#dev 2023-09-22
2023-09-22 UTC
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btrem I have a small static website for a family member that is currently on a shared hosting service, along with email. The family member in question is unhappy with the email service, and wants to move. I'm strongly inclined to move email and web to separate services. For the web, either Amazon Web Services or Netlify.
# btrem I have some experience with AWS, and find it to be tedious to set up and update. Is Netlify any better? I was on the faq/quick setup page and it seems pretty straightforward setting it up and connecting to GitHub, which would be easy since her site is already in a GH repo. Thoughts?
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[KevinMarks] Is github pages not usable? I found Netlify pretty easy to run a static site which is node+express and everything in a statically served directory.
# [KevinMarks] Have a look at https://github.com/indieweb/blank-gh-site for how to do it with github pages
# [KevinMarks] My static node setup https://github.com/kevinmarks/kevin-marks.com
# [KevinMarks] I should probably update node versions as 10 has been deprecated for a while
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# merole Im trying to build a web app with svelte and sveltekit. Need a good db backend, currently im using pocketbase, will it be safe to use it in production? Any1 with any experience?
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[Murray] @btrem is a long-time Netlify user 👋 it's certainly extremely easy to set up and use, UX is one of its strong points. Also free for small sites (can't remember what AWS is like). I'd strongly recommend it as a service 🙂 There are also competitors (with varying feature overlap) like Vercel and Cloud Cannon if there's anything you dislike about Netlify specifically
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# [KevinMarks] I was using Heroku for my static node site, and when their github integration broke I switched to netlify in about 30 minutes, it is handy.
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[schmarty] aaronpk: another approach is to add extra syndication buttons/checkboxes everywhere 😄
# [schmarty] from my perspective, because syndication targets are specified in the micropub standard both in terms of what is available, and `mp-syndicate-to`, i lean towards having the micropub clients be "in charge" of this.
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aaronpk one way to flip this around is to make the micropub client smarter, where the micropub client can pre-fetch the post for reply context (which is also good UX!), at which point it can check the syndication boxes for activitypub if it knows which of those in the syndication options is the right one to check
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# [schmarty] i agree that cluttering up the UI with syndication options all the time doesn't feel right. but if the client wants to try and figure out ahead of time, sure! i'd even take an option that i configure per-channel in monocle.
# [schmarty] i hadn't considered that this would be specifically around some kind of activitypub-specific detection or determination.
# [schmarty] aaronpk: i put syndicate-to links in the HTML for the post and my webmention sender takes it from there.
# [schmarty] right. which is really easy if they're in micropub payload as mp-syndicate-to like quill does 😄
# [schmarty] with my current architecture it would be awkward. my micropub endpoint saves what it gets and kicks off a build. the first time my site learns anything about a given URL is when i fetch reply context data (i just run it through xray)
# [schmarty] the publishing step isn't currently allowed to rewrite things about posts, just add extra information, so i'd need to do that and update my templates to look in that new place.
# [schmarty] having any of these parts know whether a post "is activitypub" is interesting. i don't think quill's reply interface link preview currently checks to see if a page supports webmentions?
# [schmarty] oho, yeah, that's interesting!
# [schmarty] i'm still strongly considering adding per-channel syndication options for micropub likes and replies created via monocle 😄
# [schmarty] is there a standard way of detecting whether a post "is activitypub"? i've seen discussions come through here that made it seem tricky conneg--
# [schmarty] snarfed++ letting bridge fed sort it all out has certainly occurred to me, haha
# [schmarty] "why not authenticate activitypub S2S with passkeys?" 😈
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[tantek] can we go back to enhancing Micropub (whether by protocol, extension, convention) to handle server indication of "this post can federate to AP/BF etc.", client detection of that, client optional offering UI to opt-in for such federation (like syndication), then client indication to the server that "this post should federate to AP/BF etc." and letting the server handle it?
# [schmarty] hahaha _i_ know they're not equivalent but i bet a blog post suggesting it could trend on the orange site
# [schmarty] aaronpk: it's appropriate
# [schmarty] back on topic: WP Synd Links is a good example that i haven't looked at in a while!
# 
Loqi 🗺🐉 Here be dragons is in general a warning of potential dangers or dangerous areas, originally on physical maps, on the IndieWeb it refers to particularly problematic silos that usually formed in response to entire sets of abusive behaviors and accounts being banned from Twitter https://indieweb.org/dragons
# [schmarty] (staying on topiccccc-) especially for things like syndication rules i tend to shy away from pushing logic "into my site". when i have to have a branching internal model of what it will "do for me" when i publish something, i tend to trust it less and therefore use it less.
