#dev 2023-03-01

2023-03-01 UTC
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[tantek] I mean I'd start with semantic markup first
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[tantek] which currently there is nothing in HTML for a footnote
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[tantek] or I should say, either side of a footnote
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[tantek] I agree that could be made more declarative
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[tantek] I don't put any special class names on my footnotes, should I?
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[tantek] would having them show up as part of my h-entry help anything? what would be the consuming code use-case?
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[KevinMarks] Right, that's what I was thinking. Yet there are lots of parallel implementations of popup notes, footnotes and sidenotes. It's a bit like a details/summary with the details being detachable, but that doesn't work with the nesting. Or maybe like a <ol><li> where the <li>part can appear elsewhere.
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[tantek] I mean I get that there's probably just enough publishing patterns to merit a markup pattern, by some of our old reasoning. However I have yet to hear a consuming code use-case so these days I'm not even bothering with a class name
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[KevinMarks] It feels more like a missing html element than a markup pattern. The consuming case is if you have a layout model that does that already. Looks like there is an epub pattern https://www.heliconbooks.com/?id=blog&postid=EPUB3Footnotes
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[KevinMarks] So the noteref and footnote attributes match your pattern broadly
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[tantek] annoying that that page is js;dr
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[KevinMarks] https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-ssv-11/#footnote
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[KevinMarks] https://help.apple.com/itc/booksassetguide/en.lproj/itccf8ecf5c8.html
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[KevinMarks] So epub uses <aside> for the contents, but you still need to track the links and ids yourself
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[tantek] footnote << Brainstorming: how to mark-up, prior example, EPUB3 https://www.heliconbooks.com/?id=blog&postid=EPUB3Footnotes ([[js;dr]]) <blockquote>For the link… <br/><a href="#n1" epub:type="noteref" >1</a><br/>…<p>Note the use of epub:type="noteref" this tells the reader that this link is not a standard link but a link to a note.</p><p>The note itself should be inside a new HTML5 semantic tag</p>…<aside id="n1" epub:type="foo
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[tantek] >This is a note<aside></blockquote>
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Loqi ok, I added "Brainstorming: how to mark-up, prior example, EPUB3 https://www.heliconbooks.com/?id=blog&postid=EPUB3Footnotes ([[js;dr]]) <blockquote>For the link… <br/><a href="#n1" epub:type="noteref" >1</a><br/>…<p>Note the use of epub:type="noteref" this tells the reader that this link is not a standard link but a link to a note.</p><p>The note itself should be inside a new HTML5 semantic tag</p>…<aside id="n1" epub:type="foo" to the "See Also" section of /footnote https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86835&oldid=86763
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[tantek] the Apple docs are better
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[tantek] footnote << ^ docs with consuming code example: https://help.apple.com/itc/booksassetguide/en.lproj/itccf8ecf5c8.html <blockquote>You use two elements to create a pop-up footnote: an anchor (<code><a></code>) element that triggers the popup and the <code><aside></code> element that contains the footnote text. Both elements have an <code>epub:type</code> attribute to identify their purpose: <code>epub:type="noteref"</code> to trigger
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[tantek] the popup and <code>epub:type="footnote"</code> to indicate the footnote’s text.</blockquote>
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Loqi ok, I added "^ docs with consuming code example: https://help.apple.com/itc/booksassetguide/en.lproj/itccf8ecf5c8.html <blockquote>You use two elements to create a pop-up footnote: an anchor (<code><a></code>) element that triggers the popup and the <code><aside></code> element that contains the footnote text. Both elements have an <code>epub:type</code> attribute to identify their purpose: <code>epub:type="noteref"</code> to trigger" to the "See Also" section of /footnote https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86837&oldid=86836
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[tantek] Thanks [KevinMarks], added: https://indieweb.org/footnote#How_to_markup_semantics
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[tantek] aaronpk, [KevinMarks] semi-dev related, glad I'm not worrying about supporting writing blog posts from the Moon in my software: https://www.nbcnews.com/science/space/moon-time-zone-rcna72459
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[tantek] also: https://gizmodo.com/standard-lunar-clock-needed-future-communications-1850163382
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[tantek] ^ for anyone wanting to write software to run on the Moon
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aaronpk i was just reading about that
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Websites that took all the right vitamins."
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> "Progressive Web Apps
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> - web.dev
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[tantek] Nah, it's not reality a useful (to users) concept and the vitamin metaphor is thin euphemism for plumbing
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[tantek] not really*
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> It is developer documentation, though.
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IWDiscordRelay <p​erson#1903> Thanks for the tips KevinMarks and Murray! I'll look into Grids.
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[tantek] capjamesg, even developer documentation should always be for a purpose, specific use-cases, not just implementing a particular spec for its own sake
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> James is thinking about standard avatar routes.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> It is technically redundant with microformats but interesting.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> (/avatar/ redirecting you to someone’s avatar)
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[tantek] unless it's either a blue-skinned version of your icon, or a 3D version a la Snowcrash, there's no need to call it an "avatar". just call it an icon
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@theshawe ↩️ hi @mappletons thanks for tweeting this. you're website is super inspiring. love seeing webmentions and the indieweb movement in thought. big up @joshm for helping hightlight your tweet into my feed! (twitter.com/_/status/1630841749537996800)
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[KevinMarks] Did we have a newer version of https://microformats.org/2014/06/20/microformats-org-turns-9-upgrade-to-microformats2 listing all the failed silo metacrap?
