#dev 2023-04-11

2023-04-11 UTC
petermolnar, mouse[d], bterry, IWDiscordRelay, gxt__ and [timothy_chambe] joined the channel
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[tantek] do people have requests for pages / specs that need more diagrams to better understand them / their interactions?
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[tantek] I have a feeling I'll be making some diagrams next weeek
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[tantek] well here goes nothing
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[tantek] interesting, my Falcon instance is still able to publish
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bkil [tantek] aaronpk [snarfed] [KevinMarks] capjamesg: https://indieweb.org/Web_of_trust And I agree that the only proper way to handle your follows is by using out of band methods. I.e., the same way you have already met the person - in person business card, domain on t-shirt, etc. I strongly discourage anybody to "search" for people using global services and assume they are who you think they are.
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bkil And also, I've shared details at other places about the only search, discovery and subjective review solution there is that scales: based on your circles and your transitive social graph by diminishing weighing and manual ranking of results. There is no other way to eliminate spam and provide honest incentives for authenticity.
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bkil [tantek]: I consider your wiki rephrasing of the FAQ an improvement overall. I would still have a few nitpicks, though. You can already find a ridiculous number of third party matrix clients & servers already: https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now/#servers I get your feeling about the vibe of being a monoculture, though (building and advertising their system from $60M over a decade, etc).
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bkil However, I don't quite get how such a statement applies to The Fediverse, that you again snarkingly refer to by "Mastodon and ActivityPub". Just to recap, The Fediverse (and The Federation, while those terms were accounted separately) started in 2008 by Laconica (OpenMicroBlogging). A bunch of protocol improvements were rolled out over the dozens of servers that were considered part of The Fediverse over the decades. The last and most popular one as of 2023 is
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bkil ActivityPub, but some others are also well and alive and still supported by multi-protocol servers pretty nicely (e.g., Friendica, Hubzilla). Mastodon has been implementing features from some of its competitors in a very sluggish manner, so I wouldn't even call it a leading implementation in this sense.
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bkil Just out of curiosity, could you perhaps elaborate on the reasoning behind your opinion that "email & xmpp as effectively failures in federation (for different reasons)"? Or for leaving out other established federated protocols.
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@fuba ↩️ websub/pubsubhubbub とか pingback/webmention とかで twitter やるかっつーとやんないので、ブログとフィードリーダではない、ないかというと抽象化の具合次第なんだけど、興味がないほど抽象度は上がっていく、そしていまブログとフィードリーダだと言い切る勇気はとくにない (twitter.com/_/status/1645768088032522240)
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@Nezteb ↩️ This reminds me of https://indieauth.net/! #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/1645778115191525377)
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[tantek] bkil thanks for the citation of more matrix server software, good to know it's improved since the last time I checked.
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[tantek] For the others you mention, they're basically deadends at this point (no growth, shrinking usage) since Mastodon/AP has taken over developer attention.
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[tantek] I mean are you implementing or have you implemented interop with Friendica or Hubzilla on your own site?
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[tantek] Email and xmpp failure summaries are in the FAQ. It's not really a priority to spend more time on that because no one here is adding support (are you on your own server?) but if you like check out their Wikipedia articles for more
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[tantek] What other "established" protocols have you implemented on your personal site? If it doesn't pass that bar of active support and implementability on personal sites then it's not really established or expected to be in terms of the IndieWeb
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[tantek] Again, Wikipedia already documents a lot of such protocol history and there's no need to replicate that on the IndieWeb wiki or argue it unless you're personally implementing it on your own site.
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[tantek] Otherwise, it's theoretical handwaving and better suited for #indieweb-chat than #indieweb-dev, for things you're not actually developing for your own site
IWSlackGateway, [KevinMarks], gRegor, nertzy, [tantek], [schmarty], [chrisbergr], [jacky] and [marksuth] joined the channel
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bkil RE: https://indieweb.org/js;dr I browse without JavaScript and whenever a site seems empty, I investigate and either write UserCSS or UserJS to fix it (or at least to reduce the number of trackers required to open it). Is anyone interested?
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