# [schmarty] are there any video demos or screenshots of how syndication links for WP works as a user? i don't have a WP site handy to set this up on to try out the user experience 😅
# [schmarty] a different kind of nascar problem
# [schmarty] what is NASCAR?
# Loqi The NASCAR problem is when there is a jumble of branding icons in a user interface, like 3rd party proprietary sign-in/login options (instead of IndieAuth) or silo-specific sharing buttons (instead of web actions) on websites, that is visually busy and often noisy, distracting, and overwhelming https://indieweb.org/nascar
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[aciccarello] Lots of activity this morning. But I wanted to call out this new developer survey available about HTML. Microformats gets a mention https://survey.devographics.com/en-US/survey/state-of-html/2023
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "client" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "client is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Loqi Server or web server refers to the hardware and/or software that hosts the content of a web site https://indieweb.org/server
# Loqi app is a top level domain that requires HTTPS and was opened to limited registration on 2018-05-01, with availability to the general public on 2018-05-08 https://indieweb.org/.app
# [aciccarello] On the content section of the survey there's a question about what you've used to make HTML machine readable. Lists <time>, <data>, microdata, microformats, RDFa, and JSON-LD
# [KevinMarks] You will notice that I ignored an httprange14 snipe about rel=me
# [KevinMarks] Somewhere in the meeting discussion. Maybe the chat?
# [KevinMarks] does jitsi save the chat logs?
# [KevinMarks] on the can vs should point about syndication - does the micropub response indicate the default state of the syndicate checkbox to the client? Or is that too subtle?
# capjamesg I tried to log points from Jitsi.
# [KevinMarks] https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Thurber_Carnival/hpeCEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=thurber+here+lies+miss+groby&pg=PT68&printsec=frontcover has it (the new yorker has a 1942 permalink but it's paywalled) https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1942/03/21/here-lies-miss-groby
# [tantek] this survey that is: https://survey.devographics.com/en-US/survey/state-of-html/2023 ([KevinMarks] did you answer it?)
# [tantek] On page 7 of the survey "Other Tools & Features", there's both a question on "Which of these static or dynamic site generators do you regularly use?" with [x] checkbox items for: Astro, Eleventy, Gatsby, Hugo, Jekyll, Next.js, Nuxt, Other… — and you can choose "Other..." and enter your own software
# [KevinMarks] BBEdit
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# [schmarty] ⬇ Negative experience ✔
# [schmarty] love it
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# btrem I'm pretty sure I'm the only person who likes (or, more accurately, liked) microdata.
# btrem aaronpk: is there a post that that image goes with?
# btrem (I tried to hack the media url to get to a post, but failed. So sorry about the 10ish 404 errors I just generated.)
# capjamesg Hahah
# btrem Ah, got it.
# btrem I was curious about your url scheme for images that are connected to a post. I have a scheme for my site. Took me while to arrive at it. It works, but I'm curious about other schemes that might be better than mine.
# [schmarty] my image server is all content-addressed which is great for deduplication but is a ridiculous bucket of undifferentiated files without external data (like my site's HTML)
# capjamesg Content addressed?
# btrem aaronpk: That scheme would be logical, but I think a bit hard to backup. I have my raw images (before resizing/converting) all in one directory that I can easily backup. Outside of the posts, which are in a git repo.
# btrem I just starting taking the survey. (I logged into #dev after it was posted, hence my confusion about the image.) So far, there are more things I've never heard of than things I have. Like what is <selectlist>? Is it a <select> element that is more easily styled? That'd be an odd thing to introduce to html.
# btrem aaronpk: I don't back up the posts. Those are in a git repo, which is backed up to github. So it's only the images (and other media) that I need to backup.
# btrem Ah, I was warned not to put digital files in a git repo, so I set it up without them. I've since read posts arguing that it's fine to include e.g. images in a repo. But I was already down a different path.
