire ...also I just realized that the authorization endpoint is not really an "endpoint", it's just whatever page that will process the URL params and poke the auth server properly
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Zegnat It is an endpoint, in that the Client has no idea what happens when they send you there. If you want to show a page or not is up to you ;)
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Zegnat Though for most usual web implementations, yes, it will load an HTTP page in some form or another
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Zegnat s/HTTP/HTML/
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capjamesg What is a standard license for software documentation?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "standard license for software documentation" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "standard license for software documentation is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Saphire what is license
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Loqi license is terms under which you are allowed to (re)use a piece of work; in the context of the IndieWeb, for source code such as in open source projects, or content, like the IndieWeb wiki itself which has a specific Copyright https://indieweb.org/license
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capjamesg Thanks for trying loqi.
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Loqi you're welcome
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Saphire And there's no exact "standard"
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Saphire ...and I feel like this is the kind of topic that can result in a cafe- bar fight
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capjamesg :D
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capjamesg I don't know where to begin.
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capjamesg What licenses are usually used for software / why? (any articles on the subject would be appreciated)
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Zegnat If it is text, any CC licence?
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[Jamie_Tanna] Saphire no "popular" / commonly used clients to my knowledge use the indieauth-metadata endpoint right now, although a few things I've built for my own usage integrate with it
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capjamesg Any Zegnat?
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sknebel avoid NC
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Zegnat Not even sure NC matters for documentation, not super likely to be used in zines and other such things where NC is usually the painful part. But yeah, maybe not. I am just not sure how much it matters here.
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Zegnat FSF (of course) has opinions, so here is somewhat of a list of licences you might consider: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#FreeDocumentationLicenses
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sknebel oh right, ND is also bad for docs
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sknebel s really only -BY is left
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Zegnat It might be telling that they call out CC NC and ND as bad there, but do not highlight CC-BY or CC-0 as possible free licences to be used
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sknebel (or CC0, if you want to consider that a CC license, which it ususally isnt)
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jacky has anyone tried out https://www.nushell.sh/? it looks pretty cool for devs
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Zegnat Tried nushell at some point. Tried https://elv.sh/ as well. But always end up going back to the more known ones. Even with fish (my shell of choice) I am sometimes expected to source in configs and things that end up not working for me. It is a ba-/zsh world out there.
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capjamesg I like fish.
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capjamesg Both the food and the terminal.
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capjamesg *terminal shell
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slyduda[m] snarfed: quick q, we added client redirect functionality to discover, but as i'm looking at the bridgy code, i don't see how discover is related to bridgy publish. maybe i'm overlooking something?
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gRegor Saphire, barnaby, the indieauth-client-php lib has metadata support in progress, hoping to have a release in the next week or two.
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gRegor https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth-client-php if you want to reference it. See the open PR too for the latest code.
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Loqi [indieweb] indieauth-client-php: Sample implementation and helper methods for an IndieAuth client.
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gRegor I would say any new server or client should support metadata. fallback to the rel=authorization_endpoint, etc. is an option. The PHP client will fallback if it doesn't find metadata endpoint.
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barnaby nice!
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barnaby agreed, new implementations should endeavour to follow the spec, including the back-compat measures mentioned in it
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@simonw ↩️ Have you looked at OpenID and IndieAuth? (twitter.com/_/status/1583955178566189056)
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vikanezrimaya idea: a media endpoint which sends files to a local IPFS endpoint and returns IPFS URLs instead of usual URLs, making IPFS act as a distributed CDN. Availability is solved by pinning files to the local IPFS endpoint, ensuring they will be stored for all eternity (or at least as long as the node is up).
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aaronpk "for all eternity (or at least as long as the node is up)" is a great description of the availability of data on IPFS. it's not magic
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vikanezrimaya well, it's not like you can upload files to IPFS without actually having a node. So pinning files to a local node will be an easy task once the file is uploaded to the node.
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vikanezrimaya Actually doesn't Kubo (nee go-ipfs) pin all new uploads to the local node by default?...
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vikanezrimaya if it doesn't i'm gonna be sad
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vikanezrimaya Honestly I think that if someone's website goes down, the probability is high that their IPFS node will go down with it, and if the website itself isn't hosted on IPFS, nobody will need the images anyway
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