#dev 2023-05-15

2023-05-15 UTC
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[tantek] Nevermind followship recommendation, I want a fellowship recommendation that suggests a small group you should follow if you need to accomplish a very difficult task.
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capjamesg Can you elaborate [tantek]?
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[KevinMarks] It's a Lord of the Rings reference
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[KevinMarks] [capjamesg] OK, big-ass PR. moving the templates to nunjucks made them quite a lot smaller; they should be easier to iterate on now.
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[tantek] What is nunjucks
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Loqi nunjucks is a templating language for JavaScript https://indieweb.org/nunjucks
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[KevinMarks] the posts not having useful URLs in is annoying. You pass in a pot url like "https://staging.bsky.app/profile/kevinmarks.com/post/3jvmeekwoll2b" and get one out like 'at://did:plc:kn4dz4f67maytvsbcnbry36k/app.bsky.feed.post/3jvmeekwoll2b'
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Loqi [preview] [Kevin Marks] So, 14 years ago, when twitter was so new that it had just introduced retweets, a bunch of us talked about how to think about social on the web at Web2 expo NYC. This was me on vocabularies https://youtu.be/qYsMtroVLeA
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[KevinMarks] I suppose I need a macro for that to recompose them
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[KevinMarks] hm, expanding youtube could be good for this too
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[tantek] petermolnar, the skepticism about Bkuesky is fair, and apt. Until multiple servers are up & running and things "just work" across servers, you're right it's more like XMPP
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petermolnar what
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petermolnar no, xmpp is actually up, running, federated, and working
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petermolnar I was referring to the weight of protocols on matrix vs xmpp
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[tantek] Ohhhh ok. Makes sense. I thought you were talking about XMPP being setup on a few large servers that then turned it off later so it because useless.
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[tantek] Became* useless
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[snarfed] [KevinMarks] agreed on the at:// vs https:// URLs annoyance. fortunately converting at => https is trivial since http://staging.bsky.app URLS support dids, eg https://staging.bsky.app/profile/did:plc:kn4dz4f67maytvsbcnbry36k/post/3jvmeekwoll2b for the one you posted
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[KevinMarks] Interesting. I reverse engineered it from the post data already though
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[KevinMarks] `{% macro post_url(p) -%}`
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[KevinMarks] `{%- endmacro %}`
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[KevinMarks] `https://staging.bsky.app/profile/{{p.author.handle}}/post/{{p.uri%7Clast_path}}`
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[snarfed] oh yeah definitely use handle if you have it available, you just may not always
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[KevinMarks] untangling all the different structures in the bsky API is a bit odd - they seem to not have a consistent encapsulation of posts
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[snarfed] right, there are many that overlap
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petermolnar re: XMPP - it is actually quite happy without the "big" players, there are small/medium servers running it, particularly in Germany. If anyone's interested https://xmpp.org/2023/05/the-xmpp-newsletter-april-2023/ is the latest state.
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petermolnar the most beautiful recent thing was this: https://unifiedpush.org/ which Conversations, an Android XMPP client can fully utilize, and Element, the flagship Matrix app can piggyback on it... essentially using XMPP for notifications.
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petermolnar here's a bit more about unifiedpush: https://f-droid.org/2022/12/18/unifiedpush.html
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[snarfed] [KevinMarks] [capjamesg]I've been deep in mapping app.bsky.* to/from other formats recently, happy to compare notes if you want. https://granary.io/?site=bluesky#logins , https://github.com/snarfed/granary/blob/main/granary/bluesky.py
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[snarfed] petermolnar interestingly the creator of XMPP, Jeremie Miller, is one of the three Bluesky board members
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[KevinMarks] You're doing it properly with lexicons, unlike my 'whats in this nested json thingy?' approach
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[snarfed] your way is quick and works! rough consensus and running code 😎
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[KevinMarks] I need to add recordWithMedia support
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[snarfed] yeah that seems so awkward. why the union and then a separate type if you have both? just make both fields optional in the main type, right? 🤷
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petermolnar [snarfed]: heh, then my analogy is not even that much off :D
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[snarfed] maybe! I don't know much about either matrix or xmpp, other than streaming XML :zany_face:, but maybe
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[KevinMarks] that embeddings are a union of lists of consistent things rather than a list of varying things is a bit odd
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[KevinMarks] also that an embedded post is not quote the same as a post
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[tantek] petermolnar, feel free to add the newsletter to /XMPP
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[tantek] it looked like a good source of updates
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[KevinMarks] I'm getting a slight feel of java in the bsky lexicons, where arbitrarily nesting things is hard to do, so you define a bunch of things that are almost but not quite the same. Which I suppose is the complement of the 'you can arbitrarily nest things in microformats' problem we hit when trying to write things like xray
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[snarfed] hah yeah. this is the overly typed/specified path, vs the not quite typed/specified enough of AS1/2 and mf2
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[KevinMarks] Yay nested things work now https://bsky.link/?show_thread=on&url=https://bsky.app/profile/acab.dad/post/3jvrt6ifakc2j
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petermolnar nested things, what could possibly go wrong, oh, right, billion laughs attack
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[KevinMarks] They have narrow nesting - you can have a photo inside a post inside a post, but not 3 posts deep
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[tantek] shallow 🙂
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[tantek] since nesting is about depth
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Billion laughs petermolnar?