# AramZS Someone told you not to put digital files in a git repo? What an odd piece of advice to give.
# AramZS Did they give a reason?
# AramZS I assumed media files yeah
# AramZS I mean, even that is more conservative than I. What is Git LFS for if not for handling repos with large files.
# AramZS yeah
# [schmarty] git LFS is why i moved to a separate dedicated media server, hahaa
# Loqi Git Large File Storage (LFS) replaces large files such as audio samples, videos, datasets, and graphics with text pointers inside Git, while storing the file contents on a remote server https://indieweb.org/git_lfs
# btrem Yes digital files. Not sure what constitutes large.
# btrem I know about LFS, but I've never used it, and don't really know how it works.
# btrem The warnings I got were that binary files can make pull/push/etc. slower.
# btrem I should point out that I was new to git when I read that advice.
# btrem gRegor: no, apparently not.
# btrem Because <datalist> is listed separately.
# btrem Loqi is so weird sometimes. What was the +1 for? hahaha
# btrem me too, Loqi. Me too.
# btrem :-D
# AramZS Oh good call, me too
# capjamesg I like that arrangement of words.
# capjamesg “I should get more coffee.”
# btrem aaronpk: yeah, that's what I learned after the fact. Having them in the repo would make the site more atomic and portable. But as I said, I was already down a path when I read the countervailing point re: digital files in a repo.
# capjamesg I have taught you well, Loqi.
# [schmarty] i had weird experiences with git LFS. even now that it's more well supported by git hosts and git client versions. it requires extra setup when creating and cloning repos, for example. ultimately i learned that under the hood Git LFS works a lot like a content-addressable remote filesystem, and that i could use a micropub media server in the same way, so i just skipped to the end. :}
# btrem lol @ gRegor and jamesg.
# [schmarty] Loqi: aaronpk prompting or just that clever?
# [schmarty] ;}
# btrem I'm not going to intentionally try to game Loqi, because that would just be noise. But I am curious what could be done. ;-)
# btrem Not taking advantage of Loqi. Just curious what prompts her to interject. Like above, she said "+1" and I had no idea why until someone explained it.
# btrem (I assume Loqi is a she, for absolutely no reason at all.)
# Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot/digital therapist present in the IndieWeb discussion channels https://indieweb.org/User:Loqi.me
# capjamesg What is the significance of that number?
# capjamesg It’s no 0118999881999119725… 3.
# capjamesg Loqi!
# btrem That's a very informative User page. :)
# btrem re: the survey. I'm on the "which methods have you used to manipulate the DOM?" I checked jquery, but I can't decide if I should check "negative experience." I doubt I'll ever use jquery again, because the things I need can be done in plain js. But for the brief period that I used it, it wasn't negative.
# AramZS Honestly, I never got the jQuery hate. It was perfectly fine at doing what I needed it to do - what it was designed to do.
# AramZS It's a smooth dream compared to React
# [KevinMarks] jQuery was so good it pretty much all got built into the browser API with slightly less opaque names
# AramZS ^
# [KevinMarks] It also did a lot of papering over browser variations for you when that was a big deal.
# [KevinMarks] https://dev.to/tigt/why-not-react-2f8l is very interesting, especially the bit that starts “Code struggles to escape why it was created. *You can often trace the latest version’s strengths and weaknesses all the way back to the goals of the original authors”*
# AramZS I will note that there was a seriously long period where jQuery was famously disliked in a bunch of dev circles. People wrote pages and pages about how terrible it was.
# AramZS I think really the problem is there are a lot of people who don't understand Javascript and would prefer not to have to *really* learn it.
# btrem I didn't check "negative" for jquery. I only *thought* about it because I don't think I'll ever use it again, but that's because, as [KevinMarks] said, it got written into javascript. So I no longer need it.
# btrem And with that, I have completed the survey.
# btrem And am surprised at the sheer number of features that I've never heard of. But then, my paying job is server/bartender, not web dev. So there's that.
# btrem [KevinMarks]: I read that post yesterday. Seems like the author knows what he's talking about, but I've never used React, so it's hard for me to tell. (Never used Vue either, nor next.js, nor....)
# [KevinMarks] I'm interested in the Marko multiple flush idea, and feels like it would suit a grid layout.
# [KevinMarks] they have this thing where they flush placeholders and js that copies them up, but with grid your document order is independent of your display order, so you don't need to do that.
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