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sknebel https://gabekangas.com/blog/2023/02/owncast-v0.1.0-retrospective-frontend-web-rewrite/
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[schmarty] Oof
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[schmarty] (Oof for the owncast web UI rewrite into a huge React stack)
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aaronpk To be fair it was always a SPA before, now it's just built with a stack more familiar to people
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aaronpk Good write up
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[schmarty] React is good at being popular! And sometimes popular is needed.
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[jacky] (there's just so many other popular options like Preact, Svelte or even Vue)
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[jacky] but I'm not the maintainer
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[jacky] nor do I have a commit bit
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[tantek] Is it part of the "rewrite in React not for user benefit but for developer benefit to learn a more hireable job skill" pattern?
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aaronpk in this case it was specifically to get more developers to actually help build it
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[schmarty] The maintainer was using Preact earlier and, according to the post, not attracting contributors
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[tantek] That seems like a short-sighted way to get contributors, also the wrong focus? Like better to get contributors that want to help with the user functionality than appeal to plumbing
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aaronpk it's not like he wasn't trying before
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[tantek] What happens when the cargo cult moves on to the next JS framework du jour? Get on the framework rewrite hamster wheel?
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aaronpk again this was a relatively minor difference, going from Preact to React, not "let's rewrite everything in React"
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IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> yeah ^
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IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> I'm just griping tbh
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[tantek] The phrase "infinite hackability" is a bit of a red flag but other than that, I do sympathize with the "pick the technology that can stay out of the way and lets you focus on only the parts that make you distinct"
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[tantek] This both caught my eye and should be something you get with using HTML UI components so I’m a little confused by it: "The accessibility support was better because people who build UI components for a living are better at it than I am and I wasn’t reinventing the wheel at every turn."
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aaronpk I am also curious about that, but you should have seen some of the github issues, people were being really mean
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aaronpk for some reason a lot of the accessibility related issues were coming in with just an inappropriate amount of anger
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[schmarty] my understanding is that using native HTML UI is far from the first thing React (and similar) frameworks teach. most from-scratch stuff is going to be div-soup in terms of markup. Beyond labeling there tends to be a lot of show/hide and focus-related behavior that requires extra layers of understanding and handling.
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[tantek] And this is why I choose to work on OpenUI instead of spending one minute learning React. We have to solve those things at the platform level, not depend on any framework for them
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aaronpk yeah this is definitely a fair criticism of react
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aaronpk what is OpenUI?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "OpenUI" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "OpenUI is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] In the mean time yes I’m of the belief that *web* sites should "just" use HTML UI components for all the built-in accessibility etc and stop prioritizing trying to make things look as "pretty" as "native"
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[schmarty] i am griping because owncast felt _almost_ in a state where i'd want to use it (i really want to be able to shut off or reduce the server usage when the stream is offline), but the knowledge that there's a big React stack waiting if i want to customize is something i am prejudiced against. :}
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[tantek] Wow there's no Wikipedia page on OpenUI
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[schmarty] tantek: i don't believe the "pretty" was the main goal so much as streaming video putting the emphasis on _Single-Page_ in SPA.
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[tantek] Aaronpk, https://open-ui.org/
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[schmarty] (which is why the Islands Architecture doesn't go far enough, and why we should return to framesets. in this talk I will-)
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aaronpk oh wow, I didn't know this was a thing
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[tantek] It’s not directly related to IndieWeb so I'm not defining it here
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[tantek] It does deserve a Wikipedia page though
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[tantek] And it's one of the nicest W3C CGs I've ever worked with. Truly wonderful mix of of web developers, dev advocates, and browser folks
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aaronpk well this will be cool once it can be used!
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aaronpk maybe this will finally kill the div soup
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[tantek] Or at least a good chunk of it
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aaronpk i hope people from google are there. you should see the mess of divs and custom elements that make up youtube
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[tantek] People from Google are very active there
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[tantek] It makes sense that people that feel the pain want to fix the problem
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@TonyVlcek #Webmention: Nice example of how a very simple protocol can be used to do cool things. Here's an article with more details: https://nicolas-hoizey.com/articles/2017/07/27/so-long-disqus-hello-webmentions/#how-does-it-work-on-this-site When I get around to revising @SnoofaSoftware's blog, this will definitely get pulled out of my back pocket. (twitter.com/_/status/1630982864811458561)
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@SanSYS ↩️ Благодаря этому узнал, что такое web mentions и индивеб: "Webmention is a simple way to notify any URL when you mention it on your site" https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#h-abstract (twitter.com/_/status/1631001689854541847)
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[tantek] lol "h-abstract" 😂
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aaronpk Lol
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[pfefferle] [tantek] https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-activitypub/issues?q=is%3Aissue+.well-known
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[pfefferle] And https://wordpress.org/search/.well-known+intext%3A%22Plugin%3A+ActivityPub%22/
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> [ender] I'll maybe release Trackback support in IndieWeb Utils in the next week.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> [ender] https://github.com/capjamesg/indieweb-utils/pull/90
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Loqi [preview] [capjamesg] #90 Add Trackback support
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Does anyone have any feature requests for IndieWeb Utils?
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Should profile photo discovery be in there?
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[snarfed] remind me, Indieweb Utils and mf2util overlap in goals, and that's ok because mf2util isn't maintained and Indieweb Utils is?
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> IndieWeb Utils has broader scope than mf2util.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> It isn't exclusively for mf2 tasks, and even mf2 tasks often have a lot of helper work that goes on (endpoint discovery, validation, etc.).
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> (Where "validation" refers to things like URL canonicalization, checking status codes from responses, etc. It doesn't do mf2 validation to be clear.)
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[snarfed] 👍
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[tantek] capjamgesg, perhaps ask barnabywalters what the expected scope is of mf2util
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[tantek] I'd guess there's a bunch of opportunity there for collab
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> [barnaby]