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[tantek] has anyone played with https://github.com/elk-zone ? I'm wondering since it seems to be early if they'd also be receptive to adding Micropub support (and IndieAuth sign-in flow)
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petermolnar capjamesg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion_laughs_attack
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petermolnar XML is nearly as beautiful as YAML
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capjamesg Why is YAML so prevalent in devops?
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capjamesg Docker, GitHub Actions, Azure Pipelines
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[tantek] because XML is horrible to read
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[tantek] same reason Markdown is often preferred to HTML
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petermolnar YAML is even worse imo
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petermolnar the more complex it gets the easier to lose track of where you are
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petermolnar plus someone wanted to make something "cool" when XML fell out of favour
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petermolnar it's worth noting that people made horrible things with XML, see SOAP
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aaronpk SOAP--
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Loqi SOAP has -1 karma over the last year
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aaronpk XML--
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Loqi XML has -2 karma over the last year
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petermolnar YAML--
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Loqi YAML has -1 karma over the last year
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petermolnar I can do this all day :D
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vladimyr capjamesg: fyi mf2.link seems down, returns 502
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capjamesg What was SOAP?
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Loqi SOAP is Spectacularly Overblown Architectural Posturing see WS-Deathstar https://indieweb.org/SOAP
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capjamesg Well that answers that.
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capjamesg [KevinMarks] got a 502 on bsky.link.
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capjamesg Error: Error: No default engine was specified and no extension was provided.
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capjamesg at /home/james/bsky-link-preview/app.js:264:13
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[KevinMarks] Hmm, I may have to recheck the error stuff
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[KevinMarks] What did you pass it?
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I don’t have that logged.
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[KevinMarks] ah I didn't fix the error logging if you go to /feed without a url
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[KevinMarks] done. A better fix would be a form on the feed page
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capjamesg Fix deployed.
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capjamesg The Bluesky client is open source: https://github.com/bluesky-social/social-app
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[snarfed] 🎉
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capjamesg MIT licensed.
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[tantek] time to add IndieAuth+Micropub? or at least file issues?
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[tantek] [snarfed] Mastodon the software may be "European", however ActivityPub was largely developed in the US, with a lot of input from folks in Europe and other places in our W3C meetings. Whereas AT Protocol was presumably developed pretty much by a US team.
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capjamesg Is there an impact of that?
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[snarfed] Ben was generalizing about philosophies, not the people/teams themselves
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[tantek] then more the software vs the protocol
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[tantek] I don't really see AP as any more "community" than AT
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[snarfed] [tantek] I think it is, due to both culture and functionality. https://werd.io/2023/the-fediverse-and-the-at-protocol and https://snarfed.org/2023-05-04_50157 both discus more
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[tantek] [snarfed] Mastodon and/or "fediverse" was already "a thing" long before AP, which makes this a weird comparison
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[tantek] AP was a cleaner way to swap out more of OStatus
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[tantek] the culture of Mastodon/fediverse was already roughly formed at that point
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[tantek] this is why I don't think AP has a particular "culture" per se or any "community". it was absorbed into the existing Masto/fedi culture/community
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[snarfed] sure. we weren't trying to draw fine distinctions, I'll happily concede that we were conflating AP and the fediverse
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[snarfed] although my point(s) are pretty directly about AP implementations and that technical ecosystem in practice right now, not (just) culture
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gRegor Interesting https://mastodon.social/@danielpunkass/110374963626675583
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