#dev 2023-06-27
2023-06-27 UTC
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# 
Soni anyone wanna talk about activitypub instance poisoning?
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# [timothy_chambe] OK sure.
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# [snarfed] we've been talking a lot about the fediverse and activitypub here, I wonder if/when we should start moving some of those conversations to #fediverse-devs:http://matrix.org , at least if they're not indieweb relevant?
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# Soni we should do instance poisoning to keep rent low
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# 
[KevinMarks] architecture astronomy << https://grugbrain.dev/
# 
Loqi ok, I added "https://grugbrain.dev/" to the "See Also" section of /architecture_astronomy https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=88378&oldid=87263
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[schmarty] grugbrain++
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# Loqi Text-first design refers to the practice of designing information and UIs so they are readable/usable/actionable at least as basic plain text https://indieweb.org/text_first_design
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# Soni instance poisoning is just serving different things to different instances
# Soni this could be a 403 or it could be something more creative (perhaps also boostable) and it's an intended part of the activitypub protocol
# Soni eh, "loud blocking" isn't malicious
# Soni sometimes you just need a better solution to a meta problem
# Soni yes, admins can gaslight their users, but we don't see how AP can fix that without true multihoming
# Soni (but that can be added on later)
# Soni also, this isn't even actually required for gaslighting your users
# Soni anyway it'd be nice if someone implemented "loud blocking" as an admin feature
# Soni "loud defederation"
# Soni we guess what we want is "megaphone defederation" then
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# Soni what happens when you quiet quit facebook? does it solve anything? (the answer is no)
# Soni anyway, multihoming is the general solution to "instances defederating eachother and your friends are there"
# Soni everyone loves to complain about lack of multihoming but nobody wants to have multihoming for some reason
# Soni or uh
# Soni ppl love to complain about defederation we guess
# Soni but they don't want a solution that works for everyone for some reason
# Soni like, we genuinely don't know how to show ppl that multihoming would largely solve defederation for them
# Soni tbh we get frustrated too easily
# Soni tbh ppl complaining about stuff that we see as "solved" makes us frustrated
# Soni tbh it's way more likely that they just haven't heard of the solution than that they don't want it
# Soni we guess we have a problem :<
# Soni we feel like mastodon often doesn't let you own your data. the server owns it.
# Soni but eh, w/e we guess
# 
[tantek] or rather "neighborhood Chad": https://tantek.com/2023/001/t1/own-your-notes
# Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] I am once again asking you to own your notes, rather than tweeting them into Big Chad’s garage.
Maybe you left the big garage and now toot in your neighborhood Chad’s garage. It’s still someone else’s garage. https://xkcd.com/1150 #IndieWeb
...
# [tantek] "little Chad" reference: https://tantek.com/2023/022/t2/own-your-notes-domain-migration
# Soni yeah, well, multihoming largely solves this
# Soni (if you make backups)
# Soni multihoming works fine in TCP and I2P
# Soni eh, it's just key management
# Soni you don't have to do it "properly", you don't have to follow cryptography best practices to get effective results
# Soni what is ipfs if not multihoming at scale
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ipfs if not multihoming at scale" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "ipfs if not multihoming at scale is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Soni ipfs is immutable, which makes everyone sad
# Soni anyway, we know how much key management sucks, that's why we don't bother
# Soni pgp? we just make a new key every time we have to use it
# Soni no, you just had to solve hosting and sysadmin
# Soni we feel like "bass-ackwards key management" is easier than "hosting and sysadmin"
# Soni we're working on it
# Soni we need to solve a different problem first
# [tantek] I have solved the user-level problems, with my site http://tantek.com — so until someone steps up and says here is my site (domain) that solves the user-level problems, I'm going to remain skeptical
# Soni (well... we don't *need* to. but we wanna solve it first, because it'll make things easier for us.)
# Soni (but it's a development thing, so nobody really cares about it)
# Soni yes, so we hide the key management entirely
# Soni yes, self-hosted IRC is not indieweb
# Soni they're fuzzy boundaries ofc
# Soni we can make them fuzzier by pushing at them
# Soni anyway we're mostly here for desearch
# Soni and something about web-based feed readers
# Soni are feeds indieweb?
# Loqi A feed is a dynamic set of posts, typically listed in reverse-chronological order, often only the most recent (like 10), published on the IndieWeb as separate feed files and on homepages with h-feed markup https://indieweb.org/feed
# Loqi A social reader is a modern interactive reader that allows you to directly respond to posts (with a like, comment, etc) right there inline with posts as you read them (as people do in social media), in contrast to legacy feed readers which were one-way read-only experiences and provided no mechanisms to interact with or respond to posts https://indieweb.org/social_reader
# Soni https://soniex2.autistic.space/ ofc!
# Soni we'd love to have an atom button you can actually use
# Soni maybe we can get there in our lifetime
# Soni like it prompts for a domain name and treats it like a web-based feed reader
# Loqi A web action is the interface and user experience of taking a specific discrete action, across the web, from one site to another site or application, like a cross-site follow button, or a reply button on a post, which when activated, allows you to reply using your own site instead of the site you are viewing https://indieweb.org/webaction
# Soni :shrug:
# Soni just give us /.well-known/protocol-handler?target=%s
# Soni we'd also like to have proper search and share it with our friends
# Soni (and only our friends)
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# Soni yeah we know y'all hate well-known but we have big plans with it that we can't talk about
# Soni but hey, mastodon wants something like this, so we might aswell make it fit our needs
# Loqi 👃 follow your nose is an intentional principle for designing discovery algorithms that start with the specific URL you want to discover things about, retrieving headers or contents, and parsing for particular link rel values to URLs to the desired information, in contrast to the “well-known” approach of looking outside the specific URL, like using only its domain and a hardcoded path https://indieweb.org/follow_your_nose
# Soni so we should shove it in dns then
# [snarfed] jamesg++ for pinging SWICG! https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swicg/2023Jun/0019.html
# [KevinMarks] grrr. today's yakshaving is `import` versus `require` in node. Because a package I use has switched to ESM I now need to change everything else to it too.
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# [KevinMarks] I think this is now tomorrow's yakshaving.
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# [KevinMarks] Definitely at the point where I want to write code in something other than node for my next project
# [tantek] capjamesg, I have expanded on some email POSSE brainstorming here based on existing practice, interested in your feedback! https://indieweb.org/email#POSSE_techniques
# capjamesg Will review later today (Wednesday).
# [KevinMarks] I think I want a language that is working with rather than against the idea of branching call graphs and completing them all. Maybe I need to read up on elixir
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[jacky] interesting project as I'm looking for means of protecting SSG sites https://github.com/netlify/gotrue
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